I've lurked here reading all the wonderful advice for some time now, but never posted. I`m hoping now that some wise people will give me some help in dealing with my FWH who refuses to give up a friendship I`m not comfortable with.

My husband worked with a woman, �Sandi", years ago until she quit to stay home with her children. They have stayed in contact over the years by the occasional text and (long) conversation on their cellphones, and every couple of months they will meet up for coffee in the mornings (during my husband�s work hours). He has admitted that at some point in the past (during a time that he worked quite closely with her) he felt something for her (he�s vague here), some kind of emotional and/or sexual attraction. But he insists that he no longer feels that way about her. Before the affair I had absolutely no problem with his friendship�but times have changed.

Backgound: my husband and I have been married almost twenty five years, together since our teens. We have four children, the youngest is almost 13, and the oldest is 23. In January of 2010 my husband opened up a secret facebook account with a younger woman from his office. They ended up having a six month relationship which included the usual all day texting, nightly facebook sex talks (he went to bed early, slept in his own room), sexy photos (including one from the office lady`s room), coffee meet-ups, three incidents of sexual touching, a few kisses, and weekly mutual phone sex when he was out of town. Luckily I discovered it just as it was about to become more physical (verified by my snooping).

To his credit, my husband ended the affair immediately when I found out. Almost a year of trickle truth torture followed, during which I resorted to emails and conversations with the OW to find out the truth. My husband and the OW kept in contact secretly during this time and their calls increased after he saw her cozying up to another co-worker at the company Christmas party (spouses aren't invited). (His competitive spirit kicked in he explains.) My persistence paid off in the end and my husband confessed to the last bits at the end of May last year. Only occasional work related stuff since then: total no contact (she occasionally answered the phone at work) was not achieved until recently.

A nasty note left on his desk, and her disclosure to his boss totally ended my husband`s interest in her. He really can�t stand her now, and says he can�t even bear to hear her voice. I have no worries about this woman, and he has sworn he will never speak to her again, and she works on another floor so she's easily avoided.

Now he tells me that he always hated the lying and that it wasn�t really �him�, and he is committed to always telling me the truth. (I'm very grateful for this). In fact, he now wears his re-discovered honesty like a badge. He often talks about how truthful he is, and figures it is the panacea for the troubles in our marriage. Nothing else is required of him. As long as he tells me about his calls with Sandi (after they happen it seems), all is well.

Sandi is a big trigger for me. For a few days after dday (before I`d figured things out) I assumed she was his affair partner because she was his only female friend. She is the same age as the OW, a friend of hers (they worked together), pretty and petite (like the OW), same age as her (thirteen years younger than my husband), and outgoing, like my husband. He uses his cellphone when he talks to her (during the day), like he did with the OW, and he goes for coffee with her (like he did with OW). My husband has told me that he knows this woman far better than the OW, and that he likes her much more as a person, and feels closer to her. He is adamant, however, that she is just a friend and she�s not interested in him either (she�s happily married). I think I believe him here, but I wonder why its so hard for him to end his friendship. I�m asking him to at least put it on hold until I feel more comfortable with it. He figures that might be never, and he doesn`t want to permanently end his friendship.

Unfortunately this has become a big issue for me. I feel that I cannot move on from the affair as long as Sandi is in the picture. I�ve told my husband that with the OW now totally out of the way, all that I have left to impede my recovery is his relationship with this woman. My husband shows me no empathy and tells me that I am just trying to manipulate him, and since he has had a long friendship with her and nothing has happened, there is no reason for him to stop communicating with her. She isn�t the one he had the affair with, so I should just get over it. He said it won�t bother me so much in time.

A few weeks ago he finally agreed not to call her (said he would talk to her only if she called him), but when he came home from a business trip this week, he told me that he had called her again. I was crestfallen. His excuse was that he was worried she might find out about his affair and he wanted to tell her before someone else did. He said that although he meant to keep his promise when he gave it to me, he later realized that I had �coerced� him into it, and therefore he had no obligation to keep it. When I asked how I�d coerced him, he basically said that the agreement was coerced because I was the one who came up with the idea. He said he was sorry he didn`t honour it, but really his biggest mistake was allowing me to force him into making a decision he didn`t agree with (blamed it on me). He feels that I�m being manipulative (by telling him my feelings?) and controlling. (Believe me, I am very passive, and the least controlling person that I know of). I think by making me the adversary here he can push my feelings aside, and just do whatever he wants.

I�m so upset that he told Sandi about our situation. I�m hurt that he had a private conversation with her for almost two hours. She apparently told him that if I wasn`t comfortable with their friendship then maybe they shouldn�t talk for awhile, but he said that he would then feel resentment towards me and that wouldn�t be right....so give me a call later. He lied to her about what happened (so much for the honesty), told her that it was only some inappropriate facebook messaging with someone from his past. I feel like he's left Sandi with the impression that I'm a bit of an overreacting nutjob. She�s a nice girl and I have a feeling that if she knew the full extent of it all she would be sympathetic to me and back off. I'm thinking I should call her. What do you think? (My husband will be livid.) At the same time I want him to end the relationship because he knows it`s best for us and not because I`ve forced him to.

I�ve tried to talk to him about MB principles, but he�s not interested. He also refuses to go to a counsellor. He hates the fact that I go on this site, mainly because it reminds him of the affair and he just wants to sweep the whole thing under the rug. He accuses me of obsessing.

Any help here would be greatly appreciated. (Sorry this is so long!)

Hello Linda, welcome to MB!

The way you describe your WH's behaviour and excuses I would say he is still very much a wayward - he demands opposite sex friendships and justifies independent lifestyle. Gaslighting is a very typical strategy of waywards, too.

One of the ways to affair-proof your marriage is to not have opposite sex friendships. It is absolutely okay to demand that. Does this Sandi have a husband? I would call her H and tell him that your WH and her WW are keeping a friendship that is totally inappropriate, I'm sure he doesn't have a clue. In addition to being a trigger to you, this IS a serious threat to your marriage, this can easily turn into full-blown affair if not already.

Welcome to MB Linda. Sorry you are here.

Of course you aren't going to be able to get over your WH's AFFAIRS(plural here because Sandi, she's an OW) as long as your WH still has contact with his affair partners.

Your WH is going to need to leave that job. He has begun at least 2 affairs there. If you don't get him to change that, he will continue the affair with OW2, or he will move onto a new OW.

Of course your WH lied to OW1, he was doing damage control. He didn't want her to think she wasn't special.

Now, I wouldn't contact OW1. It will do you no good. What I would do though is expose. Do you know who OW2 is? D you have her friend's list from FB? I would find out all of the info you can on family and friends of both OW's. Also, you will need to expose this to your WH's employers. He is a HUGE risk to them.

There is a link in my siggy that helps guide a BS through this site. Also, you need to read MelodyLane's exposure thread.

You should get into Plan A, and prepare for Plan B.

Do NOT tell your WH about this site, or the advice you are getting here. Do NOT warn him that you will expose.

Hi Linda

Welcome to MB!

I am so sorry for the pain, particularly the trickle truth you have endured.

Dr H makes it clear that if a wayward spouse does not agree to all the conditions for recovery, that you should go into Plan B after a very short Plan A.

I am concerned that he hasn�t even implemented NC, never mind your other conditions. While he may tell you he hates her, that is not enough to keep NC. Working on another floor from the OW is not NC either.

Waywards are like addicts. They don�t chose quality women, they dont choose attractive women or women they love. They choose sources for cheap admiration which puff them up. Like cheap booze. My WH hated the OW for years before the affair began.

Your H works just floors away from his already active addiction.

When their lives are on the rocks because of their addiction, they say 'never again' and 'I hate her' and they put the whisky bottle away. That is just hangover talk though and they soon succumb to the addiction again. That is why proper NC where he quits his job is a must.

There is also a lot you probably don�t know, as you seem to have relied on the OW for verification of the truth, rather than a polygraph. You should most certainly insist on a poly. Aside from the danger of the affair restarting with the OW you know about, but there is also the risk he is having other affairs, or that the affair never ended.

He has terrible boundaries with women and puts their feelings before yours. That is a huge red flag and I would strongly suggest you check for other or ongoing affairs with a poly.

An unremorseful spouse who does little towards recovery is a rather alarming sign of an active affair in play. If you had slipped into such a horrible mistake but fully repented, you would do all in your power to make things right, wouldnt you?

However it is not hopeless, many waywards are like this and can be motivated to do better.

What has been done in regards to Exposure? Have you implemented a proper MB exposure where people were urged to help you recover your marriage from this affair?

Thank you Mrs. R, Scotland and Indie for your thoughtful and insightful replies. Much to think about here.

Wow, it never would have crossed my mind that my husband lied to Sandi because he didn`t want her to think she wasn`t `special`. This sounds like it`s so much deeper than I thought. Who is this man I`m married to.

I did expose to OW1`s husband (I`ve never in my life seen my husband so angry--roared into the phone at me for half an hour�couldn�t make out a word he said). OW has already told the owners of the company where he works. My children know absolutely nothing about any of this. If I have to Plan B, I will tell them then, but my husband will be devastated and I doubt he will ever forgive me.

A polygraph is definitely something I`ve been considering, and I`m going to insist upon it now. I know he told Sandi the last time they spoke that I wanted him to take a poly about their relationship, but he wouldn`t do it because ``feelings come and go when people are friends for a long time``. That`s the first time they�ve actually discussed their relationship, (according to my husband). `He didn`t tell me what her reply was, but I`m wondering now if he was fishing for some kind of positive response from her.

I understand why it wouldn`t normally be wise to talk with an OW, but I`m pretty sure Sandi has no interest in having an affair with my husband. She�s happily married, with a handsome and good-natured husband (he�s fine with their friendship because he doesn`t perceive my husband as a threat). I think Sandi probably enjoys their conversations (my husband�s normally an excellent communicator), and appreciates his admiration, but I`m pretty sure she`s not interested in pursuing anything more. She would likely be shocked if she knew I was fretting over all of this. She was the one that suggested putting a hold on their friendship.

If I spoke to her, I�d do it in a a coffee shop, woman to woman, and explain that my husband is not admitting to what actually happened with OW, explain the changes I�ve seen in him( the `fog` etc.) and why their relationship is such a big problem for me. I feel confident that she would likely agree wholeheartedly not to call him again, (and if not�.well, then I will know that I�ve been totally fooled again!). She could turn out to be my ally in all of this, and telling her about the affair with OW might be a good way of exposing because Sandi loves to talk, has many friends ( her best friend works in my husband�s office) and I�m sure her husband would be the first one she�d tell. It might be a good way to �nip it in the bud�--what do you think?

I`m leaving tomorrow for a Easter holiday in New York City with my husband and lovely and amazing daughter, so I might not be able to post for a few days, but I will be checking my responses and replying when I get back. Thanks again!

ll. I am sorry that you find yourself with a third person inserted into your marriage. I know how this hurts because my situation was very similiar. I remember how I would endlessly try to convince/educate my own FWH to stop his opposite sex friendships. As you have found out...that tactic does not work.

Your thoughts on this friend Sandi doing the right thing are based on your "hope" that she will do the right thing. I am sorry to be so cynical ... I wouldn't count on it. She had no problem talking to your WH for two hours while he was away on a business trip. That says it all right there. She has extremely poor boundaries and may not even know the difference between right and wrong or maybe just doesn't care. At any rate, she is not your ally and never will be. Don't even think about going down that path.

You absolutely must expose this friendship to Sandi's husband. But before you expose set up a keylogger on the computer and spyware on your husband's phone.

LL. I learned all these things the hard way. Don't make the same mistakes I made. Go back and read your initial post. There are many

Waywards lie. To everyone. About everything. Most were extremely honest before the A but the addiction turns them into liars. If he or she says its raining, I would check before believing them.


Do you know for a fact that she did this? Even so, it isn't exposure unless you contact them and in the right way.

As for your children it is massively damaging to keep such a huge secret from them. We have seen this blow up in so many peoples faces. Affairs hurt children, lying hurts children, the truth does not. Some BWs have even discovered their children knew but were frightened to tell her.

I am VERY glad to hear of his anger about OWH. Anger means exposure is working. Anger does not last.

However pokerface is right. Snoop first before FULL exposure.



You've just described the classic affair! Her husband is perfect for marriage and yours is perfect for the on the side stuff. He's meeting TWO ENs (that you know of) and most affairs start with just one. The fact that her husband meets three only makes an A more likely because between the two she has it all and it triggers a powerfully addictive feeling of love. An EA always goes PA.



OW aren't women. They care not for sisterhood.

And yes she would 'agree'. She'd agree your socks off. OW know what a BW wants to hear.

Her actions tell you more than any agreeable words would.

She has 'suggested' ending the friendship but can't actually quite make that one stick - in spite of knowing it hurts his marriage.

A married man recently tried to befriend me at work in a similarly inappropraite way I know his wife would hate. Did I 'suggest' putting a stop to a too close friendship? Nope. I just did it.

What Dr. Harley says on telling the children
Infidelity what children learn
Radio clip on Dr. Harley explaining about telling the children as young as 4

I had a wonderful time in New York....what an amazing city! I saw Jesus Christ Superstar and the singing was so incredible it brought tears to my eyes. I thought very little about the affair business during our holiday, but on the plane home it all started coming back to me.

So, I did my checking on the keyloggers, GPS on his iphone, etc. but no evidence of anything. I was pretty positive there was no secret contact with Sandi, and I had a gut feeling that she had no interest in WH so i decided to ask her for coffee, and see what I could find out. (I know other people had advised me not to do this, but I went with my gut on this one). I also figured she had a right to know how I really felt about their friendship so she could decide on her own if she wanted to continue it.

She was very friendly and warm when I called, and when we met for coffee she gave me a hug, told me she knew something was up with my husband. When I told her both how much marital strife their friendship had been causing and the real story about OW (no intimate details, but I did say there was quite a bit more than he confessed to) she was totally flabbergasted, and said I should have called earlier. Then I asked her about the last conversation she'd had with WH and she told me that she'd told him he needed to work on his marriage, and that he shouldn't be calling her. She said she'd been surprised when he stubbornly said that he didn't think he should have to end their friendship, and that he would resent me if I made him do that. When the conversation ended he told her to give him a call at the end of May and she said she would not be doing that.

Sandi told me she wasn't attracted to WH. She is devoted to her own husband and marriage, and would never do anything to threaten that. She told me she'd actually confronted her own husband when she thought he was getting to close to a co-worker. She said she'd already discussed WH's last call with him, and that she was sure he wouldn't want her to continue their friendship after she told him what we had just discussed. Then she said that she would not call WH again, not answer her phone when he called her, and ignore any texts from him. She suggested that I text her periodically to find out if he's tried to contact her. I felt like a weight was lifted off my shoulders!

She is really beautiful, both inside and out, and I feel quite inferior. I had rushed to meet her at the coffee shop from the hair dresser's after receiving the worst dye job and styling possible. And when we got up to leave I didn't see a step down to a lower level and tripped, spilling my coffee all over the place. I didn't stop to clean it up, just kept on walking. (Actually quite funny when I think about it.) She was so kind, helping me recover from the near fall and embarrassment. She gave me a huge hug when she left and I felt so relieved as I drove home.

WH, of course, got extremely angry when I told him I'd met with her. Couldn't believe it. Basically said that his life is ruined now because she's a chatty-cathy and now the world's going to know his business. He said I had no right to call her because she's HIS friend. He feels humiliated. I had no right to interfere with his friendships. He said that I was trying to control him and there's no way he'll ever let me do that. He even said that they'd been friends for years and that this incident wouldn't end their friendship. (I didn't tell him that she'd already ended it). He told me I would no longer have access to his phone and that he would do whatever he wants from now on. He brought up how I had done this to him before when I wrote the letter to the OW's husband and here I go again, blah, blah. I'm afraid I did engage and do some LBing too (so hard not to). But I did say I was trying to save my marriage and told him what I had tried to achieve by calling her. Of course, he didn't hear a word I said.

Happily, my anger was temporary, and I don't feel at all like I did when he roared at me the last time. I'm actually quite calm right now. I know that I could not have lived happily with him as long as that friendship continued, and so I had nothing to lose by breaking it up. He's not talking to me now, of course.

We're going on another longer, amazing European vacation in a few days and I wanted to get this out of the way before we went. I knew that I would feel better if I didn't have to think about him calling her up when we got home. Hopefully he'll be talking to me by that point, but if not I'm sure I'll still have a good time with my kids.

I only wish he would have broken up their friendship himself! And I wonder if he will ever come to his senses and see the ridiculousness of it all.

I have a feeling that something is going on, even if it's just an EA...

You really hit a nerve here, and he wouldn't react like that if she was "just a friend"...

Please read this.
How to Survive An Affair



Transparency occurs when couples follow the Policy of

Also who was your WH's first affair exposed?
Exposure 101

If your WH doesn't have boundaries around women he will have another affair. I'm worried because you think he isn't having an affair with "Sandie" that he's in the clear, but his refusal to be transparent with you is a huge

Please read these by Dr. H.
Are "Friends" A Threat to Your Marriage?

Snooping is it right or wrong?

I'll agree with Karma, and will add: I wouldn't trust 'Sandi' as far as I could throw her. I think they've had an EA at minimum - and I think both of them are foggy. She appears to be minimizing her awareness of your WH's feelings for her.

Remind me please: what snooping are you doing? Because I don't think this is over by a long shot.

IYA with Karma, and MB. Also, she could have just changed her phone numbers and any other way for your WH to contact her, and then she wouldn't need to ignore.

His attitude shows his fogginess. He is not safe for your emotional well-being.

Never trust an OW. They can say one thing to your face and another to your WH.

I think you need to be working on your plan B letter and post it here so it's ready when you are.

Thanks to all for your responses. We had a wonderful vacation during which we didn't talk about anything affair related. Same old problems were waiting for me at home, though.

As far as snooping goes, I have gps on his cellphone and spectorsoft on our computer. They have come up with nothing. He has an iphone so there's no way of monitoring that, but all the final calls to OW were made on payphones anyway. I'm almost certain that there's nothing going on with Sandi or anyone else. I went over old phone records looking for Sandi's home and cell numbers and found nothing but the occasional call. Her responses to me were very convincing and real, and I'm pretty good at picking up on deception (I've learned a lot about it in the past couple years.)

WH, though, will not give me the reassurance I need that he'll never communicate with Sandi again (or have other future female friendships). He says that I am trying to control him, and he will never be controlled. He insists that there has never been anything but friendship between them (but admits that he has on occasion chosen to not mention a coffee meet-up or long conversation because I might take it the wrong way). What I am asking him to do amounts to very little. Sandi is the only woman (other than OW) that he has ever had a close friendship with, and what are the chances that that this issue will come up again? So he gives up this occasional coffees and phone conversations with her, is that too much to ask? It makes no sense!

Interesting, I read the article that someone posted about the study that found that opposite sex friendships are rarely totally platonic (especially for men). The article mentioned that men often overestimate the attraction their women friends had for them, and I think that's the case with WH. When I told him that Sandi said she wouldn't answer his calls, he told me that he's sure she would. (I said that it seemed like this was a challenge for him, he kind of smiled, but denied it). And when I mentioned that she told me she wasn't attracted to him in that way, he didn't even flinch ...he doesn't believe that either.

I've given up (for now) on talking to him about this issue and have sent him the above article, and some of Dr. Harley's writings. Hopefully they will have some impact on his reasoning.

Linda, did you ever expose these affairs? You never answered that question and this could help to explain why he remained wayward all this time..

Linda, as I am reading your story, there are many of Dr Harley's rules for recovery that haven't been implemented.

This is Step 1. NC. He cannot work at the same place of business as OW1 and now "Sandy" without endangering your M. Not to mention, this will keep him foggy because it will trigger the addictive thoughts and feelings just knowing these two women are there.

Besides this sounds like a work environment that is conducive to affairs based on his own history there and some of the other things you mentioned, parties where spouses are not invited...etc. This isn't a good idea for someone with good boundaries, forget someone with terrible boundaries.

Again, I would expose his affairs, get him out of that workplace and get him on the phone with Steve Harley, Linda. If you cannot get him to do this after you expose his affair while you Plan A him for a short time, I would move to Plan B. Have you read up on Plan A/Plan B?

Thanks again for the responses.

Yes, I've read about Plan A/B, and I feel like in some ways I've been in Plan A since it happened. I sometimes think that I've been too nice and accommodating all along, leaving my husband with the impression that all is well...except for that annoying and persistent need of mine to "talk" occasionally. He has never once brought the subject up to me, even when he has told me he would.

I am trying at all costs to avoid Plan B, thus my repeated and futile attempts to reason with him. I'm giving him material to read and I just sent him Dr. Harley's youtube clip on infidelity. If he doesn't come to his senses soon, I guess I'll have no choice but to move on to Plan B.

I just recently found out about marriage builders, but on my own I exposed to OW's husband, and then OW exposed a rather whitewashed version of it all to the office. WH was called in to talk about it, but nothing was done or really said about it by the management (it's a small company).

Sorry for the confusion....Sandi no longer works at the office. She left to stay at home with her young children. I don't want to expose her because I have no evidence that there is anything more than a casual friendship between them. I have nothing to expose except the fact that they talked on the phone or met for coffee every few months. Although now I see that this can cause problems (and I think Sandi sees this too), I have no evidence that there was anything more. In fact the few messages my husband exchanged with her on facebook (before he knew I had access to his account) were all totally benign, and his cellphone phone records (before he knew I had access to them) show nothing that would indicate an affair. (It's his feelings that I don't trust.) I'll definitely expose if I find out there's more. This is a question I'd ask on a polygraph test.

There are big problems with my husband leaving his job. He is getting close to retirement and there are no similar jobs where we live. He's getting to the age where there are few job opportunities anywhere open to him. My son is in grade 11 and planning on graduating next year, and my youngest son has many friends and is happy where we are. WH has promised he will never speak to OW again and he avoids the floor she works on. I have absolutely no fear that he'll take up with her again: he despises her (the feeling's mutual), and she's now moved on to another (fortunately unmarried) fellow at work. I know it's a lot harder for me this way, but I have told him I will stick it out in this town for another few years, but I will not retire here. Also, WH gets most of his sense of self worth from his job, and I'd hate to see what would happen to him if he didn't have that.

Does anyone think there's a chance he's just sick and tired of talking and feeling badgered by my questions (that's what he says). Is it possible he's just taking a stand on this Traci issue to protect his pride and dignity? He tells me it's the principle of the thing. Could it be that simple?