We've had a pretty good last couple of days. Last night my WW took our son to the Easter show. They went by train while I was at work. I offered to pick them up as I didn't want her catching the train at night. I asked later if I was to knock off work a little early would she want me to join them for a few hours. She accepted the offer which was great. We went on a few rides and had some fun together.

She said she was happy to see me and enjoyed the night. I payed her endless compliments and she payed me a few also. I still can't seem to get any sort of affection from her though. We held hands while walking along for a while which I instigated. She didn't push me away, but she wasn't enthusiastic about it either and I noticed she walked with her arms crossed for a while after (not sure if this was to avoid me holding her hand again or not).

When we got back to her place, I offered to come in and give her a foot massage as she was on her feet all day. She declined because that would mean waking our son who was asleep in the car. So we had a chat in the car where I told her how much I loved her and how beautiful she is. She said she wants to grow old with me and was full of emotion. I was finally starting to feel like I'm getting somewhere. Then, when it was time to say goodnight she gave me a hug and that was it. I was really hoping for a kiss even if it was just on the cheek, but nope, nothing.

After I drove away, she rang me to ask why I didn't wait to make sure she got inside ok. I told her it was because I was upset she didn't kiss me. I told her that my love for her is alive and well and how much it hurts to not be able to hold her and kiss and passionately like a man and wife should. I feel like I am making progress but she is still being loyal to OM and doesn't want to be romantic with me. I know I am setting up things nicely for PB but it is tough knowing that she doesn't have romantic feelings for me anymore.

I missed you Q aout telling your son, basically its just tell the truth in an age appropriate way - this may help.



Dr. Harley talks about telling children even as young as four




Very posibly. Its odd, but some months back I had a friend confess to me she was cheating on her boyfriend (not friends any more) She was loving the attention from the two men, but she told me she had started keeping her hand tucked away so her BF could hold it. She said she would have loved to hold hands but felt guilty for leading him on while she 'didnt know how she really felt'

The kicker is that they (rightly) never feel guilty for leading the OP up the garden path while undecided, but guilt interferes with their proper relationship.

I think its great you got her to hold hands and that it very probably started some guilt. As I said, her guilt is your friend.

Offering a foot massage, getting her to brim over with emotion - all FANTASTIC plan Aing. Its not surprising she was too overwhelmed to kiss you properly. She isnt exactly planning on you reawkening her feelings and she will not help you do it.



Typical wayward creating a fly in the ointment. I think your response was perfect. Shows admiration and stand up for yourself in that you have needs too. but you just talk about how you 'felt' you didnt make SDs or DJs. Very good.



If she was drunk off her azz she wouldnt feel romantically for you either. Shed just drool and talk nonsense. Sound familiar?

She's got one hell of a hangover coming and she will remember parts of what you did during this time. Just set up those memories to be good ones. Its not for drunko, its for the future wife, the one who will have romantic feelings if she could just put down the damned bottle.

Indiegirl, I cannot begin to express my gratitude for your words of wisdom. You've been of great help.

Taking my kids through the caves tomorrow. Hoping she'll agree to come along too. Also have a few more weekend outings up my sleeve where I will invite her along, a couple of which should stir up some emotions. She won't be able to resist me forever!

Take pics if she says no so she can see what she missed.

Fantastic opportunity to make LB deposits. Even if she says no, go anyway and be the best LoveMyBird possible.

She will remember the invitation and then remember the good times.

Keep it up.

Well your Plan A seems to have blossomed, so lets look at the other issues, we were talking about.



How did she react to your NC letter re the OW? Have you asked her for the identity of the OM and for her to give you an NC letter to send him?


A keylogger would be so great, it would give you everything you need for exposure. Exposure very often kills the affair dead, at the very least it wounds it.

We need to figure out the best tactics and order of doing things.

Is she going away? Does she ever stay over at parents or friends houses? Even if she is just at work, you could invent a 'landlord emergency' that meant you had to break into the house. Say, you went around to do the landscaping work as a caring gesture, and then you smelled gas/smoke. So you had to break in. As for the gas/smoke, you couldnt find anything wrong, whoops.

Its not against the law for you to break into your own house,is it. And if you do it when she's not there you may be able to clean up after yourself so she never knows you broke in.

Or just offer to babysit at the house while she goes to a spa day you arranged for her (EN meeting). You have the pest controller around at your house, so you cant have the kids there. And you need to take medication so you cant drive them somewhere.

Last but not least, buy her a notepad or a phone with internet access and preinstall spyware on it. The gift also meets an EN for affection.

Her response about the NC letter was "I don't care about your stupid no contact letter". I haven't asked again about identity or NC letter for OM, this is where it always turns ugly so I'm just trying to continue doing the best I can for the time being. At some point she will have to provide that but I think it may be a little down the track yet.

I really doubt that I will be able to access her computer for a key logger. She has her own password for that. I really wish I was snooping back when she was still here. I could have found everything I needed and wouldn't be in this position now.

I have already been accused of breaking into her house and I really wouldn't feel comfortable doing that. Besides, she is pretty much always at home. She doesn't work and doesn't get out to socialize much.

Her phone is precious to her. I have offered her new iPhones and I bought her an iPad for her last birthday but she left it here when she left. I don't think she will accept a new phone anytime soon and I'm pretty sure she would be clued in to spyware.

So I don't really have much snooping capabilities but I'll do what I can, when I can. Right now I'm more focused on just spending as much time with her as possible to try to get her used to having me around meeting her EN's.

No matter. You offered and that puts EN coins in her lovebank whether she likes it or not. It also disables her ability to say 'well you are dating too' because you just reply 'I have blocked all contact with her and the NC letter is written and ready whenever you want it'.



As for accessing the home, if you keep building this rapport with her, you may get more access to the house than you have right now. I'd get a couple of VARs and keep them on you, just in case you get invited in unexpectedly.

You should make her a video of the kids on the iPad, and then give it to her as a gift. Stick a post-it on the iPad telling her how to download it, where to find it etc. You could also install other stuff on there that she might enjoy, family photos, music you know she likes etc...make it a really good Trojan horse.

Since you have it already, give it a shot. If fate is smiling on you, she will start using it all the time... and then bingo, she slips up and reveals who OM is.

Waywards are stupid. Yeah they are paranoid and crazy 90 per cent of the time and obsessed with covering their tracks, but its exhausting and sooner or later they drop their guard.

I spent a fortune on gadgets, as my husband was in the home. However he took his phone into the shower with him and he was barely in the house more than a few hours to sleep.

Yet one day he just slipped up and left a receipt for a hotel right in his pocket, hanging there in the hall.

A week later he came home, put his phone on the table and went upstairs to take a nap. Couldn't believe my luck and thats how I nailed him and discovered who OW was.

They ALL slip up at some point. Just be ready to take advantage of the situation when it happens.



A plan that only meets ENs is all carrot and no stick which won't work. Exposure is the most important part of Plan A, so ignore it at your peril. Get a PI if you have to.

I do think though, that meeting her ENs and acting unsuspicious and loving for a short time may get her to drop her guard, but be ready for it when she does.

I am certainly not ignoring the stick part of Plan A, just being a little lenient with it until I get a foot back in the door.

From my perspective, all the right things are happening. We just spoke on the phone for half an hour after I said goodnight to our son and she is calling again later for another chat. I think she is genuinely making an effort at the moment. It's just the affection part that's missing now, which is hard. I tell her I love her all the time and I get "I care about you" in return. I'll persevere though and keeping putting deposits in her LB.

Yeah that is smart, like I said it will encourage her to drop her guard. Just be ready to snoop when she does.



She's a wayward, LMB. The word 'genuine' does not apply to her until she hits rock bottom and you see full remorse, repentance and O&H. Have you also read the Never Take the Word of a Wayward thread?

Your Plan A is going excellently well, just keep in mind it is being done TO her, and that no matter what her reaction, her reaction is a lie while she's wayward.

Waywards are hostile or cold when they feel in danger of loving the BS too much or feel guilty.

Waywards are loving and affectionate when they are trying to lull their BS into sticking around and being cake for them to eat.

So no matter what her reaction is, it's untrue. they say 'I love you' to trick you and 'I hate you' to control you with fear.

When she acts loving and when she seeks loving behaviour from you, it's because she's a greedy cake eater. That works in your favour right now while you are plan Aing her, but don't trust it.

In fact, when exposure hits, most WWS are overwhelmed that their husbands are fighting for the marriage - yet they dont say this, they say 'I hate you'.

One of the hardest things about plan A with a cake eater is that they stuff your love bank making you feel loving again and then its hard to be tough and do what you have to. You should try to treat all her EN meeting with a pinch of salt. The person who cares less has the most power - that's why you are trying to fill her love bank, just dont let her pull the same trick on you.

I know you don't have access to her phone, but do you have access to online phone records? Then you can at least see who she's calling.

Can you hire a PI?

These are good reads so you know waywards fall the same script.

Also Plan A is both carrot and stick. Not one or the other but both.
Never Take the word of a Wayward
Craziest Things to come out of a Wayward's Piehole

Do you have GPS and VAR in her car?

Do you ever plan To move back home?

Message understood IG.

BrainHurts, I don't have access to her online phone bills. I know my wife has been reading on here as she has accused me of breaking in to her place and she asked if I put a GPS on her car. She didn't SEEM to care if I did because she never goes anywhere but I reckon she would be driving herself crazy trying to find it.

She rejected my offer to come with us today. I was disappointed and told her so. She said "I don't have to come everywhere you know". I just told her that I won't continue to offer forever. Our conversation last night turned a bit ugly when I brought up the OM and once again started to tell her that I must know all the details for us to have any real chance. I was cut off short with her response "I know, I know, you've said it before". Then she proceeded to tell me how our conversation always turns into an angry argument. Now, I never raised my voice and wasn't angry. I told her how disappointed I am that she willingly continues to hurt me and that I deserve to be loved and cherished, not pushed away and trodden on.

I think I'm just about ready for plan b.

One way to know if you're ready for Plan B is if you KNOW you did everything you could in Plan. Once you shut that door it's shut.

Dr. H usually recommends BH to do a 6 month or longer of Plan A.

What are her top EN?

First you need to know if the affair is dead and you haven't verified that yet.

Can you hire a PI? They'll have the goods in no time.

Why aren't you living with her?

How are you doing the best Plan A if you're arguing with her?

Sounds like your taker is showing its ugly head?

What are you doing for your Plan A?

Read this that Melodylane just posted to Lookingforhelp's thread


Unless you use this program to createa much bettermarriagethan theoneyou had beforetheaffair, you are likely looking at repeat affairs. So don't even think you can get away with sweeping the affair under the rug and going back to what you had before. What you had before led to the affair!

Brainhurts. I don't believe my taker entered the picture as I didn't argue or raise my voice at all. I simply expressed my disappointment in her continued decision not to reveal OM identity. I didn't go on and on about it, just a simple reminder that we cannot progress further without this. It is her controlling method to say "see, we always end up fighting about things, why can't you just forget about it". Maybe I am a bit impatient, six months is a long way down the track, but you're right, I should continue with plan A for longer. It's just difficult when my EN's are completely forgotten about.

I'm not living with her because she wanted to move out. At the time I was unaware of the affair although had my suspicions. She obviously wanted to pursue the affair without interruption. Wish I found this site back then, I'd probably be well on the way to recovery by now.

I had already read that post by Melodylane and agree wholeheartedly with each point.

Today turned out to be good with the kids, got some good happy photos in the caves and surrounds to show her. Also, we got to play with a wild echidna which is a pretty rare opportunity. Got some pics of that too.

Lovemybird,

Have you read SAA yet? If not please order it today.

There is a true couple, John and Sue, that Dr. Harely counseled and Sue left John and moved in with her OM. John Plan A'd her for a very long time and then went to Plan B, until Sue and her OM's affair "died a natural death".

Please revisit this Carrot and Stick of Plan A

Dr. Harley said they are recovered to this day and doing very well.

I'm not saying you have to do what John did, but you can learn from it. Your Plan A needs to be stellar. Our taker shows it's head when we start thinking things like "what about me? or what about my EN?

Can you afford some sessions with Steve Harely? He is coaching some BH's from the boards as we speak and are giving them excellent plans.

Is there any way you can put a GPS or VAR in her car?

Can you afford a PI?

Have you told your children yet?

Thanks for your input BH.

I haven't read SAA yet, it's been ordered for a couple of weeks now, just waiting for it to turn up. I have read HNHN and currently reading Love Busters.

I actually believe the affair has died a natural death or at the very least is in deep trouble. I ask my 5 year old if she spends much time on the phone and he used to say "yes, all the time" like he was sick of her being on the phone instead of playing with him. Now he seems to either say no or just shrug his shoulders.

My wife is also a lot more willing to spend time with me now. Just tonight she rang up to see how our son enjoyed his day out today and then asked if she could ring after he went to bed to chat with me. We had a good light hearted chat for a while which was nice. I invited her over for dinner to give her something healthy to eat, as I know she doesn't really bother cooking anything when she is by herself. She did decline, but I think that's more because my children have been told the truth (well as much as I know anyway) and she feels uncomfortable around them. She did however, invite me to lunch one day this week. When we were together we used to religiously go out for lunch together with our son every Wednesday, so hopefully we can restart this tradition.

My wife has been reading this thread at some point, so I don't want to clue her in on my snooping abilities (sorry baby!!) but I am quietly confident the affair is in trouble and she doesn't seem to be bothered with being checked up on at the moment.

Hadn't even considered coaching from Steve Harley due to us being in Australia. Not sure my wife would like dealing with a male though. At the first hint of any criticism she would think us boys are ganging up on her. That's what she thought when we went to see a female MC. Food for thought though

Oh she's reading your thread? No wonder you won't answer all the questions.

You could also coach with Dr. Jennifer Harley Chalmers (she's the Harley's daughter and co-wrote SAA).

Email and follow up on your SAA book. Also even though you're in Australia they should still be able to coach with you. We have a BW on the boards from NZ and she is coaching with Steve Harley.

I would look into it. Coaching Center

Seriously? Your wife, an active wayward, reads the thread aimed at attacking her affair?

You're not going to save your marriage like that.

Leaving your plans open to sabotage means your plans will not succeed.

What part of she is not on your side while wayward is hard to understand?