Hmmmm, thanks for the good insight & experience TisMeAgain!

Yep, have tried "gentle reminders," over and over. Have also tried "not so gentle" - you are right, those don't work either.

Withdrawal was next for us, too. Thank goodness for SH!

How did you turn the corner? What finally gave your H the motivation to become more aware?

Yes, I have reminded him gently: time after time after time.

Thoughtless behavior repeated over and over - with no hope of improvement - and a spouse who believes that "our biggest problem is your complaints," however gently stated, is on a death march.

SH is helping us - motivating us both - to address these issues. I can't do this myself. My H will have to participate and I am hoping he will!

SH actually told me that UA is not wise for us right now. Crazy, huh? We're so broken, we'd probably just do more damage than good until we figure out how to stop LB'ing and start EN'ing.

I guess we're kind of in Intensive Care right now.

Thanks for the encouragement & advice everyone. My H and I are going to compare notes on our last 2 sessions tonight. We'll see how it goes!

How did it go, Zhamila?

Thanks for asking, Anointed! We kept it short and sweet, and it went well....until he interrupted me. I just said, "you interrupted me," and stopped talking. Then he sighed and fell asleep on the couch in our room after staring at the ceiling for a while.

So we ended the evening alone.

Monday is our next session, so we have another weekend to get through. But at least we hugged today, which is a BIG DEAL. And we've filled out our ENQ's and LBQ's for SH, which helped me rationally think through the stuff that bugs me.

When I see the list of stuff, I feel less overwhelmed because I realize that we could knock it all out in a few weeks and just go be happy!

I'll update you if we make progress this weekend! Thanks for the encouragement, Anointed!

Zhamila,
I just wanted to say that your H sounds a lot like mine. Your post has helped me alot and I will be following it. I don't know if I will have anything to add, except maybe sympathize with what you are going through. ((Hugs))

Zhamila, I have been catching up on your thread and think I recognized something in the above exchange. I should first say that you are in excellent hands and getting great advice on this thread!

I think I recognize what happened above in your conversation with your husband and why he yanked his phone out. The basic issue is that he is not "in love" right now and I think you realize that. But more importantly, I bet he gets very distracted if you don't get to the point right away, doesn't he? Have you heard Dr Harley and Joyce go through this? It drives Joyce crazy that Dr Harley goes off on his "rabbit chases" and she has to bring him back down. He tries hard to get back on track.

I am the same way. If someone doesn't get right to the point, they will quickly lose my attention. That doesn't mean you can't explain your position in full, it just means I have to GET IT right up front. We do the same things in sales; I work for a soft drink company. When I sell something, I have to get to the point in the first 2 sentences or I will lose their attention. Once I get their attention, I have their interest and can spend all the time I want supporting my point.

Do you see what I mean? If you learn to get to the point right up front, you will be more successful at holding his attention. Along these lines:

DH: "what did Steve say that made you get all choked up?"

Zhamila: It was so endearing to hear him describe marriage in that way <-------that is the point

DH: can you elaborate?

Then you have piqued his interest and he will ask questions. If he has to listen to a long explanation just to get the point, he will quickly lose interest. Do you think that describes him?

And as far as pulling out the phone, just say "please don't pull out the phone when are together. It upsets me." That is all my H had to say. I am a strong advocate of just saying it straight out.

I have a question about your husband. Where and how did you meet? Has he ever had an affair? How did his last marriage end?

Loves2011, Thank you for the hugs! This means so much to me. I will pray for your marriage while I pray for mine, and Anointed's.

{{{Loves2011}}} (that's a "We're in this together" hug!)

Thanks for the observation, MelodyLane. I will try this. And I think we might leave our phones in the car when we're out...this seems to work better.

I do remember one time when I said, teary-eyed: "I was so sad when my Dad died." and he literally turned around, looked out the window and said, "I wonder what that guy is doing?"

There is such a deep sense of betrayal when you reach out to another person, and they completely "miss" you. When you realize after many, many of these betrayals that you are invisible to your spouse: the one you thought would care for you.

I grieve daily that I do not have the best friend I wanted. I spent time today with a girlfriend: what love, empathy, and kindness we shared! I felt so cared for, so "heard" and "seen" - she also encouraged me to look for the good, to try to be patient.

I want that kind of friendship with my H. I'm not sure if it is possible, but I will keep trying until I run out of gas.

We first met online, then found that we go to the same church. We dropped contact, then 9 months later - when we were 'ready' - we decided to meet at church in person. (It's a big church) We dated for 6 months, got engaged, and married 3 months later. Probably too fast, but our pastor recommended a speedy courting period.

I don't think he had an affair in his last marriage - he says he did not. He was an alcoholic married to a drug addict. He quit drinking, she kept up her lifestyle, then things spiraled down. They lived completely independent lives, she had an affair and he ended the marriage.

I have read material on recovered alcoholics, how sometimes the patterns continue even after they quit drinking. I remember asking him one time if he ever did anything when he was younger, just to make his parents happy. He said, "why would I do that?"

I had very abusive/neglectful parents growing up, but I still tried to be kind to my mother when I was old enough, so this response did surprise me.

ANYHOO, I agree that he's probably not "in love" with me right now. So that makes two of us.

One more thing, Question:

How are we gonna get past this sense that I need to see some "proof" here? You know, I didn't lose my love for him 'cause he was being so great to me all this time. And any little thing sets us all the way back to deep resentment.

You know, I'm tired of getting burned. Yes, he made me coffee this morning. and that was nice.

But dang it, I just don't feel like jumping up and down and rejoicing over that! Putting myself all the way out there again, and getting bonked again!

I need to see REAL and LASTING change - not just another round of "be nice for a week, have sex" then start the downward spiral of ignoring me, neglect, blame and anger, and me sleeping on the couch or floor again, trying to avoid his presence.

Honestly, when I hear Dr. Harley talk about "Just Compensation" for an affair, I say, "AMEN!" ....well, "Just Compensation" for ongoing neglect and betrayal ain't a bad idea either!

Just sayin'

I'm sure I'll get some people chastising me for this rant.....

Zhamila, breaking down into tears over a death makes people VERY VERY uncomfortable. I try to NEVER do that to people because it makes them so uneasy. I refer to that as "inflicting my grief on others." Not fair! I am sure it just makes him very uneasy, so I would stop doing that. People just don't know what to say. Bringing up past tragedies and crying over them is an enemy of good conversation.

And do you really think it helps you at all by talking about your dad and bringing yourself to tears? I don't see how. Bringing hurts of the past into the present is not healthy. It is just a downer for you and others. I have found that I get over tragedies so much more effectively by NOT revisiting them.

Hopefully this program can help him turn this around... I would give it more time.

MelodyLane, I cannot agree with you this time. If there is anyone on earth a person should be able to share their deepest feelings with, it is your spouse. I'm not burdening some stranger on the street: this is my husband.

MB is about honesty. I wasn't bringing up a "mistake of the past" in order to criticize my spouse. I was bringing up a sadness that I had experienced. There is a great difference between the two.

Here's an excerpt from one of Dr. Harley's articles on conversation:

"Remember how it used to be? You and your wife used to be fascinated with each other. You would support and encourage each other. Empathy and understanding were almost effortless. You had many common interests to talk about. Somehow, you need to resurrect the kindness, consideration, empathy and interest you once shared in your conversations with each other.

I suggest that you investigate the facts of each other's personal histories, present experiences and plans for the future. Also investigate each other's attitudes and emotional reactions to those facts.

To withhold accurate information about your inner self prevents intimacy and leaves the need for meaningful conversation unmet.

By reaching an understanding of each other, your conversation will break through the superficiality barrier. You become emotionally connected to each other, and able to bring out each other's best feelings, and avoid the worst."

In fact, the Fourth Friend of Good Conversation is "Giving each other undivided attention." If anything was "not fair" about our conversation, it was the lack of undivided attention.

My mistake was in sharing with someone who is not interested: my H.

Maybe you should bring this up with Steve on your next session?

Be careful of your DJ's of your H.

ML, I will try. It's getting critical, and every day brings fresh hurt. He really doesn't want to know about the hurt, I can see him getting more and more fed up.

In fact, on the way to the symphony tonight, he said something disrespectful to me. I said, "That's not earning you points, and we need to get some points." He immediately responded, "Well you need points, too."

You know, 'cause it's all about him, always. You know, 'cause my feelings never matter, just his.



...And I'm sleeping in my son's room, and he pokes his head in the door and asks, "Why are you in here?" So I ask, "Do you really want to know?" and he says, "Yeah."

"Because I get hurt around you, and sometimes I need to protect myself from the hurt."

"Fine." - he closes the door, leaves.

...nah. He didn't really want to know.

Sorry but I disagree. You can see your husband was very uncomfortable with your grief and it ruined your conversation with him. You DID burden him with your grief. Unless your goal is to make him uncomfortable, I wouldn't do that to him again. One of the enemies of good conversation is bringing up unpleasant subjects. Being "honest" does not mean dragging up every unpleasant thing from the past. Dr Harley even tells people who have been victims of affairs NOT to bring up the affair after the truth is known. And why is that? Because it is unpleasant and ruins the conversation.

Trying to force him to endure such displays of grief is not an approach that works with him.

Proverbs 30: 21-23

�Under three things the earth trembles,
under four it cannot bear up:
a servant who becomes king,
a fool who is full of food,
an unloved woman who is married,
and a maidservant who displaces her mistress."

The earth is trembling.

Does another wife out there know how to strike a balance between dependence upon the Lord for our needs v. our need to be loved by our H's?

I keep messing up, and going too far to one or the other. Advice welcomed...

"You know, 'cause it's all about him, always. You know, 'cause my feelings never matter, just his. "

Yet in your previous post you indicated his feelings don't matter when it comes to his discomfort with your grief even though you can clearly see how uneasy he is. You expect empathy from him but afford him none.

I am very surprised that you dont understand how hard it for most people to endure displays of grief. That shows a lack of empathy on your part too. Do you realize that?

Thanks BrainHurts - I will watch my DJs.
And I'll ask Steve about it tomorrow.

Sheesh, posting near midnight is not the best time to share - it's all emotion and nothing rational.