You shouldn't have to fight to maintain a relationship with someone if she wants to marry you. You are in an entirely different position from fighting to maintain a marriage where there are mutual kids involved. The concept of "fighting" is misplaced in your situation.

Your fiancee failed the audition and you should be looking closely to see what has changed to make you think she is now working flat out to make your future marriage a success. And BTW, someone who is unfaithful by very definition is not a buyer. You seem to be a buyer - but up until recently, her mindset was not that. People don't just "must a mistake" when they go behind their partner's back and get involved with someone else - a mistake like forgetting to turn right before you reach the traffic lights. When being unfaithful, people take a series of conscious actions to disregard their relationship and do something that they know is wrong. At least - that's what they do in a marriage. In a living-together arrangement, where there is not even a binding commitment, the unfaithful partner might not even see their acts as wrong, because they are a free agent. Perhaps the only thing wrong was her hiding her actions and lying to you, but she broke no vows.

It is unnecessary to plan a big expensive wedding if you do not have a lot money. You can plan to have a happy day with close family and friends on a shoestring; it is the act of commitment that matters, not the spending of money. If you both thought marriage was important you would have married by now. I know that living together is not a big deal for many people in contemporary societies, but for someone who has been on Marriage Builders before, I am surprised you were willing to make the half-hearted commitment of living together. (A half-hearted commitment is no commitment at all.)

You also need to think carefully about marrying this woman who puts financial support so highly, when this EN does not come easily to you. FS is not an intimate EN that makes women fall in love with men. If she places it highly on her list, and if you suspect that in the future you will have trouble meeting this EN, then this does not bode well for your future.

These problems are things for you to think about NOW, before you are married and especially before you have any children. There seems to me to be a lot of wishful thinking in your approach, and that is not wise.

No problem, friend. You may not like everything I have to say to you, but trust me when I tell you that we are giving you valuable information. Listen well - it's a gold mine of information. The cart is before the horse, here. You knew you couldn't afford a large wedding, yet you were actively planning it. This needs to be switched. It's fine to have goals, but the financial side must be addressed in order to meet those goals or you will experience inevitable disappointment, which you have already learned. You also put the cart before the horse by living together before marriage. When people settle into a living together arrangement it is easy to become complacent and put off things that may be very important. Like getting married. Consider: if you were not allowed to have sex or sleep together before marriage, you would make getting married a priority, yes? Because that wasn't the case, you have enjoyed all the privileges of marriage without the act of commitment. That has downsides, as you have also learned.

Oh, I certainly agree. My comment was made because you claimed that you are 'governed' by ebbs & flows. You've got that backwards, too. YOU rule the ebbs and flows. Have you read any of the articles here? This is a good one for you: Rules for Good Habits in Marriage It's inevitable that Life is going to toss you the occasional curve-ball. Arming yourself with good marriage habits that you have cultivated daily will help you work through those times without damage to your marriage.
No. You may want to be buyers, but your actions say otherwise. Marriage is your statement to each other and the world that you are committed to each other and are willing to solemnize that commitment by the act of marriage. The statement you are making now is that other things are more important than making that commitment, like saving up for a wedding and reception. That isn't a buyer's priority.

We both have been in failed marriages. We weren't planning a huge wedding but we both had things that we wanted to do. Marriage comes up often in our conversations. How many people actually marry right away after becoming engaged? There is a time & a place for everything. For example, planning the wedding for the month that we became a couple which is months away. We have also talked about the family gathering after eloping. Many men want to have a stable job before getting married.

I came to this site because there was a betrayal. We vowed never to hurt each other, married or not. We laid out many things on the table when we became a couple because of our past experiences.

My fiance was a buy, at the very least. I think that with everything that was going on over the last 5 months she was getting buyer's remorse. She wanted to run away. OM provided an excuse.

OM & fiance kept up communication over the years. I read many of the emails. He was always trying to portray himself as someone who cares about her best interest. He is a player, in the true sense of the word. The few nights ago was the first chance he had to be physically in her presence. They are both guilty. She told me that OM "was not helping the situation."

I disagree on governing the ebb & flow. A fiance feeling depressed, me getting laid off & worried about finances, etc, is not something that I can govern. I can try to work with her to find answers though.

Pushing for marriage right now might be counterproductive. Bombarding her with such things is certainly going to drive her away. I am scared & so is she. Again, I am looking for ways to approach this healing process successfully. This marriage thing is really being pushed on this thread when discovery JUST happened. We are talking about their meeting a few nights ago & email discovery a couple of nights later & a confrontation with evidence, forgiveness & apologies that she hurt me, promises to never do that again, & a commitment to work through this & build a stronger relationship.

Dimmu,

I have been following your thread, and it is hard to read. You have excuse after excuse after excuse for bad behavior.

Your shack-up partner was never a buyer and as a true freeloader/renter, she took the easiest path out of your relationship. She proved to you she cannot commit and her maturity level is that of an adolescent.

She fired you as her boyfriend. Her character is her character and it is poor by far.

You are choosing to find women with poor boundaries around men, hence your continual path down adultery.

My suggestion is to get this freeloader out of your life ASAP, work on yourself, and then once you can stand on your own then look for love.

For now ... I would run from this woman. She failed the marriage test, and isn't likely to pass it anytime soon.

Read the book Buyers, Renters, and Freeloaders ... along with this website, Buyers, Renters, and Freeloaders

I don't think any of us think you should push for marriage now. Many think you should consider dating others and not putting your eggs in this lady's basket.

And there IS a time and place for everything.

If you decide not to try to hang on to this woman and date others......consider not living with them before you find one and choose to marry her.

First comes love, then comes marriage, then come living together and possibly a baby carriage.

The most logical and romantic way to do things even in this day and age of many people skipping the sequence.

Dimmu. This is a wayward mentality that can take their own hurtful act and rationalize it into something that actually seems good for both of you. It is manipulative and a red flag for further affairs down the road.

It is this type of logic that waywards use in their own head to allow themselves to do something they know is wrong.

I agree with the others that she has flunked the marriage interview.

Ok so the consensus is that since she & I aren't "married" & this situation happened when just about three months ago she was happy that I should not try to build a stronger relationship with her & start over but I should leaver her & date others?

We would love for you to build a strong foundation. The only way to do that is to begin with a surface to build.

How can you?

1) Immediately end the living together.
2) Absolutely no sex until married
3) Once living apart begin to date each other by meeting each others emotional needs.

The key here is she has to be willing to do this with you. One person cannot save a marriage. You both need mature on your own and then and only then can you grow together. Since she will live a part from you, she will be responsible for cleaning up her side of the fence.

Again read all you can on buyers, renters, and freeloaders.

The issue here is she already fired you, and proved to you her boundaries around men are poor. Once she lives on her own the chances her boundaries improve are slim.

The foundation you have right now is sand ... it is already faulty and poorly reliable. It will likely crumble with little weight added.

Again, you put the cart before the horse. You had already begun cohabitating, got pregnant and lost your baby...all before you got engaged. You can't use this example. It doesn't apply to you. The two of you need to stop pretending to be married. I would suggest that she move out of your house until the two of you are ready to actually marry.

I feel like I am all over the place...

I am not trying to make excuses. I am trying to list the things that went wrong & the things that I know & the things that may have triggered the situation. I am trying to make sense of it.

She doesn't regard money as highly as may have been implied. I am just saying that it was a major stress factor along with everything else. Some of her ENs were not being met at this time. She also felt that I could do more to deal with some of the clutter & things that we didn't want in the house. When we bought it, the previous occupants left behind many things & winter hit shortly after. We can't throw out just anything where we live, we couldn't rent a dumpster, & our town's spring cleanup isn't until late April, early May.

Many people recommend that we live apart & date. We have this house which is one of our dreams. Before the house, we moved in together ONLY due to the pregnancy. When we lost the baby she did talk about moving into her moms for a while & date as we had been. I was the one who asked her to stay. She agreed to do so. Shortly thereafter we wanted a house to call our own. That is just how things happened.

Now our lives are intertwined. Everything is as a marriage save for the piece of paper. We cannot just live apart. We don't want to.

I am here because I asked her if she still loved me. She said that she wanted to work through this & will never contact OM ever again. She did something out of character & was discovered right away. She promised never to hurt me again. I can accept that as a willingness to rebuild trust & faith.

We have been more intimate. We make love. We are doing more together & we both appreciate it.

Yet I still hurt. I still wonder how it could have happened. I never imagined that this would ever happen with her. A break up maybe, but not this. I have to deal with those feelings. I want her to open up & she has a problem with doing that.

It is all or nothing. I want to save this relationship.

I have been reviewing concepts that I read on here years ago. My devotion to my children while very important often took precedence over UA. I was not scheduling enough alone time with my fiance. I am now making a point to do this. Even though I am working limited hours until one of these interviews leads to a stable job, I can hire our sitter.

We used to flirt & tease each other via text when we couldn't be together. It was a big part of our romance. When we became pregnant & she moved in with me, we stopped doing that. I am trying to start it up again.

We started spending time in different rooms. Now I am sitting in "her spot" on the love seat so that she leans into me so I can put my arm around her.

She told me that our breakfast the other morning was very important & that she needs things like that. Upon reflection, I had asked her about her past spirituality & church going while giving her UA the entire time with my suggestion that we explore that together. This morning we had very little time before work, but we had a small breakfast together.

I don't think she's concerned about 'money'. I think an important EN for her is Financial Support, which is a common EN for a woman. And understand, Dimmu, that financial issues will throw a monkey wrench into an otherwise stable relationship every time. Yes, it will cause stress. Know that and work accordingly. Live below your means. Let frivolous, pricey things go and practice the fine (and rewarding) art of doing fun things that cost little or nothing. Set a budget and live with it. Bank a little bit here and there - it adds up! Throw your pennies in a jar and save them. OR throw your silver coins in a jar (my H and I do this: the silver we've saved over the last year is going to cover the food when we head to the beach with our kids - for the entire week! And we never even missed it!) There is so much you can do that won't put your budget in the red! I'm not going to suggest that, because, realistically, the horse has already left the barn. The reality is that the two of you have thrown your lots in together. I WILL suggest this: marry in a civil ceremony and cement your commitment. Your girlfriend can still wear a pretty dress. She can still carry a pretty bouquet. Her expectations about a fancy wedding will have to be tempered with your financial reality. And...wait for it...the world will continue to revolve. Life will go on. But the two of you will have made that commitment to each other, and that's critical! Plan for it. Plan for a romantic weekend without the kids for your honeymoon, even if it means that the two of you just go to the nearest big city for a romantic weekend away. When you are more stable financially, you can host an intimate reception for friends and family. If you are in need of things, I'm sure your girlfriend's friends can step up to the plate and host a wedding shower for the two of you.

I believe that your first step is to seal your commitment with marriage. ASAP.

You're a quick study Your children should absolutely take second place to your relationship with your wife (when the two of you get married - get on that!)

Child-centered homes are weakened because the priority is off the marriage and on the children. The marriage is the foundation of the family - when it suffers, the children suffer. Do whatever it takes to get in your UA time. Everyone benefits when you do so.

And get married, for crying out loud!

Thank you so much, maritalbliss!

I did bring up marriage to her today. I think that we have to tackle the current issues & reignite our spark, so to speak.

I talked to her about having a lot more alone time. She was very open to the idea.

Don't tell us. Show us. I would also like to invite your girlfriend to come here. I'd like to meet her!

I am learning to do that. She is trying too. She used to tell me that she adored me. I would like to here that from her again..

I almost did show her the site, but I am afraid at this time for her to see some of the things posted in this thread. She is adamant that nothing physical happened.

As she put it today; "It was this stupid thing that I shouldn't have done & I just wish that I hadn't done it."

Well, sure. But the bell can't be unrung. She's got some work to do.

How comfortable are you with her claim that the A wasn't physical?

Dimmu, going waaaay back to 07 April, before the branch off into the question of why you and WGF have never tied the knot, you asked for some thoughts about what to do from the position you now found yourself. Yes, discovering why you set out in a boat made of balsa is important, but stopping the leaks in the craft you're in and successfully reaching a safe harbor MIGHT be more pressing.

Did you get any help from my thread? Have you started reading here about the absolute necessity of 15->20 hours of UA time each week? Have you and she filled out the ENQs, to discover which actions each of you can take would have the greatest success in satisfying the needs of the other? Have you done other things to start creating the kind of relationship that you apparently seem to want?

BTW: HER (carefully observed) enthusiasm for the same actions will tell you volumes about how much she wants the same.

Maritalbliss,

I am sure & have faith that it wasn't physical.

Neverguessed,

I am reading & taking everything in. I am committed to 15-20hrs of UA. I discussed it with my fiance & she agreed right away.

that is not the MB way!

MBers never 'trust' or 'have faith' in the word of a wayward.

What PROOF do you have?