Just wanted to pop in and tell you that my FWH had a big problem for years with sloppy boundaries around women, which allowed him to make some pretty poor decisions. The problem is that his sloppy boundaries became a habit that persisted for years.

Even after he committed to recovery and agreed to a list of Extraordinary Precautions, those habits were still ingrained. He was so used to calling women a little term of endearment or being overly enthusiastic in his praise, even after EPs were instituted, that I feared we would never truly recover, because those habits would be so hard to overcome.

After he called a woman, a work colleague, a term of endearment in an email, I called him on it. First, though, I went into Total Defense Mode--researched airline tickets and made a plan to flee while I was still "intact." Then my cooler head prevailed, and we discussed the problem I had with what he had said in his email. We then added to his EPs--no terms of endearment, ever. Well, except for relatives, like our daughter, grandchildren, his sister.

I thought that listing one of the EPs as "only professional conversations with women" would have included "no terms of endearment," but he hadn't seen it the same way. So we had to do more tightening up and explaining during our first year of post D-Day.

We had to practice his EPs under real-life situations and make sure they became a habit, a reflex. He always used to allow women to stand very close to him, even when I was present. I told him that his EPs needed to include a good space between him and the opposite sex. It took a while for this to become a habit, but it's finally happening. He will move away automatically now if woman comes very close.

When your situation arose, I brought it up to him and we decided upon a scenario for just in case. We do that with many of the situations on the forums or some that I just think up. "What would you do if....?"

Setting up scenarios ahead of time and coming up with a plan might be very helpful for you and your W until the new habits become very ingrained.

I was actually expecting you to share what steps you plan to take in the event that it actually occurs.

Are you willing to list them out?

Learning,

I agree with the comments about habits. And let me expand on some of the other things I was saying about self esteem/self confidence or whatever you want to call it. Much of what we do is habit. Habits can be changed though. Dr. Harley uses the basic example of crossing one's arms. Most people like to do it one way. But if they are thinking about it, they can cross their arms the other way. It feels funny at first, but the more the person does it, the less funny it feels. After a period of time, it is habit. It is the same for any behavior. Once you are aware of a behavior, you can think about it and change it. Longwayfromhome gives some good examples. How does this tie to self esteem?

Remember when I posted that if you behave in an admirable way, positive feelings about yourself would follow? Dr. Harley references a study done in the 1950's by a research psychologist. In this study, it was found that it is easier to change behavior than attitude. Change the behavior and then the attitude will change. Often, on MB, it is summerized as "Feelings follow actions". Does this make sense?

Using bad feelings as a reason for behavior is an excuse. And dwelling on past negativity with therapists isn't helpful. Talking about your childhood or how you felt after kids picked on you at school, etc. doesn't help you deal with the trashy drunk that plunks her behind on your hand. If you think about what you are doing, you can change the way you habitually respond.

Reviewing the EPs is a good start. Tightening up on them is better. You have a long list of them, mostly don'ts. Think about this suggestion. Your number one EP could be, "I will always do whatever is necessary to care and protect my wife, the most important person in my life". From there, everything else follows.

BTW, Melodylane doesn't nitpick and if you find her posts disturbing, then it is probably something you should think about more. When someone gets upset about a post, it is usually because it hits too close to home.

AM

Your post was encouraging to me. I dont know if my wife would take part in that activity or though I would like to; therefore I will put it too her.

People assume that everyone acts the same black and white way and to shout at you will mean you should just see the light and jump in line with no problems; so to see that you worked with your FWH on his level and then he was able to naturally make the changes; therefore benefiting you; is great.

He was able to implement changes in real life and understand mistakes an naturally find his path to meet the marital needs. This is great and I'm thinking of ways I can build up the same way. Silly example as I've already used it in this thread. I should practice becoming more assertive on the telephone without worrying about the cold callers feelings (they will survive). This is a small start but once I start to realise that the world won't end if I stand up for myself or my wife the easier the next time and the bigger situations will get; also becoming natural with it to.

Learning,

Are you saying that all of your many affairs occurred because sleazy women came onto you and you weren't assertive enough to tell them no? Do you realize how silly your previous post sounds?

AM

The changes my H made were not at all "natural;" he had to work hard at learning and implementing the EPs. He knew, and I knew, that if these EPs were not instituted and followed very strictly, I would not stay for more.

He had to get completely on board, and quickly. I had, and still have, my escape plan. He knows MB so well now that when we watch movies, he will comment on an MB "infraction."

There were a few times when H returned home early, and I was out doing errands; he thought in a panic that I had left him. He said he would race upstairs and check my closet. That's how serious we are about tightening up the EPs so there is not one crack left.

And the great thing is that it doesn't just benefit me, the betrayed spouse. He finally realized what an a##h044 he was all those years. He is emphatic now, for the first time in our marriage, that he never wants to be "that kind of person" again. He hates what he once was. He wants to become a really decent and good husband, so that one day, I will be able to say I'm glad we stayed married. These are his words. The better he has learned to act in our marriage, the better he actually feels about himself. He never got that connection before.

He had to get to the point where he understood that what he got from the attention of other women was nothing but silly flattery. Those OWs would destroy his life as he knew it and give him a much lesser woman in return. They would like him just as he was, so there would never be a need for him to improve his character.

Have you two signed up for MB Online? It's a really good program and helped us immensely to stay on track. If you can't afford the Online program, then at least go through the LB and HNHN books together, and do the workbook.

The woman that sat on your lap had nothing to do with, "exactly what landed me in all this in the first place".

Your un-willingness to PROTECT your wife, is, 100%, the real culprit.....

It was YOU, not this woman that sat on your lap.....

Do you see this yet?

It's why your wife left and went home!
It was her disgust with YOU!





Again; Your un-willingness to PROTECT your wife, is, 100%, the real culprit..... NOT NAIVETY

You have been un-willing to change the behaviors that leave your wife and your marriage vulnerable....

Do you see this??



Again; Your un-willingness to PROTECT your wife, is, 100%, the real culprit.....

Your wife may appreciate that you listen, BUT,

Are you taking the ACTIONS necessary to PROTECT your wife and your marriage??

The only thing that's pathetic, is doing the same things that hurt your wife and marriage, over and over again, expecting a different result.

Doing something different will lead to different results. A.M. is trying to help you, please listen and take action, OK!


ON A DIFFERENT NOTE;
Please reply to our questions in their entirety. Frequently you are summarizing our posts, which is very dismissive. I'm certain this is a habit of yours in real life as well. Most waywawrds have been very good con artists and very smooth talkers their entire lives. You'd bode well for yourself to just post with sincerity and not try to make excuses or try to cover your a$$. We are looking for the actions you are taking and need to know details in order to help guide you. Your wife isn't going to leave you for being radically honest with us, however, she will lose more and more love for you if you hide truths and talk in circles that are dismissive. OK!

With that in mind, I'm very glad you are still posting.

Maybe the reason your 'self esteem' is so low is, you think of yourself - and portray yourself - as a sniveling, weak, sissy flower boy who would rather spew a bunch of oh-woe-is-poor-pitiful-you psycho-babble instead nutting up and calling things what they are.

Grow up, man up, and live up to your responsibilities as your wife's husband, or get out of her way so someone interested in actually doing the job can get it done.

...you think of yourself...as a sniveling, weak, sissy flower boy who would rather spew a bunch of oh-woe-is-poor-pitiful-you psycho-babble instead nutting up and calling things what they are. Grow up, man up, and live up to your responsibilities as your wife's husband, or get out of her way so someone interested in actually doing the job can get it done.

Whoa! If L2G got all riled about my comment, I'll enjoy reading the answer to this one!

I would recommend separating yourself from single friends, and tomcats. If this runs you off, you NEED to be run off, sir. How dare you put your wife through hell and refuse to give up a few friends because of it. If you two want to spend time at pubs, I am all for that, but it should NOT be with single people. Replace them with faithful-minded married friends, they are just as fun and don't draw whores to the table.

I realize you don't see it this way, but believe me, from this side it totally looks like you are choosing your chums over your wife and children.

Real friends (yes, YOUR real friends) would have stood up to you about your horrible behaviour when your wife ran out in humiliation.

Ok to put an end to the whole self esteem/confidence issue ill say this. I dont believe these issues can be removed by simply acting and being a better person BUT I do believe I can habitually change so that my actions and habits protrait that of a confidence person; i.e the ability to push the skank ho off and shout at her. It would appear confident and of course most importantly protect the marriage even if inside it scares the **** out of me.

I had a good chat with my wife about this and basically said that my mindset needs to be - even if I upset everyone in the world and the whole world hates me as long as I can get home safely with my wife and we are strong and she still loves me I'll thats all that REALLLY matters.

So NO more excuses using confidence etc... Ill work on that by starting with the example of the cold callers so ican see their world wont end when I cut them off. Then Ill imagine scenarios and how I will handle them. Then ill focus on creating a habit of - protect my wife at all costs. I should practice this daily at every opportunity to insall it as a habit. I will seek my wifes input as to how I behaved/handled a situation to fine tune and learn what she and the marriage needs of me from now on.


ah ok we never thought about using anything so vast and positive to be honest. As you say most of my EP's are dont's. I agree that its a nice start point and then I can use the donts to tighten and protect that inital statement.

I hope to come back very soon with an altered EP list.

Sorry I didnt explain myself very well, by natural I didnt mean without effort, god I know its not easy and must be worked at. I meant to say that I liked your system as it involved "on the job training" if you like. Its hard to be told something on MB and be expected to run into the open world and just implement it. But by effectively managing the change closely and ingraining it into your husband I can see the benefits of it. Of course it like having a coach or fitness instructor ensuring you dont stray from the path. OK this cant always be fair on the betrayed person to have to give even more of themselves and their time considering they are normally the hurt party but they can directly see the benefits in front of their eyes rather than waiting for a miracle when a scenario pops up and then being frustrated when it doesnt arise (not refering to me just a general statement)


ok me not mentioning confidence lasted one post lol

I started a conversation last night about this issue; as for the past 3 months ive been closest thing to the perfect husband and dad that ive ever been (acknowlegded by wife). I have definitely felt better about my behaviour and I have felt like a better person for this period. So I can understand what everyone is saying regarding acting better and feeling better and the link involved.

What it didnt effect was how I felt about myself, i.e the fact that I havent left the house in years without wearing my baseball cap even to put the rubbish out. Its my safety item and have a tantrum should I lose it. Its this lack of confidence that has stopped me from EVER creating a scene in public or hurting anyones feelings including people that blatently deserve it. Forget skank start small, when shopping we regualarly see people without kids parking in the parents spaces at supermarkets, my wife has enough and tell them off and makes them feel bad about their actions, they may not move but she hopes they might think twice about doing it again. I wouldnt dare speak up and just scuttle on my way to get on with the shop asap; even feeling awkward because of my wifes public outburst.

However just to recap before I get squashed, I realise this cant be used as an excuse for not protecting my wife and as I answered to AM above, I must realise even if I upset the world as long as MY WORLD (wife) is happy and feels loved and protected, who cares right?


Unfortunately we really cant afford the online program at the moment. We have struggled to ensure we had some phone couciling with Steve after d-day but that was it.

We already own 'HNHN for parents' and 'surviving an affair'. We have covered the material in both but we have certain parts of HNHN we both want to sit down and recover to ensure we understand and impletment correctly.

We dont have the LB book or the workbook. Maybe we should look at picking up the workbook to keep us on track.

I wholeheartidly agree with these three statements, I cant control other peoples behaviour but I can control how I deal with it and how I choose to protect my wife. At the moment I choose to do nothing and damage limitate later which is disgusting and I accept that to save my marriage this must change. Time to get a move on...


I started a conversation with my wife as she said the same thing and agreed with your comment. I didnt quite see what I was doing wrong. When someone here asks me something im reading it for the first time and have probably never thought about it ever before, so I acknowledge the post by answering ill do that and report back. Apparently this isnt whats needed and I should be answering with an direct response. Im happy to do this in future although might mean I dont respond as quickly as Ill have to come to my answer before posting anything. I sincerely thought acknowlegding the posts was polite and never intented to annoy anyone. Ill answer more directly from now on....

Hi CWMI,

We go out very very rarey and even then its usually to a safer environment such as cinema together or a meal. Its been years since we have been to such a public place. However what happened happened to obviously needs to be dealt with. My wife and I stand united on the friend front. The majority of our friends are safe and either married or in loving relationships. Only 2 of our friends are still single. One of which ive known for 25 years and hes been a friend of my wife and the family for the full 12 years we have been together. He is godchild to all 4 of our kids and has always been around. We have had falling outs over my behaviour in the past and he has supported my wife and cut me off before. The other one on that evening we hadnt seen for 8 years, although he was the one who was chatting to the single girls so my wife and I are both aware of his danger should we ever see him again we both know how we will need to act.

I remember reading this from the next post I think so ill answer it here. On the night in question no one actually noticed my wifes exit as she excused herself to the toilet. They were all drinking to and no one was aware of what I/skank had done or my wifes pain so I wont blame them for not supporting my wife and for not standing up against me.

Again I started a conversation with my wife regarding friends awareness of our issues. They were all exposed to around d-day so theres no issue there. I mean in terms of what happened in this situation for example was my wife left and went home and then I followed and we chatted for hours. My friends kept calling me as they were worried and wondered where I had gone and I didnt excuse myself from the group and just walked out in a panic over my wife. I texted them a hour of so after the incident just to let them know im ok and back at home along with my wife; also they would stop calling when im trying to engage with my wife in conversation.

My wife was then angry that I hadnt made them aware that I had messed up and hurt my wife and that is why we both left. I have never aired our dirty laundry and to be honest neither has anyone ive ever known so I dont see this as unusual and honestly I felt its perfectly normal. However she felt that I had covered up my bad beaviour and also that she would be blamed, as she left and then I left to find her; so our friends would all assume she was the party-pooper and not me. I can understand this point and to be honest the next morning she spoke to a member of the group and indeed he had assumed just that so point beautifully proved. Im willing to change my behaviour regarding this immediately...

edit: forgot to answer the getting new friends part:

Just to be completely honest, this is unlikely as my wife doesnt work and I work alone. We arent part of a church as most people on MB are. Yes we could find local parent groups etc but we wont as we simply dont have time. We are massively busy and any spare time is of course used for the 15hours UA time. Im sorry if this sounds negative and closed but im being honest with you reagrding this ok.


A question for this forum if you dont mind...

its now 5 days since this incident, should I talk or message the friend that asked about that night - to correct what they believe or is it weird now and should be adhered to solidly in future. I know this forum is all for uncomfortable exposure so im guessing the answer will be yes but im just thinking that to be honest they wont care one bit who left first and why; and my contacting them now could be strange and they will probably also believe my wife is behind it as in the past ive had to be unwillingly pushed into everything ive done regarding exposure etc and they know that. So would it in fact make things even worse for my wife? Or am I looking for excuses not to do it?

Please stop and think honestly about this question and dont just think yay embarass the wayward....

Please see my first reply to CWMI, I knew these comments were lurking somewhere.....

Quick personal update:

I announced to my wife I have decided not to drink alcohol at all outside of the house (please remember even inside I drink maybe 1 unit every 1/2 months but its nice to relax sometimes in a safe environment). She wasnt particularly happy with this and thought it was unecessary. I spoke to her regarding AM question about whether the alcohol may or not have made a difference that night and have decdied that the possilblity made it worthwhile changing. Also by me being the odd one out it maybe helps my friends (including the single ones) to understand my issues as to why im doing it because believe me they will ask, and as per last post, I will now tell them and make them aware.

Also part of my personal confidence issue is I hate to stand out in a crowd whether it be friends or strangers so this will force me to start getting over myself and be the odd one out who people think strange and ask questions about.

After all that I missed your initial post, was just checking back and found it....

Ok so we are shopping and OW tries to start conversation:

1. Do I have a gun?? if yes see point 2, if not move to point 3
2. Call her a slut and home wrecking w***e then kill her while laughing hysterically.
3. Hold hands with my wife the entire time
4. Tell her that I never want to see her fugly face ever again and that if she doesnt respect the NC I will call the police
5. Tell her im married to the most amazing person ive ever met and that she was the biggest mistake of my life, although it made us stronger so Im lucky I chose such a pathetic disgusting skank to show me the light
6. Tell her to rot in hell and leave with my wife our heads held high

Love Busters is a must-have. Dr. Harley prescribed that book for us first. It goes through each love buster, explaining why it is destructive to the marriage relationship and how to stop it.

The workbook is full of helpful and detailed questionnaires for each love buster and the emotional needs, as well as worksheets for UA time and more.

We found it most useful to read the books aloud together. We'd make a time for it most evenings, setting aside a half hour or so, read a portion of a chapter and discuss it.

I have only stayed with my H because of his hard work to stop all his previous love busters and because he's so willing now to meet my emotional needs, in a way he has never done before.

His EPs with women took some tweaking, because his habits were so ingrained that he apparently didn't see them for what they were: an over-familiarity with women. He thought it was safe if he didn't find them attractive, but I wanted the habits to stop completely, with ALL women, regardless of age or attractiveness. I wanted it to become his second nature to protect our marriage.

The rest of the EPs have been followed closely: I have all his passwords and he knows I check when I want to. I don't tell him when I do, and I never feel guilty about checking. His computer at home doesn't have a password, and I will go into it periodically. We spend all our free time together and spend no nights apart.

One of the most important things we have done is learn the POJA, which we now believe is the foundation of a good marriage, along with Radical Honesty.

Are you meeting your wife's ENs very well? You should become an expert in this. Have you eliminated all Love Busters? Doing this will prevent you from losing Love Units with your wife.

My H is in the habit of keeping women at arm's length now. He doesn't even like it much when women from our church insist on giving him hugs. So someone plopping onto his lap would probably (hopefully) make him stand up immediately in shock.