SugarCane: I understand your point, but like I said the culture here is different. The difference between marriages and living together is small, getting a divorce is very easy. Our life together has been very much like a marriage. Here marriages are not really about God or commitment, more about having a fine party and getting the legal benefits; here it is something superficial people do. Europe is more liberal and secular and social pressure surrounding infidelity is smaller. A majority of people seem to accept the idea that people are naturally polygamous and whatever happens, happens, and things are beyond our control. Maybe being "a wife" would have made things even worse for WW, since both of our parents' marriages ended in a divorce and we have a lot of emotional baggage about what it means to be "a wife and a husband".

And of course, if it did have a difference in our case, there is nothing I can do about it now. Thanks for bringing that up, anyway. I knew someone would eventually.

You're the dog glove oil is my fisrt response.

Then after with a little thought don't people in the USA get crushed when they are cheated on by their BF/GF, whether HS, college, as adults. Isn't it inevitable here in the USA to get dumped without the benefits of marriage. So why do Americans have qualms.

I think the MB concepts still apply if you're not married, not every married relationship involves two buyers and not every de facto relationship involves two renters. H and I were together 10 years with 3 kids before we got married, which we only did for passport reasons. We are completely committed to each other and never felt we needed a big expensive party to validate our relationship. The relationship is private and precious.

Many of the other posters here find it important that people are married because it helps them sort out the buyers from the renters. They don't want to waste their time with people who aren't really committed to their relationship. However, you have been together for 11 years, have stuck it out through many false recoveries, and you seem serious. Whether your partner is is another question. The fact that she is afraid of exposure, as GloveOil asked, does suggest that MB concepts can help you.

Like the OP and Mirabelle, I live in a culture where the value of marriage in society has eroded and it is increasingly common to be unmarried with children (Quebec, which is similar to France in this regard).

It also means that people have less children and tend to walk away more from the family unit. There is the inevitable belief that you'll cheat anyways, so why bother with legal hassle? There are repercussions to this. I originally came from a culture where marriage had very high value (Mennonite area with a high east Indian population) and surprise surprise, people had much more cultural/family/internal desire to at least try and work on their families when things went wrong.

Just something to consider?

I disagree.


I live in Northern Europe. People who get married - and I'm married here, all our relatives and most our friends are - are certainly expecting the deepest commitment. I don't understand this comment about being superficial at all.

Living together is a decision that leaves the door open to other people (this is "what if someone better comes along" mentality). Living together is an arrangement which gives you an easy way out of the relationship because you don't have to share anything in the end and can walk away easily. In other words you have decided to make it easy on yourself and your spouse when it ends. And when you say your community is polygamous, then this arrangement is understandably very suitable, because marriage would be expected to be monogamous.

And this site is marriage builders.

She's cheated on you multiple times, she wants to keep living apart from you (to have more party girl behaviour), you're both only 30 with no kids.

WHAT is it going to take for you to realize that this woman is not worthy any commitment let alone the commitment of marriage?

She has failed the test over and over. If you CHOOSE to cling to the belief that marriage doesn't matter and that your society feels infidelity is "inevitable" then there's no point in bothering with MB materials because nothing will change.

So you can do what some people in similar "societies" do: place a value on the family unit and find a woman who does as well. Right now, you're trying to shove a square peg into a round hole. She is NOT going to be the pseudo-wife you want.

People can only bring something up if the original poster - you - gives us all the facts to begin with. Is there a reason why you did not tell us you were not married in your first post?

And really, you cannot have it both ways. You cannot live with, and defend and practice, the cultural norms of one place, where marriage is "not really about God or commitment, more about having a fine party and getting the legal benefits" and then when your relationship takes a path that is normal in your culture, go to a community where the concept of marriage is entirely opposite to that (the community on this website, who use Dr Harley's work in building marriage), and try to apply their much more serious take on marriage to your liberal, polygamous cultural arrangement.

Either you - SirLong - value marriage and practice those values, or you practice the values of living together, where marriage is "superficial" and "a fine party". If that is all marriage is to you, why come for support to people who look at marriage as an act of commitment?

In the part of northern Europe that I live - the UK - living together is becoming the norm. The culture here is also liberal and secular. However, marriage is still recognised as being different from living together. You either make the commitment and get "legal benefits" but also legal and social responsibilities, or you make an arrangement from which you can easily walk away. If you and your partner have chosen not to commit, perhaps partly because both your parents' marriages ended in divorce and you have "baggage" about what it means to be married, then you have rejected marriage. It is quite simple. So why come to a site called Marriage Builders, which is based on traditional concepts of lifelong commitment (legal, social and religious) when you do not believe in those commitments?

This is quite similar to the U.S. Living together is very normal here. I'm not sure why anyone is trying to make allowances for a 'culture'. Either you're in or you're out. Faithfulness is a state of commitment between two people. SirLong, if you have committed yourselves to being exclusive partners to each other, why does there appear to be this attempt to give your girlfriend a free pass to cheat on you because of where you live? That makes no sense.

I appreciate that there may be economic reasons for not marrying (some couples have similar issues in the U.S.) that is part of a person's decision as to whether or not to marry. But at the end of the day, either you're married or you're living together, and those are two different things.

SirLong, if your girlfriend is dating other people in a culture where cheating is truly normal, I'm not sure why you are surprised and why she is crying and upset. AND I'm not sure why her relatives are talking to her for hours on end. It sounds to me like cheating isn't as normal in your lives as you are leading us to believe. I'm not saying you're being dishonest - I am reiterating what I said earlier. I think you're giving her an 'out' for her cheating by blaming it on your 'culture'. Your culture didn't make the decision for her to cheat on you. She's a big girl and made that decision by herself. And she's doing that even now, with this flaky separation thing she's doing (which is a tidy way for her to be able to keep cheating on you without your interference - you know that, right?)

Here's the truth, though: the two of you aren't married. I'm not even sure I'm using the right word when I call her actions 'cheating' - maybe it's better to call them 'dishonest' actions? Don't know...

I don't see any dishonest actions. She has not been hiding the fact that she is involved with another man. It isn't infidelity, SirLong; she has left you. She might come back if that relationship does not work out, but for now she has left you for another man, as is her right.

The fact that you are not married is a complete game changer. There is a huge difference between marriage and living together. It doesn't matter if you live in America or on Mars, it is the same dynamic. Living together is more akin to dating. Your girlfriend is not committing adultery, because she is a free agent. She is not in a committed relationship. We obviously can't take it more seriously than you do, and you didn't take it seriously enough to even bother to get married.

Instead I would refer you to Dr Harley's book, Buyers, Renters and Freeloaders. It explains why these relationships are different. In the meantime, this article explains Dr Harley's views:

Living Together Before Marriage: Compatibility Test or Curse?

I agree, culture is rather irrelevant here, it's my impression too that she is not committed to you. She also sounds self-absorbed and unreliable.

You mentioned that her mother has narcissistic personality disorder. Unfortunately, I have had more experience with NPD than I ever wanted: my father has NPD and my elder sister was for many years his enabler (a good little girl) who blossomed over time into a narcissist too (a really malignant one). NPD has genetic links. I watch myself and my children to see if I or they are developing signs of this destructive personality, I have this little fear inside all the time.

Have you considered that your partner has evolved from an enabler into someone with full-blown NPD?

She sounds a lot like my sister was before I sadly closed the door for good: my sister needed admiration, she could not bear criticism, she had this sense of shame inside that crucified her when she was forced to own up to something hurtful she had done, she twisted everything, she used people without shame or decency, she justified everything she did, she was always the victim. She had a cancer of the personality that turned her into something deformed, toxic and frankly frightening.

In infidelity, the MB way is very effective if followed properly but it is also very hard and painful, you should read some of the other threads to see how much suffering infidelity causes and how long it takes to get over it. You don't have kids by her. Is the relationship really worth it?

p.s. I agree you shouldnt' expose. There is nothing here to expose expect that your girlfriend has a new boyfriend. Nothing wrong with that.

I hope this doesn't become an argument about cultural differences and different ideas about relationships. We may have disagreements about certain things, but please, could we focus on the similarities?

I believe that all people are generally the same. The value of marriage here has eroded and people seem to accept infidelity more easily. That doesn't mean that we as a couple would accept infidelity. We don't. I'm not giving her a free pass because of where we live. I want to stay faithful and so does she. I was just explaining to SugarCane why we are not married.

The reason I didn't reveal that we are not married is because I honestly don't think it matters in this context.

We are both buyers. She has told me that she would marry me if I wanted, but it's not an issue for her to remain unmarried. I think I have proven with my actions that I am not a renter. Like Mirabelle said, relationships become more private, but not less serious. WW wouldn't be on the verge of a mental breakdown if our relationship was just a temporary solution for her.

Cultural differences may explain why we are not married, cultural (or biological) similarities explain why she cries and why I hope.

And I hope because I believe her mental issues are partly responsible for her infidelity and that she still has potential. If she fails this test, I WILL leave her.

SirLong, you can't be a "buyer" if you didn't buy the house. That is the point; you didn't buy the house. This won't be about cultural differences, but about the difference between marriage and living together. You are not married. There is a huge difference between marriage and living together and if you don't GET that part, you aren't going to get anywhere here.

Please read the article I posted and check into getting the book, Buyers, Renters and Freeloaders.

Consider this. What differentiates your relationship from her new relationship? Why is your relationship more legitimate then his? He is not married to her either. He can say he is committed just as you are doing now. He can call himself a "buyer" too.

Her new boyfriend could just as easily claim that it is "infidelity" for her to see you. Do you see where I am going here? You are no different from any other guy because you are not married.

MB concepts can certainly help you SirLong-

Be thankful you aren't married and have no kids with her. Dating is a means to find a suitable life partner - she has not demonstrated any ability to stay faithful. If you feel she has mental issues preventing her fidelity then why on earth continue and bring children into such a mess? Can you imagine how much that will impact a child? For mom to continually run off with other men?

Marriage Builders CAN be used for unmarried couples - and the basic concept of MB for this scenario to cut your losses before getting married and having kids.

Since you didn't buy the house, another prospective buyer is checking it out. The house was for sale all along since you didn't buy it.

That is the key, SirLong. That is the difference between living together and marriage, regardless of culture, regardless of religion (or lack thereof). One has a formal commitment, one does not.

Certainly it still hurts like hell for your girlfriend to be unfaithful. Certainly you wish to recover from this event, and certainly it makes sense to want to retain the relationship.

She is not a buyer. Buyers do not have affairs. Buyers do sometimes transform into freeloaders and have affairs.

You are most likely not a buyer either. There is probably a lot more to being a buyer than you think. My wife and I thought we were buyers when we got here. We weren't.

The information here includes plans on how to transform a relationship from one or two freeloaders or renters into two buyers. You are welcome to try that with this relationship, and I encourage you to try it! You are going to need to start with the book Buyers, Renters, and Freeloaders.

The whole key to Dr. Harley's approach is to 1) help a couple to fall in love again by adopting Buyer behaviors, 2) after they are in love, persuade them to adopt a Buyer agreement to maintain behavior that will keep them in love for a lifetime. You may face big obstacles in this situation because this woman simply is not a Buyer. It will take a LOT from you to win her back to being in love with you, and whether you believe this or not it's going to be enormously hard with that lack of formal commitment that would help to keep her in your vicinity enough to make falling in love with you possible.

You are going to have to change a LOT. You are going to have to become superman. You will have to do all of the hard work yourself, by yourself, for a long time without any reward.

A lot of people try to follow Dr. Harley's plan backward: 2) get their spouse to adopt the Buyer agreement, 1) fall in love for a lifetime. It does not work that way. 1) has to come first, and it is going to be harder in an unmarried case than in a married.

How are you going to test her?