Yikes. I'm not sure either, I'm just glad you can see it for what it is: A game. Good for you, sticking up for yourself.

At some point, you're going to need a poly to make sure you have all the truth that YOU need. I don't know if now would be a good time to bring it up, but if he insists he has done nothing wrong still, maybe you can float that idea to him. Thoughts, vets?

Yup from the wayward script.

He's trying to gaslight you and make you think you're crazy.
Please Explain Gaslighting.

Good job on exposure. I strongly suggest to not play his games or he'll wear you down.

Just keep repeating "I will do what it takes to save my marriage, you want a cookie?" walk away and do not get sucked in.

Keep preparing for plan B as you're being the beautiful wife he knows.

I worry your WH will need to hit bottom before he gets it if he ever does.

You need to protect you and your kids. He will try and keep you in his drama until you're in Plan B.

He has a long list of requirements if he wants to save this M.

How you doing on your plan B preparation?

You did just fine and his response is typical--he blamed you for all that is happening while taking no personal responsibility.

I'd get a list together of what requirements he must meet for you to stay married to him. Present that to him, telling him "I'm done with the games, this is what it will take for me to stay married to you" and, essentially, give him an ultimatum.

Don't let up on the reins, you've taken charge of this and he'll likely start getting pretty pushy once he realizes that he cannot just mow you over again.

Somewhere here there's a list of conditions that others have used that may get you started thinking. I'll see if I can dig it up.

Here's that thread...

http://forum.marriagebuilders.com/ubbt/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=2558780&page=1

A polygraph is a good idea. He's full of it and they both know it. I'd hit him with both barrels now, telling him what he must to do avoid being divorced. Enough of the games, it ends here and now. He's either in, today, right now, this second, or he's out, but that you're flat-out DONE with all of this sh*t.

I'd still plan for Plan B, though.

I didn't see these posted to you yet.
How to Plan B CORRECTLY
Plan B letter samples

jIl, are you in plan b w/him out of the house? Do you have an IM? You shouldn't engage w/him at all, because all you're going to get is lies. Do you have a list of conditions? If he doesn't approach w/a plan for marital recovery, disengage.

Am so glad to hear about the law clinic! That's your to-do thing today!

Honestly, I'm not sure how much truth I need. Or that I can handle. If he would just come clean about the things he already knows that I know, at least that would be something. I have a hard time even imagining the full scope of much worse this may be when I get lied to about everything, large and small alike.

I'm definitely going to have to think about this, but no point in worrying about it until he's shows he'll follow through on some of the other conditions. Without them, there is no marriage and no reason to hurt myself further even if he were agree to the test.

I worry about this as well. I don't really see him making real changes otherwise. I just don't know what would push him to bottom. Exposure changed his tune, but only time will tell if he does anything other than just act nicely towards me.



I'm really only in the beginning stages. Basically, I've accepted I have to prepare for it and do it. I've set a date of May 6th to implement it, to give myself an end date to this madness. Making the actual plan is something I'm going to work on this week. I decided to do it, but got distracted by planning the exposure, so I haven't actually done any of the work yet.

Just finished reading the link and my mind is blown. That is exactly what I've been dealing with for years. In the beginning, he would eventually give up and I would get at least some truth and remorse. Now it's full blown, you are crazy, this never happened, taking it to his grave type of stuff.

Is there any way to make it stop? Just keep saying that I know the truth until he admits it?

I thought the lies came from a place of fear, but that's just so methodical and evil.

Ah, the ultimatum. That should go over well. In the past, anything that even seems vaguely ultimatum like has been met with "I don't do ultimatums. If you give me an ultimatum, I'm only going to pick the thing you don't want." As if he would have given me what I wanted if it weren't a this or that scenario.

I mentioned some of the more pressing things when he was here and seemed willing to listen. Obviously, he didn't agree to anything. I'll work on a more exact list tonight.

So I need to get him to tell me once and for all if it's recovery or divorce, today? Wouldn't I need to go immediately to Plan B if he didn't chose recovery? How else would I back up the threat of being completely done if I didn't go dark immediately when he chose the wrong answer? On the complete opposite note, what if he did actually pick recovery? Would I have to let him move back in right now without having shown me changes? I don't want to allow him to return until I've seen a difference in his actions and not just more lies and promises about the future.

No you Plan A like rockstar(about 3 weeks) as you prepare for Plan B. Then you shut the door to drama.

You need a good IM. He's already out of the house so you need to get into Plan B sooner than later.

When's your apt for the law place Brits_Brat told you about? This should be a priority.

I'm in Plan A, with him out of the house. I haven't prepared Plan B yet and don't have an IM in place.

I'm going to work on my conditions now, so he'll stop floundering around trying to meet my ENs (it's really hilarious the way he's skipping from one to another trying to find which will give him traction when you know what you're looking at) and focus on actually dealing the issue on hand, his infidelity. He's attempted admiration, affection, SF, DS, and conversation all since the letter got back to him. If only he could ever hit on Honesty, since it's my #2 and the only one relevant at this time.

As soon as he gets this list, it's going to be all about the list, or disengage. Change or nothing. Lies are just not going to cut it anymore.

If he does come around and start talking with you "honestly," remind him that you need a poly to move forward with recovery.

It took me more than a month to get my WW to agree to the poly (she still hasn't taken it.) The whole time she was giving me trickle-truth and gaslighting me. Expect him to say stuff like, "I have told you everything! I've poured out my heart and soul and you still think there is more. When is it ever going to be enough?"

After I gave her the poly ultimatum, turns out she hadn't told me everything. In fact, she had told me very little. I almost caved in the face of her consistent denials, constant tears, and general gaslighting. Don't do that. Be strong. Get the poly. Demand it.

Yes, the gas lighting, blameshifting is all very common, very methodical, and evil. I feel at times there is an adultry demon that takes posession of their body. Very scary fighting the demon, get plan A done and go into plan b quickly...it is very exhausting fighting the adultery demon.

Well, the result of such a statement probably doesn't matter because you will each retreat to your own homes when he stammers and hems and haws on a response, but I'd have no qualms about telling him that his continued adultery will result in you leaving him.

Telling a wayward that you will not put up with their adultery is hardly a love buster. Where's that carrot/stick thread that Pep posts...

Here it is.
Pep's Carrot and Stick of Plan A

Also the bar for your requirements should be set high for your WH.

Hi jen - sorry you have to be here. You are getting some great advice from the others here. Absolutely your first responsibility has to be to the health and wellbeing of yourself and your other children. You have to be protected from him and his irresponsibility and cruelty, and if that means he has to leave, then he leaves. If he won't protect you and the kids, that leaves you.

Yes, he is gaslighting you. Glad you refuse to fall for it. I am concerned about his very nasty bullying and threatening of both you and his own parents. Frankly, he is behaving like an addict, and his wild number of affair partners and very cruel behaviour in protecting his drug (women) makes him sound an awful lot like a sex addict.

Again: Protect yourself and your children. He is not going to do that unless and until he hits bottom - which may never happen - and in the meantime, you can only expect more cruelty and selfishness and bullying and threats from him. You will almost certainly need Plan B to keep you and your children safe from him.

No not really because its not a threat designed to harm him. You are just stating your own healthy boundaries that you won't put up with bad treatment. You don't have to punish him with a swift disappearance.

On the contrary, you need time to prepare a proper Plan B. A bad one with holes in is worse than none at all.

Please keep in mind that this is not about tricking him making him or forcing his hand.

Unless he ENTHUSIASTICALLY is jumping through hoops to do everything you require, he's not repentant. You don't need to storm out and make him sorry.

A swift disappearance will not make him repentant. The 'stick' of Plan A merely needs you to state calmly that you will need your conditions met. Say 'this is what it will take to keep me in the marriage' if you get a negative answer say 'I have your answer then' and just carry on being reasonable and looking good until you can go into your plan B.

Check out my sig to prepare.