My husband and I have been married for 6 years. We have 2 children together, plus another (unplanned) on the way.
I thought we a great marriage until I was pregnant with our first child. He began going out with a friend to the bar almost every night and not always coming home. His excuse being that I couldn't drink didn't mean he couldn't. Obviously, as this behavior continued, our marriage got worse. I eventually found through our cell phone bill that he had been texting and calling a certain number in an almost obsessive fashion. When confronted, he told me I was crazy. I gathered more proof until I was told she was a lesbian who's girlfriend was pregnant and hey just discussed things about pregnancy. I eventually called her only to be that she didn't have sex with my husband and to never contact her again. I don't think she knew he was married as all contact with her stopped that day.
That was 5 years ago. There have been numerous women since. A few have admitted to having sex with him. He still denies that he's ever been unfaithful, saying that I'm crazy, jealous and that my snooping violates his privacy and that I ruined the trust. Never mind what I find in texts and facebook messages. Either they're just joking around or knew I'd be snooping and did it to teach me a lesson. If I look, he claims he'll make sure there is something there to hurt me. Obviously, I know this is BS and that all of these women are either a PA, EA or he hopes they're leading to one.
I finally kicked him out after I didn't come home until 4:30am and seeing FB messages telling a girl where to meet him. He came home, passed out and I found texts to his friend asking him to come out and be his wingman with this girl. He took the phone, deleted everything right in front of me and then told me none of those messages ever happened. That's how much he thinks of me.
My current pregnancy and hormone overload gave me the strength to make him leave. Of course, now life is just a huge drunken orgy for him. But he still tries to be sweet occasionally to keep me from divorce. He doesn't want a divorce, he wants his family sitting at home while he parties and cheats.
I have learned so much from this site and wish I found it sooner. I now know that we've never been able to get passed the first affair and that the cycle keeps continuing because I enable him with secrecy. I know that while the first affair was not my fault, we drifted apart from not meeting each other's needs and my reliance on the first 3 love busters whenever he hurt me.
After seeing his recent attempts to reconcile without change, I informed him of my need for the extraordinary precautions. This was met with denial and refusal. He claimed that most of it was BS, names a few women he doesn't talk to anymore (ignoring the big one that has become a huge issue in the past 6 months) and refused a poly and marriage recovery program because "he's been completely honest with me and either I believe him or I don't." I just said that I was sorry to hear that and exited the conversation. He replied that I had to stop my attitude about the gym (since January, he's joined a mixed martial arts gym where he takes classes 5 days a week during the only time he would be home while the kids are awake and I don't really have any way of knowing he's actually going - only that he spends the drive there and back texting other women - much like his work commute.) I refused to engage and told him that we can discuss any issues he likes once we get past this point, that the precautions are nonnegotiable and that there is no point in discussing anything else in our relationship until the actions that violate the marriage are over.
Is this completely hopeless? Can a serial cheater who's more after sex and attention rather than love become a committed family man? Should I just move onto Plan B at this point?
Did you ever plan A? Have you exposed the affairs, asked people to help influence him to knock it off and work on your marriage?
I think you are doing the right thing by demanding extraordinary precautions, your H has been very reckless with your young family.
How are you financially? Have you filed anything yet? Protect yourself and your children. Hugs to you today!
I exposed the affairs to both of our parents and our friends. Currently, may parents don't want me or the kids to have anything to do with him. His parents have made it quite clear to him that they are angry and disappointed, but he lies to them claiming that nothing ever happened and to mind their own business if they want to see there grandchildren. My friends are supportive of me by hating him and thinking I'm crazy to not immediately divorce him and his friends have denied that he's done anything wrong and attempt to support him by taking him out drinking and introducing him to other women, telling them what a good guy he is. It seems that most people don't understand why I wouldn't immediately divorce him and think less of me because of it.
Financially, I'm not good. I've been a stay at home mom for years. I have no income, no credit, nothing. I filed for child support a while back when he began using money as a means to punish me for questioning his fidelity. The children and I live on that along with anything his decides to give us. It's been like that since I was granted the support.
Getting rid of any friends who are not friends of the marriage would have to be an EP he would need to agree to, as well. Your friends, too...you could not move forward with people who are not willing to forgive him if you do.
How old are you guys?
It's a bit slow here today with the holiday, but hang on for other more experienced (in this area) posters during the beginning of the week. I honestly don't know what to tell you; I know you want to save your marriage, and the people here can help you to at least do your best to try to accomplish that. Your husband seems to need to grow up quite a bit, and you seem to need to get even tougher. So I'll go with just some more hugs for you, please take care of yourself.
I only just realized it was Easter, even while celebrating with the kids, it never dawned on me. That's just how messed up my mind has been lately.
I agree with we need to get rid of any friends like this. We've done this before, but eventually my husband just aligns himself with new, single guys to go out with.
I'm 32. My husband will be 30 in 2 weeks.
I appreciate all advice and thoughts. It's hard to be tough, but I know now that things will always come back to the situation I'm in now if I am always willing to move past his affairs when things start to seem better. He needs to fully commit and be willing to show that because he's very good at going back to fulfilling my ENs (for a while anyway) without completely stopping this undermining behavior.
Jennifer you're doing very well and welcome!
The EP regarding friends should not simply be that he cuts out all present friends, but that he never spends time with any friend who does not have your express approval. That's POJA.
Do a rock star Plan A but do it for you. Spend just a few weeks showing him EXACTLY what he's missing if he won't get on board. Use it to empower yourself. Have you read the carrot and stick of Plan A thread?
In just a few short weeks you'll be in Plan B and it will be his job to show whether or not he's man enough for the job.
Hugs to you.
Thanks indiegirl! I believe not spending time with any friends that do not have my approval would greatly relieve a lot of the worry I have.
My question is - should I ask for these precautions at this stage, when he won't even stop talking to some of the women and exists in a state of denial of any wrongdoing, or should I wait on the ones that are less relevant to the current crisis (I do have a few more that will need to be met if we were to reconcile) when he may be more receptive?
I did read the carrot and stick thread and have tried to follow it, but find it difficult not bursting into tears when he whips out his phone to start texting right in front of me. Pregnancy hormones are making me fragile, at best. I plan on getting back on antidepressants (I have a history of severe depression even without pregnancy in the mix) as soon as I see my ob/gyn next week so that I can stop breaking down and being overly emotional about the entire situation.
I find it easy to show him the person and home life he'll be missing, especially because he immediately responds by giving me the affection and attention that I've been missing. I just need to do it without forgetting what got us here in the first place and by being able to show my hurt without it becoming the hysterical, hyperventilating pregnant woman.
Okay, so maybe Plan A isn't going to be as easy for me as I thought.
I spent some time yesterday going over the EN questionnaire for my WS. One of his biggest ENs is admiration, something I haven't even attempted to meet in years. Thinking back, when I did meet it accidentally now and then, it was like dealing with a whole new person.
So, I texted him last night telling him how much I appreciate his taking the kids to his grandmothers, even though I knew he didn't want to, since the kids had such a great time. The conversation was friendly, including his saying that he's always thinking of me and missing me, that I'm always on his mind. The things I always hope for, but can never truly believe knowing he says anything to keep women interested in him.
So what to I do? When he asks how I'm feeling this morning, he gets told how much I miss him. That I'm sorry I made him leave, but the pain was just too bad. That I wished that he been committed to our marriage. And that now the pain is almost unbearable. My neediness has probably undermined any good my admiration did yesterday.
Any show of feelings on his end and I immediately bombard him with something that says I'm broken - you broke me - fix it, and that's just not going to work. I need to get a handle on this because I'm sure he's only hearing blame when my goal was to make him aware that I still cared deeply.
I'll hear from him on and off tonight while he's working and I'm just going to have to really evaluate my responses before sending them. Tomorrow will be the bigger issue since he's coming with me for an ultrasound and face to face usually ends in tears. I know I should not be expecting anything during Plan A, but it's like I have no control over my emotions or reactions.
So maybe this is all pointless in my case.
I wanted him to talk to me about our relationship. Not gonna lie, I was hoping for, well, hope. Regret. Remorse. Not this.
Apparently, all I do is talk down to him, go through his stuff and threaten to divorce him. He claims that he's inflicted no pain on me, that he has nothing to hide, but it's the point of it. That it's (cellphone, Facebook, email, etc) isn't mine, so leave it alone. That if he wants to go out, he will. And that he sees the kids every chance he gets, so stop bitching.
He went on to say that I'm his best friend, but honestly after the things I've said to him, he really doesn't know if he cares about losing me.
It seems like I'm jut leaving myself open for him to hurt me more here. I know I've reacted badly to his actions over the years. I know I've relied almost exclusively on the first 3 love busters. But should I really be treated like I deserve everything he did? That I caused it? That I should just shut up and deal with it if he does decide to come back someday?
I don't think I can handle much more of this.
Today was ultrasound day. I got a text last night asking if I still wanted my WS there. I told him that he's more than welcome, that despite whatever feelings he may have about me, this is about the baby.
Of course, in the usual fashion, the conversation quickly deteriorated into his claiming that I'm not alone and that he's always there for me and the girls despite the fact that I raise them all on my own with his seeing them maybe 2 hours a week. Yes, that should certainly help when I have a 3 year old that still doesn't sleep through the night and a newborn that needs feeding every 3 hours while I recover from a c-section. I did manage to phrase this in a non-attacking manner yesterday, but honestly, who does he think he's kidding here?
The ultrasound itself went smoothly. He met me there, everything looked good from a medical standpoint. When we were leaving, the doctor pulled me aside and told me to come back in 3 weeks instead of 10 weeks because he couldn't be sure all the parts of the heart had formed correctly. But not to worry. Yeah, because my anxiety isn't through the roof already. My WS thought this was a good time to bite me on the back of the neck. Seriously, WTH?
In the parking lot, he thanked me for allowing him to come, gave me an awkward hug and left. Then immediately texted me saying he's going to try for FMLA when I deliver the baby so he can be around to help. I told him I wasn't sure, but I thought you could only take it for children that are in your care full time and that he should research it more. This pissed him off, ranting about how unfair it was.
I left it alone, but honestly, if those aren't the rules, they should be. He's already inches away from getting fired because he always calls out. His job will not like it and definitely won't believe he's helping me with the kids and not just using the baby as an excuse to get time off to hang out with friends and go to bars. My father got him the job and while not his direct superior, the higher ups often go to my dad to find out if his ludicrous excuses for not making it in are even remotely true. Of course, my father does not lie for him and tells them that he's not in jail for unpaid child support, not in the hospital, or that I'm not so horribly sick that he's home helping me.
Annoyed. Confused. Still completely hurt. No idea how to deal with any of this.
What do you want from us?
More immediately, what do you want from him? Yeah, I know, a supportive, sober, hard-working, faithful husband-and-father, right?
Have you ever had it? Does ANYTHING in his past/present give you evidence that he can be that person, especially since "husband" to him changed from being the person who partied with you, and became instead (supposedly) the provider of support and stability for you and your children?
He's a child, friend - actually a spoiled child, at that. He's thirty years old and screwing up the job "daddy" got him? He's abandoned his family, drops in when he's sober ebough to act concerned, and make fanciful plans to assist you with the kids, like they're some kind of rented video-game.
You can't afford to raise the "child" that is your husband right now. You've got other responsibilities. I'm going to ask someone who's about three years past your current situation to stop in here. She might not choose to, but she might let someone post for her.
Honestly, NeverGuessed, I've stared at your first question of a half hour without being able to come up with an answer. I don't expect anyone to be able to fix this for me, or tell me what to do that will magically make things better. The most accurate response I can come up with is I needed a place where I could talk about what was going on without the immediate response of "he cheated, you divorce him, end of story" which is all I get from those in my life. Perhaps let me know when I'm doing something that's obviously going to make things worse. And honestly tell me from their own experiences (rather than the revenge mentality of just taking him for everything he's worth because he hurt me) if the situation is hopeless and cutting my losses is a better path than trying to save my marriage.
I probably would have responded that I wanted him to be a honest, faithful husband that put me and the kids above all others, but your words work just as well.
The thing is that he has been that person in the past. Not that doing it for months to a year at a time and then going back to this garbage is something to praise him for. It's one of those situations where when he's good, he's great, but when he's bad, it's hell. I believe that if it was always like it is now, if I never experienced those times of good then I wouldn't be trying to save my marriage - that I would have believed that as my family and friends do. Or maybe that has nothing to do with anything and I'm just scared to be on my own with the kids and a tiny bit of support seems like a better deal than no support at all. I really can't say at this point.
Everything you say is correct. He is the person you describe. And I really can't afford to raise him. It is effecting my health, my pregnancy, my ability to function day to day as a normal human being. Not even taking him into consideration, I just don't know how to make things better for me.
JIL,
Correct me if i am wrong, it sounds like your relationship with your WH was ok up until you started having children. Then things changed correct? Or did he have the party lifestyle prior to pregnancy only to see an escalation after pregnant?
How is your current support system? Friends, family, church? Has that slowly diminished over the years as well?
I know you hands a full, being pregnant with you 3rd child, having 2 little ones at home in addition to your WH who has become a rebelious spoiled teenager because you wont let him cake eat while you are doing all of work.
What would you like to accomplish?
Correct me if i am wrong, it sounds like your relationship with your WH was ok up until you started having children. Then things changed correct? Or did he have the party lifestyle prior to pregnancy only to see an escalation after pregnant?
My suspicion is that he's always been like this, but it was JenniferIsLost that matured while WH didn't.
I'd say Plan B is in your very near future, as it sounds as though any attempts at Plan A are wearing you out with the pregnancy only complicating matters. Removing yourself from his drama would probably help immensely. Too, your oldest (age 4 or 5?) is going to start picking up on this mess very fast and will need one sane parent around to protect him/her.
NW...that is why the statement of things were OK prior to pregnancy. I am sensing that there was many, small, subtle comments made here and there by WH.
NW...that is why the statement of things were OK prior to pregnancy. I am sensing that there was many, small, subtle comments made here and there by WH.
She's got the rose-colored glasses, probably. And you know how some guys just don't ever grow up. They become the 40 year olds hanging around in the underaged college bars. Family and kids just don't fit into that equation.
Logans_Run, Northwood is correct. He's always been into the partying lifestyle. Once I became pregnant, I was left at home while he continued and found "friends" to take my place. After having kids, I still like to go out every once in a while, but not daily or weekly and never without him and he seemed happy with only going when I could join him for a while. But now if I can't or won't join him, he just finds someone else.
My support system if almost non-existent. My relationship with my parents has become strained because we fight over him. Most of my close friends are no longer close, and the ones I have remained close to now live far away and we rarely get to actually see each other. I was never active in the church.
I want to make him realize all that he's giving up. I think he believes I'll always be waiting for him and that he can come strolling back after he's had his fun. I want him to know that isn't the case, that even though I love him and want him to be a good husband and father, that this is unacceptable behavior and can't even happen again. I don't want to give up, but I also don't want to have him come back and things stay as they are now either.
Northwood, I was afraid of that, but if Plan A isn't going to work here, I have no problem going to Plan B. As much as I want to save my marriage, I'd really like to avoid the constant hurt more. Plan A gives him the ability to mess with my mind, no hope one minute, hope the next, constantly back and forth.
"And you know how some guys just don't ever grow up. They become the 40 year olds hanging around in the underaged college bars. Family and kids just don't fit into that equation."
I know that's a real possibility. I'd hate for that to be the case, obviously, but you are probably completely right. That depresses the hell out of me. I knew guys like that. I can't be the wife of someone like that. I'm really going to have to give up the fantasy of a happy life with him, aren't I?
Looks like I'll be studying up on Plan B tonight.
I'm really going to have to give up the fantasy of a happy life with him, aren't I?
Well, unless your fantasy consists of what you're living with now then, yes, I'd consider your old/current marriage dead. Now, whether a new one emerges or you divorce is anyone's guess, but I suggested Plan B because it seemed that the emotional toil of Plan A just wasn't manageable.
That's your call, of course, as only you know what you can put up with.
As an aside, try to shore up the strained relationships with your family and friends. Having someone to actually talk to during this kind of crap really helps.
When are you due?
...I've stared at your first question a half hour...
And I've though about the wording of this about the same length of time.
I needed a place where I could talk about what was going on without the immediate response of "he cheated, you divorce him, end of story" which is all I get from those in my life. Perhaps let me know when I'm doing something that's obviously going to make things worse. And honestly tell me from their own experiences...if the situation is hopeless and cutting my losses is a better path than trying to save my marriage.
Not a bad summary of what you're going to get here. Progressively, Step 1 is Kill the Affair. Step 2 is Plan A, which tries to lure the WS back home. Step 3 is Plan B, which is cutting off all contact (commenced resulting from failure of either Step 1 or Step 2). Finally, dissolution, or Plan D(ivorce) is implemented.
I would doubt that WH's affair(s) are terminated; I would guess you believe that as well. The main way to kill affairs is complete exposure of the affair to the WH's universe of family and friends, usually requiring fairly accurate knowledge of the identity of the AP. (It seems your WH's ongoing AP is the harlot known as "No Responsibility". As destructive as she is to a marriage, she makes a lousy target for exposure.) Plan A therefore being impractical, I would suggest you should prepare for Plan B immediately.
Northwood, Strangely, I find the phrase "old/current marriage dead" comforting? Knowing that the only options are a new relationship or divorce sort of allows me to accept the massiveness of the situation better.
I think at this point, Plan B will be easier for me to deal with. I am in no position to control my emotions enough to make anything more than a weak attempt at Plan A. Is it possible/wise to do Plan B for a month to 6 weeks and then consider attempting Plan B once I've been put on anti-depressants and they've kicked in? Or is Plan B something I need to stick with completely once it's begun?
I will definitely attempt to put a lot more effort into my other relationships. I've been neglecting them while dealing with the drama of the last couple years and it's definitely my fault they aren't what they used to be.
I'm due 9/9, but will deliver a week or so earlier than that.
NeverGuessed, At this point, I'm certain the affairs are still ongoing. He swears he doesn't talk to any of them anymore, but he swears a lot of things. When I made him leave, he changed all his passwords so I haven't been able to make sure. I am still able to check his phone VM remotely (which really is less than effective since he only really texts and FB messages), but that's it. I have a keylogger installed on his laptop, but that's at his friend's house where he's been staying and isn't one of the nicer ones that emails you the results.
I'm really not sure how I could expose further. No Responsibility aside, there were numerous women, some PA, some EA, some new enough that I'm sure the women didn't even realize his end game yet, which makes it difficult to know who else to contact and with what information.
With this being the case, along with my lack of emotional control, I agree that Plan B seems like my only option.
Decided to continue with Plan A until I get my Plan B in place. In order to put less pressure on myself (and getting lots of hints from other threads on this board) I've decided to make Plan A last no longer than 1 month (even if I still haven't been able to get everything in place for Plan B) and to make it into a kind of game so instead of being hurt when I don't get a good response to my efforts, I can sort of laugh at myself or him. It's only been a day, but I feel better about it and WH has been strangely receptive to most of my admiration and SF flirty-ness. Either way, I didn't fall into the trap of fighting over money as he attempted, and my seeming understanding of his situation (that is selfish and totally his own fault) resulted in his dropping off the entire promised amount today. Knowing that not only can I go to Plan B, but having a definite date that this specific crazy will end is helping, I think.
I've been thinking more about Exposure. I messaged his mom/dad and got a supportive response. 3 of my remaining close friends were told, as well as WH's one friend (who was more out of wanting to blame him for his delight in playing wingman for my husband). I realize now that I haven't exposed far enough and my WH isn't feeling pressured by anyone to grow up and be a man. I need to expose to his brothers, extended family, and all other friends. My mistake was excluding our few "couple" friends as I have since learned that he's been telling them it is a mutual breakup and they feel bad for him as opposed to shocked at how he could chose partying and skanks over his pregnant wife and daughters.
I think I avoided exposing wide enough out of embarrassment. As if not telling people would somehow make it less real, make it like my husband hadn't done these things.
My question: If there a template on the boards somewhere for exposing multiple OW? I'm trying to write this in a way that doesn't sound crazy, but points out by name those I know he slept with, those I know he at least dated in some manner, those he had known inappropriate conversations with and those he's been in way too much contact with for anything considered appropriate. Being that his brothers and friends actually know some of these women, I want to ensure calling them out by name.
I should also mention that the bars and not coming home, right? Since the major problem is irresponsibility? Or maybe that he's close to losing his job? Or none of this and stick to just the women?
I should ensure they know I'm pregnant, right? I'm pretty sure he's been keeping that secret from anyone I don't regularly talk to.
I know to say I love him and want to fix things but can't while he's carrying on with these other women. But should I also add that I can't do that unless they (the family, friends) make it clear they don't condone the behavior and I'm sure that they won't appreciate knowing that many of them have been used as cover or excuses for his being gone at all hours of the day and night?
It's supposed to be short and to the point, but I can't seem to convey everything I think needs to be added in a length anyone will read fully.
From my posts, you've surely noticed I have a tendency to go on and on and on.
Jen, post what you've got and let others edit it for you.
(((Jen)))
I've been thinking more about Exposure. I messaged his mom/dad and got a supportive response. 3 of my remaining close friends were told, as well as WH's one friend (who was more out of wanting to blame him for his delight in playing wingman for my husband). I realize now that I haven't exposed far enough and my WH isn't feeling pressured by anyone to grow up and be a man. I need to expose to his brothers, extended family, and all other friends. My mistake was excluding our few "couple" friends as I have since learned that he's been telling them it is a mutual breakup and they feel bad for him as opposed to shocked at how he could chose partying and skanks over his pregnant wife and daughters.
I think I avoided exposing wide enough out of embarrassment. As if not telling people would somehow make it less real, make it like my husband hadn't done these things.
My question: If there a template on the boards somewhere for exposing multiple OW? I'm trying to write this in a way that doesn't sound crazy, but points out by name those I know he slept with, those I know he at least dated in some manner, those he had known inappropriate conversations with and those he's been in way too much contact with for anything considered appropriate. Being that his brothers and friends actually know some of these women, I want to ensure calling them out by name.
These should work.
Exposure Letter Samples Facebook Exposure Letters
From my posts, you've surely noticed I have a tendency to go on and on and on.
That's ok, but keep it to two or three paragraphs to avoid any eyes glazing over. I do like your idea of listing each and every known OW by name.
As Letty suggested, post it here and we can help you out if you like.
While working on my Exposure letter, my WH texted to let me know he may need to borrow money for gas next week since he gave me most of his paycheck to cover the kids school. Borrow from me, the stay at home mom with no income or savings.
Seems he never changed his bank password. I found that he received more than twice as much pay this week than he claimed. That he has hundreds of dollars left after giving me money (that I'm sure he's planning on using to drink at the UFC fight he's going to this weekend with his crappy friends). I also found that while he's been swearing he hasn't gone out to the bar in weeks, that he spent over $150 at one bar this past Sunday and there was a charge at another bar from Friday - both within spitting distance of where I live.
Should I confront him that I know he's been lying to me about money and bars? And most likely women as well? I'm sure this isn't Plan A, but should I really let him continue to believe that he can lie to me and attempt to take advantage of me financially with his sob stories?
Still going forward with the exposure, but not sure what to do with this new information. It's a wonder I haven't already attacked him with it.
Get a lawyer and file emergency custody and alimony. Have the bank accounts frozen.
Protect your kids and yourself ASAP!!!
Get a lawyer and file emergency custody and alimony. Have the bank accounts frozen.
Protect your kids and yourself ASAP!!!
Ditto!!
I can't afford a lawyer. I have absolutely no income except for the 232/week. I have no savings, no credit, no assets. The state legal services department have told me that I do not qualify for free or low cost legal services given the amount of money my husband makes (since we aren't divorced). The bank account that he gets his paycheck deposited into is in his name only.
I don't mean for these to be excuses, but I honestly don't know how to get help in my situation.
Many lawyer have either a free or a very low cost consult fee. Find the best and toughest one you can find then call and ask for how much a consult is. Many only charge you the bigger $$ once you retain them. But this can get the ball rolling.
Do it yourself, though you will have to spend time nutting it out yourself. Or will a lawyer take you w/husbands income paying the bill? Do you have any free legal aid in your area?
Is there anyone here who has been a sahm who can give advice? (ThAts an open q to the forum)
Logans_Run, I had a free consult in September of 2010 with a lawyer when I was considering divorce due to the last round of affairs, lies and money withholding. He advised me to file for child support on my own (which I did and is why I at least get the 232/week) and to apply for free legal aid.
Legal aid turned me down, as they take very few divorce cases and said that even if I went to live with my parents, they'd take their incomes into account instead of my husbands because I "do not contribute" to the household. When I said that if I didn't live with either, my children and I would be homeless, the clerk basically inferred that only then would they possibly be able to help me.
Mmm, what about community aid? When I lived in la there was a comm group there .... what were they called? - that was staffed by paralegals who could guide you, though not rep you. Can I ask what state u live in?
Letty, I'm Googling right now trying to figure out how to do that (file on my own) in my state (NJ), but am just not understanding what I find at all. Most information is just telling me to get a lawyer.
I'll definitely check around to see if I can find a lawyer that will require my husband to pay (which would be a perfect answer).
I told Logans_Run above about my experience with Legal Aid.
Letty, not sure about community aid. I'll Google that too. I did figure that if I even had to file for divorce I would go through Divorce Center, which is basically a group of paralegals that file your paperwork for you and costs 250 up front and another 400 or so at the time the divorce is finalized. They only work out as long as your spouse does not contest the divorce and what you are asking for in the divorce. But knowing my husband, he wouldn't believe he could afford an attorney to fight it and would either sign it or ignore it (meaning either way I would get the divorce and all I asked for in the paperwork).
Mmm, I don't want to pepper you w/stuff that won't help, but this looks like a q&a site. I know it says " divorce" and were not talking divorce, but getting a custody & support order is a legal matter, so maybe they can help? This page is specifically for
http://www.womansdivorce.com/divorce-stay-at-home-mom.html
Would it be possible to borrow some money from a family member?
Letty, I read the link and the advice was to get an attorney. And to get a job. My original plan (before the separation) was to take classes this summer, have the baby this fall, take the remaining classes this winter, and then pass the CNA exam so that I could go back to work by summer next year. I could probably borrow the money for the classes (it was only a couple hundred) and still go, but for now, no one is willing to hire a visibly pregnant woman for any position.
Logans_Run, Not any large amount. I've been borrowing from my parents on occasion to keep the kids in school when my husband doesn't pay his half. They've also been providing me with a car (husband left the one that doesn't run for me and the kids to use), and most of our food and bills. I doubt they'll give anymore especially since I wouldn't be able to begin repaying them for over a year. I'm not close with my brother (who has a new wife, house and baby on the way anyway) and the only other family I'm close with is my in-laws who aren't well off financially either.
OK, I didn't find much information about alimony or custody without a lawyer in my state (never mind trying to find a way to prevent my husband from blowing all the money he earns on booze and women), but I did just spend the last hour applying online for food stamps and family assistance (basically welfare/child care/job training/etc.). I figure even if they deny me that much, I can inquire on how to proceed money/custody wise on my own during the interview.
If nothing else, my in-laws spent years on welfare back when they first married and will lose their minds knowing that their son who makes over $100,000 a year has made it so his pregnant wife and daughters have to get government assistance because of his need to "party."
Ag, I'm sorry. I thought it would be more helpful than *that!*
There has got to be a way for you to get a court order without beggaring your children. I'm so sorry you're going through this. Will be thinking of you, and brainstorming. Keeps my mind off my own switch!
If nothing else, my in-laws spent years on welfare back when they first married and will lose their minds knowing that their son who makes over $100,000 a year has made it so his pregnant wife and daughters have to get government assistance because of his need to "party."
Well, this begs the question:
Why haven't you told them this?
Jennifer, make sure you tell them that your husband has left you destitute. What may happen is that they'll award you assistance and then go after him for child support on your behalf. That's the way it works in Texas anyway. You might also contact The United Way for help. They have lots of great programs!
Thanks, Letty. I appreciate anything anyone can come up with.
TigerWes, I exposed his affairs to his parents and believe I mentioned the money withholding, but can't be absolutely sure at this point. They do know that I filed for and still receive child support since 2010. I guess I never quite realized I should have been telling them more. Anytime I have exposed things in the past to them, my WH often mocks me for telling on him to his mommy, so I guess I had just gave them the bare minimum of details to avoid further conflict. Obviously, I need to just do it because while he claims they have no influence over him and often threatens them with withholding their grandchildren if they judge his choices, they are quite often my biggest supporters when it comes to what he does and my need to do what's best for me in the kids. I'll be sure to make sure they are aware.
princessmeggy, looking up The United Way now. Thanks for the suggestion. I plan on telling them exactly what's going on, cause you never know what they may be able to do or who they may be able to put me in contact with. At least I already get child support or we'd be totally out of luck right now. And to think, up until the day I kicked him out, my husband was trying to get me to cancel it claiming only then would he put me on his checking account. Considered it at the time, but I knew his track record and this ended up being the one thing I never fell for.
Jil, do full exposure. I know no one wants to - you're worried about the embarrassment, and that people will say its your fault, but really, it IS your best tool, and you will be pleasantly surprised. Honestly. Everyone needs to know the man is a chap liar who is faithless to his family. Dragging his behaviour into the light will help it dry up like a vampire.
princessmeggy, looking up The United Way now. Thanks for the suggestion. I plan on telling them exactly what's going on, cause you never know what they may be able to do or who they may be able to put me in contact with. At least I already get child support or we'd be totally out of luck right now. And to think, up until the day I kicked him out, my husband was trying to get me to cancel it claiming only then would he put me on his checking account. Considered it at the time, but I knew his track record and this ended up being the one thing I never fell for.
Please take care of you and your pregnancy, that's your priority.
Keep moving forward and you're doing fantastic with all things considered.
There has to be some sort of assistance for someone in your situation.
Will his parents put pressure on him?
Letty, That's my plan now and I'm actually happy about it. Perhaps it's a revenge tactic at this point rather than anything else, but I'm so sick of people thinking I'm doing great, that I wanted this too, and that he's a good guy who did the best he could to make it work.
I've wrote up a list of people to expose to (expanding much farther than I originally did) and I'm currently writing up a list of the OW (sadly, I need a list to keep them all straight). No idea how people managed to expose before Facebook, but I'd imagine there were way less affairs pre-facebook to expose. Once I get all the OW names together (because seriously at this point, I actually forget some of them) I'm going to finish up my exposure letter and post it here for critique.
I'm so sick of hiding like this is something I should be ashamed of.
You're right - its not YOUR shame.
Good that you'll post the letter here.
I don't like to add piles onto your already large pile, but were any of his OW married?
Also some clips on multiple affairs.
Radio clip on multiple affairs Another radio clip
BrainHurts, That's my complete goal now. Any fantasy of recovery is very far on the back burner until I can deal with this current situation. Yet another revelation about lies and money and bars seems to have slapped me out of any denial I was in.
His parent have in the past. When I was pregnant in 2007, I told his mother all about his EA. She tore into him like a tornado (her first marriage was to a lying, cheating abusive man that took her years to escape from) and he seemed shamed enough to be good to his family for about a year and a half. I again told her what was going on with both women and money in 2010, she helped me out financially when she could and again attacked him. That time he threatened that she would never see her grandkids again if she didn't mind her own business. She's been less vocal since. This time, I went to his step-dad, who was supportive, said all the right things and said his mom would call me the next day. I haven't heard from them since and it's been about 6 weeks. I've tried explaining that his threats don't mean anything because I will always bring the kids over whenever they ask, but I think she's still fearful of him at this point.
BrainHurts, Not that I'm aware of. All of the women who I've learned about or who have confessed to me have all been single, my age or younger. About half with kids of their own, but not a one with even a boyfriend.
Listening to the clips now. Thanks.
He has already left the house correct and your preparing for Plan B?
Is your name still on the bank accounts? If so, can't you move money?
BrainHurts, Yes, he has left the house and I am preparing for Plan B.
My name has not been on any of his bank accounts in the last year. We had a joint account at my bank to make transfers from his to mine easier, but when his individual account was closed because he overdrew the account too often, the joint account was never used and I eventually closed to for fear of his being able to withdrawn from my account to that account. He then went to another bank, getting an account that was only in his name.
My potential letter to friends and family:
Dear friends and family,
I am writing you this message because you are an important person in the lives of xxxx and I. As some of you know, xxxxx and I have recently separated, which has shattered my heart. Numerous affairs, both sexual and emotional on xxxx�s part have led us to the point we are currently at. I was saddened to have discovered that in the past 2 years, he�s had sexual relationships with OW1 in March 2012, OW2 in the summer of 2011, and OW3 in the fall of 2010. He also lead OW4 to believe he was single and dating only her beginning in May of 2010 and is still actively pursuing her. He has also engaged in sexual text messaging with OW5, OW6 and OW7, all of which seemed delighted that I found out. OW7 is still in hourly contact with him. I believe desires this separation is so that he can carry on his affairs without my interference, as he continues to lie about both his involvement with these women to me and his involvement with me to them.
As many of you know, I am currently pregnant with our 3rd daughter together. I am beside myself with grief over the destruction of our family due to his infidelity. My children suffer as he uses their school money to fund his nights spent in bars trying to impress these and other women. He may brag about making over 100K a year, but my children and I have been forced to apply for food stamps and welfare. I want our marriage to recover from this, but that cannot be accomplished while he hides his actions, using many of you as cover when he is with them. I want to stay married, but this behavior must end. If you have any influence on my husband, please do what you can to get him to stop this dangerous activity, which could very well endanger my health and the health of our unborn child.
As our friends and family, I am asking that you use your influence with xxxx to persuade him to end his party lifestyle and try to work on our marriage. Please support him in doing the right thing. Please support our marriage.
I would so appreciate your support and prayers.
Warmest regards,
Jennifer
Thoughts?
I'm adding an extra note asking for bis brothers/cousins to share this with any family they believe could be influential. I'm also asking his 2 close friends from work to share it with other coworkers because he loves the acceptance the "gang" gives him. And to this one friend he really looks up to, to ask him and his long time girlfriend if they could say anything to him that could make him see how wrong this all is.
I hope in adding this, they will realize I am not asking them to be part of a secret, but to both say something to him and spread the news to anyone I forgot or couldn't find on Facebook.
Okay Jennifer, I'm going to let others address your exposure letter and I want to talk to you about your legal/financial stuff. I just read through your entire thread. Your WH isn't going to do the right thing until he is forced. I'm concerned about your pregnancy and your health. You're about to launch a grenade with your exposure letter so I want you to be prepared for the fallout.
Part of that preparation is to file for divorce. I know that's not what you want, but if you file first, you will have more control over the case. When you file, you need to ask for temporary orders, which will basically stop him from squandering the marital assets. You can always cancel the divorce later if you reconcile. But sweetie, those babies need you to fight for them.
You may be able to fill out the divorce forms yourself and then file a pauper's affidavit to avoid having to pay the filing fee. Do you guys own any property? Have a lot of assets? If not, then your divorce pleading shouldn't be too complicated. Plus, in your state you can file on the grounds of adultery and emotional distress. Don't tell him that you're doing this or even about MB!
I just don't want you to be subjected to much more drama and being prepared legally will help, especially when you go to Plan B. Plan B requires a lot of thought, planning and fortitude. It will be extremely hard but so worth the peace that comes with it.
I have to get to bed now, but please think about these things.
hi jen. that looks good to me, though i may put a paragraph break at � want our marriage to recover from this..." so it stands alone and clear. however, the next bit goes with the preceeding paragraph, so maybe rethink that bit?
"...stamps and welfare, while he hides his actions, using many of you as cover when he is with you."
"i want our marriage to recover from this; i want to stay married, but this behaviour must end..."
what do others think?
princessmeggy, I understand what you're saying about my health, my kids and needing to prepare, but my court date to get the divorce finalized if I go through Divorce Center will be about 8 weeks from the day I fill out the paperwork. I would be prepared to go that route and risk having to make the decision earlier than I feel comfortable with, but I will lose my health insurance the day that day and I have 4 more months to go pus recovery from the surgery. With the short time frame, they do not file for temporary orders either.
If I do find a lawyer that will request my husband pay my legal fees as part of the settlement (which I will begin searching for today), the temporary orders and filing without a set end date will be much more possible for me.
We have no property and no assets. Really, it's just us, the kids, and my husband's paycheck which he spends completely every week. From what the lawyer I saw in 2010 said, adultery will cost me thousands of dollars to prove. Emotional distress may be easier, will have to look into that. I have yet been able to find NJ divorce forms online, but will continue to search for them as well.
I made the change Letty suggested. The letter now looks like this:
Dear friends and family,
I am writing you this message because you are an important person in the lives of xxxx and I. As some of you know, xxxxx and I have recently separated, which has shattered my heart. Numerous affairs, both sexual and emotional on xxxx�s part have led us to the point we are currently at. I was saddened to have discovered that in the past 2 years, he�s had sexual relationships with OW1 in March 2012, OW2 in the summer of 2011, and OW3 in the fall of 2010. He also lead OW4 to believe he was single and dating only her beginning in May of 2010 and is still actively pursuing her. He has also engaged in sexual text messaging with OW5, OW6 and OW7, all of which seemed delighted that I found out. OW7 is still in hourly contact with him. I believe desires this separation is so that he can carry on his affairs without my interference, as he continues to lie about both his involvement with these women to me and his involvement with me to them.
As many of you know, I am currently pregnant with our 3rd daughter together. I am beside myself with grief over the destruction of our family due to his infidelity. My children suffer as he uses their school money to fund his nights spent in bars trying to impress these and other women. He may brag about making over 100K a year, but my children and I have been forced to apply for food stamps and welfare, while he hides his actions, using many of you as cover when he is with them.
I want our marriage to recover from this; I want to stay married, but this behavior must end. If you have any influence on my husband, please do what you can to get him to stop this dangerous activity, which could very well endanger my health and the health of our unborn child.
As our friends and family, I am asking that you use your influence with xxxx to persuade him to end his party lifestyle and try to work on our marriage. Please support him in doing the right thing. Please support our marriage.
I would so appreciate your support and prayers.
Warmest regards,
Jennifer
Any other change suggestions?
This time, I went to his step-dad, who was supportive, said all the right things and said his mom would call me the next day. I haven't heard from them since and it's been about 6 weeks. I've tried explaining that his threats don't mean anything because I will always bring the kids over whenever they ask, but I think she's still fearful of him at this point.
Then you go visit them
in person and ask for their help. Be sure to make regular visits so the kids can see their grandparents (if you and the kids are agreeable, of course).
I tried to "red" some of my suggestions, but I think you'll get the idea...
I made the change Letty suggested. The letter now looks like this:
Dear friends and family,
I am writing you this message because you are an important person in the lives of xxxx and I. As some of you know, xxxxx and I have recently separated, which has shattered my heart. Numerous affairs, both sexual and emotional on xxxx�s part have led us to the point we are currently at.
I was saddened to discover that, in the past two years, he's been involved with at least seven other women:
1. OW1- sexual relationship in March 2012
2. OW2- sexual relationship in the summer of 2011
3. OW3- sexual relationship in the fall of 2010
4. OW4- relationship beginning in May 2010
5. OW5- texting illicit (sexual) messages beginning ___
6. OW6- texting illicit (sexual) messages beginning ___
7. OW7- texting illicit (sexual) messages beginning ___
Sadly, these are the women that I know of and, when I confronted him, he seemed delighted that I found out.
I believe he desires this separation is so that he can carry on his affairs without my interference, as he continues to lie about both his involvement with these women to me and his involvement with me to them.
As many of you know, I am currently pregnant with our third daughter together. I am beside myself with grief over the destruction of our family due to his infidelity.
My children suffer as he uses their school money to fund his nights spent in bars trying to impress these and other women. Over the past month, he has spent ___ in bars and other places furthering his affairs. He may brag about making over 100K a year, but my children and I have been forced to apply for food stamps and welfare, while he hides his actions, using many of you as cover when he is with them.
I want our marriage to recover from this; I want to stay married, but this behavior must end. If you have any influence on my husband, please do what you can to get him to stop this dangerous activity, which could very well endanger my health and the health of our unborn child.
As our friends and family, I am asking that you use your influence with xxxx to persuade him to end his party lifestyle and try to work on our marriage. Please support him in doing the right thing. Please support our marriage.
I would so appreciate your support and prayers.
Warmest regards,
Jennifer
Any other change suggestions?
Northwood, that's what I did the first 2 times, and it was more effective. I should have done it again this time, but I guess I was ashamed to make that same visit a 3rd time.
I'll be over in their neighborhood later on today, so I'll stop by and talk to them about what's really been going on. Then immediately send out the Exposure letter because his mother will not keep the info to her self (which is good) and I want everyone to know at the same time.
Northwood, that's what I did the first 2 times, and it was more effective. I should have done it again this time, but I guess I was ashamed to make that same visit a 3rd time.
I'll be over in their neighborhood later on today, so I'll stop by and talk to them about what's really been going on. Then immediately send out the Exposure letter because his mother will not keep the info to her self (which is good) and I want everyone to know at the same time.
Very good, hope they are helpful.
I'd edit that letter to "list" the other women. Something about numbering them (see my post above) makes it stand out.
Northwood, great suggestions. I will change it to a list format for the women.
He wasn't delighted. He denied everything. Women who confessed sex to me were liars. He claims the texts were only jokes (as if that would even be acceptable if I were to ever believe such a blatant lie). The text women were the ones who were delighted I found out. Every one of them were purposely cruel to me actually seeming to take pleasure in destroying a marriage (unlike the very repentant women who admitted to sexual relationships with him).
I don't have an actual dollar amount for what was spent in on bars and such in the last month. He usually withdrawals cash for that type of thing, but must have believed I had no way of seeing his bank account anymore, hence the 2 recent charges.
I'm also not quite sure when the text relationships began.
I don't have an actual dollar amount for what was spent in on bars and such in the last month. He usually withdrawals cash for that type of thing, but must have believed I had no way of seeing his bank account anymore, hence the 2 recent charges.
That's ok, just rephrase it to say "Only this weekend, he spent ___ in bars while me and the kids have had to apply for food stamps in order to afford groceries." Something like that.
I'm also not quite sure when the text relationships began.
Then leave it off. I think the point will be made with or without that information.
You're doing great, by the way. He's going to be humiliated when this letter hits, and that's the best thing you can do if this mess is ever going to get turned around.
Have you gone one-by-one in the phone book calling attorneys to see if they can help someone that cannot pay? I'd start with women first--you may get some more sympathetic to your situation.
Ok, made the changes:
Dear friends and family,
I am writing you this message because you are an important person in the lives of xxxx and I. As some of you know, xxxxx and I have recently separated, which has shattered my heart. Numerous affairs, both sexual and emotional on xxxx�s part have led us to the point we are currently at.
I was saddened to discover that, in the past two years, he's been involved with at least seven other women:
1. OW1- sexual relationship in March 2012
2. OW2- sexual relationship in the summer of 2011
3. OW3- sexual relationship in the fall of 2010
4. OW4- relationship beginning in May 2010
5. OW5- texting illicit (sexual) messages
6. OW6- texting illicit (sexual) messages
7. OW7- texting illicit (sexual) messages
Sadly, these are just the women that I have proof of, but due to his lies I believe there may be many more.
I believe he desires this separation so that he can carry on his affairs without my interference, as he continues to lie about both his involvement with these women to me and his involvement with me to them.
As many of you know, I am currently pregnant with our 3rd daughter together. I am beside myself with grief over the destruction of our family due to his infidelity. My children suffer as he uses their school money to fund his nights spent in bars trying to impress these and other women. Only this past weekend, he has spent over $200 in bars furthering his affairs. He may brag about making over 100K a year, but my children and I have been forced to apply for food stamps and welfare, while he hides his actions, using many of you as cover when he is with these women.
I want our marriage to recover from this; I want to stay married, but this behavior must end. If you have any influence on my husband, please do what you can to get him to stop this dangerous activity, which could very well endanger my health and the health of our unborn child.
As our friends and family, I am asking that you use your influence with xxxx to persuade him to end his party lifestyle and try to work on our marriage. Please support him in doing the right thing. Please support our marriage.
I would so appreciate your support and prayers.
Warmest regards,
Jennifer
Any other thoughts?
Thanks, Northwood. It's been a struggle but I'm feeling pretty empowered by the letter writing process. I'm absolutely sure he would have been mortified by this type of information getting out at the beginning of our marriage, but at this point, after repeated fights with both me and his mother, he seems completely uncaring of what other people think of him anymore. Too many fun single guys patting him on the back for being able to screw around so efficiently I'd imagine.
I never thought to just cold call everyone in the phone book. I have the time and it won't cost me anything, so great suggestion.
I'm adding these as a PS to certain letters. Seem like a good idea?
Family: Please share this letter with any other family members and friends that may be able to help.
Friend (sort of his idol): I know xxxx looks up to you and would really appreciate if you and long time girlfriend could say anything to him that may cause him see how wrong this is.
2 Close Work Friends: Please share this letter with others at work who may be able to make a difference.
One more thing - when sending out the letters, should I also send a note to OW1, his most recent conquest? She's the only one I haven't spoken with and I believe she has no idea he's married.
Please share this letter with any other family members and friends that may be able to help.
Yes to adding that to all of the letters.
Friend (sort of his idol): I know xxxx looks up to you and would really appreciate if you and long time girlfriend could say anything to him that may cause him see how wrong this is.
2 Close Work Friends: Please share this letter with others at work who may be able to make a difference.
The above would, then, be redundant if you've asked for it to be shared in all letters.
One more thing - when sending out the letters, should I also send a note to OW1, his most recent conquest? She's the only one I haven't spoken with and I believe she has no idea he's married.
OW may or may not know that he's married, so I'd be very hesitant to consider her an ally. Consider her your enemy for the time-being.
I'd send her something like this, if you haven't already spoken in person--which I'd suggest:
OW1, I will not put up with you being involved with my husband. You are coming between me, my husband, my kids, our extended families and are going to be in some serious sh*t if you don't stay the hell away from us. Everyone in the family knows about you so don't even BEGIN to believe that your little fling with my husband stands a snowball's chance in hell of going anywhere. You'll never be welcome and will always be seen as the home wrecker that you are. Back the eff off [but spell the eff word].No reason to be polite to sluts, in my opinion.
And you know what to expect with this, right?
If your husband starts spouting off
1. How could you do this?
2. I was going to work on it but not NOW!
3. If you loved me you ____.
4. It's all your fault!
Don't take the bait and argue with him, he wants you to get defensive about it, as though you did something wrong. You could just point out...
"Well, it sounds like they're upset about your behavior. If they have any questions about your adultery, they are free to give me a call. I already told them that, though." Then disengage and go about your way.
Some of your targets may respond with criticism. They're lost causes, then, but worthy of a response:
"I'm sorry to hear that you support my husband's adultery and won't stand up for me and the kids. Give me a call sometime if you change your mind" [and hang up if this is by phone].
I never thought to consider her my ally, just that I stood no benefit by keeping quiet and allowing her to continue to believe my husband was actually single. As I understand it, she's yet another victim to his friends raving what a good guy he is without any indication of me or the kids sitting at home.
I'd actually considered something more along the lines of "In case you weren't aware when you were having sex with xxxx on March 2nd, he's married. I was at home, pregnant, caring for our 2 daughters while you and he disrespected our marriage, six times I believe it was."
Not forceful enough? I'm sort of not comfortable attacking someone who may have also been completely lied to.
You mentioned a junker car that your WH left. Is it titled in your name only?
Not forceful enough? I'm sort of not comfortable attacking someone who may have also been completely lied to.
You don't know what she knows.
Say she knows, then by attacking she gets the point that you're not one to be messed with.
Say she doesn't know, then by attacking she gets the point that he's married and that you're not one to be messed with.
Either way, you aren't going to be friends with her so torch that freaking bridge.
Thanks for the warning. I've been reading lots of threads on this board and know he's going to immediately verbally attack me as viciously as possible. I figured I'd just respond with "I'm sorry your upset I won't hide your affairs anymore."
Great response for anything those I message may say. I had planned on ignoring it and crying here, but that seems like a good idea. And then crying here.
The car is in my name only
Attacking here scares the hell out of me. Probably because I've had his women threaten and stalk me in the past, even when I came at them as heartbroken as opposed to aggressive. I suppose you're right that I won't gain anything my making her like or pity me though.
The car is in my name only
...and you have one on loan from your parents, right?
Attacking here scares the hell out of me. Probably because I've had his women threaten and stalk me in the past, even when I came at them as heartbroken as opposed to aggressive. I suppose you're right that I won't gain anything my making her like or pity me though.
Then if she (or anyone) starts acting like that, you involve the police and start looking at restraining orders. Most like to make a big fuss and accuse you of slander/libel, threatening legal action, but I've never heard of one that actually followed through.
What's she going to do? Call the police and say "Mean old JIL is yelling at me because I'm screwing her husband! Make her stop!"
Let her if she's that stupid.
Tell her if she doesn't knock it off you'll have her sorry [censored] dragged into court to give testimony in your divorce hearing about how she broke up your family. That's cribbed from something that MelodyLane posts...she has a better way of phrasing it, but you get the idea.
Yes, I am borrowing my father's truck.
Yes, I am borrowing my father's truck.
Then...
Mom/Dad, I'm trying to get some money together to hire an attorney to help out with this mess that WH left me with. He's blowing all of our money in bars and I've applied for food stamps. I really appreciate you loaning me your truck and helping me out with groceries and bills, it's been a godsend and I couldn't have made it without you.
You remember that old car that WH left? Would you be opposed to me trying to sell it to get some cash while still borrowing your truck? I'm just out of ideas and trying to get me and the kids in a better position here. The idea being that you don't want your parents to think you're selling a car for "blow" money while they are helping you out with their own car and money.
Your right. I've had women in the past threaten to involve the police or DHS in the attempts to punish me and try to get my kids taken away. Always put the fear of god in me and I backed off.
I've told them I'd force them to give testimony in the divorce and they've actually stated they would flat out lie or not show up. These are some of the trashiest women I've ever encountered.
As Melody and other vets always stated:
If the AP wants to volunteer to make even MORE public the exposure by involving the police, courts, others...then go ahead and let them. Let them cry to a judge how harsh YOU are being because your fighting for your family while they are engaged in adultery with your spouse...laughable...
Northwood, I was really hopping to get the car fixed (should only cost about $200) so I wouldn't have to use theirs anymore. Selling it as is will only get me a maximum of about $800.
I'm sending the letters. Exciting and terrifying all at the same time.
Good for you, JIL! I promise you won't regret it.
Jen,
When I was in law school, it had legal clinics staffed by law students who were under the supervision and guidance of a practicing lawyer/staff member. The clinic offered free legal services to those who could afford it. This gave me the idea to do a Yahoo search for law schools in NJ. Seton Hall's law school has a Family Law Clinic!!! Here is the description of what they offer:
The Family Law Clinic provides free legal services to individuals needing representation in a wide variety of family law matters. The caseload may include both contested and uncontested divorces; establishment, modification and enforcement of child and spousal support; custody and visitation cases; international child abduction cases; adoptions; and litigation on behalf of victims of domestic violence. Students may also serve as court-appointed law guardians for children in termination of parental rights cases and custody and visitation cases.
The work includes interviewing, investigation, legal research, motion practice, discovery, negotiation, preparation of lay and expert witnesses, contested and uncontested trials and hearings, oral argument of motions, and the preparation of trial and appellate briefs. Students work under the supervision of the clinical professors, but assume primary responsibility for their assigned cases, including court appearances.
The Rutgers Cambden Campus also has a Child and Family Law Clinic.
To contact either school's clinic, I would just call the law school's main number and asked to be transfered to the Family Law Clinic.
Also, lawyers are encouraged to do pro bono (gratis) work for those who can't afford legal services and some states even require that lawyers have a certain number of pro bono hours a year. Here is a link to various pro bono organizations in NJ.
http://www.legalhandle.com/pro-bono-attorneys-New-Jersey.html
Brits_Brat, That is absolutely wonderful information. Thank you so much. Never even heard of a law clinic. It t gives me a great amount of hope. Thanks again.
Ok, so that was just the most bizarre experience of my entire life. My WS did not react at all the way he was supposed to. After first I got a text message asking if I emailed a bunch of people about him cheating. I said yes. He asked why. I said because I'm not hiding your actions anymore. He started calling and texting like crazy, which I had to ignore because I was driving. Things like we need to talk now and There's nothing to hide I haven't done any of that. I responded that I would call him when I was home.
He was waiting for me when I got home. I really expected him to go off on me. Instead, he acted like it was sort of a joke. He didn't care about any of it and just wanted to know why I was lying to people. He actually asked to see my proof, as if I hadn't shown him things for years that he explained away.
He then started talking about how he was on his way over before his brother told him about the message anyway. How he just wanted to hang out. How he wants to spend time with me. I kept returning the conversation to the issues at hand. Why are you here? Why do you lie about it when I already know? I know that I'm fighting for my marriage here, but what are you trying to accomplish by being here?
I told him flat out that while I loved him and didn't want a divorce, I will divorce him if he continues to not care how his actions effect me. I will not stand for female friends, texting and messaging, going out all night with a bunch of single guys who think cheating is funny. If they don't support my marriage, they have no place in my life. Things need to be completely transparent. No accounts I don't have passwords to. No objections to my being able to see every aspect of his life. Married people don't hide things, I've always allowed him to look at everything of mine.
I got a myriad of excuses, but there was no real arguing. A few gems include "Like I told you before, if I'm going to continue to be accused of cheating, I will eventually cheat on you" and "If I want to go out with my friends, you are just going to deal with it." I made it clear that there is no reason to threaten me with things he had already done and that I have no reason to sit at home waiting for him. That if he chooses these friends over me and my marriage, that was absolutely his decision. I just wouldn't be here to come home to.
He can't change his number (that all the women have) because it will be inconvenient for work. Tough. It's something I need.
He'll delete his women friends if I delete my male friends. Absolutely fine with me. He laughed like he thought I wouldn't do it.
He only got loud and angry when I continued to call him on lying about the cheating. Every excuse and denial was met with, "I am absolutely sure you are lying. Lying is what will make me leave forever. The truth is the only thing I'll accept."
He got mad about how I "hear something and automatically believe the worst in him." I named a few women that I have no proof of, only rumors. I said that I am only concerned with what I can prove at this point. If you decide to work on our marriage, rumors won't be an issue with the precautions we would need to take.
He just totally threw me off my guard. By wanting to actually take about it at all. By being friendly. By wanting to hug me, touch me, give me a foot massage. I was ready for anger. Not this.
Held my ground, stayed away from LBs. Allowed him to show his affection without allowing it to cloud my judgement. A few tears were shed, but it was minimal and I always stayed in control of my words.
The conversation ended with his having to go to work. He suggested we continue the conversation through text and calls on his breaks. That gave me a little hope. And then I just got a text message about my chest. Not sure what game he's playing at.
Not sure what game he's playing at.
Yikes. I'm not sure either, I'm just glad you can see it for what it is: A game. Good for you, sticking up for yourself.
At some point, you're going to need a poly to make sure you have all the truth that YOU need. I don't know if now would be a good time to bring it up, but if he insists he has done nothing wrong still, maybe you can float that idea to him. Thoughts, vets?
Yup from the wayward script.
He's trying to gaslight you and make you think you're crazy.
Please Explain Gaslighting. Good job on exposure. I strongly suggest to not play his games or he'll wear you down.
Just keep repeating "I will do what it takes to save my marriage, you want a cookie?" walk away and do not get sucked in.
Keep preparing for plan B as you're being the beautiful wife he knows.
I worry your WH will need to hit bottom before he gets it if he ever does.
You need to protect you and your kids. He will try and keep you in his drama until you're in Plan B.
He has a long list of requirements if he wants to save this M.
How you doing on your plan B preparation?
You did just fine and his response is typical--he blamed you for all that is happening while taking no personal responsibility.
I'd get a list together of what requirements he must meet for you to stay married to him. Present that to him, telling him "I'm done with the games, this is what it will take for me to stay married to you" and, essentially, give him an ultimatum.
Don't let up on the reins, you've taken charge of this and he'll likely start getting pretty pushy once he realizes that he cannot just mow you over again.
Somewhere here there's a list of conditions that others have used that may get you started thinking. I'll see if I can dig it up.
At some point, you're going to need a poly to make sure you have all the truth that YOU need. I don't know if now would be a good time to bring it up, but if he insists he has done nothing wrong still, maybe you can float that idea to him.
A polygraph is a good idea. He's full of it and they both know it. I'd hit him with both barrels now, telling him what he must to do avoid being divorced. Enough of the games, it ends here and now. He's either in, today, right now, this second, or he's out, but that you're flat-out DONE with all of this sh*t.
I'd still plan for Plan B, though.
jIl, are you in plan b w/him out of the house? Do you have an IM? You shouldn't engage w/him at all, because all you're going to get is lies. Do you have a list of conditions? If he doesn't approach w/a plan for marital recovery, disengage.
Am so glad to hear about the law clinic! That's your to-do thing today!
At some point, you're going to need a poly to make sure you have all the truth that YOU need.
Honestly, I'm not sure how much truth I need. Or that I can handle. If he would just come clean about the things he already knows that I know, at least that would be something. I have a hard time even imagining the full scope of much worse this may be when I get lied to about everything, large and small alike.
I'm definitely going to have to think about this, but no point in worrying about it until he's shows he'll follow through on some of the other conditions. Without them, there is no marriage and no reason to hurt myself further even if he were agree to the test.
I worry your WH will need to hit bottom before he gets it if he ever does.
I worry about this as well. I don't really see him making real changes otherwise. I just don't know what would push him to bottom. Exposure changed his tune, but only time will tell if he does anything other than just act nicely towards me.
How you doing on your plan B preparation?
I'm really only in the beginning stages. Basically, I've accepted I have to prepare for it and do it. I've set a date of May 6th to implement it, to give myself an end date to this madness. Making the actual plan is something I'm going to work on this week. I decided to do it, but got distracted by planning the exposure, so I haven't actually done any of the work yet.
He's trying to gaslight you and make you think you're crazy.
Just finished reading the link and my mind is blown. That is exactly what I've been dealing with for years. In the beginning, he would eventually give up and I would get at least some truth and remorse. Now it's full blown, you are crazy, this never happened, taking it to his grave type of stuff.
Is there any way to make it stop? Just keep saying that I know the truth until he admits it?
I thought the lies came from a place of fear, but that's just so methodical and evil.
I'd get a list together of what requirements he must meet for you to stay married to him. Present that to him, telling him "I'm done with the games, this is what it will take for me to stay married to you" and, essentially, give him an ultimatum.
Ah, the ultimatum. That should go over well. In the past, anything that even seems vaguely ultimatum like has been met with "I don't do ultimatums. If you give me an ultimatum, I'm only going to pick the thing you don't want." As if he would have given me what I wanted if it weren't a this or that scenario.
I mentioned some of the more pressing things when he was here and seemed willing to listen. Obviously, he didn't agree to anything. I'll work on a more exact list tonight.
He's either in, today, right now, this second, or he's out, but that you're flat-out DONE with all of this sh*t.
I'd still plan for Plan B, though.
So I need to get him to tell me once and for all if it's recovery or divorce, today? Wouldn't I need to go immediately to Plan B if he didn't chose recovery? How else would I back up the threat of being completely done if I didn't go dark immediately when he chose the wrong answer? On the complete opposite note, what if he did actually pick recovery? Would I have to let him move back in right now without having shown me changes? I don't want to allow him to return until I've seen a difference in his actions and not just more lies and promises about the future.
No you Plan A like rockstar(about 3 weeks) as you prepare for Plan B. Then you shut the door to drama.
You need a good IM. He's already out of the house so you need to get into Plan B sooner than later.
When's your apt for the law place Brits_Brat told you about? This should be a priority.
jIl, are you in plan b w/him out of the house? Do you have an IM? You shouldn't engage w/him at all, because all you're going to get is lies. Do you have a list of conditions? If he doesn't approach w/a plan for marital recovery, disengage.
I'm in Plan A, with him out of the house. I haven't prepared Plan B yet and don't have an IM in place.
I'm going to work on my conditions now, so he'll stop floundering around trying to meet my ENs (it's really hilarious the way he's skipping from one to another trying to find which will give him traction when you know what you're looking at) and focus on actually dealing the issue on hand, his infidelity. He's attempted admiration, affection, SF, DS, and conversation all since the letter got back to him. If only he could ever hit on Honesty, since it's my #2 and the only one relevant at this time.
As soon as he gets this list, it's going to be all about the list, or disengage. Change or nothing. Lies are just not going to cut it anymore.
If he does come around and start talking with you "honestly," remind him that you need a poly to move forward with recovery.
It took me more than a month to get my WW to agree to the poly (she still hasn't taken it.) The whole time she was giving me trickle-truth and gaslighting me. Expect him to say stuff like, "I have told you everything! I've poured out my heart and soul and you still think there is more. When is it ever going to be enough?"
After I gave her the poly ultimatum, turns out she hadn't told me everything. In fact, she had told me very little. I almost caved in the face of her consistent denials, constant tears, and general gaslighting. Don't do that. Be strong. Get the poly. Demand it.
He's trying to gaslight you and make you think you're crazy.
Just finished reading the link and my mind is blown. That is exactly what I've been dealing with for years. In the beginning, he would eventually give up and I would get at least some truth and remorse. Now it's full blown, you are crazy, this never happened, taking it to his grave type of stuff.
Is there any way to make it stop? Just keep saying that I know the truth until he admits it?
I thought the lies came from a place of fear, but that's just so methodical and evil.
Yes, the gas lighting, blameshifting is all very common, very methodical, and evil. I feel at times there is an adultry demon that takes posession of their body. Very scary fighting the demon, get plan A done and go into plan b quickly...it is very exhausting fighting the adultery demon.
He's either in, today, right now, this second, or he's out, but that you're flat-out DONE with all of this sh*t.
I'd still plan for Plan B, though.
So I need to get him to tell me once and for all if it's recovery or divorce, today? Wouldn't I need to go immediately to Plan B if he didn't chose recovery? How else would I back up the threat of being completely done if I didn't go dark immediately when he chose the wrong answer?
Well, the result of such a statement probably doesn't matter because you will each retreat to your own homes when he stammers and hems and haws on a response, but I'd have no qualms about telling him that his continued adultery will result in you leaving him.
Telling a wayward that you will not put up with their adultery is hardly a love buster. Where's that carrot/stick thread that Pep posts...
Here it is.
Pep's Carrot and Stick of Plan A Also the bar for your requirements should be set high for your WH.
Hi jen - sorry you have to be here. You are getting some great advice from the others here. Absolutely your first responsibility has to be to the health and wellbeing of yourself and your other children. You have to be protected from him and his irresponsibility and cruelty, and if that means he has to leave, then he leaves. If he won't protect you and the kids, that leaves you.
Yes, he is gaslighting you. Glad you refuse to fall for it. I am concerned about his very nasty bullying and threatening of both you and his own parents. Frankly, he is behaving like an addict, and his wild number of affair partners and very cruel behaviour in protecting his drug (women) makes him sound an awful lot like a sex addict.
Again: Protect yourself and your children. He is not going to do that unless and until he hits bottom - which may never happen - and in the meantime, you can only expect more cruelty and selfishness and bullying and threats from him. You will almost certainly need Plan B to keep you and your children safe from him.
So I need to get him to tell me once and for all if it's recovery or divorce, today? Wouldn't I need to go immediately to Plan B if he didn't chose recovery? How else would I back up the threat of being completely done if I didn't go dark immediately when he chose the wrong answer?
No not really because its not a threat designed to harm him. You are just stating your own healthy boundaries that you won't put up with bad treatment. You don't have to punish him with a swift disappearance.
On the contrary, you need time to prepare a proper Plan B. A bad one with holes in is worse than none at all.
Please keep in mind that this is not about tricking him making him or forcing his hand.
Unless he ENTHUSIASTICALLY is jumping through hoops to do everything you require, he's not repentant. You don't need to storm out and make him sorry.
A swift disappearance will not make him repentant. The 'stick' of Plan A merely needs you to state calmly that you will need your conditions met. Say 'this is what it will take to keep me in the marriage' if you get a negative answer say 'I have your answer then' and just carry on being reasonable and looking good until you can go into your plan B.
Check out my sig to prepare.
You need a good IM. He's already out of the house so you need to get into Plan B sooner than later.
When's your apt for the law place Brits_Brat told you about? This should be a priority.
I haven't been able to come up with an IM yet. I considered my longtime friend, but after speaking with her today and the borderline tongue lashing I got for waiting one more second before filing for divorce made me realize that she would never be able to stay personally not involved. I continue to think on it.
Call the legal clinic will be the very first thing I do tomorrow.
Be strong. Get the poly. Demand it.
I don't even know exactly why the thought of a poly scares me so much. I'd take one, no problem, but I have nothing to hide.
I think I've gotten used to enabling false recovery by allowing pretty words to distort the truth and the idea of a poly, knowing it could reveal ugly truths that I have never even considered before unnerves me.
Totally my weird issue, but I see what you're saying. If we ever even get to the stage where recovery was seemingly in the future, I would have to do it. There really is no other way to be certain this wouldn't be another false recovery with out it.
Just rereading my own response here makes me see how completely my head has been messed with through the years. This should be a no-brainer, not something I have to convince myself to ask for.
Also the bar for your requirements should be set high for your WH.
I'm working on this right now. I've taken the example list, removed the ones that don't seem to apply to us and replaced most with something more on target for my situation.
I look at it and it just seems so easy. I feel like I'm forgetting something because all of the items so far are easy to do, and I (at least in my mind) can't see how any would be a big sacrifice.
I'm not sure if my standards aren't high enough, or if I'm just looking at the list like someone who has nothing to hide.
Jennifer,
You can make the poly one of your requirements IF he decides to do what it takes and shows repentance. I would stay focused on preparing for Plan B.
Frankly, he is behaving like an addict, and his wild number of affair partners and very cruel behaviour in protecting his drug (women) makes him sound an awful lot like a sex addict.
Years ago, in a fight about something - a woman, porn, no idea, something sexual is all I remember - he claimed to be a sex addict. Went as far as to call SAA and get info, meeting times, etc. Whether he ever planned on going is questionable, but a few men there started calling, trying to persuade him to come in for his first meeting.
At that point, he recanted, claiming he thought he only had impulse control issues. I'm sure he found this term on the internet. Either way, he used it as an excuse not to go to SAA meetings.
Once or twice in the last few years, I've broached the subject of sexual addiction and he flat out denies having ever admitted it was a possibility. Whether he was lying and saw that I wasn't going to allow a self-diagnosis of SA as an excuse and expected him to get treatment, or he wasn't ready to give it up yet is anyone's guess, but the result is the same.
i would be wary of allowing him to label his behaviour with an excuse, just like "mid life crisis." it will let him off the hook for his own decisions. i am very glad to hear you wouldn't have a bar of it!
For my Plan B, it seems I only really need to find an IM, and write the PBL and addendum. He's already out of the house and gave back the keys. Plus, also helpful, he never had a key to the deadbolt, which I now have a key to and use religiously.
"Addict" is not an excuse and in no way excuses his behaviour. It is an explanation that will allow you to understand what you are dealing with and therefore arm yourself better.
If you don't know how to deal with an addict, but that's what he is, he will keep you dancing in circles forever or until you have a nervous breakdown - whichever comes first. You cannot reason with an addict and you will just lose your mind if you try.
The Harleys will tell you that MB techniques do not work on any sort of genuine addict. A *short* Plan A followed by an airtight Plan B is the only thing that will protect you from their destruction, and the only thing that *might* reach them - but again, Plan B is primarily to protect you and your children from the cruelty of a cheating spouse, especially if they're also an addict of any kind.
i would be wary of allowing him to label his behaviour with an excuse, just like "mid life crisis." it will let him off the hook for his own decisions. i am very glad to hear you wouldn't have a bar of it!
That was never going to be an issue. I had an uncle, only about 12 years older than me. He was an alcoholic until it killed him at 40. I saw what his wife and young daughter went through, just as I saw him use it as an excuse to keep drinking, then eventually just hide his drinking and pretend to be all about AA.
My opinion was and remains to be - okay, so your an addict. That's a disease, but not an excuse for behavior. What are you going to do to get better? As far as I'm concerned, a declaration of addiction only means you have more to prove and more people to hold you accountable. It also means you have access to even more people that are in the position to help you.
I think he hoped I would take it as an acceptable excuse and leave him alone. He wasn't around with my uncle, when I watched other family members either accept unacceptable behavior because he was an addict and "couldn't help himself" or use him as a measuring stick against which to feel better about their own drinking. When I expected him to immediately get to a meeting and work hard on recovery, addiction didn't seem like the easy out he thought it would.
For my Plan B, it seems I only really need to find an IM, and write the PBL and addendum. He's already out of the house and gave back the keys. Plus, also helpful, he never had a key to the deadbolt, which I now have a key to and use religiously.
Here's some help for your PB letter.
Plan B letter samples How to Plan B properly Parallel Parenting in Plan B
i would be wary of allowing him to label his behaviour with an excuse, just like "mid life crisis." it will let him off the hook for his own decisions. i am very glad to hear you wouldn't have a bar of it!
That was never going to be an issue. I had an uncle, only about 12 years older than me. He was an alcoholic until it killed him at 40. I saw what his wife and young daughter went through, just as I saw him use it as an excuse to keep drinking, then eventually just hide his drinking and pretend to be all about AA.
My opinion was and remains to be - okay, so your an addict. That's a disease, but not an excuse for behavior. What are you going to do to get better? As far as I'm concerned, a declaration of addiction only means you have more to prove and more people to hold you accountable. It also means you have access to even more people that are in the position to help you.
I think he hoped I would take it as an acceptable excuse and leave him alone. He wasn't around with my uncle, when I watched other family members either accept unacceptable behavior because he was an addict and "couldn't help himself" or use him as a measuring stick against which to feel better about their own drinking. When I expected him to immediately get to a meeting and work hard on recovery, addiction didn't seem like the easy out he thought it would.
Perfect! You got it. You're going to get through this just fine.
How did yesterday evening go?
How did yesterday evening go?
Not great, but could have been worse. I got about halfway done with my PBL. It's a lot harder to write that I thought it would be.
My WH's claim that would we would continue the conversation while he was at work wasn't true. I got a bunch of texts of an pretty much sexual nature. When I replied that I love our sex life, but would like to make fixing out marriage a priority, I was told that 8 hours previous I had told him I was filing for divorce.
I said that in our previous conversation that I wanted to make my marriage work, but wouldn't allow the situation to continue as it is, and stated what I needed to move past the idea of divorce.
I then said that I am working on saving or marriage and when he was committed to doing the same to let me know.
I was then accused of locking him out of his online banking. And invading his stuff.
I said that I wasn't discussing this. I've made myself clear. I love him, but I will not listen to blame or excuses.
I got an apology, but only because he considered that perhaps he locked himself out. Not ever realizing that my problem is he still thinks he deserves privacy.
He stopped by today to "see the kids." Mostly, he just brought me coffee and spent the time here wanting to hug and touch and act as though everything was fine between us. I allowed it because it seemed like what I was supposed to do - to show him that we are capable of being happy together. But then he left for work and I fear he believes that I'm accepting things as is.
I'm not sure how to keep telling him I need change. That I won't go back to the way things were. After reading other threads I know that we've gone through FR so many times before. He starts acting like the person I married and I stay because I think it's better, but without the EPs it always plays out the same.
I realize I've tried to use a lot of MB techniques in the past without knowing about the program. I've always stated certain EPs for recovery and always accepted his excuses instead of demanding change. It really isn't any wonder why he thinks he can do as he always does and get to keep his family. Just have to stay strong, keep working on Plan B and not just keep accept the little he's willing to give as good enough.
He is onto the next tactic, the sex card.....trying to get you to drop things and cave....dont fall for it either...
He is onto the next tactic, the sex card.....trying to get you to drop things and cave....dont fall for it either...
You're right. He does expect me to just forget about everything and live the way he wants.
I was just told hat he's not the one who keeps "bringing [censored] up" and that "when I stop going through his stuff and stop demanding he take me everywhere he goes, then maybe he would make some of the changes I've asked for"
Just how dense is he? Does he not realize that all he just said to me was "I need you to forget about what I've done" and "I can't pretend to be faithful if you continue to prove I'm cheating and severely limit my time to cheat"?
So I've just said that the changes are something he should want to do to make me feel safe with him. But, I have his answer.
If he wants this other life so much, why doesn't he just leave me alone? I don't get it. I've exposed him completely. I'm making it harder to live this other life. It's got to be aggravating and he has to know I'm not going to stop until he does the right thing or leaves me alone.
Thing is, he isnt dense.....these tactics have worked before on you right? You are seeing these tactics for what they are, blameshifting, intimidation, and control....all designed to get you to back down and return to the status.quo so he can continue his IB and cake eating.......dont fall for it......
Jennifer, you've been impressing me, girl!
If you're struggling to get a RL intermediary, I'd be happy to be your email-only intermediary.
I had the same problem finding someone neutral and I got an amazing MBer to offer and she's done a great job for me.
Folks on here who have an email IM still need a drop off point for the kids (like grandparents), as you wouldn't be able to see him. But it works pretty well.
Let the mods know if you want to exchange email addresses.
Jennifer, you've been impressing me, girl!
If you're struggling to get a RL intermediary, I'd be happy to be your email-only intermediary.
I had the same problem finding someone neutral and I got an amazing MBer to offer and she's done a great job for me.
Folks on here who have an email IM still need a drop off point for the kids (like grandparents), as you wouldn't be able to see him. But it works pretty well.
Let the mods know if you want to exchange email addresses.
Thank you so much. I will most likely take you up on that. Especially since being a completely nuetral 3rd party familiar with Plan B and IM, I wouldn't have to worry about the IM caving and telling either of us anything extra thinking they were "helping."
May be a dumb question, but how does one contact the mods?
The legal clinics are all in really bad areas I wouldn't feel comfortable walking around alone in, especially pregnant.
But instead of using that as an excuse, as tempting as it was, I have filled out the web intake form for Legal Services New Jersey, who will connect me with a law firm that will help me on a pro bono or low-income basis. I should be hearing from them within 2 business days.
I'll be honest, I didn't want to go this route. Filing for divorce makes it seem so hopeless. But, I've known it was pretty hopeless for years now.
It's been 7 weeks today since I kicked him out. He's still won't admit to any wrong doing. He's still making excuses and won't do a single thing to warrant his returning home. I got on the scale today. I'll be 19 weeks pregnant come Sunday and I've haven't gained any weight. In fact, I've lost over 10 pounds. This just has to stop.
May be a dumb question, but how does one contact the mods?
Click notify on the buttons at the bottom of each post
I wouldn't have to worry about the IM caving and telling either of us anything extra thinking they were "helping."
Noooooo! I think I can promise you that. I really LOVE my dark plan. I dont know what he's up to and your brain cant pivot around an unknown quantity forever. It just makes you move on. Brilliant.
I'll be honest, I didn't want to go this route. Filing for divorce makes it seem so hopeless. But, I've known it was pretty hopeless for years now.
Well, you're a buyer. Buyers get pretty po'd when they cant fix their house, as is their nature.
And you arent really getting a divorce. Youre doing the paperwork necessary for protection. YOu didnt ask your husband for a divorce and you didnt end the marriage. HE did.
You say 'hopeless'. Hmmmm.
I'm pretty scathing when BSs come on here with Plan Hope, as opposed to Plan Action which would make you think I was anti-hope. I'm not. And I wouldnt describe your situation as hopeless, exactly. You've got some grieving and some thinking to do, sure. But you will reach a point where you will see the day you insisted on getting your due and looking after those babies as the best, most POSITVE and hopeful thing you ever did.
Before, when his behaviour was allowed to run you down unchecked, it was hopeless. Now there are all sorts of possibilities. All sorts. It's like Princess Meggy's signature: With a plan, there is hope.
It looks like you've gotten excellent advice so far. Keep up with the Plan A as best as you can until you can get your ducks in a row.
I think you're doing pretty well with taking control of this mess. Did you hear from any other people that you exposed to?
Did you hear from any other people that you exposed to?
I heard from 2, the last 2 I added to the list basically because they've know us both since before we were married and figured it couldn't hurt even though we hadn't ever been extremely close and hadn't been in much contact lately.
One told me that she was sure he loved me, but didn't know if he could ever change his cheating ways. That I had to be what was best for me, whatever that may be.
The other said she'd been in the same situation last year, but it was drugs instead of cheating. She divorced him, but only after she did everything else she could think of. That she too exposed it, as hiding it only made it easier for him. She said she was much happier now, after the divorce, but it's something you can only do when you're ready to and no one can tell you when that will be. Of course, her ex kidnapped her kid and it took weeks for the cops to get him back like 2 months ago, so I can't even imagine how bad it was in the marriage.
I'm disappointed not to have heard from some of the others. Certain members of his family and one friend that I believed to be a very close friend to both of us. I can only hope they are at least saying something to him.
His brother sent him the whole letter. That just pisses me off, honestly. Now he's fully prepared with lies to cover the exact things I said. Plus he knows exactly how much I know about each of the affairs, so no confessing to anything I don't already know - if he were ever to admit anything anyway. I got a full blown denial of sex with anyone other than me, since his relationship prior to meeting me, just today. Because women often confess to having sex with married men to their wives because they have absolutely nothing else to do with their days.
Glad you got some support back from exposure. I got a couple of trolls, but on the main a lot of good replies. I was so grateful for that support. It really does help. The second lady who came back to you sounds amazingly wise! Though she paid dearly for the wisdom, by the sounds.
Are people going to rag on him for being such a child? Thats what you're after really. Ask whoever you can think of to do this.
His brother sent him the whole letter. That just pisses me off, honestly. Now he's fully prepared with lies to cover the exact things I said. Plus he knows exactly how much I know about each of the affairs, so no confessing to anything I don't already know.
I really wouldnt worry about that. You'd require a poly anyway and you would know the difference between full truth and not.
Its prob shook him up quite a lot to see how much you know. Plus who's to say, someone who was capable of finding out that much doesnt know more? A suggestion that you do and a raised eyebrow would probably scramble his brains (you do know his assured act IS just an act, dont you?)
He is unlikely to crack in Plan A anyway. He's too far along in the hardening process. Plan B is needed more often than not, anyway. Just do the best Plan A you can for you.
Even the most level headed person in the world has too much time to think in Plan B. You will at some point convince yourself that your Plan A wasnt good enough. That you didnt meet a certain need in the marriage etc. If you give Plan A a good go, you'll know you did great and expressed a willingness to meet all needs in future. Then its all on him.
But Plan A needn't be lengthy. Im worried about you, what with your weight loss and pregnancy. Plan B preps should be your first priority. Those kids need you.
Good job Jennifer for working on your Plan B preperations and it seems like you may have an IM.
When do you see your doc again? The weight loss concerns me. Can you see them next week?
When do you see your doc again? The weight loss concerns me. Can you see them next week?
I was already scheduled to see them next Thursday. I will be asking to go on anti-depressants, which shouldn't be an issue since she already offered them to me at my first appointment. I declined since I've managed to be off the meds and well since 2005, even though the previous infidelities. But I can see that I am not going to manage without them this time.
I had an appointment with my specialist last week, who did my ultrasound. He said she looks good and I'll see him again in 3 weeks for another ultrasound. I'm closely monitored during pregnancy due to previous losses and other complications in pregnancies with my living children, so at least I know I'm getting the best care possible.
WH just hit me up for money. I told him to use the money he's planning on using for the fight he's going to tomorrow. I got yelled at, lied to, and then threatened that he wouldn't give me any more money in the future. I calmly pointed out the lies. More lies and was told to stop going through his stuff.
I replied that I will no longer enable his lifestyle. That his choices hurt me, so I will not fund them. And if he choose to take out his anger by taking money away from the kids, I cannot stop him.
"You're not going to stop going through my stuff?"
"Enable my lifesyle? What lifestyle?"
"See there's no talking to you, your mind is already made up."
"Don't ask me for another dime. You will not get it."
And then an immediate apology for the last statement, that I know if I need money, it's mine. Guess he thought that one was too far.
I just firmly stated "I've given you every chance to fix this marriage and will continue to do so. I will not help do anything that goes against that."
After that, he had to go. But could then text me to please get some rest. To eat something. To discuss baby names. To tell me someone I exposed to called him. I have not replied.
This ask for something, attempt to engage me in a fight, fail, then attempt to change the subject like the previous conversation never happened is getting exhausting.
Its his tactic. Keep you jumping around, exhaust you. Its good Art of War.
Read the link in my sig if you want tips. you're doing very well tho.
Please keep us updated on your doctor apt.
That's why you need Plan B. So you don't hear his drama and abuse.
I haven't heard from WH since I stood my ground yesterday afternoon. It would be a good thing too, if I hadn't spent the last 18 hours thinking that I'd hear from him any minute now.
I've had a lot of time to think. I cried, a decent amount, because I think I've just about given up on him. I read somewhere years ago that you eventually get to the point in a breakup where you stop remembering the good things that made you want to stay and the much larger percentage of bad things that made you know you had to leave become clearer.
Everything I've told you guys, everything I put in the exposure letter should have been enough to know that change isn't likely in his case and most likely couldn't even be trusted even if he did a complete 180.
Yet, I still tried. I sat here last night, trying to think of kind words and memories to put in my Plan B letter, and I ended up remembering even more betrayal that I had mentally blocked.
The fights over not just porn, but the types of porn he pays to watch daily
The dating sites that have popped up since even before we were married.
Contact with women back when MySpace was big even before we were married.
Answering craigslist ads that included prostitutes that he may have visited.
A woman who called me Halloween 2010 when she found out he was married, to tell me they were having sex.
Lying about where he was and suspect text messages only 2 months after we were married.
The EA, that was probably a PA, throughout the entire pregnancy with my now 4 year old.
Leaving me to go to a nightclub with friends all night while I was miscarrying for the 3rd time because "It's not like I hadn't been through this before and he couldn't do anything for me anyway."
All the times I found a babysitter after he had already gone out, only to meet up with him and find that he's not where he claimed he was going to be.
At this point, I know there is even more that I'm not remembering clear enough to form into words.
The scraps of love and affection, the month or 2 at a time where I had the husband I thought I was marrying, has kept me in a marriage that was never what I thought it was supposed to be.
I feel like such an idiot to have spent time and energy trying to save a marriage that never really existed.
Hey, look - a text message just saying "I miss u." And for the first time ever, I feel absolutely no hope. I'm nothing to him. The same as the hundreds of women he's attempted to use and throw away in the 8 years I've known him. The same as every girlfriend he had before me. I'm not special. And I never was.
I think it's time to be done with it and just go for Plan D.
I think it's time to be done with it and just go for Plan D.
Sounds like you are definitely ready for Plan B. Hold off on plan D while you can. About a week ago I was so ready to just get it over with, but the vets convinced me to hold off. It was good advice for me, and I believe it is good advice for you.
You definitely need Plan B though. You need to worry about you, and not this clown.
Go to Plan B so that you'll escape the drama.
Divorces take months to conclude, so you can use that time to just be away from all of it.
You're going through the normal anger stage.
This is why you need to get into Plan B sooner than later. I worry so much for your health, especially with being pregnant and your history of miscarriages.
He's already out of the house can you get your IM so you can take care of you and out of his craziness?
How's your hunt for an IM?
On your Plan B letter you have the examples I posted to you, correct?
Jil, what you're feeling is normal: loss and grief. You really do need ro get into plan b asap so you are protected from his hurtful behaviour and your lb doesn't flat line. It is my understanding that once you get some space, the good things will regain a foothold should he come right and you want to recover the m. Getting your ducks in a row is a priority, but your health and children come first due to your serious health issues.
I thought someone here was going to be your im?
Jennifer, Plan D if you like but you can also Plan B at the same time. I feel it is so important for your health and your baby to remove yourself from harm. Please take good care of yourself and protect yourself from this toxic behaviour.
I think it's time to be done with it and just go for Plan D.
Jil, my heart truly breaks for you. No one here will blame you for heading for Plan D.
As Indie mentioned, you can Plan B whilst heading for Plan D. This is actually recommended by Dr H, as it lessens the pain of divorce if that is what eventuates.
Also, Plan B removes YOU from the drama, so you can gain clarity and perspective. It has allowed me to re-learn how to make decisions in my best interests without having to consider a H. This means that should my WH ever be ready for marital recovery, I will have a bar raised high on what I want from a husband, and will NOT accept crumbs that can lead to FR.
Get your Plan B ducks in a row as quickly as you can.
Thank you all for the continued support.
My Plan B is stalled. I just can't find the words for the PBL.
I've definitely got anger. But it's also a severe disillusionment. The man I thought I married never existed. Our entire relationship was based on one lie after another. I find it really hard to write this letter knowing that the good memories that I have are based on lies too.
I probably shouldn't have replied to the I miss u text with "Please don't text message me again. Words are no longer enough." - Not exactly Plan A, but at least no more texts.
Thank you all for the continued support.
My Plan B is stalled. I just can't find the words for the PBL.
I've definitely got anger. But it's also a severe disillusionment. The man I thought I married never existed. Our entire relationship was based on one lie after another. I find it really hard to write this letter knowing that the good memories that I have are based on lies too.
Have you looked at these?
Plan B letter samples Post your sample and we'll help.
About the anger, we all go through it and I know you will get through it.
Come on here and vent as much as you want.
How's your support system IRL?
I probably shouldn't have replied to the I miss u text with "Please don't text message me again. Words are no longer enough." - Not exactly Plan A, but at least no more texts.
Try to do the best Plan A possible until you go plan dark.
Remember you want him to have great thoughts about you before you shut that door. Except your husband is Mr. Gaslighter so you need to be Plan B very soon.
Next time you can simply say I miss you too. We do know you miss the good that was him at one time or you would've never married him. Right?
If you can't think of anything nice to say then don't say anything at all
Thank you all for the continued support.
My Plan B is stalled. I just can't find the words for the PBL.
I've definitely got anger. But it's also a severe disillusionment. The man I thought I married never existed. Our entire relationship was based on one lie after another. I find it really hard to write this letter knowing that the good memories that I have are based on lies too.
I probably shouldn't have replied to the I miss u text with "Please don't text message me again. Words are no longer enough." - Not exactly Plan A, but at least no more texts.
Jil, let us help you with that letter so you can get into Plan B sooner.
Base it on the link brainhurts provided. Personalise it. This is you going out with a bang, the last memory WH is going to have unless he meets your requirements. Regardless of what you want right here and now, feelings change. So keep your options open for yourself by giving him the best damn memory you can.
WH will likely keep this letter. He will likely re-read. It is what waywards do. Have your words remind him what he is missing, the love he is turning his back on by continuing to be wayward.
Post your draft PBL, the vets will help.
Thank you all for the continued support.
My Plan B is stalled. I just can't find the words for the PBL.
I've definitely got anger. But it's also a severe disillusionment. .
The letter writing is problematic. It was for me, at least. Because you dont feel the words Dr H recommends you to say. You dont feel loving. However you wouldnt feel angry if you dint have a lovebank, so just accept that as fact, even if you dont feel like it.
Nevertheless, say them. Go into Plan B KNOWING you did EVERYTHING you could. Your emotions do not write the letter. Your plans do. Your emotions dont get a say. Your logic is in control.
As Caracal has said, write your letter, and post it here for tips. Keep it as close to the one Dr H recommends.
Remember, you are going to war. That involves setting bait for the enemy. In the form of ENs.
Jennifer, I felt exactly as you do now before I began Plan B.
These are words from my own thread:
Beginning to feel wary about the plan b letter. It makes sense to do it, trying it takes away any 'what ifs' for me. But it will hurt. Could do with a few insights from vets: -
I am putting my heart on the line by doing plan b letter, can anyone tell me how soon after the letter they started to feel
It was a positive experience.
The next day, I liked the Plan B idea again, but then the next....
Plan B, while still do-able strength-wise, isnt appealing today. Perhaps because I'm having an emotional day, perhaps because I have run clean out of reasons to care at all about what he does..
But eventually, the vets talked sense into me and....
Leaving the Plan B letter felt good. I put his St Christopher medallion in with it, he hasnt worn it for ages. His grandmother gave it to him and he always used to give it to me to wear when I had an exam.
What I realised today is that I am very much still in love with him. Guess it's stupid to expect that to just vanish overnight.
This was last year and I have never regretted doing it. Never. He put me through a terrible time betraying me, gaslighting me and then abandoning me.
In response I remained calm, loving, I gave him options, but I made it clear I would tolerate no more evil.
I will always be so, so proud of my reaction. So pitying of his decision to let someone as wonderful as me, with that wonderful reaction, drop gracefully out of his life. I am so grateful I was saved from his see-saw of hostility, manipulation and then begging me to come back once he got bored. I didnt know that's what I would be exposed to, yet I have since seen how all Waywards who are not Plan B'd do this.
I would recommend Plan B. That's all I am saying.
Thanks again all. I really couldn't have gotten this far without you.
I will finish my PBL tonight. Even if I really don't want to. It makes sense. It is my next step. This is war and I need to stop being led by emotions because they haven't gotten me very far in the past.
I need to just silence my Taker for a while. All it wants to do is yell and scream and point out that he's a selfish jerk who couldn't keep his junk in his pants because his wife took some of the attention off him to raise the children he claims to love but never bothered to raise himself. Poor him.
While a letter like that may make me feel good short term, it's not going to get through to him and is only going to further his belief that he's doing the right thing to ensure his future happiness. That doesn't help me at all. Even if I don't ever take him back, I want him to wallow in regret. A good PBL makes that more likely. I know that. I just need to keep knowing that.
However you wouldnt feel angry if you dint have a lovebank, so just accept that as fact, even if you dont feel like it.
Need to keep remembering this too. Wanting to be indifferent doesn't make it so. The anger and tears are a sign I still care even if I don't always feel great admitting it.
I'll get my PBL posted tonight or tomorrow the latest. No more stalling.
Jen you're doing great! I can't wait to see Plan B pay off for you.
You're doing fantastic Jennifer.
Keep going. That's one of the best things about MB is it is a plan and keeps you going in the direction to help you.
We know how tough it is to keep the emotions down and then on top of it your pregnant.
Remember the
Three States of Mind in Marriage Because your lovebank still had a positive balance and that is why you're in the conflict state, which is very normal. When you get to the state of withdrawl it will be "some what" easier to move into a dark Plan B. Withdrawl is the next state.
I found a good radio clip that might help you as you're preparing for Plan B.
It's about secrecy and when it's a good idea for a spouse to go into Plan B and how you need to "preserve" the feeling of love for your spouse. It's 5 minute into the segment.
Radio Segment of when it may be a good time to go jnto Plan B at the 5 min mark
Here's my very rough PBL. It's mostly cut and pasted from the links provided, with a few personal changes. It's really jumbled, but I didn't wan to heavily edit it without first hearing what you guys think should be cut, added or expanded upon.
Dear WH,
I know that you will always reside in my heart since I do have a great love for you after all we've gone through.
I would like to acknowledge and apologize for my part in the demise of our marriage. I did not understand what it took to have a successful and fulfilling relationship. I didn�t give you the time, attention and respect you deserved. I'm sure this helped create a void in our marriage that allowed your involvement with other women to continue.
I am willing to avoid the mistakes I've made in the past and create a new life for both of us that will meet your needs. I can ensure that I will make you a priority in my life, show my appreciation more and take the time to enjoy the spontaneity you bring to my life. I too had a responsibility to meet your most important needs; and by lacking the right judgment, I did little to aid efforts in building and growing our love for each other. I lost sight of the importance of your needs. Now I know I am more than able to not just meet those needs, but to be lovingly enthusiastic in the doing.
In the past I endured the hurt and pain, I now see that it is soon to drain my love for you. Until you can truthfully and honestly return home and work with me on rebuilding our marriage, I will avoid seeing you or talking to you.
I do not wish for your bond with the children to suffer any further and I will be as flexible as possible with visitation of the children, but I must ask that you not have contact with me during pick up and drop off times. XXXX has agreed to help make arrangements for you to visit the children whenever you would like.
If you want to communicate about the children or any other matter, it will have to be through XXXX. Money for the kids� school can be mailed or dropped off with the children.
I ask you to respect my decision to separate from you this way. I hope that you understand that I am not doing this to hurt you or punish you but to protect my feelings for you. You must know about the suffering I have endured because of your other relationships, and I simply cannot be with you any longer, knowing that you remain in contact with them.
I still love you but I cannot see you under these conditions.
I want to be with the man who held my hand both when learning we had lost babies and when seeing the ones we have come into this world. I want to be the wife who couldn�t help but try to drag you away from your friend because I desperately needed to be alone with you for a short while. I want us both to be the people who wore their wedding rings, in spite of never wearing jewelry, because we were proud to call each other husband and wife. I want us to feel safe being our absolute best with each other, while knowing the other will be there in times of the absolute worst.
As soon as you are willing to permanently give up those relationships and are willing to follow the measures that I suggested to ensure an absolute end to all the outside relationships, I am willing to do whatever it takes to start a full recovery of our marriage.
I want you to know that no matter how bad the past was, no matter how ugly, we can get past it. I want us to be able to rebuild our marriage someday. I want us to be able to meet each other's emotional needs and to avoid doing anything to hurt each other.
We need to build a new lifestyle in which everything we do makes us both happy. Then there will never again be a reason for us to separate. I want to be your best friend, someone who is always there for you when you need me. And I want you as my best friend.
I want to grow old with you. I loved you more than life itself while we were together, and I continue to do so as I write this. When you find yourself ready and willing to truly and fully commit to our family, willing to work on a plan for our recovery, I will be ready and willing to discuss our future.
With all my love,
BS
Jen, you are going to get some edits soon. Don't send this, ok? Hugs to you, and stand by. I will help edit in the morning if need be. Hang on.
Here's my very rough PBL. It's mostly cut and pasted from the links provided, with a few personal changes. It's really jumbled, but I didn't wan to heavily edit it without first hearing what you guys think should be cut, added or expanded upon.
Dear WH,
I know that you will always reside in my heart since I do have a great love for you after all we've gone through. (The first part just seems a bit hopeless like you are bound to end, and Plan B letters should paint a hopeful future) I would like to acknowledge and apologize for my part in the demise of our marriage Again a bit hopeless, stick to the SAA wording I apologise to you for my part in creating an environment that helped make your affairs possible. I did not understand what it took to have a successful and fulfilling relationship. (this is very clever, but I would keep this short I didn’t give you the time, attention and respect you deserved. I'm sure this helped create a void in our marriage that allowed your involvement with other women to continue[color:#000099]waywards have short attention spans![/color]I am willing to avoid the mistakes I've made in the past and create a new life for both of us that will meet your needs. I can ensure that I will make you a priority in my life, show my appreciation more and take the time to enjoy the spontaneity you bring to my life. I too had a responsibility to meet your most important needs; and by lacking the right judgment, I did little to aid efforts in building and growing our love for each other. I lost sight of the importance of your needs. [Now I know I am more than able to not just meet those needs, but to be lovingly enthusiastic in the doing.
In the past I endured the hurt and pain, I now see that it is soon to drain my love for you[/u]. However, until you can truthfully and honestly return home and work with me on rebuilding our marriage, I will avoid seeing you or talking to you.
I do not wish for your bond with the children to suffer any further and I will be as flexible as possible with visitation of the children, but I must ask that you not have contact with me during pick up and drop off times[/u]. Youve already said no contact, and it is not your job to consider his relationship with the children in Plan B, dont offer to be flexible.
(Put this in an addendum XXXX has agreed to help make arrangements for you to visit the children whenever you would like.If you want to communicate about the children or any other matter, it will have to be through XXXX. Money for the kids’ school can be mailed or dropped off with the children.)
I ask you to respect my decision to separate from you this way. I hope that you understand that I am not doing this to hurt you or punish you but to protect my feelings for you. [/u]You must know ]about the suffering I have endured because of your other relationships, and I simply cannot be with you any longer, knowing that you remain in contact with those women.
I still love you but I cannot see you under these conditions.
I want to be with the man who held my hand both when learning we had lost babies and when seeing the ones we have come into this world. I want to be the wife who couldn’t help but try to drag you away from your friend because I desperately needed to be alone with you for a short while].[color:#000099]This is just a bit complex, and it also includes painful memories - keep it simple.[/color] I want us both to be the people who wore their wedding rings, in spite of never wearing jewelry, because we were proud to call each other husband and wife. I want us to feel safe being our absolute best with each other, while knowing the other will be there in times of the absolute worst This would be misunderstood by a wayward.As soon as you are willing to permanently give up those relationships and are willing to follow the measures that I suggested need to ensure an absolute end to all the outside relationships, I am willing to do whatever it takes to start a full recovery of our marriage.
I want you to know that no matter how bad the past was, no matter how ugly, We can get past this. I want us to be able to rebuild our marriage someday. I want us to be able to meet each other's emotional needs and to avoid doing anything to hurt each other.
We need to build a new lifestyle in which everything we do makes us both happy. Then there will never again be a reason for us to separate. I want to be your best friend, someone who is always there for you when you need me. And I want you as my best friend.
I want to grow old with you. I loved you more than life itself [u]while we were together, and I continue to do so as I write this[/u]. When you find yourself ready and willing to truly and fully commit to our family, willing to work on a plan for our recovery, I will be ready and willing to discuss our future.
With all my love,
BS
My take on it...
I'd just nail down the visitation schedule.
Dear WH,
Know that I do have a great love for you after all we've gone through. I would like to acknowledge and apologize for my part in creating an environment that helped make your affairs possible. I did not understand what it took to have a successful and fulfilling relationship.
I am willing to avoid the mistakes I've made in the past and create a new life for both of us that will meet your needs.Now I know I am more than able to not just meet those needs, but to be lovingly enthusiastic in the doing.
However, until you can truthfully and honestly return home and work with me on rebuilding our marriage, I will avoid seeing you or talking to you.
XXXX has agreed to help make arrangements for you to visit the children whenever you would likeon this this and this day from here until here...don't say "whenver you like" because kids need a routine and you don't want him just popping in whenever he sobers up. You MUST define appropriate visiting times for all of your sakes..If you want to communicate about the children or any other matter, it will have to be through XXXX. Money for the kids; school can be mailed or dropped off with the children.
I ask you to respect my decision to separate from you this way. You must know the suffering I have endured because of your other relationships, and I simply cannot be with you any longer, knowing that you remain in contact with those women. I still love you but I cannot see you under these conditions.
We can get past this. I want us to be able to rebuild our marriage someday. I want us to be able to meet each other's emotional needs and to avoid doing anything to hurt each other.
As soon as you are willing to permanently give up those relationships and are willing to follow the measures that I need to ensure an absolute end to all the outside relationships, I am willing to do whatever it takes to start a full recovery of our marriage.
I want to grow old with you. When you find yourself ready and willing to truly and fully commit to our family, willing to work on a plan for our recovery, please let XXXX know and I will be ready and willing to discuss our future.
With all my love,
BS
I agree. giving a wayward flexibility is like tying puppet strings to your shoulders and asking him to yank. He will abuse the privilege.
I would put that stuff in an addendum though so it doesnt colour your 'love letter'
Going to make the changes Indiegirl and Northwood suggest.
How do I explain Indiegirl as my IM?
I haven't heard back from the mods about the email exchange.
What do I put in the addendum?
Need to get this done asap. Plan A has become completely not doable.
He got an apartment in some pedophile projects. A one bedroom. Plans on getting a pull out couch for a 3 and 4 year old to share. Gonna stick the baby somewhere, I guess. It's just unacceptable. I get told that this is what I get for kicking him out. Right.
In my fit of anger, I told him not to come here today. Put the wheels in motion for his getting fired and losing his license. Figured he shouldn't get to leave the marriage with the things I made possible for him to have. Hell, I would have set him on fire if I thought I could survive in prison. Then again, I don't particularly feel like I can survive the rest of today.
Jennifer,
I did exchange email addresses for you two days ago. Did you not get it? Is your address on your MB profile correct?
How do I explain Indiegirl as my IM?
I haven't heard back from the mods about the email exchange.
I sent you an email, Ill get the mods to send you my email too.
As for introducing me, Take out the kids stuff and put it in an addendum (put any financial stuff like pay x bill on x day in the addendum too)
Then add a new paragraph where the kids stuff is taken out. After you've said .... I will not speak with you or talk to you.
Add:
My friend (Indies real name) has agreed to act as an intermediary for any communication you may need to get to me. You may email her at indiesemail.com. I ask you to respect my decision to separate from you in this way.
indiegirl I sent her your address too.
Jennifer, check your profile.
Is your address current?
Or email me so I'm sure you're getting mail.
Ok, I checked my email. Why that wasn't my first move, I'll never know. Common sense seems to be lacking these days.
Indiegirl, I'll send you a reply as soon as I get the kids down for a nap.
I hand write the PBL, correct? I'll get that and the addendums done tonight.
I threw down a hardcore ultimatum, making it very clear that this apartment was the last straw. He claims he's canceling the lease Wednesday, deleting the women/no contact for life and that he will put his full effort into being a husband and father.
I immediately returned to Plan A, with Plan B going into effect Friday (8 weeks since I kicked him out) if I am not shown the canceled lease, women blocked on phone and social media and an attitude showing that me and the kids are the only priority.
I have little hope these things will actually occur, but was surprised he bowed to the ultimatum and will give him the benefit of the doubt for 4 more days. Come Friday, no proof - no contact.
I threw down a hardcore ultimatum, making it very clear that this apartment was the last straw. He claims he's canceling the lease Wednesday, deleting the women/no contact for life and that he will put his full effort into being a husband and father.
Yeah, well, you know how that's liable to work out...
Glad to hear you got the IM email thing worked out
Jennifer,
If your going to give him a chance to prove he will do what you require in order to rebuild your marriage please be crystal clear with him as to what you want.
For example.
Complete transparency, access to his emails, phone and social media (should you agree he can stay on any social media) and he has to account for his whereabouts at all times.
Write NC letters to all the women he is having inappropriate contact with right now.
Give you complete and total handwritten disclosure of his contact with other women since you have been married.
Confess to all friends and family all the cheating he has done ( basically expose his behaviour and seek their support in helping him stay faithful and hold him accountable) the more people watch him the less likely he is to do something.
Agree to embark on MB plan to rebuild your marriage ( although I wouldn't tell him about MB until he has done the other things first).
And add any other specific things you need him to do in order to enable you to want to recover with him.
It has to be make clear so you can measure and see if he is really willing to sort himself out or not so come friday you will be absolutely sure plan B or recovery is right for you.
Set the bar high because you have a serial cheater on your hands and you need to be protected from further harm especially as you are pregnant and should not be going through this stress at this delicate time.
I threw down a hardcore ultimatum, making it very clear that this apartment was the last straw. He claims he's canceling the lease Wednesday, deleting the women/no contact for life and that he will put his full effort into being a husband and father.
Are these the only conditions? Have you given him a list of the EPs Dr H recommends?
Have you considered a poly to ensure you have RH?
I'm kind of concerned he is one day threatening the kids welfare, the next everything you ask of him is cool.
Ok, I checked my email. Why that wasn't my first move, I'll never know. Common sense seems to be lacking these days.
Indiegirl, I'll send you a reply as soon as I get the kids down for a nap.
I hand write the PBL, correct? I'll get that and the addendums done tonight.
I threw down a hardcore ultimatum, making it very clear that this apartment was the last straw. He claims he's canceling the lease Wednesday, deleting the women/no contact for life and that he will put his full effort into being a husband and father.
I immediately returned to Plan A, with Plan B going into effect Friday (8 weeks since I kicked him out) if I am not shown the canceled lease, women blocked on phone and social media and an attitude showing that me and the kids are the only priority.
I have little hope these things will actually occur, but was surprised he bowed to the ultimatum and will give him the benefit of the doubt for 4 more days. Come Friday, no proof - no contact.
Also have him write you what his Extraordinary Precautions will be. Here is a great thread about that
Extraordinary Precautons by HerPapaBear
I really believe he was scared because the ultimatum wasn't coupled with desperation. I lack fear because I have a plan and a close Plan B date, and I think he could sense this was his last chance to stop whatever was going to happen next.
I explained the much larger EP list early last week or so. He knows what's expected. I think he's floundering though and doubt he'll actually go through with canceling the lease and going no contact with other women. He's probably trying to buy time.
I'm showing him I have faith in him. Being the person he'll be missing out on. When he reneges on his offer, it's Plan B. If he's actually on board, then I will be requiring the poly, number change, etc. If that proves to be too much for him, my Plan B will be complete and ready to go.
Basically, my thinking is if he does take it back (as he's known to do) his last memories of me will be my love and support. It will be swift no contact from the person I want him to remember.
If he surprises me, great, but I will be expecting more and the same scenario will occur. My support, his denial of what I need, swift no contact. It makes it easier for me to avoid going into Plan B in anger, but rather my last ditch effort to save my feelings like the letter says.
I'm not willing to take him back and move forward while he keeps the cell phone number, lies of past involvement and party lifestyle. If he can't handle these first few things, he can deal with the having to do all the things before talking to me again.
You're on the right track.
Keep the bar set high. Because recovery won't work if he doesn't have to do any of the work and you're doing it all.
You're doing fantastic.
Dr. Appointment this week, correct?
Dr. Appointment this week, correct?
Yes, Thursday morning.
Yep. He's already trying to back out agreeing with the ultimatum. He *meant* to say that he was thinking of cancelling the lease. That he's going to talk to them tomorrow. That if he did cancel it, he wouldn't show me the canceled lease - it's the principal of the matter you see, either I believe him or I don't. Sigh. We need to move slower. As if 7 weeks wasn't enough time to run around like a 21 year old without any responsibilities.
Managed to Plan A through it, but only because Friday is Plan B day.
Of course, I now realize that his birthday is Saturday and it'll totally look like a vindictive move to Plan B the day before. Oh well.
My major concern, which may seem like an issue to deal with in the future but I can't seem to stop thinking about it, is what happens come September? If Plan B doesn't effect him, how would I handle the birth of our baby? Can I, and should I, really keep him out of the hospital? It's his daughter too, but not like I can up and leave when he comes. How can I handle visitation with a newborn? There's no way I'd feel comfortable sending her off with him days or weeks after birth, but I can't have him hanging around here.
This is totally putting the cart before the horse, but I just can't stop worrying about it.
Why did he have to make our lives so difficult?
Yep. He's already trying to back out agreeing with the ultimatum. He *meant* to say that he was thinking of cancelling the lease. That he's going to talk to them tomorrow. That if he did cancel it, he wouldn't show me the canceled lease - it's the principal of the matter you see, either I believe him or I don't.
He's right about it being a matter of principle. If you refuse to take the word of someone who has lied in the past, this makes you smart and smart people are hard to cheat on.
Theres NO WAY this guy would take a poly either, until he turns that all-important corner. I would make it a condition and be extremely unapologetic about not trusting him.
Say 'I dont trust you but I will give you the opportunity to earn back my trust. I need you to show me the following trustworthy actions'.
Plus a wife should be able to see important documents in ALL circumstances. Full transparency. Another condition.
Of course, I now realize that his birthday is Saturday and it'll totally look like a vindictive move to Plan B the day before. Oh well.
Not at all vindictive. After all you warned him, which is more than he did for you. And you start it with a love letter which would make it easy peasy for him to get on board with an absolute gift - a great marriage.
Plus its best to launch Plan B on a special event. He gets to immediately see what the result of his actions will mean for the rest of his life.
If Plan B doesn't effect him, how would I handle the birth of our baby? Can I, and should I, really keep him out of the hospital? It's his daughter too, but not like I can up and leave when he comes.
Good god no. How on earth will you get through labour with the pain of his presence? If he had hit you he could not have hurt you more and you wouldnt be considering letting him in then.
And for what? So you can share the bond of the experience together? He has willingly ruined your bond. And its not as if he's ignorant of the looming birth. He put that bond at risk, knowing full well it might bar him from his baby's birth and being able to tuck his kids in at night.
In Plan B you dont consider the waywards feelings at ALL. You warn them well in advance what they risk and if they choose a poor life, that's up to them.
BSs with children only consider the law, and their child's desire to see their dad. That's it. They dont consider the man who willingly put family life in the trash.
You'll probably need legal advice on what to do about access to the baby while so young. Only agree to what makes you comfortable.
Good god no. How on earth will you get through labour with the pain of his presence?
I'm having a scheduled c-section (one of the mixed blessings of a high risk pregnancy - no labor pain, awful recovery period) and already knew I wasn't going to have him as my support person. He was so not thrilled by that, but my c-sections always go poorly (like near death blood pressure, shots to the heart, heart paddles at the ready poorly) and I can't have someone there that I don't feel truly cares about my well-being. He thinks I'm doing it to hurt him, but if he was the right person, he's be with me throughout the entire pregnancy, not just the final moments.
I meant at the hospital. I'll be there with the baby for 3 days (if all goes well) and no one can see her unless I'm there. I rationally know that the baby won't notice or care if he comes or not, but completely struggle with the idea of him not seeing her because of me. I have an issue with it, just because to me it feels like I'm saying "I'm punishing you because you don't love me anymore." I know that's not true, but I've always had a problem considering my own feelings first.
You would not have him come to the hospital at all when you give birth. This is a consequence of the choices HE makes. You wouldn't want him there being wayward anyways. Waywards make horrible support people. They are all about THEMSELVES. You don't need that. And why taint the memory of such a wonderful event with the presence of such a wayward.
We have had some Plan Bers give birth to their children without their WHs, and they felt much better about it.
As far as visitations, have you consulted an attorney? Of course you wouldn't feel comfortable handing over a newborn, so find out your legal rights so you won't be bullied into anything.
Jennifer its not about hurting him it's about protecting yourself and ignoring his self inflicted pain.
No one cares about what drug addicts feel or think because everyone knows their thinking is not healthy nor is it helpful to anyone.
You husband is addicted to getting a buzz from women outside of his marriage. This makes whatever he thinks, feels or expresses pretty much worthless because he is not acting in a moral or respectful way so consider this when you are thinking about his feelings.
He's a big boy you don't need to help him he can figure out a way to see his baby when it comes. Protect yourself legally and let him worry about the mess he created, no judge with an ounce of compassion would force you to hand over your newborn for visitations with a cheater.
I really hope that you find the peace you deserve when you go into plan B. Your WH has been so disrespectful to you and your marriage for so many years he really needs the shock of plan B to get him on the right track. Let go of him let him hit rock bottom so he can start claiming up again from the mess he created.
I have an issue with it, just because to me it feels like I'm saying "I'm punishing you because you don't love me anymore."
No.
What you're saying is "Your behavior hurts to the point that I don't want you around me anymore. If your adultery interferes with your parenting, then that's your problem." But, of course, you won't be telling him that since you're in Plan B.
To be honest, I seriously doubt he'll show up because infants and children don't really fit into his described lifestyle. So try not to worry too much about it. But if he does show up and barges into the room, you buzz the nurse's station and ask them to remove the disruption. He can go get a court order if he wants to see the child.
I'm having a scheduled c-section (one of the mixed blessings of a high risk pregnancy - no labor pain, awful recovery period) and already knew I wasn't going to have him as my support person. He was so not thrilled by that, but my c-sections always go poorly (like near death blood pressure, shots to the heart, heart paddles at the ready poorly) and I can't have someone there that I don't feel truly cares about my well-being. He thinks I'm doing it to hurt him, but if he was the right person, he's be with me throughout the entire pregnancy, not just the final moments
.
Yes, quite right.
I know that's not true, but I've always had a problem considering my own feelings first.
No you don't. Not according to this nugget of wisdom.
He thinks I'm doing it to hurt him but if he was the right person, he's be with me throughout the entire pregnancy, not just the final moments
.
So why is putting your feelings first for the C-section it different when it comes to his seeing the baby?
Because of his role fathering her. You want the best for your unborn daughter and the 'best' would be a dad who can't wait to see her when she is born and who is there for the hard stuff as well the fun stuff. A dad who bonds with her.
Because you can't bond with a baby doing fun stuff and he's only interested in being a fun dad. You bond with a baby by caring for them. And he makes that bonding process impossible. Quite frankly because he isn't interested.
He may find her cute if he sees her in the hospital. He may enjoy showing her off to relatives. But how long would that interest last, even if he were still at home? Long enough for 4am feeds and walking the floor?
Will he find her cute enough in the hospital, bond with her enough to decide to stop mortally wounding her mother?
I'm going to alter your own wise words from your daughters perspective.
"If he was the right person TO BE MY DAD, he'd be with me all the time, instead of being with his girlfriends and not just when its fun and easy"
PBL written out and ready to go. Just about finished with the addendum.
Question: Do I include my requirements for reestablishing contact in the addendum, or does that list just go to the IM? Basically what I'm asking is do I tell him what I need, or do we just wait and see if he ever asks the IM about it?
And for the EP list, I specify what I need him to do to prove he's serious before I'm willing to resume contact separately from what the things I will expect once he returns home, correct?
I feel my question is a little jumbled, so let me know if you need clarification.
Your PBL includes NC with OW correct? If he becomes serious about recovery, he contacts your IM. Don't bog him down with all of your requirements now, his lil wayward brain won't be able to handle all of the details. You would give your list of requirements to your IM, and she can pass it on to him when he is ready for it. You actually shouldn't even be aware of him getting those requirements unless and until he is willing to meet ALL of your conditions.
I had a short list of things that my WH would need to do for me to resume direct contact with him, and then a longer list that I would then tell him about after that time.
On the shorter list, I had things like, NC with OW for LIFE, NCL written, and approved and sent by me, quitting his job(that's where he and OW met), STD testing, agreeing to MC(MB of course, but he doesn't know about MB), and that he would WANT to work on our marriage. The longer list evolved as I was in Plan B.
Your PBL includes NC with OW correct?
Yes
I had a short list of things that my WH would need to do for me to resume direct contact with him, and then a longer list that I would then tell him about after that time.
OK. I don't want to overwhelm him, but I didn't want him to come back thinking that no contact, moving back home, phone number and Facebook changes were the the only things I was going to want.
that he would WANT to work on our marriage
I'll make sure to add this to the list for the IM, since it makes it clear that I expect continued work as opposed to returning to the way things were before.
Just realized, since I'm not adding EPs to my addendum, it's finished. Which means Plan B is completely ready to go.
Have to sort out and get a short list of EPs to my IM which shouldn't take long.
Basically, I'm just sort of surprised that it's done. I could do it today if I needed to. That's both tempting and very, very scary.
I'm so ready for the constant drama to be gone, but at the same time I'm afraid of the prospect of a life without him. It would be so much easier if he was just horrible all the time.
So the plan for Friday is that he'll visit the kids, get his home fix, and get his last taste of me in my Plan A wonderfulness.
Once it's time for him to leave, he gets 3 envelopes (as he's walking out the door to avoid getting the why-are-you-doing-this confrontation). One will have his birth certificate and social security card (the last things still here), one will have my PBL, and one will have the addendum.
As soon as he's gone, I'll immediately block him on Facebook, block calls and texts from him on my phone, and block his email from my various accounts.
And either surprise myself with my strength or have a nervous breakdown. Could really go either way.
And the Plan B being ready has already proven to be too much of a temptation.
Found out that WH plans on spending his birthday (Saturday) at the bar celebrating OW1'S friend's birthday as well. When asked about it, he claimed he said no and immediately deleted his acceptance of the Facebook invitation.
I planned on Plan B starting Friday anyway, but that's not the point. This just makes the going back to being hesitant about canceling the lease and the not being ready to move back in and work on our marriage this weekend all the more telling. He's still keeping his options open because he doesn't think I'm going to risk losing him by pushing the issue. And so much for the no contact he swears has been going on for "a while now." Just how are you no contact with other women when purposely going to a bar you know they'll be at.
As much as I hate Facebook (because honestly, half these opportunities to cheat would not come about if we weren't all so effing connected), at least it's a wonderful tool to catch liars.
I can't just suck it up anymore. He's getting the PBL and stuff right after work when he drops off the kids money.
I'm giving up a free crab dinner to go into Plan B early. In return, I'm getting a chance to hold onto my last shreds of sanity. The pregnant part of me sadly thinks sanity is way overrated when it means you miss out on free shellfish. At least there's still enough of me left in my head to know that if a crab dinner is what I'm more concerned about losing, it's an acceptable trade.
That's why getting into Plan B will be so healing for you.
Your Dr. Apt tomorrow and Plan B both for you. You're putting you before your cake eating, playa WH.
Good for you.
Will you try and parallel parent while in Plan B?
Parallel Parenting
Will you try and parallel parent while in Plan B?
That is the plan.
Pick ups and drop offs are all either at school or with my parents.
Set visitation schedule and any necessary negotiations going through our IM.
No discussion/notification of activities with the children during each other's time.
That's the big one, which I sort of relish taking away. He get's a version of a home fix by constantly asking how the children are and what they've done each day. 75% of the time he contacts me, it's to ask about the kids. Multiple times a day. I think he believes he's a good dad because he asks, not realizing to be a good dad, he should be here, knowing what's going on and never having to ask. He feels connected to the kids through me, without ever having to interrupt his lifestyle to actually parent the kids. Since neither I nor my IM will be giving him the cute kid stories he wants, maybe he'll start to see the magnitude of what he's losing.
I can't just suck it up anymore. He's getting the PBL and stuff right after work when he drops off the kids money
If your IM is ready and everything is in place, then I wouldn't blame you for pulling the trigger.
We usually eat crawfish and shrimp down here, but I sympathize with your loss of a good seafood dinner. You could always go with the kids and some friends instead. The company would probably be better.
Agree with Northwood. Go out with the kid's and build some memories.
About him contacting you about the kid's and not talking to them directly. That is a typical WH tactic.
They get their needs met by you and in their crazy wayward thinking that they're been a good father.
Plan B forces him to do all that and kids aren't stupid they know.
You're doing fantastic. We have some BW that even get to the exposure step and you exposed about mulitple OW.
You need to give yourself a pat on the back.
Yes you do! I'm loving this a 'girl's gotta do what a girl's gotta do' attitude! You are in good form.
And the seafood dinner? It sounds like an excellent idea for a Plan B treat.
If one more person assumes I'm pregnant with another man's baby, I'm going to scream.
Just because he cheated on me doesn't mean I went and got pregnant by some random person.
And these people. They're not attacking me because they think I slept with someone else. They're actually trying to be supportive. They "know my marriage has been bad for a while." And "Totally understand why I would have left for someone else."
I think I'd be happier if they thought that and were yelling at me for it. Why is cheating so acceptable that people now just assume if your separated and pregnant they're happy about this new guy you must have?
There are so many things wrong with that entire thought process.
Wow. That is terrible that people would just assume that. Shame on them. If it wasn't for the fantastic people on this board, I would have lost my faith in all of humanity by now.
Some of the things that people have said to my WW that make me cringe: "I understand what you're doing, but you really need to put one fire out before starting another." "Take some time off if you need to. Everyone will ignore your personal life as long as you continue doing a good job."
And these people. They're not attacking me because they think I slept with someone else. They're actually trying to be supportive. They "know my marriage has been bad for a while." And "Totally understand why I would have left for someone else." .
Who ARE these people Jen??!!
One of the great benefits to exposure in my case was it uncovered how many people in my life were secretly freaks. The same may be happening to you.
Why is cheating so acceptable that people now just assume if your separated and pregnant they're happy about this new guy you must have?
There are so many things wrong with that entire thought process.
Because they're effing idiots and their mothers raised them wrong.
I don't know about you, but if my kids ever pull a stunt like these waywards do there will be hell to pay.
Why is cheating so acceptable that people now just assume if your separated and pregnant they're happy about this new guy you must have?
There are so many things wrong with that entire thought process.
Reminds me of this quote:
"I love mankind, it's people I can't stand" - Linus (Charles Shultz)
Gave him the PBL and rest of his stuff 4 hours ago. He had no idea what was in the envelopes, so he just hugged me and told me to text him later.
I have blocked every communication point I can think of. Apparently, my cell phone alerts me every time it blocks a call or text. Which makes the entire system pointless. It doesn't allow a voice mail message to be left and doesn't save the text, but who needs the reminder that he's calling. Or that he isn't. Going to look into blocking apps later tonight.
Explained the concept of Plan B to my mother. She took that conversation to repeatedly tell me what was wrong with my WH and how she never wanted this for me. Thanks mom. As if I walked down the aisle just hoping 7 years later I'd be knocked up by my cheating husband who was so ridiculous I had to stop speaking to him all together. I know she means well, but haven't I been dealing with enough already?
All this no contact quiet is going to take some getting used to.
Good job on the PBL.
I'm sure your mom means well...wouldn't you be pissed purple if your child was going through this? Just remember you'll get to bug your own kids later in life, too
Good job on Plan B.
Yes find out how to turn the reminders off.
Please take a hot bubble bath and light some candles and try to relax.
Worried about your blood pressure with your already high risk pregnancy.
Mom's can do that because she cares for you.
Hugs(((Jen)))
I'm sure your mom means well...wouldn't you be pissed purple if your child was going through this?
Oh, absolutely. I know she's trying her best not to just start ranting and raving and cursing about him too. Today just wasn't quite the day to hear anything at all, good or bad.
Please take a hot bubble bath and light some candles and try to relax.
I'd love to. Except my 3 year old refuses to sleep and instead is telling me "dada doesn't like us" in 10 minute intervals. I try telling her he loves her and that I love her but she's just not buying it. Right now, I can't really blame her.
Worried about your blood pressure with your already high risk pregnancy.
One of my high risk factors is that I have extreme low blood pressure. My doctor has actually told me not to worry about stress and panic attacks in previous pregnancies because the adrenaline is good for the baby in my case. The adrenaline helps prevent the dizziness and fainting, which is nice, but it also causes my lack of appetite and sleep.
Going to tell my doctor everything tomorrow and see what she can suggest, on top of the antidepressants and std test.
my 3 year old refuses to sleep and instead is telling me "dada doesn't like us" in 10 minute intervals. I try telling her he loves her and that I love her but she's just not buying it. Right now, I can't really blame her.
Others can probably advise better, but I wouldn't be telling them what their dad does or does not feel towards them as his actions will, surely, not back up such statements in their minds.
Just tell them that you love them and will be there for them...leave the "your dad loves you" to him to say.
I hope that made sense
Please take a hot bubble bath and light some candles and try to relax.
I'd love to. Except my 3 year old refuses to sleep and instead is telling me "dada doesn't like us" in 10 minute intervals. I try telling her he loves her and that I love her but she's just not buying it. Right now, I can't really blame her.
Worried about your blood pressure with your already high risk pregnancy.
Jen,
My son who is now 10 was just a bit younger than your 3 year old when my XH left me....he would stand in our upstairs window and look out saying, "Dada, where are you?" It nearly broke my heart and he STILL remembers that! The thing is, my XH has now been sober for a few years and is truly a good Dad to our son. My son sees it, I see it, my dear husband sees it! Yet, he still remembers my XH being gone......you will make it through and so will they.....I promise!
One of my high risk factors is that I have extreme low blood pressure. My doctor has actually told me not to worry about stress and panic attacks in previous pregnancies because the adrenaline is good for the baby in my case. The adrenaline helps prevent the dizziness and fainting, which is nice, but it also causes my lack of appetite and sleep.
Going to tell my doctor everything tomorrow and see what she can suggest, on top of the antidepressants and std test.
One of my high risk factors is that I have extreme low blood pressure. My doctor has actually told me not to worry about stress and panic attacks in previous pregnancies because the adrenaline is good for the baby in my case. The adrenaline helps prevent the dizziness and fainting, which is nice, but it also causes my lack of appetite and sleep.
Going to tell my doctor everything tomorrow and see what she can suggest, on top of the antidepressants and std test.
Brits_Brat and Northwood gave good advice on what to tell the kids.
Just keep being their solid rock. Kid's need structure and you're that for them.
I'm glad you'll be telling your doctor everything and glad you're getting the STD tests.
Thanks for the advice about the kids. I'm trying hard to reassure them, but I don't think I'm doing a good job. I haven't been very strong the past 2 months and whatever structure I try to provide is completely undone whenever they see my WH. It's like we're starting all over from the day he left every time he sees them. I'll just keep telling them that I love them and hope for the best.
I'm worried about them being picked up from school today. I'm going to call the school about a half hour before last pick up to make sure WH got them. I don't think he's actually read the letter I gave him and I don't want them stranded.
I managed to fall asleep a little before midnight last night. I'd hope it was a sign that I'm finally going to be able to sleep more than 3 hours a night, but I think it may have been extreme mental exhaustion. Woke up to find a blocked text on my phone from WH. Forgot to take care of that before I fell asleep. Going to fix that today after my dr appointment.
I'm not in any way wanting to contact WH, but I'm filled with unpleasant emotion. I'm sad and scared. The entire situation makes me nauseous.
A very old friend hear I was pregnant and got in touch with me yesterday. It was great reconnecting with her, but of course, I had to sort of explain the state of my marriage. That's always unpleasant.
I think I'm putting some weird vibe out into the world, making people from my past seek me out. Some guy I vaguely dated well before my WH messaged me yesterday too. Told him I was married, had kids, was currently pregnant. He told me he wants to get a drink and hook up. Sort of made me realize why I thought my WH was such a catch back then - compared to guys like this. Thought I made it clear I wasn't available or interested. He signed off saying he'd check back after I had the baby. Cause, yeah, the problem was I couldn't drink and not at all about the fact I am married. Bleck.
Sorry this is so long and rambly and kind of pointless. I have all these jumbled thoughts and feelings and just don't know what to do with myself right now.
On a brighter note, my mom has offered to make me a seafood dinner soon, so looks like I'll be getting my shellfish after all.
I'm not in any way wanting to contact WH, but I'm filled with unpleasant emotion. I'm sad and scared. The entire situation makes me nauseous.
A very old friend hear I was pregnant and got in touch with me yesterday. It was great reconnecting with her, but of course, I had to sort of explain the state of my marriage. That's always unpleasant.
It does get better! You are doing great for such a newbie.
I think I'm putting some weird vibe out into the world, making people from my past seek me out. Some guy I vaguely dated well before my WH messaged me yesterday too. Told him I was married, had kids, was currently pregnant. He told me he wants to get a drink and hook up. Sort of made me realize why I thought my WH was such a catch back then - compared to guys like this. Thought I made it clear I wasn't available or interested. He signed off saying he'd check back after I had the baby. Cause, yeah, the problem was I couldn't drink and not at all about the fact I am married. Bleck.
Common. Word travels fast and the vultures descend. I had old guys, waywards and creeps of every description trying to make good on my betrayal. I just unfriended anyone on FB.
I have returned from the dr. The nurse actually thought the scale was broken, so I may have been a little worse off than I even realized.
When the dr asked me about the weight loss, I may have burst into tears. Luckily, she's one of the best doctors I have ever seen with a wonderful bedside manner. I'm now on Prozac, she did all the STD tests she could do in office and sent me for bloodwork for the rest of the tests. I am to call her in a week to get my results. She wants me to make sure I ask for her directly, so I don't feel uncomfortable with the office staff knowing what's going on. She really is a wonderful person. She'll have the results of my bloodwork then too.
The Prozac should kick in in about 2 weeks. Until then, she advises that since I have a very active baby, to just eat a bite of something whenever I notice a kick. Won't be enough to make me nauseous, but 40-50 bites of food a day will end up being more than I've been managing to force feed myself thus far.
I have yet to find an app that will block calls without notifying me, as it told me my WS tried to call and was hung up on about 2 hours ago. My next mission is to call my provider and see if I can talk to a real live person who can tell me how to make this work right. They must have dealt with situations like this before and have some sort of way to leave me completely clueless about his attempts to contact me.
When the dr asked me about the weight loss, I may have burst into tears. Luckily, she's one of the best doctors I have ever seen with a wonderful bedside manner. I'm now on Prozac, she did all the STD tests she could do in office and sent me for bloodwork for the rest of the tests. I am to call her in a week to get my results. She wants me to make sure I ask for her directly, so I don't feel uncomfortable with the office staff knowing what's going on. She really is a wonderful person.
Give that doc a box of cookies or something, she sounds AMAZING. And take care of you! I know how it is to get weepy at the docs. I did myself when asking about STD testing. There's something about a good bedside manner, privacy and confidentiality that just makes you unravel. Hugs,
I have yet to find an app that will block calls without notifying me, as it told me my WS tried to call and was hung up on about 2 hours ago. My next mission is to call my provider and see if I can talk to a real live person who can tell me how to make this work right. They must have dealt with situations like this before and have some sort of way to leave me completely clueless about his attempts to contact me.
You will feel so much better when you are completely dark.
Is there any real need to have the damn thing near you at all right now?
Why don't you go out get a cheapie phone just as a stop gap, leave your other phone with someone trustworthy to babysit it for a few days. Then they can tell you if you get any important calls while you're sorting your new number out.
I don't think its worth the stress, do you?
About the pregnancy. I was extremely sick with hyperemesis in one of my pregnancies. I was often able to keep things like milkshakes and protein drinks down, however. Whatever sounds good, go for it, even it might not sound the healthiest. You're looking for calories here.
Also, try to stay hydrated. Keep your favorite liquids with you all the time. I'm especially concerned due to your low BP issues. Dehydration can make that worse.
The easiest way to not be notified when your WH tries to contact you is to change your number.
I like the advice from your Dr about eating whenever you feel the baby kick. Hopefully that will get you eating a bit more. You need to take extra good care of yourself.
Stay dark. You'll feel much better soon.
Is there any real need to have the damn thing near you at all right now?
Why don't you go out get a cheapie phone just as a stop gap, leave your other phone with someone trustworthy to babysit it for a few days. Then they can tell you if you get any important calls while you're sorting your new number out.
I don't think its worth the stress, do you?
Can't afford any type of new phone, but it shouldn't be a problem long term seeing that I haven't been able to pay my last 3 bills. They should be shutting the thing off any time now. I'll just start having to give out the house phone number and actually start answering it when it rings. WH has the number, but never thinks to call it, so that may work until I figure something else out.
About the pregnancy. I was extremely sick with hyperemesis in one of my pregnancies. I was often able to keep things like milkshakes and protein drinks down, however. Whatever sounds good, go for it, even it might not sound the healthiest. You're looking for calories here.
Also, try to stay hydrated. Keep your favorite liquids with you all the time. I'm especially concerned due to your low BP issues. Dehydration can make that worse.
Good advice. I am always borderline dehydrated, which I really should pay more attention to. I never knew it could complicate the low blood pressure.
Calories are definitely not an issue now. Which is wonderful, since the only thing I seem to be willing to eat is candy bars.
The easiest way to not be notified when your WH tries to contact you is to change your number.
I just checked their website and I can change the number free (yay) but I need to be current on my bill (boo). That can be taken care of as soon as my tax refund gets here, so I continue to stalk the mailbox.
Maybe I'm being overly sensitive, but I feel that someone is talking about me on Facebook. Posting statuses about how calling people out through Facebook is pathetic. Defaming people's character. Completely bankrupt of character, class, and maturity.
Vague enough it could be anyone, but this is a person who got the exposure letter. His friend more than mine. One of the many who don't seem to think his lifestyle is a problem.
I'd just block him and forget about it, except it feels like a reaction due to shame. I'm not ashamed of exposing my WH. I'm ashamed that I married someone who made that step necessary. I'm ashamed that people who I thought were friends and family, that cared about me and my kids, would rather disregard his actions and not rock the boat. I feel shame for many things, but not for this.
I got a few of those messages as well. While I can't imagine what you must be going through emotionally with your pregnancy, I can tell you that I felt the same way. Being that most people that wrote to me were Non-comissoned officers, I simply replied with a few quotes from the Enlisted Force Structure about how it was their duty to "Be mindful of, and correct any adverse morale trends." Nothing effects morale like an affair.
It's probably best to just block them and say nothing. You already know it's best not to have these people in your life anymore.
It's probably best to just block them and say nothing. You already know it's best not to have these people in your life anymore.
I'd agree with that. These days, people have such short attention spans with regards to things that next week they'll have moved on to something else.
If you must respond, just say you're sorry to hear that they support your husband's adultery and then disengage. They don't give a damn and nothing you say will change that.
I'd block him because, hey you've got boundaries, and having male friends on your FB, who could be harmful to your marriage, shouldn't be done. And if he is talking about you, who cares? And if he thinks that you are being immature by removing him from FB, who cares? I deleted a lot of friends in my PB purge. I even made my profile so only friends could see most things. It's best for you.
So many people nowadays, worry about offending people by de-friending them on FB, or not accepting a friend request, don't let it bother you.
Jen you really dont need people like that in your life!
Why do you think he cares so much? He's one of the creepy crawlies from underneath the rock you turned over. THATS why he cares. Not because he's some awesome friend. People will catch on to him now, based on the company he keeps.
When I exposed, the OW and the people who knew about their affair went all over town with their 'damage control' PR cover up. Lies and slander about me, of course were the order of the day.
Did I care? Nope. I work as a reporter and I know that when youve forced a huge PR cover up, it means you've done a great job. I loved the fact that OW had to shlep all over town telling stories to people who didnt believe her one bit.
Just unfriend and pat yourself on the back for a job well done.
At least when you had something to say, you werent too chicken to not use names and address your message directly
Its a vague, open message becaue the guy is a coward who couldnt defend himself properly if he was challenged.
I'd just block him and forget about it, except it feels like a reaction due to shame. I'm not ashamed of exposing my WH. I'm ashamed that I married someone who made that step necessary. I'm ashamed that people who I thought were friends and family, that cared about me and my kids, would rather disregard his actions and not rock the boat. I feel shame for many things, but not for this.
Youll find yourelf unfriending many people over the next few months. Infidelity makes you very picky about people's characters.
Hes not special. He's just the first of many who will go.
Unfriend and forget about him.
Oh I should mention, that of the lies they told about me, the BEST was that I had 'stalked' the OW.
Amatuers.
You shouldn't be ashamed. You should hold you're head high for doing the right thing and standing up against infidelity.
You've been a MB warrioress!!!
Unfriend and forget about him.
Done.
You've been a MB warrioress!!!
Thanks, but I'm not feeling very warrioress-like right now.
WH must have read the letter since he picked them up and dropped them off on time. I called the school to make sure they were picked up and apparently there wasn't a problem.
The kids came home and were just awful. The 3 year old had a complete meltdown over an ice pop. The 4 year old's was caused by bubbles. I'm pretty sure that's not what either was actually about.
Finally got them calmed down and into bed. Not sleeping, but not screaming either, so it's a step in the right direction.
Now I'm all out of sorts. Did good all day. Kept myself busy with super fun housework while the kids were with him. Now I'm all shaky. Why isn't he more upset? Why didn't he meet my requirements instantly? Crazy, I know.
I'm trying to Plan B for me, but it just isn't sinking in yet. I'm still in the mindset that he needs to do what I want now or I need to be over this immediately. I'm not even a big instant gratification person.
It takes time. Recovery is a marathon not a sprint. Here I am, more than 2 YEARS into PB, and sometimes, very rarely, I have these thoughts as well. It gets better. Just stick to the plan.
The kids are going to act out. They are in pain. What you need to do is Plan A them. That's what Pep told me to do when I first entered PB, and it was amazing. Carrot and stick though, don't forget. You aren't going into Plan Doormat. Set up routines, it is more important now than in any time in their lives. You'll do great.
Jennifer, you're doing great, and an inspiration!
I was pregnant during the end of my first marriage due to my husband's infidelity. It was excruciating. Some of the things that really helped me out were buying baby things, just a few, and holding and cuddling those tiny outfits to remember the special being that I cherished. Also, during labor, I got through by making a mantra to myself, "I'm doing this in spite of him!" It was really helpful to keep myself strong and focused on my power. You have all that power in you, too, and you'll do great, and you'll provide for your children, and you will be a safe haven for them.
Why are they acting out with you? Because they feel safe with you. They know you love them completely, and that they can count on you. They know you will be there with them, through good times and bad. That's why they can let out all of their pent up emotions. Maybe it would help to get some books for them about families going through divorce, just so they can realize that sometimes mommies and daddies live in different houses. But I agree with the previous poster, don't put words in to your wayward husbands mouth. Also, be honest with them, even at that age, in ways that they will understand. I didn't have marriage builders during my first marriage, and made the huge mistake that is often suggested and blamed him moving out and our divorce when talking to my very bright 2 year old as "mommy and daddy were fighting and not getting along, so we are living apart so we won't fight." She kept asking and asking, and it tore me up to have lied to her, and eventually I realized it was hurting us both so I told her the truth, that her dad was with another woman, and that he wanted to live with her, and that we would be okay by ourselves but that he was making his own choices. It lifted a ton of pressure off of us both, to have the truth out there. Even at 2, she needed that truth. So that might be another thing your children need from you at this point. Oh, finally, another trick that got me through tough times as a single mom to two little girls...do what makes you all happy at the moment. Sometimes we would have tough days, and you know what? Ice cream for dinner! Or sleepover in mom's bed! Bubble bath! Lots of indulgences for them were indulgences for us all and without the social pressure of pleasing a husband, it added spontaneity and fun to our lives when we needed it the most.
Sorry to post so long, I just wanted to reach out and encourage you, having been in that tough spot myself. I was without MB, and things would likely have been different if I had had it, but you have this great program that will lead you on to a better life. Whether that includes your husband or not, it will be a better life either way. Take care, and bless you and your munchkins.
[Why isn't he more upset? Why didn't he meet my requirements instantly? Crazy, I know.
I'm trying to Plan B for me, but it just isn't sinking in yet. I'm still in the mindset that he needs to do what I want now or I need to be over this immediately. I'm not even a big instant gratification person.
Cause he's crazy, Jen.
I am not big on patience either and my early Plan B days were similar to what you are feeling now. But then that settles down and you start concentrating on you and your own life.
He's not going to change his entire personality and lifestyle in a few weeks or even months. He may never do it. Crazy.
I think my big problem right now, mentally at least, is fear of the unknown. I don't even mean fear of being alone, or fear of him not coming back.
I mean the fear of not even knowing if he's going to do what he's supposed to with the kids. Like yesterday, instead of just knowing the kids were taken care of until he was supposed to drop them off, I had to sit around, call the school, confirm they were picked up and then wait to hear if had dropped them off early. Since he never bothered to let the IM know he's read the letter and could make it.
He's supposed to have the kids this weekend. He had never taken them for a full weekend. He's the guy with excuses. So now I wait. Do I tell the kids he's coming? Do I get a bag ready for them? Do I make plans without the kids? It's like I'm still paralyzed, always having to be concerned about what his plans are. Because he hasn't just told the IM he's going to show up. So I don't do anything else except wait and worry.
Hmm. The unknown.
Ill defer to those with practical experience of Plan Bing with kids, but I would say the way to do it is to KNOW waywards are untrustworthy.
Know that they may let you down at any given point.
Know that you are simply giving them chances to spend time with the kids. Dont assume they will make good use of those chances.
Know that you have a back up plan, if he does let you down.
It's not easy to wonder about if he will do what is expected, especially the first few times. It'll get easier. I would suggest that you make plans that are more fluid, so if he doesn't come and get them, you can change what you've got going on.
It was suggested to me that I NOT send anything with the kiddos when they went with my WH. He needs to provide them with clothing, toys, etc. I would suggest that for you as well.
It was suggested to me that I NOT send anything with the kiddos when they went with my WH. He needs to provide them with clothing, toys, etc. I would suggest that for you as well.
I read that in the parallel parenting link and wanted to do that. It would certainly make things easier for me. Of course, I feel bad not warning him that the children aren't coming with all their stuff. But that's been my issue all along - feeling bad. He'll just have to deal.
There are retail stores in your area, right? You packing things for the kids would be meeting an EN. He'll manage.
It was suggested to me that I NOT send anything with the kiddos when they went with my WH. He needs to provide them with clothing, toys, etc. I would suggest that for you as well.
I think I've heard you say in the past Scot that you won't do this because you're not a team any more. Part of the reality of his choice is losing the FC need you used to provide. Not supporting him or making his choices to be a weekend dad easy and fun etc.
And now I'm back in anger. My mother called (surprised she got through since they turned off my phone for unpaid bills) to double check what time I needed her today and Sunday for drop off and pick up. I told her 6pm, but if he hadn't shown by 6:30, we'd just assume he wasn't coming.
Being that my WH works for my father, my mother always has way too much information. She starts going on about how he has no excuse not to show up. That he took vacation days months ago for this weekend. (I had forgotten about that) He told work we were going away for his birthday. (Was never mentioned to me) I just kept telling her I know nothing about this. All I know is we are going to have the kids ready at 6 and if he doesn't show by 6:30, I've got the kids for the weekend.
Of course, I'm all raging internally. He told me to my face for the past week that he was working this weekend. That he was wanted to see me and the kids as much as possible, so he'd come here right after work each day and stay until he had to leave to go to bed for work the next day. I am just so sickened by this entire mess. I really don't need to continue to find out just how much he was lying to me and carrying on another life when I though he was sleeping or working.
And worse, in my mind anyway, is after this fun revelation, I had the uncontrollable need to look up OW1 Facebook profile. I'm blocked now. Why else would I suddenly be blocked unless he was still in active contact with her and needed to hide their activities from me? So now I'm all concerned that Plan B is pushing him to be even further involved with these other women. I shouldn't have looked at all and I know that. And trust me, I regret it. Now I have all new concerns. I just feel like I'm never going to get out of this horrible place that is right now.
You're not in Plan B if he has said things to your face in the last week.
You're not in Plan B if he has said things to your face in the last week.
She started Plan B on 4-18-12.
You're not in Plan B if he has said things to your face in the last week.
Plan B only started Wednesday night. These things were said up until that moment. I haven't seen nor spoken to him in any way since I handed over the PBL.
Gotcha! Sorry! Did you let your mom know to hush it about WH? I would think with a mom, you could say it nicely once, then stick your fingers in your ears and say, "Blah blah blah, can't hear you!"
Would your father let him go from work? I mean, no contact is no contact...
Gotcha! Sorry! Did you let your mom know to hush it about WH? I would think with a mom, you could say it nicely once, then stick your fingers in your ears and say, "Blah blah blah, can't hear you!"
I've tried to tell her, but she's "helping." That's why I've just resorted to saying "I know nothing about this" again and again in the hopes that she eventually realizes I'm not going to engage in these conversations. I fear she believes that if she just keeps telling me things, I've get over him. She doesn't seem to get that I start getting over it when I don't think about him. Those moments are easier for me to focus on me. Anything that brings the attention back on him, brings me right back to the hurt.
Would your father let him go from work? I mean, no contact is no contact...
It was so close. The board held a meeting to decide whether to let him go or not on Tuesday (yet another tidbit from mom) and they decided to give him one more chance. I want him to lose the job because the only reason they've kept him for so long with all his screw ups is because of my father, loyalty to him knowing that his daughter is pregnant and needs the health insurance. I do need the health insurance, but I would rather get whatever I could through the state than have him continue to benefit from his relationship with me. If I wasn't pregnant, he would have already been fired. I can only hope they'll fire him after I have the baby.
If your father is WH's lifeline to the job, would it not be vital to have the discussion with your father about how you feel about WH's benefiting from his marriage to you at the same time that he's destroying it?
If your father is WH's lifeline to the job, would it not be vital to have the discussion with your father about how you feel about WH's benefiting from his marriage to you at the same time that he's destroying it?
I have had that conversation. My father would like nothing more than to have his company fire my WH. But since my husband is union, a board needs to approve the firing and present the evidence to the union so they do not dispute it. The board has the evidence it needs. The union has already been warned and has stated it will not fight his dismissal. My father is not on the board, but has spoken to some of his long-time friends and associates about his (and my) desire for my WH to be fired. And yet - they continue to keep him on as a favor to us (believing we are hurt and not rationally thinking of what will happen once he is fired). No matter how much they are told that his undeserved income finances his unacceptable lifestyle and that I can find a way to survive without the health insurance, a group of old men refuse to see that I know what's best for me and the kids.
And now I'm back in anger. My mother called (surprised she got through since they turned off my phone for unpaid bills) to double check what time I needed her today and Sunday for drop off and pick up. I told her 6pm, but if he hadn't shown by 6:30, we'd just assume he wasn't coming.
Being that my WH works for my father, my mother always has way too much information. She starts going on about how he has no excuse not to show up. That he took vacation days months ago for this weekend. (I had forgotten about that) He told work we were going away for his birthday. (Was never mentioned to me) I just kept telling her I know nothing about this. All I know is we are going to have the kids ready at 6 and if he doesn't show by 6:30, I've got the kids for the weekend.
Of course, I'm all raging internally. He told me to my face for the past week that he was working this weekend. That he was wanted to see me and the kids as much as possible, so he'd come here right after work each day and stay until he had to leave to go to bed for work the next day. I am just so sickened by this entire mess. I really don't need to continue to find out just how much he was lying to me and carrying on another life when I though he was sleeping or working.
And worse, in my mind anyway, is after this fun revelation, I had the uncontrollable need to look up OW1 Facebook profile. I'm blocked now. Why else would I suddenly be blocked unless he was still in active contact with her and needed to hide their activities from me? So now I'm all concerned that Plan B is pushing him to be even further involved with these other women. I shouldn't have looked at all and I know that. And trust me, I regret it. Now I have all new concerns. I just feel like I'm never going to get out of this horrible place that is right now.
Your mother needs to understand she cannot even say his name to you.
If she doesn't, get a sandwich board and a bell.
Every mention of him is a trigger, which will cause you to be tempted to break Plan B.
Et voila:
And worse, in my mind anyway, is after this fun revelation, I had the uncontrollable need to look up OW1 Facebook profile. I'm blocked now. Why else would I suddenly be blocked unless he was still in active contact with her and needed to hide their activities from me?
Its not your business now because you've drawn your line in the sand and told him what you will do unless he is proven sincere.
Besides which, what do you expect an addict to do, when given pure freedom for the first time? Meditation in between bible study classes? He cheated when with you, what's different now? They go get high, that's what.
This is the fine art of letting him hit rock bottom and seeing how he likes it. He now has no words of wisdom, no care, no attention, no life. Just whores.
That was a fine, fun sideline when you kept his life in order, but now he's going to end up in the gutter.
It takes time though! Plan B takes time!
Affairland is a SLOW descent into hell.
It was so close. The board held a meeting to decide whether to let him go or not on Tuesday (yet another tidbit from mom) and they decided to give him one more chance. I want him to lose the job because the only reason they've kept him for so long with all his screw ups is because of my father, loyalty to him knowing that his daughter is pregnant and needs the health insurance. I do need the health insurance, but I would rather get whatever I could through the state than have him continue to benefit from his relationship with me.
.
The whole point of exposure and Plan B is that the wayward loses all support and thus hits rock bottom. I'd let this be known to your dad. Just get whatever advice you can re his savings/assets etc and get whatever support you can from him.
Why not sit your parents down, explain you want their support, you need them to shun WH and leave him to his own bad choices, if they can, but not to tell you a word of news or anything so you can focus on healing.
Why not sit your parents down, explain you want their support, you need them to shun WH and leave him to his own bad choices, if they can, but not to tell you a word of news or anything so you can focus on healing.
I agree and maybe even print up Dr. H's article on Plan B.
What Are Plan A & Plan B
My parents seem to get it now. They asked for a calendar of WH visitation so they know when to be available and managed to avoid saying anything else about him. Even when he didn't show up to pick up the kids tonight. Guess I have them for the weekend after all.
Honestly, how does a parent constantly verbally state to anyone that is willing to listen that their children are their priority and then just not show up to pick them up? Not even tell anyone they weren't coming? I'm sickened.
Anyway, I'm going to need to have our IM send him something, reiterating the visitation schedule and asking that he contact her when he plans on not showing up.
Also start documenting every time he misses a scheduled visit or is late picking them up etc.
If you do end up D this will help you very much. Don't keep it electronically an actually hand written one.
Also start documenting every time he misses a scheduled visit or is late picking them up etc.
If you do end up D this will help you very much. Don't keep it electronically an actually hand written one.
Ok, just made the first entry in a new notebook. Just curious, but why hand written?
Because typed can be messed with.
Also write when he does pick them up--good AND bad will look good to the judge.
Also start documenting every time he misses a scheduled visit or is late picking them up etc.
If you do end up D this will help you very much. Don't keep it electronically an actually hand written one.
Ok, just made the first entry in a new notebook. Just curious, but why hand written?
Because if it's done electronically like say a word doc, they can say you sat down in one sitting and made it up.
Hand written with dates is considered more " believeable".
Just the facts and use different color ink every few entries or so.
Because typed can be messed with.
Also write when he does pick them up--good AND bad will look good to the judge.
Ok, good to know. I'll start over, beginning with yesterday's good visit.
Phone calls should also be put on there. And the behaviour of the children as well. You want to show everything that is going on with the kidlets.
I don't know if I would suggest sending your WH a reminder about visitations. It's not up to you to do that anymore. He is a big boy. He needs to take care of these things himself. I would also be prepared for him to want to have contact with the kids at times that are not his scheduled visitations.
Because typed can be messed with.
Also write when he does pick them up--good AND bad will look good to the judge.
Ok, good to know. I'll start over, beginning with yesterday's good visit.
Jen, also make sure you document not just the issues that you are dealing with as far as the kids are concerned, but anything that might be pertinent to a judge getting ready to make a decision about your life.
Mortarman had a field day in court during his saga because of his diligence in writing everything down. I'm going to try and find this for you, but it may take a while.
But like everyone else said, keep a journal in your own handwriting and date every entry. Also make sure you document whether or not he's meeting his financial obligations to you and the kids. Him wanting to abandon his familial responsibilities to cat around in no way relieves him of his financial obligations.
Document, document, document.
Here's one of Mortarman's court sessions blow by blow. I know it's a lot to read, but it truly does illustrate the importance of documenting everything.
Okay…finally had time to get back to this. The kids had me going all weekend long. My wife picks them up at 3pm today, so I will get a breather for the next three days. Be able to catch up on some things that have not gotten done over all of this mess. Anyway, here is the court update:
We went into the courtroom and sat down. I was on the left side, and Mrs. Mortarman on the right. The judge was already in there, and began to ask for documents, etc from our attorneys. Then both attorneys gave their opening remarks. Mark goes ahead and asks for the very same deal they offered me in the hall earlier. My attorney states that we are going for full custody.
Once that was done, the judge asked my wife’s attorney (Mark) to call his first witness…which was my wife.
She got on the stand, which was right in front of my table, and Mark began asking all sorts of basic questions. Like her name, address (which she messed up), etc. Then he began in on my wife’s back injury from her car accident a year ago. He spent a lot of time on that one. It appears that he was trying to play the “poor wifey�� card with the judge. That she might not be able to work, or work as much because of her back.
He then went on to ask my wife about what bills she paid, how much she made, etc. Again, Mark was trying to say that I wasn’t providing anything towards the family financially and that my wife was doing all of the heavy lifting. This is all interesting, as you will see in a minute. Watch what happens once my attorney is able to introduce the facts of the situation…and how Mark and my wife react.
Anyway, almost nothing in their questioning had to do with the kids, except what she has bought them (clothes, etc). Nothing about her involvement in their education, activities, etc. My attorney picked up on that in a hurry!
When he went to cross examine my wife, he immediately zeroed in on her financial situation. He began going thru all of the costs, etc. That is when the judge chimed in, asking my wife:
��Let me get this straight. You are telling us that your back is bad and you may not be able to work. That your husband isn’t providing and you may not have enough money to support you and the children. But then you leave and get a house that runs $500 more a month. Why is that, Mrs. Mortarman?��
Between the Porky Pig response (you know the one…��aabbbaadaaa abbaaadda��), she had no response. He had busted her again on being financially irresponsible…and it was telling that the judge was the one that chimed in.
My mother’s house, where we are staying right now as I look for housing in the school district, had been vilified by my wife in their questioning…as unfit for the kids to live at (not sure why). But my attorney (Jon) fired back with “Isnt it true, Mrs. MM, that you lived in that house twice during the marriage (we were there the first 6 months of our marriage…and one other time for 2 days as we waited on a new home to be ready)? So, why was it suitable then, and not now?�� Again, Porky would have been jealous at how good she was at babbling.
He went on to ask her about the financial situation. He asked her:
��Isnt it true that your husband has given you over $9,000 since November 1st (until the end of May) to go towards household bills?��
My wife came unhinged at that!! She looked straight at me and screamed:
��You had best have check numbers and cancelled checks showing that!!!!!��
In the matter of 5 minutes, my attorney had her completely off balanced. The judge immediately went off on my wife:
��Missy, you need to be quiet. Mr. Sandground, you need to come over and advise your client on proper court behavior in court (she is not supposed to address me)��
Her attorney came over and spoke with her. And we continued. My attorney left that issue for the moment, as he would come back to it when he had me on the stand. He finished up with my wife by asking her if she was still in contact with the OM. Mark objected and the judge sustained, stating that for now…unless adultery since we moved back together can be proven, that he would leave that for the divorce hearing. Right now we were just doing custody.
So, my attorney finished with her by asking her about her job. He asked her what she did. She replied that she was a registered nurse and served in the trauma unit. He then asked what she did there. She had stated earlier that she had been moved to scheduler and light duty because of her back (this is where my attorney is awesome…he is great at picking up on things and cross-examining witnesses). So, Jon asks her “Do you make your own schedule?�� She replies that she does. My attorney then asks her why she is asking for custody, but giving Friday nights, Sat and Sun, to me. She states that it is because she works those days. He then asks her “When was the last time that you worked Friday, Saturday and Sunday.�� She says she doesn’t recall. “Last weekend?�� She says “no.�� “The weekend before?�� “No.�� “How about the weekend before that?�� “No.��
My attorney had a copy of her schedule and asked her “Isnt it true that you haven’t worked a Friday, Saturday and Sunday yet this year?�� She Porky Pigged that one with some lame “I’m not sure.��
So, my attorney closed the deal on her with asking her:
��So, if you can make your own schedule, then you can get as many hours as you need, correct?��
She answers “Yes.��
“And you have told this court that you make $5400 a month, but isn’t it true over the last two months you have made over $10,000 a month?��
She replies: “Yes, but it is because Mortarman isn’t providing any income.��
My attorney goes on to say “We’ll get to that in a minute. Mrs. Mortarman, your doctor supposedly states…I say ‘supposedly’ because we have seen no documentation here concerning your injury…but he supposedly states that you need to stop work on cut back on your hours. But you have increased them. You have increased the amount of bills that you have. You have increased the amount of your rent. Isnt this true?��
“Yes, but…��
My attorney cuts in: “So, because you have increased all of this, you have had to increase the amount of time you have been working, correct?��
“Yes��
“Do you for see having to work this much in the future, in order to make bills?��
“Yes, without help I will have to.��
“No further questions, your Honor.��
The reason for that last questioning had to do with two things. First, on the issue of her being with the kids on the weekends. Both of us had shown calendars that showed me with the kids exclusively almost every Thursday, Friday, Saturday and Sunday. By her showing that she could make her schedule, that she hadn’t worked every weekend in its entirety…but was still not with the kids at their functions…it showed that she was more interested in other things!
The second was to show that she wasn’t making $5400 for child support purposes, but instead $10,000 a month. Which would put her income ahead of mine. In Virginia, child support is a formula, based on who has custody and the amounts each parent earns. So, by showing her making more money, it would change the calculations.
So, my wife stepped down. Mark calls me next to the stand. As I head up there, the judge asks both attorneys, for the sake of time, that I stay up there for my attorney’s questioning. They agreed.
Mark asks me some simple questions. And then goes straight into the bills. “Mr. Mortarman, what bills do you pay in the household?�� I stated that I have the entire list of every dime for the last 7 months right there next to my attorney. Mark wont let me get it. He just keeps asking me “well, state to me what bills you have been paying.�� I again state that I cannot due so intelligently without my notes. He persists…but I do not back down.
Mark continues this tack until the judge asks me: “Mr. Mortarman, I believe that Mr. Sandground is trying to get the specifics of the financial situation. Can you recollect any of what he is trying to ask?�� I tell the judge that I can on some, but would be better served if I could see my notes from my Microsoft Money (which outlined every dime spent). The judge says that I can have it, and my attorney brings it to me.
Now, remember the outburst by my wife? Well, here was my response to that. Mark asks me:
“Mr. Mortarman, you stated earlier that you have provided over $9,000 in direct payments to your wife to go towards the household bills. Please list to me what payments and when.��
My reply went something like this: “November 12th, $1200, check number 134…November 7th, $1250, check number 153…December 5th, $600, check number 162…��
Mark interrupts me with “Isnt it true that that payment to her was for medical bills for the kids that you were paying her back for?��
“No it was not, sir. It was for a garnishment that my wife just received from her college that she hadn’t paid. Mrs. MM had come to me crying, stating she needed help with that…so I did.��
Mark says “Okay, next…��
I went on to list all of the checks given to her, and that they could check against the bank statements that I had given them. And they did indeed total up to more than $9000.
So, my wife’s outburst went for naught. I had provable records showing my support. Her ascertain, and Marks ascertain, that I had done nothing towards household bills had been proven false.
Mark gave up shortly thereafter, and my attorney came up to question me. He asked me questions about my involvement with the kids. Who does their homework with them? Who is at all of their events? Who takes them to church? All of the answers were “me.��
He asked me about the finances. I said I was trying to take care of the past mess we had accrued, mostly due to a flood, and to me not being able to tell Mrs. MM “no.�� I had not gotten away from our bills in my name by declaring bankruptcy like my wife.
He then asked the big question. “Mortarman…why do you believe that you should have custody of these children?�� And I went on a usual Mortarman roll:
�� I should be their primary custodian because I have been there. I have taken care of this family for 13 years…financially, emotionally, spiritually, educationally. I have given up everything I loved for these kids. And for Mrs. MM. I got custody before…but against the advice of many, I let Mrs. MM come back because I want our kids to have an intact family. I gave up my military career…what I love to do…in order to be the stable one in their lives. They had been thru He!! The last few years because of their mother’s instability. Leaving them on three occasions. Caught in adultery. Putting herself before them and before anyone else. I go to work during the week. But when I am not at work, I am with my kids. Period! Everyday. My schedule is set based on their needs and events. It is what I do. My wife has a different agenda. I wish she was the mother she used to be…but sadly, she is not. And so I must be there for them. They have leaned on me for the last 4 years of this sordid mess. I believe that I should receive custody because I have continued to put them first, before everything else. Including myself!��
And I left the stand. The judge then asked us to leave, as he went to make his decision.
Next up…the decision…the reaction…and the last few days under the new paradigm.
Standing in His Presence
Phone calls should also be put on there. And the behaviour of the children as well. You want to show everything that is going on with the kidlets.
I don't know if I would suggest sending your WH a reminder about visitations. It's not up to you to do that anymore. He is a big boy. He needs to take care of these things himself. I would also be prepared for him to want to have contact with the kids at times that are not his scheduled visitations.
My phone calls, since our oldest is only 4 and we're in Plan B, so his calls are blocked anyway.
Not sure how to document the kids behavior. It's hard to tell if my 3 year olds tantrums when after he drops her off are due to her being tired or something related to the visit.
The reminder was sent, but this will be the only time I send one. My IM suggested requesting a specific amount of time for notice be given for visits he wouldn't be showing up for. I told her to go ahead with 24 hours notice. The documented that an email was sent requesting this notice in the future under today's documentation of no show/no notification. From here on in, I'll just document that as well.
And this is the other one I was referring to. I hope you don't consider this cluttering up your thread, but I think it's somewhat relative to your sitch as to the importance of documenting EVERYTHING.
Besides, who doesn't like to read anything MM writes.
Before I tell you the verdict, I forgot to mention some things in the trial. First off, there were more records that helped me there. The first was the financial breakdown that I had. I could show where EVERY dime went. I had been keeping meticulous records since November, with less meticulous records before that. So, when her attorney and her stated that I had not provided, it was easy to prove wrong...backed up by the bank records. You cant do this overnight. You cant play catch-up, either. You must record everything as it happens. I was able to show not only what I paid directly to my wife to help with household bills, but also where I spent everything else. The other household bills that I was paying directly.
She had no counter-argument because she could not refute my records, and had no corresponding record system herself.
Secondly, I had a log (or journal). Daily, I would record the happenings of the day before. What happened with the kids. What my wife said. The days events. Once we separated, I kept a log on when we had the kids.
Now, she had her day planner...but it was obvious that she had gone in there and recorded when we had the kids after the fact. her attorney, while she was o nthe stand, had her list the days she had the kids. She went thru it, and it made it look like she had them like 26 days or something, with me havign somewhere around 14. Not true.
When I was on the stand, I read from my journal. My journal showed that we had them evenly, with 19 days for each one of them. When I proved that one of her dates in her book was wrong (because she had referenced another event when she stated she picked up the kids...but that event happened on a different day), the judge then could accept the veracity of my calendar and dismiss hers. It is one of the reasons that he came up with the custody solution he did. This was VERY key folks!
example: She stated on one question on the stand that when I got custody before, that I had left the kids with her for 16 days. I was laughing. Really. what the heck was she talking about? we had gone to court Dec 13, 2004. Sixteen days later was Dec 29. She was stating that I hadnt seen my kids for Christmas. Hah! I had my journal from back then too. Reality: I had let her have the kids for 6 days straight, right after court, because she was devastated from losing custody. I had done so out of kindness. I was repaid with her lying on the stand.
The last thing I wanted to mention before I give you the verdict and after...is that the opening arguments by the attorneys were telling. Mark wanted to concentrate on me not providing...and my wife workign hard, albeit with a very bad back. He totally concentrated o nthe financial end of the deal. And when we proved most of his ascertains wrong, there went his case also.
Jon, my attorney, concentrated first on me as a father. A guy who had suffered at the hands of his wife's betrayals...but still endeavered to save the family. Even after getting custody before. He showed the lack of care and concern by my wife, as she shipped them off to her mothers for 3 months so she could go to school and carry on adultery. He showed her leaving twice more, once for 8 months...with her barely seeing the kids. He showed me consistently providing for my wife to be able to come back and try to reconcile, only for her to fly off the handle again. That it was all about her.
Okay, now to the verdict and the aftermath...
Standing in His Presence
Also make sure you document whether or not he's meeting his financial obligations to you and the kids. Him wanting to abandon his familial responsibilities to cat around in no way relieves him of his financial obligations.
I read Mortarman's court session and definitely see the need to document beyond just the goings on with the kids.
I not sure how to go about doing that. I receive 232 court ordered child support a week. My WH gives me approximately 100 in cash a week on top of that to pay for half of the kids school/camp. That leaves me with 126 a week to completely support the children and myself. My cell phone was just shut off, car insurance leaves me in the negative the week it comes due and we almost completely have to rely on my parents for food and other basic necessities. WH makes between 1000 to 2000 a week, giving the children the bare state mandated minimum and me zip - knowing we aren't capable of surviving this way.
I guess my question is - how do I document my complete lack of income and inability to pay my bills now that he isn't helping, versus the extreme amount of money he is keeping for himself (and still managing to overdraw his account weekly without actually paying most of his own bills - creditors keep calling for him)?
Document your bills. And document what you're given.
The shortfall would be obvious to the most thick judge around.
Also make sure you document whether or not he's meeting his financial obligations to you and the kids. Him wanting to abandon his familial responsibilities to cat around in no way relieves him of his financial obligations.
I read Mortarman's court session and definitely see the need to document beyond just the goings on with the kids.
I not sure how to go about doing that. I receive 232 court ordered child support a week. My WH gives me approximately 100 in cash a week on top of that to pay for half of the kids school/camp. That leaves me with 126 a week to completely support the children and myself. My cell phone was just shut off, car insurance leaves me in the negative the week it comes due and we almost completely have to rely on my parents for food and other basic necessities. WH makes between 1000 to 2000 a week, giving the children the bare state mandated minimum and me zip - knowing we aren't capable of surviving this way.
I guess my question is - how do I document my complete lack of income and inability to pay my bills now that he isn't helping, versus the extreme amount of money he is keeping for himself (and still managing to overdraw his account weekly without actually paying most of his own bills - creditors keep calling for him)?
Pretty much the same way you just posted here. Document everything, and then when you have enough to support your argument for more child support and maintenance, head back to court.
Why hasn't he been hammered with more court ordered support besides just child support. What state do you live in?
Why hasn't he been hammered with more court ordered support besides just child support. What state do you live in?
I live in New Jersey. I figured out how to file for child support on my own (without a lawyer) in 2010 when he stopped supporting me and the kids as a way to get me to stop questioning his relationships with other women. Without a lawyer, I had no idea how to file for anything else. Once we were in FR, he resumed supporting us and wanted me to ask for the CS order to be dismissed. Glad I had the feeling something was off and postponed or we'd be even worse off.
Did you ever go to that lawyer place that Brits_Brat told you about?
Time to get yourself to an attorney. Go to women's shelters and ask them who might be able to help you out. Your husband may even need to pay for your lawyer. Find out your legal rights.
Just ensure that when you are documenting, you do it emotionless. Meaning, you write things out very clinically.
Jennifer, I had originally gone to a lawyer to file for separation but after thinking on it, I realized that my only concern was making sure my children were financially taken care of by their father. If he wanted to separate, let HIM pay for it! HA
I then downloaded the forms for child support from my county office. You can get started here:
http://www.njchildsupport.org/Article.asp?AID=35good luck to you and your children!
I guess my question is - how do I document my complete lack of income and inability to pay my bills now that he isn't helping, versus the extreme amount of money he is keeping for himself (and still managing to overdraw his account weekly without actually paying most of his own bills - creditors keep calling for him)?
How about applying for foodstamps (and medicaid while you're at it, just to have it set up for if/when he loses his job)? It's really helpful when you need it and will make the fact that he is not supporting you obvious. And then if your parents help you out, it can be on other things (like the phone bill!) Also, if the creditor calls are annoying or obnoxious, I would be sure to give them all his contact information and tell them he no longer lives with you. They *should* stop calling you.
Did you ever go to that lawyer place that Brits_Brat told you about?
They were in really bad areas that I didn't feel safe going to alone or pregnant. I applied online for my states legal service referral program which should connect me to someone who will work with me pro bono or on a low income basis. I'm waiting for their call. But now that my phone is shut off . . .
Jennifer, I had originally gone to a lawyer to file for separation but after thinking on it, I realized that my only concern was making sure my children were financially taken care of by their father. If he wanted to separate, let HIM pay for it! HA
I then downloaded the forms for child support from my county office. You can get started here:
http://www.njchildsupport.org/Article.asp?AID=35good luck to you and your children!
I've already got an active child support order. I need to find something in the way of spousal support. And unfortunately, my state does not do legal separation.
How about applying for foodstamps (and medicaid while you're at it, just to have it set up for if/when he loses his job)? It's really helpful when you need it and will make the fact that he is not supporting you obvious. And then if your parents help you out, it can be on other things (like the phone bill!) Also, if the creditor calls are annoying or obnoxious, I would be sure to give them all his contact information and tell them he no longer lives with you. They *should* stop calling you.
I applied online for foodstamps and just about everything social services offers. I'm waiting for them to contact me with my interview appointment date. Hopefully they'll send it through email since my phone is no longer turned on.
The creditors have his cell phone number but he won't answer their calls. They refuse to stop calling here since I can't give them a new house number for him. They've begun calling my extended family looking for him.
Mornings are the worst for me. I wake up in such a bad mood, mad at him, mad at the world. As the day progresses, I get a little better and by the time I finally go to bed, I'm just about indifferent to his entire existence. I just need to get to the point where I don't wake up thinking of him and the hurt he's causing.
Today's WH's 30th birthday. I momentarily considered dialing his number and immediately handing the phone to the kids. But I'd have to coach them through the conversation. And why bother, really? He could have had them the entire weekend, but didn't see any reason to show up or say he wasn't coming. The kids don't realize it's his birthday, so I'm just going to forget about it as well. If it hurts him, well, good.
I also considered asking the IM to request that he pay my back cell phone bill, since he should have been paying it all along and I do need it for the kids (as well as pregnancy appointments and unbeknownst to him, legal stuff). But I figure he'll ignore or deny the request and I'm trying to keep IM contact to a minimum as well since he hasn't has yet to utilize her. Only upside I see, if I do have her make the request for me, I can document that he ignored or denied a request that would help me take care of both the pregnancy and the other kids.
Can you put your mom or dad's number as your contact?
Can you put your mom or dad's number as your contact?
If I missed their call, which it seems I most likely have, I'll have to reapply. It's a week today since I applied and they said 2 business days, so I'll be reapplying as soon as I get 45 uninterrupted minutes (probably later tonight) and will add the house phone number and hope I'm here when they call. I'm usually here. Can't give my parents cell phone number because they do an intake interview then and I need to be the one who speaks with them.
You've got to make visiting a lawyer a TOP priority. Get someone to go with you to the bad neighborhoods and do whatever it takes to get some legal advice. Your WH is leaving you high and dry financially and you need help now.
Punishing you by withholding funds is one of his most effective weapons. It's worked well in the past. You have to confront this and get support lined up. Solid support. Get that phone back on if you can and get a lawyer pronto!
I know I have to get the legal ball rolling and I will come Tuesday when I the kids are in school and I have a completely free day to call and visit everywhere I need to.
My motivation to do anything at all is completely shot right now. I want to lie in bed and never do anything ever again.
I want to call my stupid WH and tell him I give up. Tell him to keep his skanky women and his puddles of money. Tell him I want nothing at all to do with him. Get the quickie cheap divorce and be done with it, no hope of recovery.
I know it's the depression talking. I know that's not rationally what I want at all.
I'm just not feeling the benefit of Plan B right now. I still feel awful, just now I don't have contact either. Instead of focusing my anger and worry on what he's doing or saying, I'm mad and worried about everything he could possibly be doing.
I feel like I'm rewarding him, allowing him to go off and do whatever he wants without even having to hear a bad word about it.
It's all out of sight, out of mind for him. He could go through the IM, but doesn't bother. Hell there's a million ways he could break my no contact if he actually wanted to. Show up at the house, call from someone else's cell phone, message from someone else's facebook, create a new email address that isn't blocked, etc, etc, etc. But no, he's not crazed over the loss of me. He's drinking and whoring and not a care in the world. And that is killing me. Because all he's learned from his so far is that tiny piece of himself that wasn't willing to just let me go completely before is easily overcome.
Thus ends my melodramatic outburst for the day.
(((Jennifer)))
We feel you and your pain. I know it is hard to hear at the moment but time will help. You deserve more than just scraps.
Very important part of Plan B is taking care of you. What can you do for you?
Read these for inspiration, some long but inspiring.
Be the Lighthouse Neak's Story Neak's story is a very good read.
You'll feel much better once you've got legal advice and proper funding in place.
Now I want to hear some self care stuff. What's it going to be? Funny movies and buttery popcorn? Lunch with the girls? Sunday walk and picnic? Mani pedi?
Jennifer, this was also on the website I linked to as well as info on how to get food stamps and other social services
"What if I need an increase in my child support order or medical support for my children? Anytime there is a
substantial change of circumstances, a motion can be filed with the Family Division to modify the terms of the court order.
You may also request a review of the amount of your child support order at least once every 3 years from the date the
order was entered or modified by the court. Reviews are completed by your local County Welfare Agency Child Support Unit
(CWA/CSU). This service is available to you even if you have never been a recipient of Temporary Assistance to Needy
Families (TANF). Additionally you can ask for assistance in obtaining medical support for your child if it is not included in
your current order. The phone numbers for the CWA are listed on pages 1-4 of the application."
Most states now have free cell phones for low income. Here is one:
https://www.safelinkwireless.com/Safelink/homeIf that doesn't cover your state there is probably another one that does.
Very important part of Plan B is taking care of you. What can you do for you?
Really, for a simple question, I have no response. What can I do for me? I can't even remember the last time I did something for me.
My life is my kids, and for the most part that's a good thing. I have to continue with the basic necessities of life because of them. I have to get out of bed, shower, cook food, do laundry, keep things clean, leave the house, spend time outside, go to stores and otherwise interact with people. I do it because they need me too. Free moments are few and far between and I have no idea how to fill them, especially in any way that would considered "for me."
This is something I'm going to have to really think about and make time for. It's really sad that I can't even envision doing something for myself. I think I lost myself a long time ago.
Read these for inspiration, some long but inspiring.
I spent most of the day reading the links. They are inspiring, but I seem to be wallowing in a contrary mood.
How can I be a lighthouse for my WS when I've built a wall around myself purposely to ensure he can't see me?
Neak's story is definitely inspiring. Unfortunately, I wish I had read it (and had known about MB in general) when I found out about the very first long-term EA in 2007. Back when he was willing to try anything to keep me from leaving, when he was capable of acknowledging the pain he caused me, before I became the person he blamed for own his behavior.
I worry there have been too many D Days, too many FRs, too many LBing reactions to ever recover.
Now I want to hear some self care stuff. What's it going to be? Funny movies and buttery popcorn? Lunch with the girls? Sunday walk and picnic? Mani pedi?
I'm going to really attempt to shower. I will very likely do my hair. I could quite possibly put on makeup. Then I will be taking the children to a baby shower, where they will almost definitely run around like maniacs. I will convince myself not to worry about it, eat food, ohh and ahh over baby stuff and engage in small talk with distant relatives as if my life was normal.
Not exactly the self care I really need to be striving for, but it should prove a wonderful distraction for my entire Sunday and that's got to be better than the obsessing and wallowing that has taken over the past few days.
Jennifer, this was also on the website I linked to as well as info on how to get food stamps and other social services
"What if I need an increase in my child support order or medical support for my children? Anytime there is a
substantial change of circumstances, a motion can be filed with the Family Division to modify the terms of the court order.
You may also request a review of the amount of your child support order at least once every 3 years from the date the
order was entered or modified by the court. Reviews are completed by your local County Welfare Agency Child Support Unit
(CWA/CSU). This service is available to you even if you have never been a recipient of Temporary Assistance to Needy
Families (TANF). Additionally you can ask for assistance in obtaining medical support for your child if it is not included in
your current order. The phone numbers for the CWA are listed on pages 1-4 of the application."
That's just about the only thing I know how to do - modify the child support. I will need to once the baby is born - although that hinges on many unknowns such as his not being around to sign the birth certificate and how long it takes to get social security number.
I could file for a modification now (which would be approved since he made about 15,000 more last year than the year the order was enforced) and would most likely have a court date by the beginning of June. I worry how it would look, in the judge's eyes, to do that and then file to modify again in when I got the baby's SSN (probably in mid October). Attempting for modification twice in a 4 month time frame worries me.
I worry there have been too many D Days, too many FRs, too many LBing reactions to ever recover.
But it isn't your responsibility to worry about that. Its WHs.
There is no marriage so neglected, so damaged, so beaten that it can't be recovered by two committed people.
But the mess is his to clear up. He worries about making the U-turn, doing the heavy lifting, persuading you to stay on board.
You're are going to feel low. You're recoving from years of wounds. But you ARE recovering. It started the day you went into Plan B.
Get all the tears out. I mean it, cry when you can. It won't last forever, but it needs to be done. You break down a bit and rebuild up stronger.
We are here, and we know what its like. Scary, painful, nightmarish. Too much to take.
But this too, will pass. It gets better.
Most states now have free cell phones for low income.
Thanks. I just applied. I just need to find a way to prove my lack of income. It said something about using a child support decree, so I'm going to hunt around for that later tonight. This kind of proof would have been so much easier had I not agreed to file our taxes jointly this year.
There is no marriage so neglected, so damaged, so beaten that it can't be recovered by two committed people.
But the mess is his to clear up. He worries about making the U-turn, doing the heavy lifting, persuading you to stay on board.
That's what worries me. Two committed people. What if he doesn't want to? I guess that's the reality I'm finally starting to face and really struggling with. I know I can't do any more than I already have, know that it has to be his decision and from here on in he's the one who had to do the work. I just don't think he will.
You're are going to feel low. You're recoving from years of wounds. But you ARE recovering. It started the day you went into Plan B.
Get all the tears out. I mean it, cry when you can. It won't last forever, but it needs to be done. You break down a bit and rebuild up stronger.
I sure hope so, because the beginning of recovery sure doesn't feel great. I'm not a crier, but I've had cause to cry a fair bit over the last couple of year. Big, massive, hysterical, hyperventilating cries. It's not like that now, since he can't say or do anything to set me off like that. But I cry more now in Plan B than ever before. Just the teary, out of nowhere cries that last just a few minutes. At least twice today alone. I'd love to blame it on the pregnancy (hormones are a wonderful scapegoat) but that's not it. It's just me struggling to deal day to day.
I feel weak. I'm not good at weak. I feel as if I have no control over any aspect of my life. I'm equally bad at letting go of control. I survived perfectly well the first 24 years of my life without him. It stands to reason that I should be able to survive just as well without him in the future if need be. It was 8 years of my life, sure, but half the time they weren't even pleasant. I don't know why I'm having such a hard time accepting that I need to worry about me and let him worry about him and the possibility of us.
About the birth certificate, at least in my state, if you are married your husband is automatically entered, no need to be present. Is it different in NJ?
I wouldn't worry about filing the child support modification twice...and you have good reason to. And who knows, if he loses his job before the baby's born, you might regret waiting if there is no way to modify it then. Do whatever you need to do to provide for your children, they only have you to count on.
When is your baby due?
About the birth certificate, at least in my state, if you are married your husband is automatically entered, no need to be present. Is it different in NJ?
I tried to google it to find out. I know since we're married, he's automatically assumed to be the father by the court system until proved otherwise, but wasn't sure what happened with unsigned birth certificates (which are needed to get a SSN, I think). Google has been less than helpful.
I wouldn't worry about filing the child support modification twice...and you have good reason to. And who knows, if he loses his job before the baby's born, you might regret waiting if there is no way to modify it then. Do whatever you need to do to provide for your children, they only have you to count on.
Wow, with all my planning and consideration involving his potential loss of job and what that would mean for health insurance, I never once considered what that would mean in regards to child support. You are definitely right. I should do it now because if he does lose his job by the time I have to modify again, I would get significantly less and might want to hold off modifying until he found a job so it wouldn't be lowered. Yet another thing to start taking care of Tuesday.
September 9th. But I'll have a c-section before then. Probably September 4th, if not even a little earlier.
And maybe the child support receptionist lady could point me towards the appropriate spousal support paperwork whilst there. That could be mighty helpful and save me a ton of worry and money.
There is no marriage so neglected, so damaged, so beaten that it can't be recovered by two committed people.
But the mess is his to clear up. He worries about making the U-turn, doing the heavy lifting, persuading you to stay on board.
That's what worries me. Two committed people. What if he doesn't want to? I guess that's the reality I'm finally starting to face and really struggling with. I know I can't do any more than I already have, know that it has to be his decision and from here on in he's the one who had to do the work. I just don't think he will..
Your job is to worry about a PERSONAL recovery, not the level of his folly. Not about what he will or will not do. I found that mantras helped me here. Whenever the idea that 'he wont do it' came into my head I would automatically respond to myself 'what a fool that would make him' and that helped dismiss the irrelevant thought.
I sure hope so, because the beginning of recovery sure doesn't feel great. I'm not a crier, but I've had cause to cry a fair bit over the last couple of year. Big, massive, hysterical, hyperventilating cries. It's not like that now, since he can't say or do anything to set me off like that. But I cry more now in Plan B than ever before. Just the teary, out of nowhere cries that last just a few minutes. At least twice today alone. I'd love to blame it on the pregnancy (hormones are a wonderful scapegoat) but that's not it. It's just me struggling to deal day to day.
Not at all! It is what you are SUPPOSED to be doing. Tears are a part of the WORK. They wont last forever, dont fear them and dont for heavens sake think them sign of weakness and fight them.
Whenever I felt the tears coming on, early in Plan B I let myself go with them and had a good PROPER cry. I am sure that is why I got through withdrawal slightly quicker than usual. Eventually you will be all cried out, so do it sooner rather than later.
I feel weak. I'm not good at weak. I feel as if I have no control over any aspect of my life. I'm equally bad at letting go of control. I survived perfectly well the first 24 years of my life without him. It stands to reason that I should be able to survive just as well without him in the future if need be. It was 8 years of my life, sure, but half the time they weren't even pleasant. I don't know why I'm having such a hard time accepting that I need to worry about me and let him worry about him and the possibility of us.
It's withdrawal. It's not permanent.
And who says you have no control? Why do you describe grieving as weak? Rather it is fear of grief that I would call weak.
You do have a PLAN. Personal recovery. That is what is in your control.
The following things are in your control.
Letting the tears come, not fearing them.
Making the most of your F&F support,
Eating
Sleeping
Thinking, grieving, processing
Self care. Every day.
Plans for the future
Reviewing your 'bucket list'
Seizing opportunities, freedom and new directions
Living how you want to live - no POJA!
You have PLENTY of control.
It just doesnt feel that way when grief has you in its grasp.
I just HATED withdrawal at the time. I hated how it completely felled me day after day and the unanticipated level of pain, and how it just wouldnt let up and how it seemed it would go on forever.
But if I could see what the pain would eventually earn me, I would have gone through it more gladly.
Now I am really grateful for the experience. Its like the pain of climbimg a mountain without being able to see where you're headed. Then one day you do, and the pain - the hard work and the earning of it - becomes so important.
Just hang in there.
The first 3 days of no contact, my emotions were like clockwork. I'd be angry for the first few hours of the day, then sad for the majority of the day, and finally spend my last hour or so awake completely indifferent to the situation, the future and my WH is general. There would be moments, sometimes long ones, of distraction where I wouldn't feel the full brunt of whichever emotion, but it was always there, coloring everything I did.
Today seems different. I woke up angry, but that only lasted about a half hour. I then slipped immediately into indifference. I'm not naive enough to think I'm done being sad, but this is a step in the right direction. I can function during indifference. It's not happiness, but it's definitely better than I expected now and something I can work with.
Every day is different, the up and down of the rollercoaster.
Over time the rollercoaster slows and stops, bad days are fewer.
I know it sounds strange but a year on, I cherish the memory of the bad days. They changed me forever and for the better.
I am not in your state, but in mine only one parent needs to sign the BC. Uually Mom, since she is the one in the hospital 24/7. I found it funny with my daughter, who we went back-and-forth on her name, that I had the right to name her whatever I wanted and sign off on it by myself and it would be done, put on her BC. I did put down our most recent joint decision. NOT the name I tried to name all my kids.
Soldiers have children while overseas and nothing is held up on the BC.
I think you should only need one parent to sign; it is two if the parents are not married.
Every day is different, the up and down of the rollercoaster.
Over time the rollercoaster slows and stops, bad days are fewer.
I know it sounds strange but a year on, I cherish the memory of the bad days. They changed me forever and for the better.
I have difficulty imagining ever having good thoughts about the bad days, but I am just grateful today wasn't a bad day. We had a great time at the baby shower and I learned that I can still have a good time, if distracted enough. There was a missed call from the WH on my mom's phone today and when I saw it, it made me pause for a second, but managed to put it out of my mind without too much thought. It's progress and I'll take any I can get.
I did notice how much my thoughts are colored by my situation. The women were sitting around, complaining about their husbands. How this one just watches TV all the time. How that one never mows the lawn. I sort of just wanted to shake them and yell "yeah well mine won't stop banging random women." Kept that impulse in check and went to find a better conversation.
I think you should only need one parent to sign; it is two if the parents are not married.
That's reassuring. Now that I think about it, my doctor should know for sure one way or another. She knows my situation, so I'll ask her the next time I see her just to be sure.
If today is a test, I think I'm passing nicely. Hopefully, this isn't me talking too soon.
I went to bed at a reasonable time. Slept like a baby. Until my phone started ringing (apparently, when they shut off my phone, they only turned off the internet and my ability to call or text out. I still get incoming calls and texts - if not blocked).
From 5 am on, my phone has rung non-stop. It started earlier than that, but my phone automatically blocks any caller who blocks their number from my caller id. Got a couple of those, but by 5, calls were coming through from a number I don't know. I don't answer numbers I don't know.
After about 13 calls from the same number, I reverse looked up the number. It's a land line in one of the areas my husband works. Between that and the fact I got a couple more calls from a number one off from the 13 calls number, I've reasonably deduced my WH is calling from a business phone at work. Obsessively. Every 15 minutes.
I blocked both numbers. Any time I start to question why he's trying to call so much now, I push the ideas out of my head. It doesn't matter. He didn't pick up the kids. He didn't tell anyone he wasn't coming. He purposely spent his birthday weekend with his friends instead of them. And the big one - I'm waiting for the results of my STD test, do I really want to talk to a man who could have given me an STD? All very effective in making me not at all interested in anything he has to say.
Debating between having the IM tell him the ONLY way he can contact me is through her, or just ignoring it so he doesn't even realize I know he tried to call.
Debating between having the IM tell him the ONLY way he can contact me is through her, or just ignoring it so he doesn't even realize I know he tried to call.
I wouldn't respond at all. If you told him to contact the IM, then he knows to contact the IM and is just trying to wear you down.
I wouldn't respond at all. If you told him to contact the IM, then he knows to contact the IM and is just trying to wear you down.
Good point. Of course, that's backfiring for him, since all he's really doing is further annoying me by proving that my needs mean squat to him.
Have there been waywards that flat out never acknowledged their IM's or do they all eventually fall in line with the plan?
From the posts that I've read, there's usually a reluctance on the part of the WH to work with an IM.
I think a lot depends on how persistant you are in sticking with radio silence.
I think a lot depends on how persistant you are in sticking with radio silence.
I have done silence perfectly and plan to continue to do so, so hopefully he's catch on soon enough.
But, damn, I hope there isn't a limit to how many numbers I can block. He just started from another number from work. They've got like a 100 of them at each location. I guess we'll see. Very thankful for reverse lookups right now. Could have easily convinced myself it was someone else in an emergency situation with the sheer number of calls.
Could have easily convinced myself it was someone else in an emergency situation with the sheer number of calls.
Perfectly understandable.
If all kids are accounted for and no fingers or toes are missing, then the only emergency is that you aren't playing in his sandbox and he wants to complain about it to you.
Spare yourself the drama and continue as-is. You're doing great!
But, damn, I hope there isn't a limit to how many numbers I can block. He just started from another number from work. They've got like a 100 of them at each location.
If you can just sit tight for the next day or so while he goes through all the phones at work, then he'll get the message and taper off. Don't cave in!
Could have easily convinced myself it was someone else in an emergency situation with the sheer number of calls.
Perfectly understandable.
If all kids are accounted for and no fingers or toes are missing, then the only emergency is that you aren't playing in his sandbox and he wants to complain about it to you.
Spare yourself the drama and continue as-is. You're doing great!
And remember too...that sandbox is also where cats like to bury their treasures too...
can you turn your phone off?
Change your number. This way, no matter how many numbers he changes to, he won't be calling YOU anymore.
Big vent here: So I blocked the calls. The calls stopped. WH finally goes through the IM, trying to get weekend visitation times changed. I deny it. He accepts the denial. Everything should be fine.
I log onto facebook and see I have a new public subscriber. I very, very rarely share anything publicly, so normally I wouldn't have even noticed. But I had a weird feeling. So my new subscriber is my WH initials and his last name. No friends. Only following me. Obviously, it's him. I've blocked it, but just what the hell?
He's DESPERATE to get a fix off you. You were definitely right to block that user.
jenn, i was catching up on your thread and really starting to worry about you. then i hit this part:
I sort of just wanted to shake them and yell "yeah well mine won't stop banging random women." Kept that impulse in check and went to find a better conversation.
there's fight in the old girl yet! keep up the good work. withdrawal is hard, even when they are total poop heads. it gets better. keep the focus on YOU.
Obviously, it's him. I've blocked it, but just what the hell?
Jen that's so, so common! You've read the craziest words out of a wayward's piehole thread, you know they all say the same stuff, do the same things, work from the same map.
You make up half his needs-addiction. He needs his fix of you, without giving up his other fixes. Waywards will do anything to get past the IM and get that fix.
Thats why all BSs in Plan B have to seal up ALL potential holes tight. You sound like you're on the case.
Ok, so I need help. No idea what to do.
Doorbell rings, I look out all the windows but don't see a car. It's WH. He hid his car up the road, so I'd answer the door.
He's so sorry. Wants to come back. Been going crazy. Blah, blah, blah. I'm just sort of frozen looking at him. Like a deer in headlights.
Finally, I told him that he knew what I needed for him to return. No contact. Facebook blocks. New cell phone number. Moving home. No more friends that don't respect my marriage. No going to bars without me. No coming home at 4am. etc, etc, etc.
Swears to all of it. Except the cell phone number. Claims he can block them, but changing his number will be too hard with work. I don't really buy that.
I sort of let him just keep talking. Attempting to judge internally what was the truth and what was just gas lighting. I think he truly wants to come home. I don't think he feels remorse though. I think he'll try to work on our marriage, but I'm not convinced that without remorse he won't be tempted to do it again.
Honestly, though all this, as much as I want my husband back, I flat out refuse to go back to the way things were. I looked at him and just couldn't decide whether to try to make this work with him or to just let him go completely and return to Plan B. Finally, I agreed to resume the discussion after I had time to think (and mostly talk to you guys), but made clear that if the conversation didn't show that we were going to make real changes, that I would not go back to the way things were - that I would rather stay dark.
He revealed that this weekend he got (another) DUI. I think this may be a motivating factor. I expected it. Part of the hitting rock bottom his lifestyle was headed for. But am unsure it's enough to make him really regret the things that led up to it. I'm not sure he's fallen low enough.
I just don't know what to do. Advice or insight would be hugely appreciated right now.
Keep up Plan B. Go dark until he is willing to do ALL that you have asked.
He will agree to anything, but once he is in the door, well...unless your bar is high, he will do nothing.
Jennifer, the fact that he circumvented your Plan B to make contact should tell you all you need to know about his sincerity and remorse. If he were truly remorseful and repentant he would have contacted your IM instead of doing it HIS way. He is simply trying to control you and make you crumble. I wouldn't even think about discussing this with him any further than you already have if were you.
JMO, but you need to go back dark
I pulled my my list of EPs, both short term and long term. I'm going to send them to him and get a response as to whether he will do everything or not.
If he isn't willing to meet every one, I'll tell him that I need EVERY one met before I will feel comfortable moving forward. Anything other than absolute agreement and I'll cut off the communication and resume Plan B until he can prove he has done everything I asked.
Listen to this radio clip. It is Dr H telling what a WH needs to do to show he id serious about recovery and add that as an EP.
Radio clip of whay a WH needs to do
Swears to all of it. Except the cell phone number. Claims he can block them, but changing his number will be too hard with work. I don't really buy that.
Maybe I'm just in a mood today, but my response would have been "This isn't an effing negotiation" and involved slamming the door right then and there.
If I were you, I would just decide right now NOT to do anything with this and remain dark while you get your thoughts together. The last thing you want to do is shoot off a response today and then try to muddle your way through it.
Do NOT communicate with him again. You need time to THINK!!!! He is NOT serious, and you need to give yourself time to accept that. You are jumping at his straws, and the ones he is offering are pitifully SHORT.
He called you fifteen times beginning at 5 am. Who do you think that is about? Do you think it is because he loves you and is willing to do ANYTHING to keep you?
Here's a hint - NO.
He needs to really experience his life without you. And YOU need time to so that you can read his BS accurately.
Negotiating your marriage on the doorstep is not Plan B!
He now thinks he can try that whenever.
He would be respecting your wishes and using the IM if he were serious.
But neutral people are hard to manipulate and its easier to wear a BW down into exhaustion to get that cake back.
The fact that he showed up at your house is very telling, as TW suggested.
Also, the fact that he isn't even willing to change his number is a big red flag.
And you have noticed that he is not completely remorseful, and DrH suggests that a BW doesn't consider recovery with a WH that isn't remorseful.
Let's try to get your list of requirements up to a standard to try not to lead to a FR.
What about a poly? What about not being allowed on FB? Opposite sex friendships are off the table(for both of you). A NCL to OW.
Oh, and from now on, any of your conditions, etc, should be passed through your IM. Go dark until he is ready to meet ALL of your conditions.
I would also add that FB and all social networking sites need to go. They'll always hang over you like a cloud.
A poly is a good idea for reassurance and to break his habit of lying. He needs to know that he can't take things underground, get an affair phone, be romantic for a few months and then business as usual.
Changing his number is minimal.
Jen,
Speaking from experience....getting multiple DUI's indicates your husband has a drinking problem. Until he gets a grip on that, the alcohol will fuel the affairs and the affairs will fuel the alcohol. A condition of his returning home has to be that he gets in and stays in a 12 step program.
ITA with Brits. Do you have any suspicions that he is using anything else besides alcohol?
Update Jen? What's happening?
Are you ok Jen?
Let us know how things are.
I don't even know where to start. I told you guys he came here and that I was going to send him my list of EPs. I did that.
I thought myself very much in control of the situation. And I guess I was - at least what I would allow to happen. Can't even be in control of another person's reactions though.
I very calmly stood up for myself. I said this wasn't a negotiation. That years of lying and other women had damaged my trust in him and the only way we could reconcile was to make these changes. He agreed to everything I asked for. For about 30 seconds.
He'll change his phone number, but it can't be done until he pays the bill and he doesn't know when that will be. He'll move back in, but it's my fault he can't now because I want the phone number changed first.
All I heard was foot dragging. It was so clear, that he planned on doing these things, but not until he got one last hurrah, so to speak. So I went to OW1's house, and there was his car. I knocked, waited, knocked again, waited some more and then he finally came out - with a million lies. He was there with a friend, but the friend couldn't come out because he was high. When I said I'd seen the friend high before, all of a sudden he was also upstairs with some girl. Nothing he said mattered at that point, because minutes before I showed up there, he claimed he didn't know where she lived, hadn't talked to her in forever and was at a different friend's house earlier but was headed up north as we speak. Yeah.
I was done. I went home. He followed me. Begging, swearing to do anything to fix us. I don't know why I listened. I certainly didn't mean to. But I did. Even then, after finding him at her house, I listened.
And it was more of the same. The number change at a later date. Moving in, after the number change. And my personal favorite - giving me all the passwords, but I'd only have a week with them to feel better and then I wasn't allowed to go through his stuff anymore.
I, still surprisingly calmly, explained that this was not a negotiation. That I needed these things now and things needed to be open to me until I felt satisfied, even if it took years. That hiding things would no longer be tolerated in any form. And to talk to the IM if and when he decided he could actually do what was required of him.
As I was going inside, I was told he wanted the girl from last week (the Plan A girl), the girl that would have done anything to be a family - not this frigid b**** who is only making him jump through stupid hoops.
I'm back in Plan B. All contact points cut off. I have to figure out some way to know if he's at my door before I answer it, but otherwise, he has no way to get in contact with me. He knows to go through the IM, and that's that.
My internet was shut off and I had no way to contact the IM or the board. I thought I could handle it, and maybe I could have if this had been a real reconciliation attempt, but things got completely out of control because he was just trying to bully me into accepting the way things used to be.
I'm so hurt. For at least a short time, I really believed that it was possible to fix things now. It was short, because I've gotten a lot better at recognizing the motives behind what he says, but those few minutes were something I wanted so badly that it really hurts to have them taken away again.
This has gotten long and I'm probably leaving out key information. I just don't know anymore. Oh, but I did get my STD tests back and they were clean so at least there is that. And maybe it's just the placebo effect - since the Prozac shouldn't kick in for at least another week - but I seem to be holding it together better than I was before. Eating, sleeping, gained a pound, even throughout this mess. Very minimal crying, right after returning to Plan B. It's still going to take me a while to get past this last set back though.
Going to go try to respond to the messages I missed from my drama and being internet free.
Let's try to get your list of requirements up to a standard to try not to lead to a FR.
Now:
1 - Change cell phone number and give password & account access.
2 - Change email account and give password.
3 - Eliminate all non-family women on social networking accounts and give password.
4 - End all contact with people who have negatively affected our marriage, women and male friends thatdo not have the best interests of our marriage as a priority.
5 - No more nights apart or going out without each other
6 - Give me access to any banking/financial accounts.
7 - No more opposite sex friendships, unless family members.
In the future:
1 - Protect me and my feelings above all else.
2 - Never participate in any one-on-one meetings with anyone of the opposite sex.
3 - Never discuss my personal marriage issues with anyone of the opposite sex.
4 - Never go to bars, clubs, strip joints, or any such establishment without me.
5 - Be open and honest with me at all times about the past and present.
6 - Avoid all chat rooms, porn, dating sites, craigslist, etc.
7 - Trade phones with me at any time I request, NO questions asked.
8 - Leave my phone accessible to me at night/or anytime you're home.
9 - Commit to at least 15 hours of undivided attention with me to meet each other�s needs each week.
10 - If a woman from the past finds a way to make contact, immediately end the contact and notify me about it immediately after.
I would also add that FB and all social networking sites need to go. They'll always hang over you like a cloud.
I'm attempting to only ask for things that I would be willing to do myself. Facebook is the only way I stay in contact with distant family and old friends. I've already begun deleting people who don't fall into those categories. And he knows he's expected to do the same.
A condition of his returning home has to be that he gets in and stays in a 12 step program.
I don't know if it's like this everywhere, but our state requires anyone charged with a second DUI to go to AA meetings. Usually that's on top of more intensive group therapy as well.
Honestly, I don't think it'll change much. Alcohol really isn't the problem. He can go with out it. He can have one or two and stop. His issue is that he thinks he's both invincible and entitled to do whatever he pleases. In every aspect of his life - be it alcohol, other women, his job, not even having to pay tolls on toll roads. I don't see how AA will make much of a difference, but he will be going because it's that or jail time.
.[/quote]
I'm attempting to only ask for things that I would be willing to do myself. Facebook is the only way I stay in contact with distant family and old friends. I've already begun deleting people who don't fall into those categories. And he knows he's expected to do the same. [/quote]
But you are not a serial cheat with an established addiction for the attention of others.
These sites will trigger his old behaviour patterns. Like a gambling addict going to the track.
If it's too much for him to commit to - he'd rather have access to stupid websites than have his marriage - it's a clear sign to you he is not serious. You need these clear signs to either build trust on or to stay away.
You can always have a couple's facebook page with both your names on.
I think his addiction is really deep rooted and you need EPs suitable for a serial cheat and alcohol problem, such as a polygraph, A postnup promising you everything should you divorce him for adultery in the future,
I am not sure what commitment you need from him regarding he join a 12 step program towards getting sober, there are other vets who know more about that.....
[quote=JenniferIsLost][quote=indiegirl]I would also add that FB and all social networking sites need to go. They'll always hang over you like a cloud
Do you have any suspicions that he is using anything else besides alcohol?
Not at all. He's never had any interest in drugs. Well before I had our oldest, we smoked marijuana together once. That was the first and only time he's used anything since he was 18. Even when I went through an extremely unproud period when I recreationally took cocaine, he wouldn't try it.
I can't say for certain what he's done since I kicked him out, but I really can't see him taking any drugs.
I know he does take some sort of muscle building supplement. Fancies himself a soon to be famous cage fighter. I know it's legal and is bought in those nutritional shops. Something like a legal version of steroids from what I could find online, but you drink it.
You can always have a couple's facebook page with both your names on.
I think a couple's Facebook page would be something I would be comfortable with. I use Facebook in the way it was intended (at least as far as I'm concerned) and the only reason I hesitate to make him give it up completely is because I want both of us to keep ties to family and old friends that are actually good for our marriage. A couple's page would block out any possibility of his using it for any other reason unbeknownst to me.
I think his addiction is really deep rooted and you need EPs suitable for a serial cheat and alcohol problem, such as a polygraph, A postnup promising you everything should you divorce him for adultery in the future
I'm still very uncomfortable with the thought of a poly, even though he has agreed to it if I require it. I'm barely hanging on knowing what I know, I have absolutely no desire to know any more. I really don't think my shaky mental stability could handle that, at least not in the near (while still pregnant) future.
A postnup sounds wonderful, if we had anything at all. We own nothing. We have no savings, no assets, nothing I could take, or he would fear to lose.
I'm still very uncomfortable with the thought of a poly, even though he has agreed to it if I require it. I'm barely hanging on knowing what I know, I have absolutely no desire to know any more.
You need the big picture facts in order to shape up a proper recovery plan. If you know the conditions which led to each A, you can eliminate each condition. It will also flush out any remaining foxes in the hen house - you dont want to find out x months down the line, someone trusted or hidden is actually an unknown OW. A poly wont give details, it will just show you whether or not he has come clean on the big picture, and if he has come clean on everything this should reassure you there are no reminaing skeletons waiting to jump out.
I would also add that FB and all social networking sites need to go. They'll always hang over you like a cloud.
I'm attempting to only ask for things that I would be willing to do myself. Facebook is the only way I stay in contact with distant family and old friends. I've already begun deleting people who don't fall into those categories. And he knows he's expected to do the same.
Then what about having a joint Facebook?
If you know the conditions which led to each A, you can eliminate each condition. It will also flush out any remaining foxes in the hen house - you dont want to find out x months down the line, someone trusted or hidden is actually an unknown OW. A poly wont give details, it will just show you whether or not he has come clean on the big picture, and if he has come clean on everything this should reassure you there are no reminaing skeletons waiting to jump out.
My snooping has uncovered how the affairs started. How he met, or got in contact with, each of them. Which is why I know I need complete transparency when it comes to Facebook and the cell phone, as well as no going out to bars without me and no longer being friends with certain guys who've proven they aren't at all concerned with my marriage.
He hasn't come clean. He isn't going to come clean. He has this idea that we are going to start fresh and basically sweep everything under the rug. It's a tempting idea, but I know what I know. I don't need to know anymore, but I do need him to acknowledge the things I know as opposed to lie about them.
Which he isn't going to do. He'll lie until he dies. Blame me for the end of our marriage because I refused to listen to his "truth." And that's that. Nothing I can do or say is going to change that. And in the end, the poly will never happen because he won't go through with it, no matter what he says. Our marriage isn't worth fixing to him if he has to truly admit what he's done.
I'm attempting to only ask for things that I would be willing to do myself. Facebook is the only way I stay in contact with distant family and old friends. I've already begun deleting people who don't fall into those categories. And he knows he's expected to do the same.
Hi JIL,
In recovery I went into my H's FB page, since I have the password of course, and deleted people that I felt were not appropriate or necessary. He was 100% on board with me doing that. Almost all women short from family went, especially women I didn't know (usually old HS or college friends). Just a suggestion. If he is committed to recovery he should not have a problem with you doing that.
That all being said my H has never been secretive about FB, he rarely even uses it, and he has to my knowledge never had any inappropriate contact using it. If any of those things were the case I would probably require him to close it down.
Jennifer, I am glad that you were quiet because of no internet. We get worried around here when someone is quiet, because it usually means that they decided to do their own thing, and not follow MB.
You handled your WH great. Next time he ambushes you, you say, "Are you willing to do everything I ask and need from you?" If he says anything other than "Yes.", you say, "Contact the IM when you are ready." And you walk away.
You already know that he is balking at your requirements, so let him figure out what he is gonna do.
You left of NCL to OW's. I really think you should include NCL's and NC for LIFE with OWs.
Also, look at him giving up FB as JC. It shouldn't be anymore difficult than not going out without you. It is extremely dangerous for your WH to continue to be on FB.
You do have something he will care about losing should you divorce. Your children. Have him sign a post nup that states that he will give you full custody of your children, with child support, and spousal support. This of course would only be told to him if he were to agree to your EP's.
You did AMAZING while you didn't have access to MB. Now get dark.
Oh, and the next time he shows up at your home, phone the police. It will only take him once(or twice if he's really thick) to get the hint that he needs to stay away.
And about the DUI. People who don't have a problem with drinking don't get DUI's, let alone more than one. He has a problem drinking.
I think I quit. All this talk about EPs and the things I would require for reconciliation just sort of drives the point home - that he's not going to change and that he's going to keep pushing back - never remorseful and never willing to take responsibility for his actions and do the things necessary to make me feel more secure.
I really just don't want to drag this out anymore. Plan B isn't effective because nothing will stop him from just showing up somewhere, be it my home or anywhere else he knows I'll be. I know now that he's never going to care what I need and I can't focus on me and the kids if I'm always worrying about him popping up and catching me off guard.
I need to personally recover and I don't think I'll ever be able to do that while reconciliation is still on the table - in contact or not. I'm going to ask, beg, plead, whatever it takes to get my parents to cover any lawyer fees I incur and file for divorce while hoping they'll be able to just charge my WH.
It's sad, because I truly believe in MB. Because of it, I know I did everything I could. Plan A worked as much as it could have and I know that because that's the girl my WH remembered and wanted to return to. Plan B showed me I could survive without my WH and be better off. It may not have changed him, but it at least gave me the strength to say no more. The problem is that reconciliation was never an option because our problems (being his cheating and lying) go back to day one of our relationship. I just didn't know it at the time. I was desperate to find a fix because I couldn't make it without him, and I know now that I don't need him and that there can't be a fix for someone who was never the guy he claimed to be.
I still recommend you stay in Plan B if you decide to go on with divorce. It's for your safety of mind and staying away from the drama.
I need to personally recover and I don't think I'll ever be able to do that while reconciliation is still on the table - in contact or not.
Not true. In Plan B, you will still have Personal recovery, and the longer you are in PB, the more emotionally ready you will be for a D. Divorce isn't easy on you. Get yourself heald enough to deal with it.
You are pretty new into PB. Give it a chance to do its thing. You can still file for a D in a few months.
Stick with the plans. Tomorrow(or even a few hours from now), you could be missing your WH so badly that you would consider loosening your EP's. Just post on here, and we'll give you that encouragement and direction you need.
I have to figure out some way to know if he's at my door before I answer it, but otherwise, he has no way to get in contact with me.
And put a peephole in your door if you cannot otherwise tell who is there.
All you need is a drill, a bit and about five minutes. Ask a neighbor to help you out if need be.
Next time he ambushes you, you say, "Are you willing to do everything I ask and need from you?"
That's exactly what I said this time. And he said yes. And then, not so much.
You left of NCL to OW's. I really think you should include NCL's and NC for LIFE with OWs.
Those were left off the list because I've already stated many, many times that he wasn't to attempt reconciliation until that was already agreed upon. Being that he went right over to OW1's house after swearing no contact and begging for the chance to do what I require tells me pretty much all I need to know. He's never going to give them up. Only continue to lie about it.
Also, look at him giving up FB as JC. It shouldn't be anymore difficult than not going out without you. It is extremely dangerous for your WH to continue to be on FB.
While I totally agree with you, he won't do it. Making any talk of reconciliation pointless.
Oh, and the next time he shows up at your home, phone the police. It will only take him once(or twice if he's really thick) to get the hint that he needs to stay away.
And tell them what? That my husband who I'm not even legally separated from (since that doesn't exist in my state) is at the house he still technically lives in? That he has not touched me or abused me in any way? And that I want him removed immediately although I have no legal grounds for it? I don't see that working in my favor at all. That's looking way more sarcastic than I mean it to. I just honestly don't see how that could not blow up in my face.
And about the DUI. People who don't have a problem with drinking don't get DUI's, let alone more than one. He has a problem drinking.
I really wish that were true. Alcohol addiction is something I could understand and deal with. I've been through it with family. This is stupidity and entitlement. A complete lack of fear. Having absolutely no concern for himself or how his actions effect others. Removing the alcohol won't change that.
Oh, and the next time he shows up at your home, phone the police. It will only take him once(or twice if he's really thick) to get the hint that he needs to stay away.
And tell them what? That my husband who I'm not even legally separated from (since that doesn't exist in my state) is at the house he still technically lives in? That he has not touched me or abused me in any way? And that I want him removed immediately although I have no legal grounds for it? I don't see that working in my favor at all. That's looking way more sarcastic than I mean it to. I just honestly don't see how that could not blow up in my face.
You tell them that you are alone with your kids, are pregnant and not feeling well at all and that your estranged husband, who left you and the kids for another woman, is yelling and banging on your door and that you are scared for your safety. That you would really appreciate them sending someone out because this is scaring the children.
No need to get into a long dissertation with them, and no need to lie, either, but the above should be sufficient.
Jennifer, what is your plan here exactly?
Have you read other people's threads? Do you know what PB looks like? You will see that your feelings will have you going back and forth, not quite sure what it is that you want.
You don't have to have those EPs and requirements for things that your WH WILL do, you need to have them for what YOU WILL NEED. It isn't about him anymore.
Everyday, when I wake up, I deal with what is in front of me. My WH isn't attempting recovery, so that isn't on the table, for today. Today, I get through making the best life I can for myself and my boys. Does that mean that tomorrow I might not have to deal with possible recovery? Nope, just not today.
Tomorrow(or even a few hours from now), you could be missing your WH so badly that you would consider loosening your EP's. Just post on here, and we'll give you that encouragement and direction you need.
I've already been going thorough that on and off all day. That little voice in the back of my head telling me to take what he's offered because at least it's better than what he's given in the past and that I know he won't do what all I ask anyway, so waiting is dumb.
I don't want to do that. I'm almost positive I can keep myself from contacting him and taking what's he's offered, but that tiny bit of doubt I have in myself is enough to make me want to just go for the divorce instead.
And put a peephole in your door if you cannot otherwise tell who is there.
A great idea - if I owned this place. Drilling a hole in the front door would not go over well and best case scenario, probably cost me the price of a new door.
And put a peephole in your door if you cannot otherwise tell who is there.
A great idea - if I owned this place. Drilling a hole in the front door would not go over well and best case scenario, probably cost me the price of a new door.
It wouldn't hurt to ask the landlord, though.
You tell them that you are alone with your kids, are pregnant and not feeling well at all and that your estranged husband, who left you and the kids for another woman, is yelling and banging on your door and that you are scared for your safety. That you would really appreciate them sending someone out because this is scaring the children.
He comes while the children are at school. He doesn't bang on the door or yell. He comes like a poor abused puppy begging for love. I doubt the police will believe I fear for anyone's safety.
Jen,
Just a question, you say your DD's are in school during the day. Do you mean daycare? Aren't they 4 and 2? Why don't you cut that out/back and save the money for your phone and food, etc.?
ba
Jennifer, what is your plan here exactly?
Have you read other people's threads? Do you know what PB looks like? You will see that your feelings will have you going back and forth, not quite sure what it is that you want.
You don't have to have those EPs and requirements for things that your WH WILL do, you need to have them for what YOU WILL NEED. It isn't about him anymore.
My plan is to get the divorce.
I've been reading other people's threads since well before I posted my own story. That's why I posted and why I know that MB works for people. Unfortunately, I haven't seen it work towards reconciliation for people with unremorseful serial cheating WHs.
I know a lot of people have come out of Plan B with a wonderful personal recoveries, but that's months or years down the line and they still aren't divorced and still in Plan B because they're open to marriage recovery one day. I don't want to be open to marriage recovery next month, never mind next year. I don't want to have him come back all remorseful 6 months from now thinking he can be with us now that he's gotten his cheating binge out of his system. I just don't see the point of trying for personal recovery when months from now he can just pop back into my life and muck up whatever progress I've made.
Plan B is about him, because it gives him a way back. For this to be about me, I need to shut the door completely. Get the divorce, be done with him, and finally be able to focus on a life without him.
It wouldn't hurt to ask the landlord, though.
That I can, and will, do.
Just a question, you say your DD's are in school during the day. Do you mean daycare? Aren't they 4 and 2? Why don't you cut that out/back and save the money for your phone and food, etc.?
They only just went back after I kicked my WH out. I don't have any babysitters during the day, so they go 3 days a week now just so I can get to my various doctor's appointments and other things I can't get done with them in tow. My 4 year old goes to kindergarten in September and most kids in the area that haven't gone to preschool end up having to stay back and do that year twice.
It's also their summer camp/swimming lessons/etc. that I would rather not take away from them if I don't absolutely have to. And I'm scheduling my c-section around their school days because I have no one to watch them during the day while I'm at the hospital.
I'm also supposed to be taking classes this summer, if I ever get tax money to pay for them.
All I'm hearing form you Jen is concentration on what HE thinks.
"He's never going to do it... He's never going to change...hell never agree to that...."
So what?
Two huge problems with this point of view.
A) You have no idea what an addict will or will not do in the future. Sometimes, over time, living in the gutter makes you wise up. While addicted, no he will never agree to those EPs. That is the whole POINT of those EPs. His refusal ensures your IM keeps him away from you. So what if he refuses them? So what if he remains an addict? That's part of your plan. Your plan covers that eventuality. You will heal with or without him - away from the drama.
B) What does his opinion of what YOU need have to do with you stating for the record what YOU need? His opinion is neither here nor there. They are YOUR boundaries and they explain to the addict that he cannot keep barging into your home and your world while he refuses to do what YOU need. Please keep your focus on YOU. And call the cops if he harasses you at home.
I've already been going thorough that on and off all day. That little voice in the back of my head telling me to take what he's offered because at least it's better than what he's given in the past and that I know he won't do what all I ask anyway, so waiting is dumb.
We've all felt this way. He's your husband. You have a lovebank for him and that isn't going away over night.
I've filed for a D. Trust me, it is not a magic button that will make you speed through withdrawal and suddenly feel decided, strong and sure.
The only way to get through withdrawal and freeze your lovebank is to keep up No Contact. Over time you stop feeling this way. Your bar for recovery gets higher. And in no contact he can't manipulate you into settling for crumbs.
Divorce if you want to, but keeping contact will hurt your health and its worrying.
Let your IM deal with his nonsense
I think I quit. All this talk about EPs and the things I would require for reconciliation just sort of drives the point home - that he's not going to change and that he's going to keep pushing back - never remorseful and never willing to take responsibility for his actions and do the things necessary to make me feel more secure.
I really just don't want to drag this out anymore. Plan B isn't effective because nothing will stop him from just showing up somewhere, be it my home or anywhere else he knows I'll be. I know now that he's never going to care what I need and I can't focus on me and the kids if I'm always worrying about him popping up and catching me off guard.
I need to personally recover and I don't think I'll ever be able to do that while reconciliation is still on the table - in contact or not. I'm going to ask, beg, plead, whatever it takes to get my parents to cover any lawyer fees I incur and file for divorce while hoping they'll be able to just charge my WH.
It's sad, because I truly believe in MB. Because of it, I know I did everything I could. Plan A worked as much as it could have and I know that because that's the girl my WH remembered and wanted to return to. Plan B showed me I could survive without my WH and be better off. It may not have changed him, but it at least gave me the strength to say no more. The problem is that reconciliation was never an option because our problems (being his cheating and lying) go back to day one of our relationship. I just didn't know it at the time. I was desperate to find a fix because I couldn't make it without him, and I know now that I don't need him and that there can't be a fix for someone who was never the guy he claimed to be.
jenn, i am really worried about you. you sound very, very depressed. refresh my memory: are you able to take ADs while pregnant?
do get your to-do list going, with contacting landlord for peephole at the very top. i don't see any landlord refusing, and you don't even need to give a reason! though if you feel you must, just stating that as a woman living alone with small children, and pregnant, you need to have one. period. remember, taking even the smallest of actions gives you a feeling of control over your life.
thinking of you,
(((JIL)))
Hi Jennifer,
I really feel for you, and where you are now. I think I posted it earlier, but my first husband left me for a mistress when I was pregnant with DD2. It was excruciating. After he moved out of the place we had together, I ended up moving 1000 miles away back home with my mom, which in and of itself was difficult because of her issues, but it allowed me to enter a plan B of sorts (long before I knew of MB). I stopped having contact with him, if he called to talk to our dd, I avoided the phone, etc. I will have to say, that the time I was doing my own version of "plan A" living nearby him while he was actively engaged in an affair was sooooooo much worse than when I moved away and got my mental distance. This is what plan B lets you do, concentrate on YOU. Not him and what he'll do...you've put out your list of conditions and even if he was willing to agree to all of them, you would still have your right to reject that offer. But it lets you have peace to start concentrating on you.
So, Jennifer, what did you do today to take care of yourself? And what are you planning tomorrow to take care of yourself?
(just as an aside, one thing I've been doing for myself the last couple of months, is buying flowers to put on the table. I figure no one else is going to buy be flowers, and they really are lovely, and every time I look at them, I know I am loving myself. The kids love it too and I think it is good for them to see that it doesn't take someone else to give you permission to do things you enjoy and that make you happy...you can do that regardless of what anyone else is doing.)
Peace...
(just as an aside, one thing I've been doing for myself the last couple of months, is buying flowers to put on the table. I figure no one else is going to buy be flowers, and they really are lovely, and every time I look at them, I know I am loving myself. The kids love it too and I think it is good for them to see that it doesn't take someone else to give you permission to do things you enjoy and that make you happy...you can do that regardless of what anyone else is doing.)
Peace...
Some fantastic Plan B ideas.
I did the flowers thing too!
Great minds....
Hey JiL, hope things are going well for you! Please give us an update when you get a chance, we're here to help support and encourage you through these very difficult times.
Not much to update. I continue to take my Prozac and think. The break in Plan B had more of an effect than I originally realized, because while I've been sleeping and eating better, I still managed to lose another 2 pounds (plus that one I gained). I can't even see how that's possible with all the junk I've been eating, but who knows anymore.
I'm still pretty much in the get the divorce and be done with it camp. I've accepted that I don't need him. I've accepted that he won't change. I know whether he changes or not isn't my concern (I do hear you guys, really) but it's hard not to think about just the same.
The only time I waiver from divorce full steam ahead, is when my 3 year old has another one of her hysterical "I want dada" fits. Like just a few minutes ago. At those times, I seriously consider just taking him back. Not as a crazy, it'll be better this time, scenario. Of course, it wouldn't. But he'd be here and my kids wouldn't be so hurt. The 4 year old mostly gets it, but the 3 year old just can't process what's going on at all.
When things were bad before I kicked him out, I seriously considered sticking it out and waiting until the youngest was like 6 and then just divorcing him. Not that it's ever easy on kids of any age, but she'd understand a little more and I could work without full time day care. Of course, with a baby on the way, that adds another 6 years of unhappy marriage for slightly happier children and a bit more help in raising them. Not exactly the best trade off.
It's not a serious consideration. I could never stick it out that long and I'd end up right back here - him kicked out again and the situation the same.
So, yeah, as an update - my mind is not a clear sane space at the moment - but I remain in a holding pattern for the time being, taking my pills and trying to make my kids a little more comfortable with the current situation.
Jen, you just need to stay dark, keep your focus on you.
Just keep putting one foot in front of the other and eventually you will walk through the pain.
You hurt because of the wounds from your marriage and the break in Plan B. If you refuse contact, if you refuse to take any more wounds from your attacker, the old ones will heal.
Spent all day yesterday dying - my 3rd stomach flu of this pregnancy. I'm beginning to think all these vitamins they make you take do absolutely nothing to boost the immune system.
My weight took a huge hit (a loss of 6 more pounds) with the not being able to keep anything down for over 24 hours, but hopefully that was just water weight that I'll gain back quickly now that I feel a little better. Managed to eat a little soup last night, so it looks like I'm on the mend.
Seeing the specialist for another ultrasound today, to double check on heart development. Not too concerned as I've yet to have a baby that will stay in the proper position long enough to get the views on the first try. And yay, more 3d pictures.
Yesterday I was too sick to be angry. More like occasionally sad that I yet again have to struggle through illness while pregnant with 2 small children at home with no help from the one person who should actually have to be here helping.
Now I feel better and the anger is there. Remembering more of the gibberish he tried feeding me during the Plan B break. About how he wouldn't do the list and I should just "date" him for 4 weeks instead and then all the excitement and anticipation would come back and he would move back home. Other clear stupidity. I think the rainy weather has me extra ornery.
I don't have any thing to give except
((((hugs)))))
Hang in there. You are doing a great job keeping it together for your little ones. I know it's easy to be bitter with ur WH but try to keep your focus on them. They need you!
Take care of yourself!
Jen, you are so strong. Entering Plan B, putting one foot in front of the other, looking after your children and your unborn baby, tending to yourself whilst sick.
Be proud of yourself and the actions you are taking in the face of adversity. And be kind to yourself.
I also think you have all the reasons under the sun to be angry with WH. Rant all you want. Let it out. Anger is a stage of grief.
Just wanted you to know you are sure to be inspiring others.
My poor children. They are stuck in the middle of this no matter how much I try to keep things normal for them.
I knew WH wouldn't come for his visitation yesterday or tomorrow. During Plan B break, he told me of his new work schedule and asked if he could, instead of picking them up at school since he wouldn't make it in time, come by here around 6pm those nights. Get the kids into bed and then hang out with me. I said no, of course, so therefore, he wasn't going to see them until this Friday for his weekend.
Just got an email from our IM. He wants to know if he can pick them up about 45 minutes late. The IM reiterated what I already know - that he's forfeited his right to my being flexible and if he can't make it, he misses the visit - but it's ultimately up to me. In my heart, I want to say just that. This is the situation he himself created.
But then my 4 year old wakes up and the first this she asks for is dada hug. My 3 year old doesn't want to go to preschool anymore and they have to forceably remove her from my person so I can leave. And I waiver, because I could make it so they could see him - by lowering myself to dealing with his crap. I shouldn't and won't, really, but it's hard not to take the blame onto myself even when I know where it truly lies.
And worse, I feel selfish for wanting the weekend to myself. Just a tiny break from the non-stop cries for dada. I made plans to have lunch with an old college friend who's visiting. I planned on driving up to my best friend's house to hang out with a bunch of friends from high school. To reconnect with some of the important people in my life that I lost sight of when dealing with the day to day drama that was WH infidelity. I can, and will, alter my plans to include the kids while still getting to do these things, but I feel bad about myself that I feel disappointed that I have to. If that makes sense.
I guess I'm not asking anything here. I know I have to tell him it's not going to happen. That he yet again lost his chance to see the kids. Maybe next Tuesday if he manages to make it. There is no guarantee he'll learn anything at all, but he definitely won't learn anything if I keep making this easier on him.
I totally understand wher you are coming from. During my plan B, I felt like the bad guy because the kids wanted to see Daddy and talk to Daddy and had a lot of anger towards me because I am the one who moved them from their home, I'm the one who wouldn't talk to Daddy, I'm the one who hid in the bedroom when he showed up at the house, and I'm the one who would call the cops when he did. My little ones are 7 and 5 and didn't understand why it hurt me so much to see him. I can also understand needing a break from your kids. Don't feel guilty about that! (I know, easier said then done!) But I tell my kids that even mommies need a time-out. Perhaps you can ask these old friends of yours for a little help with the kids?
Soon your WH will realize that you mean business. Next time he won't be late or whatever his excuse is.
Your doing great Jen! Keep it up!
And worse, I feel selfish for wanting the weekend to myself. Just a tiny break from the non-stop cries for dada.
Understood completely. Being in parent mode 100% can wear you down fast. Instead of feeling guilty, remember that you
and the kids would benefit from you getting time to recharge.
As RQ suggested, see if you can find some people to help out sometimes. Maybe those with children of similar ages would let you drop yours off for a few hours while you did nothing for a while.
Jennifer,
Hang in there! Sometimes when things are as overwhelming as they are for you right now, just think of getting through the day, let tomorrow be tomorrow's worry. Has your tummy settled down yet? Any ginger ale, sometimes that helps me, or emetrol the anti-nausea medicine, if it's okay while pregnant.
Are there any other people that can help you with the kids, family nearby or anything? Are you part of a church or any other community groups?
I know how hard it is to leave a crying child at school, my own little fellow does that off and on, and it just breaks my heart.
So, what are you doing tonight to make yourself feel extra good and loved? Bubble bath? Paper plates so less dishes? Calling up a friend in the evening? Reading a good book? Watching a funny TV show? Make sure you are nurturing yourself!
Thinking about you...
Thanks everyone. I'm completely better, stomach-wise.
I don't have many people I'm close to, or would feel comfortable asking to take my kids for a while, except for my parents. And I'm not part of any community groups. Only recently realizing how isolated I made myself once my marriage started having trouble.
The kids were very good about school today - no crying or hanging onto to me. 3 year old firmly stated she did not want to go to school, but was willing to stay without an argument once we got there. It's progress.
After the kids went to bed last night, I decided to make myself some brownies. I'd say they came out terrible, but the truth is nothing tastes right anymore. Yet another weird pregnancy thing. They're chocolate and nontoxic, so the children will love them tonight regardless.
Had trouble sleeping last night. Mind kept wandering back to WH and the what and whys of it all. I was very good about pushing those thoughts out of my head and concentrated instead on trying to come up with a new baby name while I was lying in bed not sleeping. He tainted the one we chose together and I feel it will always be a reminder of this time. I think I may have come up with something, but will continue to work on it when those obsessive thoughts take over my head.
I felt a little bad about coming up with a new baby name that he didn't have any say in, but then I realized - it's his own fault he's not here to have the discussion with me. He could have been if we were actually important to him. So, his loss.
Do WS have some sort of radar that tells them when their BS are dealing better?
Silence for days. No attempted breaks in no contact. And I'm doing good. Eating. Taking care of the kids. The house. Even the laundry has been getting put away as soon as it's out of the dryer. That's like unheard of. Plus, finally not feeling effected by WH absence every moment.
Just like last week. Everything going through the IM. At that point where Plan Bing for the long haul seems possible.
This time the phone rings. The house phone. The one that's never ever used, except for right at this moment because of my lack of cell phone. Yay for caller ID - I don't answer and no message. Just the one call, thus far. But it's like he's in my head now.
And I was actually pretty tempted to answer it. Had to stop myself when I realized what I was about to do. No good would come of that. Just need to keep reminding myself that it isn't my husband trying to contact me, just the demon who now wears his face.
Jen,
I know you have no cell right now but can you change that home number?
See him just trying to contact you has you spinning again. This is exactly why the cracks in Plan B are so hurtful to you.
Waywards do not have any kind of radar. They just want their cake and eat it too.
If he truly wants to contact you and work on your M he would follow the path you gave him in your Plan B letter.
What are you doing for you? What is in your plan for you TODAY?
What are you fount gor
Do WS have some sort of radar that tells them when their BS are dealing better?
Nope. They have no logic, no plan, they just rage and rain on your Plan B shelter like a storm. If there's any cracks in the roof, a bit of storm will get in.
Change your number.
Whenever the storm interrupts your perfect peace, as he did with calling the number. Think gratefully that it was not too bad, it did not spill into full contact and it shows you where the crack in your roof is. Easy to fix.
The landline is a crack. Tools out and fix it.
I didn't change my previously unused landline number either straight away. Got a text to the line from WH number when I was having a low day. I still don't know how I had the stregnth to hang up without listening. Thank god I did though.
We BSs are HALF the WSs addiction. There isn't any route they won't try.
I am racking my brain and I have no idea what you meant to say!
I am racking my brain and I have no idea what you meant to say!
Dang kindle!!!! Can't even go back and edit. I tried and see what I did.
Thanks everyone. I'm completely better, stomach-wise.
I don't have many people I'm close to, or would feel comfortable asking to take my kids for a while, except for my parents. And I'm not part of any community groups. Only recently realizing how isolated I made myself once my marriage started having trouble.
The kids were very good about school today - no crying or hanging onto to me. 3 year old firmly stated she did not want to go to school, but was willing to stay without an argument once we got there. It's progress.
After the kids went to bed last night, I decided to make myself some brownies. I'd say they came out terrible, but the truth is nothing tastes right anymore. Yet another weird pregnancy thing. They're chocolate and nontoxic, so the children will love them tonight regardless.
Had trouble sleeping last night. Mind kept wandering back to WH and the what and whys of it all. I was very good about pushing those thoughts out of my head and concentrated instead on trying to come up with a new baby name while I was lying in bed not sleeping. He tainted the one we chose together and I feel it will always be a reminder of this time. I think I may have come up with something, but will continue to work on it when those obsessive thoughts take over my head.
I felt a little bad about coming up with a new baby name that he didn't have any say in, but then I realized - it's his own fault he's not here to have the discussion with me. He could have been if we were actually important to him. So, his loss.
Jennifer, sounds great, a good day with the kids and you taking care of yourself! So, let me share my best brownie recipe, we call it "Grandma's brownies" because she gave it to us, and my sister and I used to make these a lot as a kid. Recommend eaten fresh out of the oven with heaps of vanilla ice cream.
1 stick butter, melted
1 cup sugar
1 t. vanilla
1/3 c. cocoa powder
2 eggs
1/4 t. salt
1/4 t. baking powder
1/2 c. flour (adding a little more makes them a tad less gooey, if you like)
chopped walnuts if desired
9 inch square pan, Bake at 350 for 20-25 minutes (resist overbaking!)
About the baby name...I remember being there with my ex while I was pregnant with DD2. Luckily I had my sister living nearby and we were pretty close at the time, so she and I talked pretty extensively about baby names. I ended up choosing a name that just sung out to me. Then I gave ex a list of middle names that he could choose from. It was a short list.
Seeing as he was a thousand miles away, there wasn't any darn thing he could do about it. Feel free to reach out to people you care about and trust, but pick what feels absolutely right for you...you will remember this experience forever, of nurturing your baby on your own, and it is so important for you to own the experience. Do you have help for the birth? I had a doula for mine and she was awesome, also had a homebirth so my midwife was great. It really made a huge difference to have supportive people around. The doula was money very well spent. And you might find a doula-in-training who will volunteer for free if that would be helpful. Also, you can have a doula with you no matter what birth experience you're having, from home birth to planned c-section, and they are great people to run interference on pesky relatives that might disrupt your peaceful birthing.
Have a great day, Jennifer, it all will get better, and just take it one day at a time!
And yes, change your home phone number!! (and make sure the company doesn't put a "the number you have dialed has changed, the new number is..." message. Plan B is for YOU, and with everything on your plate right now, you need the peace of mind. You deserve it.
What are you doing for you? What is in your plan for you TODAY?
Yesterday, I didn't really have a plan for me. Without thinking about it, I had done everything that needed to be done. I guess what I did for me was at the end of the day, I had some uninterrupted TV time and then went to bed early. Seemed like such a good plan - something I needed. Sort of proved otherwise though, since I had nightmares.
I ended up choosing a name that just sung out to me. Then I gave ex a list of middle names that he could choose from. It was a short list.
That's exactly what I did to chose this baby's name originally. But then he sort of ruined the first name for me. I picked a new first name, but now the middle name he chose from the short list doesn't work with it (first, middle and last names all ending in A seems strange to me). So it's still a work in progress.
What are you doing for you? What is in your plan for you TODAY?
Yesterday, I didn't really have a plan for me. Without thinking about it, I had done everything that needed to be done. I guess what I did for me was at the end of the day, I had some uninterrupted TV time and then went to bed early. Seemed like such a good plan - something I needed. Sort of proved otherwise though, since I had nightmares.
Dang those nightmares. Dr. Harley talked to a woman on the radio show about her nightmares and suggested sleep aide, but with you being pregnant ask your doctor first.
So like the Queen's in Plan B get some nail polish and color away or go and get a pedicure or manicure.
So I had nightmares last night involving WH. Bad ones. Ones that left me awake and pretty much paralyzed in bed, unable to shake the feelings.
On the bright side, they weren't the type that give me any inclination to contact him, perhaps ever. On the not so bright side, they make me want to curl into the fetal position and never leave my bed again. I'm up and around now, but still can't seem to get them out of my mind.
So real. Convoluted. But real. Traumatic. More than I've ever felt in dreams. Even woke up with that feeling you get when you snoop and find the worst possible thing (shock, rage, etc.)
I took the kids out for donuts, just because I had to get up and do something. The traumatized feeling just isn't going away.
Dr. Harley talked to a woman on the radio show about her nightmares and suggested sleep aide, but with you being pregnant ask your doctor first.
Already have, and I can take almost any OTC sleeping aid. Unfortunately, they knock me out cold and my kids don't usually sleep well so I don't risk it.
The dreams are good, though they dont feel it.
Every successful Plan Ber I know went through those dreams and came out the other side. They are a key stage.
The ones where I beat OW's face into the cement were enjoyable. Sometimes, other ones would have me convinced that I would reach to the other side of the bed and find WH there. After more than 2 years in PB, I get dreams about WH rarely. It is part of the process, and definitely not a fun part. And I know that when I was pregnant, my dreams were more vivid and strange. I can only imagine what is happening to you now.
The ones where I beat OW's face into the cement were enjoyable.
I've had those. Except they were of me savagely beating WH in the face with a baseball bat. And I was always awake, like it was some sort of vision. The ADs have stopped them completely, so perhaps I was dangerously close to bordering on homicidal.
And I know that when I was pregnant, my dreams were more vivid and strange. I can only imagine what is happening to you now.
Pregnancy is once of the few times I dream and remember. And thinking back, they were always not great dreams to begin with.
It's just weird, because this nightmare was pretty specific, almost like a warning of my future if I allowed my WH in my life without real change on his part. It was less about cheating exactly, and focused more on the lies in general and how they would continue and muck up my life further. His friends were there, many of them, playing different parts, all pretty accurately. Sort of cementing my resolve that those friends are part of the problem and need to be removed from our lives if we are to have a life together.
The more I think about it, the dream gets less traumatic and more educational. Like my subconscious trying to tell me exactly why I need to be doing what I'm doing now. It's very A Christmas Carol - if things don't change, this is your future.
Absolutely. One of the dreams I remember from my beginnings of Plan B, had WH come to my home. We were out in his car(apparently I wasn't letting him inside). We started kissing, and then I stopped and said, "I'm not supposed to be doing this. You haven't ended the affair yet." Then I woke up. You're processing all of the events and changes in your life. Completely NORMAL. Not easy, but normal.
Today was completely useless where nothing was accomplished at all.
My morning was messed up by my reaction to the nightmare last night.
The afternoon was sort of sucked up by needing to restrain myself from breaking no contact. I had the insane need to tell him how much he sucks. Manage to avoid acting on that impulse.
Early evening had me on edge, worrying that he was going to show up for the weekend visitation late even though I told him through the IM not to come if he couldn't be on time.
And from then until now, I've reverted back to angry that he can't bother to change his life to at least see the kids. Or give me the money he didn't bother dropping off. I cancelled lunch tomorrow with my college friend. Changed the RSVP for the party with my other friend to include the kids. And wondered how anyone could blow off their kids for something else, no matter what it was.
It's safe to say I did nothing for me at all today. I let him into my head all day. Without his having to do anything at all. Not a good day.
Jennifer, sorry to hear that. It is just a setback, though, and right now it seems particularly hard because even though you are planning things for both eventualities, you still are taking him into account in your plans. Is this the second weekend in a row that he failed to get the kids? If so, maybe something stricter with your IM would be helpful. For instance, he needs to confirm 48 hours in advance of the weekend pick up if he plans to do it. That way, it won't hang over your head until the very last minute.
Have you tried journaling or writing what you're thinking? It might help you process every thing. I know I've typed up more than a few rants over the years, and it always really helps me get things out of my head. Journalling helps too. Or write a letter to H about how much he sucks, then burn it (oooh, that could be fun!) It's okay to do things that involve thoughts of him if they make you feel better...like writing a letter to him. Just don't actually break no-contact and you'll be fine
Anyway, at least your weekend has some fun "for you" plans. Is there any sort of mom's day out group you could join, to get some extra support and community? Mother's of preschoolers perhaps? If you breastfeed, la leche league can be a wonderful resource and support network. Try to give yourself good, healthy chances to socialize, you'll have some of your ENs met and start filling up the holes left behind by your WH.
I had the insane need to tell him how much he sucks. Manage to avoid acting on that impulse.
I know you didn't mean it to sound funny, but that should be one of those "quotable quotes" or something.
I'd urge you to try to reschedule the lunch with the old friend--even if it's just bologna sandwiches on a budget. I'm sure she'd understand, and you could probably use a little adult conversation.
Oh, and make sure you write down all of the times that he does and does not keep to the visitation schedule.
Document when he does and does not give you money. Also keep track of what your money is spent on...all of this being for future reference in case he tries to raise a stink about finances or custody in court.
The nightmares can really mess with you. It can be hard to.shake. What i have to do is the same thing i have to do with my kids, distraction. Could be something simple, organize the pantry, color your nails, make some cookies etc.
Also can be challenging and also annoying when we allow them space in our head while in plan B. I tricked myself and play a stupid game. I imagine i open a little door in my brain and say "ok, it is time for you to go, bye" and i close the door. Silly, i end up giggling at myself. It usually works and then i distract myself with something else.
Is this the second weekend in a row that he failed to get the kids? If so, maybe something stricter with your IM would be helpful. For instance, he needs to confirm 48 hours in advance of the weekend pick up if he plans to do it. That way, it won't hang over your head until the very last minute.
Yes, this is the second weekend he was supposed to take the kids and didn't. After last time with no notification at all, my IM told him he had to give at least 24 hours notice if he wasn't coming. He asked is he could come late this time a couple days ago and was told no, on time or not at all. So I knew he wasn't coming late and pretty much figured that meant he wasn't coming at all.
Journalling helps too. Or write a letter to H about how much he sucks, then burn it (oooh, that could be fun!) It's okay to do things that involve thoughts of him if they make you feel better...like writing a letter to him. Just don't actually break no-contact and you'll be fine
I may try journalling. I actually thought a lot about it today. Maybe write a letter in the journal or something. Actually typing it up is dangerous for me because one split second impulse and I've sent it off. But with something handwritten, it's not like I could get it to him before I realized what a bad idea that would be.
Oh, and make sure you write down all of the times that he does and does not keep to the visitation schedule.
Document when he does and does not give you money. Also keep track of what your money is spent on...all of this being for future reference in case he tries to raise a stink about finances or custody in court.
I've been doing that since Plan B started. Visits, no shows, cancellations, money from him, money out, requests sent through IM and the break in Plan B when he showed up on my doorstep and what he said.
Journal writing is a VERY good idea.
he afternoon was sort of sucked up by needing to restrain myself from breaking no contact. I had the insane need to tell him how much he sucks. Manage to avoid acting on that impulse.
Don't diminish the greatness of this in the beginning of Plan B. Having the strength to not follow through with these impulses is HUGE. You ROCK. Although you may feel like it wasn't a good PB day, I would call it a GREAT one. One with NC early into the withdrawal phase is HUGE. GREAT JOB.
"ok, it is time for you to go, bye"
I did sort of the same thing with - I am done thinking about you now - and moving on to something else. It just was not working today. Kept popping back up with different emotions attached.
Having the strength to not follow through with these impulses is HUGE.
I had the strength solely because I refuse to break my own no contact.
Now if he were to come up to me on the street, I don't think there would be a force in the world that could stop me from telling him how much he sucks. Even though I know it's not like he would agree, or apologize or respond in any useful way.
I can only exert my control as far as not breaking my own no contact. Anything less opens to door to FR. I need him full of remorse, going through the IM by his own choice. Telling him how much he sucks won't facilitate that.
Besides, he has to already know how much I think he sucks. If he doesn't then it's doubtful that saying it now will make any difference.
But having no contact with the WS IS a GREAT PB day. Is a PB success. Especially at the beginning. Celebrate it. Even when you don't want to. There is going to come a time when you will focus more fully on not giving your WH one thought, but that takes a bit of time.
Now, you do have your standard response to say to him should he ambush you, right? As much as you would LOVE to say these types of things, you shouldn't give into those impulses.
Now, get some rest. You deserve it.
Now X3!
Keep hanging in there and give yourself a well-earned pat on the back Jen.
Thanks guys.
No nightmares last night, but I must have had a dream of sorts because I woke up thinking WH had 65 Facebook friends, all appropriate people. Took a few minutes to realize there was no way I could know that since we have no contact.
Hopefully will be too preoccupied today to dwell on WH. Getting me and the kids ready for the party, the 45 minute drive up there and then again back and a couple hours with old friends while our kids play together. It'll be past the kids bedtime when we get home, so hopefully it'll be a fun day or at least a diversion from my internal emotional stuff.
Enjoy the kiddos and day my friend.
The kids and I had a good time at the party. They ran around like crazy people, ate a bunch of food and got to play with someone else's toys. I got to have adult conversation and talk about baby stuff.
More interesting, I watched the married people. I saw the attentiveness of a man towards his pregnant wife. I saw how great this guy was with his little daughter, never once trying to pawn her off on someone else because he was trying to hang out with his coworkers. Neither of which is a sure indicator of a solid marriage, but both made me realize how much the kids and I had allowed ourselves to miss out on by taking the scraps.
My wonderful best friend offered to throw me a baby shower. Seeing how uncomfortable that made me, she offered to throw a smaller baby sprinkle or even a meet the baby party for after I had the baby. I was very close to tears. It's so easy to forget that there are people who care about you when your whole world is consumed by the betrayal.
More dreams, but nothing I clearly remember which is for the best. Just a snippet with my dad asking me if it mattered if WH went to jail instead of prison or vice versa. Strange.
I know! I don't have children, but I remember that feeling of the rose coloured glasses coming off.
Glad to see it happening to you!
Last night while trying to go to sleep, I kept on thinking that I have never gone so long without talking to WH. It was sad, but not an overwhelming end of the world feeling. It was ok.
Today is less ok. The impulse to contact him is strong. More need to tell him that he sucks and exactly why. That whether he wants to acknowledge it or not, he's choosing booze and his crappy friends over his pregnant wife and kids. That if we meant anything to him at all, he wouldn't even hesitate to give up the things that hurt our family.
I haven't done it. Managed to remain still, do nothing. I'd love to say that it's because I know better, but that's not true. I logically think it could do no harm. I haven't done it because I don't want to come back here to you guys and tell you I did it. Not the best of reasons, but it's stopped me so far.
That's pretty much the same reason we all stay dark! I found it hard not to snoop, but I can always tell when others are snooping or not going through withdrawal and I know I can't cheat on my plan.
Accountability is key.
It sounds like you're going through a normal withdrawal and I am glad to see it.
It means a) you still have ahealthy lovebank, and I was a bit afraid hed drained you dry and b) it means you'll feel better once you go through the withdrawal. I can't describe it but you feel much more zen.
you still have ahealthy lovebank, and I was a bit afraid hed drained you dry
When coming up with all the reasons I should contact him (because it's so easy to talk yourself into something) this was one of the things I considered.
I understand the concept of Plan B and how it is supposed to protect your lovebank. I think I don't fully grasp why it would work though.
No contact, no snooping, no anything to do with him should in theory keep him from hurting me - that I get.
But I feel that his not taking the kids when he's supposed to makes withdrawals anyway. Even following the no contact, only going through IM feels like it's withdrawing from my lovebank. It shows an utter lack of concern about me and the kids, at least in my mind.
We can cut off all contact, make every precaution and follow every tenant of Plan B, but if someone truly wanted to break through that - there is always a way. It may only work once before the BS can block that possibility again, but there will always be yet another way.
As crazy as it sounds, his not finding a way past no contact feels like it's making love withdrawals. Here's a man that has proven time and again he has absolutely no boundaries when it comes to dealing with other people. While it's nice to think he's respecting my wishes by staying away, it's much more obvious that he's unconcerned about me and the kids at all.
I think my need to make contact comes from the urge to say - hey, I'm still here. I'm still pissed. I still expect you to make this right. And don't think for a second that I'll just go away and make this easier for you.
With children, the LB$ does remove in PB. That is why it is even MORE important NOT to have even indirect contact with your WS.
A LOT of the reason that I didn't do certain things has been because I didn't want to let this board down. Kept me accountable. Keep it up. You're doing great.
There is a certain evaporation of the lovebank in Plan B, even when you don't have children.
The fact they don't take up the offer of reconcilliation, don't tell the IM they will do everything, makes you feel abandoned, and that withdraws units slowly.
But it is nowhere near as swift as the lovebank withdrawals in direct contact.
After some time in Plan B divorce hurts less, so the slow evaporation is OK. It puts an expiration date on your offer.
jenn, i am so proud of you! NC is HARD, i know. every day that went by without some kind of contact made me simultaneously PEEVED OFF and totally depressed. plus, you are aching for a hit yourself. posting my feelings to this board and talking w/my friends and family helped me not break it, which is paramount, because if you do, he'll know your PB is weak and he can cake eat.
you can journal your anger. i just opened a google doc, and when i was mad OR depressed, i just typed away my feelings (i type better than i handwrite). yes, it sometimes resulted in a good cry. but crying is good - it's helps you get through the grief and releases the tension of your anger and depression.
keep up the good work jenn.
With children, the LB$ does remove in PB. That is why it is even MORE important NOT to have even indirect contact with your WS.
After some time in Plan B divorce hurts less, so the slow evaporation is OK. It puts an expiration date on your offer.
Ok, so my lovebank is lessening, but it's slower than it would be if I had direct contact. I get that and totally feel the difference between how things were before and how they are now, internally.
There is a lot more peace. A lot more acceptance of the situation as it is. Much surely has to do with the ADs, but I can see how no contact would be important too.
I just can't help feel that by removing myself from his life, I've stepped aside to allow the behavior to continue. It feels like I'm enabling him to continue without repercussion for as long as he likes. Yes, I'm saving my love for him, but for what, exactly? So that when he finally gets it out of his system, I'm still willing to take him back? Do I really want to have love for him a year from now when that may occur? Wouldn't it be better to stand in his way, even if that risked any love that's left in process, and make the freedom less enjoyable? At least speed up the process a bit, because I really don't want to love him a year down the line?
because if you do, he'll know your PB is weak and he can cake eat.
More than accountability, I think this is the root of my hesitation to contact him and blast him. This is the fear that keeps me still.
Contacting him will move some of his focus back to me. Make him have to see that I'm not leaving him to his fun. All good, except he will try to turn it into keeping me and the "fun." Contacting him will tell him that I'm not strong enough to risk losing him over the cake eating. Not true, but that is how he'll see it.
I just can't help feel that by removing myself from his life, I've stepped aside to allow the behavior to continue..
You can't control his behaviour though. No one can control another person. All we can do is control how we are treated and stop taking it.
feels like I'm enabling him to continue without repercussion for as long as he likes.
You met more than half his needs. You used to reward his behaviour by meeting needs. Now he is left with half the fun and no reward. Most waywards in Plan B are miserable, just like drug addicts with no home or income. They still have their drug, but its cost them their real life.
Yes, I'm saving my love for him, but for what, exactly? So that when he finally gets it out of his system, I'm still willing to take him back? Do I really want to have love for him a year from now when that may occur? Wouldn't it be better to stand in his way, even if that risked any love that's left in process, and make the freedom less enjoyable? At least speed up the process a bit, because I really don't want to love him a year down the line?
Letting his abuse bust the love down in a faster way would harm you. BWs have been taken into psychiatric facilities and the children taken in by OPs.
It would be like a battered wife volunteering for beatings to destroy love.
And the wayward would top up the lovebank in between beatings.
His actions are none of your business now. Focus entirely on yourself. Build a life and future that is entirely for you.
Don't let him live in your head rent free.
Heal over a sensible time frame. You will see things more and more clearly as time goes on, just as you did at the party.
It won't hurt as much when you're through withdrawal and you won't even be aware of the protected lovebank. It will be so locked up, so frozen, you'll feel much more neutral about him than you do now.
Most waywards in Plan B are miserable
Well, good. I'm just having a hard time not being able to witness his being miserable. I want to know he's miserable. It would make me feel better.
His actions are none of your business now.
The reality of that struck me today. Even more to the extent that I really do know absolutely nothing. He could be in jail. He could be dead. He could be having the time of his life while knocking up women up and down the eastern seaboard. Didn't really need to consider that last one.
Not knowing is better, I'm sure of it. But I've never really bought into "what you don't know won't hurt you." It's a difficult adjustment to make.
But I've never really bought into "what you don't know won't hurt you." It's a difficult adjustment to make.
But you do know! You know he's wayward and undeserving of any of your time or any space in your brain. Any energy at all.
And you shouldn't buy into that phrase. Oh certainly not. That would never be my motto either. See my sig for my motto. I'm all about truth and openness.
When its something to do with you and your life. Your business.
He isn't anything to do with you now. He isn't your problem or concern any more. He's other peoples problem now! Let's see how well the fair weather friends do.
I know this is a HUGE adjustment to make. You're so used to his actions having some effect on you.
It takes time. One day, fairly soon in fact, you will see its possible to stop wondering and caring what he does.
Right now you want to see him miserable because you still see yourself as joined to him. That's just a symptom of withdrawal sickness.
You do know, deep down that you would much rather have a happier healther landscape to view, better things to do, worthier tasks to occupy you.
You don't really want a front seat in waywardsville. Becoming repulsed and pitying and angry in turns, do you?
He doesn't DESERVE your attention unless he EARNS them.
Plan B is not 'what you don't know what hurts you'
Plan B is 'I'm going to take my hands out of the sewage water and stop sifting it to see how dirty it is'
Plan B is Plan New Life, Plan Me and Plan I Dont Have Time To Think About How Stupid You Are.
Wow Indie.
You go girl!
Thanks reading.
I actually think people like me, with a single OW who has a romantic hold on the WS have an easier time of it than BWs who have greedy cake eater husbands with multiple OW like JiLs.
I know my OW. I know she's dumpy, bad tempered, promiscuous, controlling and was loathed by my WH for making his friends life a misery before they began grieving together.
When I read on here that a wayward has no taste, has no need to pick a good person, who meets needs well, I readily believe it because I've seen it. They just need a cheap hit.
When I read a wayward with an attractive/intelligient/affectionate spouse, doesn't need an attractive/affectionate/intelligient mistress, I believe it.
For a start a person with those qualities wouldn't be a mistress.
I have read that the OP 'could have been a goat' and I believe that is true. Because I've seen my husband's goat.
But when there is multiple OW, you must feel like you're being attacked by ghosts.
In the BSs mind, there is an endless supply of beautiful young things, sexy, fun and exciting.
And the WS in their mind is happier than ever, in an endless orgy and no commitment. That's what he always wished for isn't it?
Well be careful what you wish for.
There is a time I would have believed the endless orgy theory too, but we see it play out differently too often on here.
Look at Peachy's H and his open attitude to relationships. He swapped a brave and beautiful wife for a tawdry cheap copy. Then swapped the first OP for an even cheaper copy of her for his wistress. He just kept trading down and down so he could be with women who allowed him to cheat. He kept spiralling under the infliuence of these horrible women until his work suffered and he lost everything: job, children, home, money, freedom (he was jailed).
I actually think types like my WH with his SS 'soulmate schmoopie' are more comfortable in Plan B at first than those with orgy lifestyles.
SS types at first feel they haven't lost anything. They lost an old love, but they have a new love. All is well! Better than well! They have never felt so (doped up) in love! It takes time for that illusion to shatter.
Orgy types have lost nine needs in favour of one: sex. This is immediately apparent and they go crazy trying to break Plan B. They get one need met with one girl, the same need me with another. Same, same, same. Same as always, but less than before. They've had the buffet taken away and replaced with one food item they have to eat forever.
And they have no home. No one who gives a damn when the drinking stops.
Unless they can get the wife back. Or a wife that will allow him to cheat, a la Peachys H.
You're so used to his actions having some effect on you.
This is true. And I still feel the effects of his actions when he doesn't pick up the kids or pay for their preschool.
But - when he told me about his newest DUI, that didn't effect me like it once would have. I didn't have to worry about insurance costs, fine, court fees, etc because I rarely see money from him anyway. I didn't have to worry about being inconvenienced by his inability to drive for 2 years, because it is in no way my problem and I knew that immediately. It was a relief. Something I wasn't going to have to deal with like I always had before. He'll get a ride to pick up the kids, or he won't show. Not much different from now. And if he ever tries to put my kids in his car while he's unlicensed, I'll call the police. Easy enough.
You don't really want a front seat in waywardsville. Becoming repulsed and pitying and angry in turns, do you?
This perfectly describes, at the very least, the last 2 years of my life. I was beginning to believe those were the only feelings I could feel anymore. At least towards him. Add some desperation in there and that was my life. I cringe at the thought.
In the BSs mind, there is an endless supply of beautiful young things, sexy, fun and exciting.
Yes. And you worry, irrationally or not, how the heck are you supposed to compete with that? Who picks the 30+ woman with a herd of kids when the world is full of drunken sluts?
And the WS in their mind is happier than ever, in an endless orgy and no commitment. That's what he always wished for isn't it?
Of course. How do you not see separation as a way of continuing the drunken orgy without having to hide it anymore? I mean, sure, he still has to hide it from me (if I wasn't in Plan B, that is) but lying to me is second nature by now. He can openly screw around under the guise of a "separation" that was "mutual." That he really tried to come home, but the things I wanted were too "controlling," so why shouldn't he have "fun?"
Orgy types have lost nine needs in favour of one: sex. This is immediately apparent and they go crazy trying to break Plan B. They get one need met with one girl, the same need me with another. Same, same, same. Same as always, but less than before. They've had the buffet taken away and replaced with one food item they have to eat forever.
And they have no home. No one who gives a damn when the drinking stops.
But isn't that what they were after all along? Nonstop sex. No one complaining about the drinking? Isn't it possible that some WS just don't care if their other ENs are met, as long as there is SF and no LBs?
I ask purely from a curiosity standpoint. And I agree and question the above because that truly is what runs through my head at times.
At the current moment, my mind is clear. The word repulsed from the last post dances in my head. That is the crux of the entire situation and it's easy to see when not in consumed by the urges withdrawal creates. Dealing with him, in this situation is repulsive. It makes my skin crawl. Makes me want to shower. Repeatedly. I know that. Have known that for a very long time. I don't want him back while things are like this. Withdrawal just makes you crazy and forgetful at certain moments.
Thank you for talking sense into me. I really needed it.
At my moms and she plays the messages on her answering machine. My WS called and left me a message on her phone this morning. That was a surprise.
My FIL is in the hospital. Call him back. Yeah, that wasn't going to happen. I eventually decided to message one of my brother in laws, just saying that I wasn't sure what was going on with his dad, but that I was thinking about him and if my MIL needed anything to call me.
My brother in law got back to me right away. Not to worry, just his appendix which will probably be removed today.
I'm glad my FIL is fine. I really do love that man. But I'm totally irked that WH tried to use his illness as a way to get me to contact him. Cause, you know, if I did nothing, I was a huge uncaring jerk.
Totally glad I rationally thought of a way to show my care for FIL without having to deal with WH too. I just wish I hadn't had to hear his voice. That's going to bug me for a while.
And it would have been nice if he could have at least mentioned whether or not he was picking his kids up from school today. Now I still have to hike over there and make sure this afternoon since he hasn't picked them up the last 3 times he was supposed to.
Did your mom know it was a message from your WH? She knows not to talk to you about anything that pertains to him, correct?
This is why even small cracks in Plan B can hurt you.
Waywards are so thoughtless and selfish that all they think about is themselves.
Glad your FIL will be fine.
What are you doing for YOU today?
And it would have been nice if he could have at least mentioned whether or not he was picking his kids up from school today. Now I still have to hike over there and make sure this afternoon since he hasn't picked them up the last 3 times he was supposed to.
Can you set something up with the school to call you? I worry about you going there and then him showing up "late" and then you see him.
Are you documenting all the times he is not picking up the kids?
Did your mom know it was a message from your WH? She knows not to talk to you about anything that pertains to him, correct?
She knows not to tell me anything and didn't know he had left her a message. In almost 8 years, he's never left a message on her machine. Total fluke that I was even there to hear it.
What are you doing for YOU today?
Nothing that anyone else would probably feel is fun, but it works for me. Since the beginning of the year, I've been organizing the house, one task at a time. Today I tackle the bathrooms. I'm a bit of a freak when it comes to organization and open spaces, so it helps me feel like I'm tackling the chaos in my life one room at a time. And, added bonus, as I go through the house, I'm systematically removing all residual traces of WS. Old stuff found in the back of closets, drawers, etc. Every time I throw out some of his old junk, it makes me feel a little freer.
Can you set something up with the school to call you? I worry about you going there and then him showing up "late" and then you see him.
Are you documenting all the times he is not picking up the kids?
I'm going to try to get there early tomorrow morning and ask if that would be possible. I hadn't done so before because I hoped he would just fall in line and do what needed to be done, without having to ask the school to call me every Tuesday and Thursday. Obviously, that's not happening though.
I'm documenting everything. No shows, cancellations, even when he's 10 minutes late dropping them off, as well as the very few times there has been a visit with no issues.
Helps to keep my anger in check. Instead of being filled with rage each time, I just write it in the notebook and move on, knowing it'll screw him when the time comes.
So how else are you dealing with your anger? You don't want to hold it in because that isn't healthy.
How's your support system IRL?
So how else are you dealing with your anger? You don't want to hold it in because that isn't healthy.
How's your support system IRL?
No contact, combined with the ADs has left me with little anger. It only seems to appear in relation to his bailing on the kids and when he doesn't give me the extra money I need. I document it and for the most part it goes away. I have a friend that I talk to about it if it gets to be too much to keep to myself, but I'm probably going to try journaling next time instead. I don't want it to seems as though WS antics are the only thing I contact her with.
I've always channeled most of my anger into hardcore workouts, but with the pregnancy, that hasn't been possible. I hope to get back to that in January, with the focus being more on health than anger by then.
I've got my mom and my best friend. A little too much pity from my mom, a little too much tough love from my friend, but both are always there when I need them. I've got an aunt that I'm close with, but haven't really put the effort into the relationship that I should have in recent years. The same for two of my other long time friends. Have been making some efforts to reconnect in those relationships, but really need to be doing more.
Drove over to the school to find that WS did in fact pick the kids up today.
Had a gut feeling. Drove past OW1's house. His car was there. He took my kids to her house. While driving past wasn't Plan B, I had to know if he was taking them there. No excuses, knew I shouldn't, but I did and now I know.
So now what do I do? Is there a way to stop this? He never takes them and the one time he does, he brings them to her house. Can I cut off visitation until he files for it?
Going to talk to my mother tomorrow about lawyer fees. I think this may be the thing that will make paying my retainer seem like a necessary thing.
Lots of great Plan Bing, Jen.
Not contacting him when triggered by the voicemail, documenting stuff, getting the school to support you, I like your spring/summer clear out plans too!
Maybe you should tighten that Plan B gap so if WH keeps your parents number, they never play messages when you're there. Does he need their number at all?
No, driving past OW1s house is not very Plan B... But I can't say I blame you too much as its your children and you knew. However you can't do that again without it affecting your withdrawal and sanity, so we need to figure out what you do from now on..
I do know that some Plan Bers in the US have managed to get orders banning the possibility of the children having contact with the adultery partner
But others have had to put up with the OW.
I'm sorry he did that with the kids, Jen. That truly is revolting. Hugs.