So H and I are pretty familiar with the program. We are doing the books/CDs/workbooks.

We get 15-25 hours a week of UA time. Actually we spend all but about 50 hours a week together.

I have lots of stuff to work on, but I feel like I am doing a good job of meeting needs and not LBing. My biggest Lb BY FAR are DJs. I had a big problem with venting and AOs. It has not worked out well to eliminate them. I am happy that I have done so well at eliminating AOs because it is wrong etc. but it has not been good for my marriage because he feels like he is doing fine when he isn't. I think I may misunderstand something:

What is the correct way to respond to Ib? I have been responding to LBs like this: either calmly pointing them out in the moment or, more often, sitting down about once a week and calmly letting him know of LBs without venting or going on and on. The only consequence is a lower love bank balance on my end, but if I am doing my job right, he won't actually notice this, right?

So we had a really rough week last week, complicated situation involving lots of triggers for past stress etc. It involved major LBs on his part including an overnight trip. When I brought up the trip (which I was originally fine with and probably would have been fine with again after talking about it) he got instantly defensive and weird. I didn't let it escalate too much and avoided LBs. When things cooled off and we had nice UA time we talked about it calmly and he said he was defensive because he wanted to go and he did not want to have any conversation with me that involved not going and had his defenses up. We had lots of UA time after that including a little overnight at a local hotel. I was still bummed about what happened (the defensiveness on his part) but I did awesome need-meeting etc. (I am not getting my needs met very well and H still LBs me out of habit). That was the weekend before his overnight.

So I felt so terrible and sad while he was away on his trip. I did not tell him that if he went I would be upset with him or that it would lower my love bank balance or whatever. He knows MB concepts. BUT when he got back I didn't know how to act. He planned an awesome date for when he got back and I was awkward at the house before we left. He asked me if I was mad and I was honest, that I didn't feel great about our marriage. We went on the date and of course he was tense and distant. I know that was my fault...

We ended up having a yucky conversation today...not a fight really, but an honest conversation. I told him that he was draining my LB faster than he could fill it up. He takes great offense to this. He does not think it's valid for IB to cause this huge of a problem. I really want to separate when he talks like this, I worry that our marriage will never improve if he doesn't believe the LB concept. He tells me "it's on me" if we separate over something so stupid (doing fun stuff without me)...I tend to agree, but I am a wreck all the time over our relationship.

What am I missing. I should be: meeting needs, avoiding LBs and letting him know what my needs are and when he LBs, right?

I only find out my LBs to him when I bring up that I am upset about something he is doing, so I thought I was doing well, but maybe I am not...

I feel like plan B with a small child and a faithful, non-abusive, non-addicted spouse seems ridiculous but I am sad and upset all the time.

That was really long. The real questions are: what is the proper way to respond to LBs and is it really act sweet and loving right up until plan b? Seems weird and manipulative. I don't think he knows how much damage he is doing when I use only calm words...

You let them know that they are LBing you! Have you done the questionairres? You should, and write down how much IB affects you, the exact things he does that are IB LBs for you, and what you would like for him to do instead.

IB is a hard nut to crack. People get in the habit of being thoughtless, and society tells them that they should make themselves happy above all else. You can tell someone that they husrt you without AOing or DJing, and the shortest route to doing that is to focus on behavior instead of motivation.

" You are a selfish jerk and planned this just to piss me off!"
Becomes
"I feel excluded when you plan things without me. I would like it if you made me part of your plans. I am not saying that I never want you to do anything without me, but while we are in this tender spot, including me would make me feel awesome and important to you."

Never, ever again agree to something you don't like. Conflict avoiders are very difficult to please, because you force us to try to read your mind.

When he starts bringing up your faults in response to your complaints, redirect to the original topic. "Thanks for telling me. How about we discuss that in more depth later? Right now we were talking about x, and I would like to resolve it, and then we can address your complaint, because I want to resolve that, too."

Good points, CWMI, a lot of that applies to me.

What about when H knows something is an LB, is reminded weekly and/or in the moment, and does it anyway?

I know I'm doing it wrong, but I don't know how to do it correctly.

A minor example:
Me: "I don't like mean jokes when I talk, like you calling me ugly"
We are on a date, I open up about something, he jokes about me being ugly.
Me: "please don't mean-joke, it hurts my feelings and shuts me down"
Him: "you know it's a joke, it's just how I am, I'm sorry, I will work on it"
Then, it happens over and over.

Mean-joking is a huge problem for me

How do I respond? This is during normal, non-relationship conversations.
I don't want to ruin our dates.

You can respond more strongly than that, without going into AO or DJ territory.

"Do you really think I am ugly?"--said perfectly straight-faced and serious, but no scowling.

What will he say? I hope it is no! When he says that, you respond, "Then stop calling me that. It makes me want to not be around you. if it continues, I am going home. Would you like to share a flan? Or, I heard the cheesecake is really good here, if you'd prefer that. What do you think?"

Telling him you don't like bad behavior is not going to ruin the date; the bad behavior is doing that.

Okay, I don't ever refer to ending a date, but I do ask if he thinks I'm ugly. "you KNOW I don't think you are ugly, that's what makes it a joke" is the response I get.

...and I know mean jokes are simply a habit. They just don't make dates enjoyable for me.

I need to end dates etc. it's hard because UA time is the most important thing...

Thanks for the lesson in boundaries 101, sigh. With my history and ongoing struggle of AOs, DJs and LBs in general it's hard to think of myself as a pleaser. I get how I am though, and I set myself up to want to LB by letting things build.

Why the heck are boundaries so hard to enforce but LBing is so easy? The reverse is true for my non-intimate family relationships...

Another response to a LB is "Ouch."

Any chance you could email the Harley's radio show with that question? I think it would be very interesting to hear his response, and helpful to lots of us.

wannatry, we used to have a poster OurHouse who her and her H counseled with Steve. Basically if you look at the situation, you can stop it earlier in the process, until you are able to redirect before withdrawals are made. I hope that makes sense?

http://www.marriagebuilders.com/graphic/mbi8507_fft.html


Who needs the radio show... when the article already exists!

To the point; when he tries to excuse or justify his behavior, he is putting forth a Disrespectful Judgment!

If WT would just understand that he was joking, everything should be fine!

But... it's not. His behavior is hurtful to WT, so the solution is not for her to "learn to take a joke," but for him to quit joking at her expense when she tells him it hurts her feelings.

That's great advice....for him. In the meantime she's feeling unloved and unsafe.

V[quote=kerala]That's great advice....for him. In the meantime she's feeling unloved and unsafe. [/quote

So what is your advice for her?

If it was me, I wouldn't stand for being treated that way and would make that pretty clear to my partner. When she asks him "Do you really think I'm ugly?" that just gives him the opportunity to assert plausible deniability. He doesn't appear to care that it hurts her. But standing up to a bully is easier said that done for some people....

So I think the advice to call the radio show was the most sensible option. Hopefully it will produce something for HER to do, as opposed to telling her what he SHOULDN'T be doing. She can't control that. She can only control herself, decide on her boundaries and protect herself. Maybe Dr H will have some advice specific to her sitch and current emotional state.

Here's a radio clip on the DH telling jokes on his DW's expense.
Radio Clip on telling jokes at your wife's expense

Please tell me what you think.

What should she do?

Tell him briefly, and respectfully, that his joking about her destroys her love for him, and leave it right there at that.

If he begins to argue, walk away.

And his "explanations" are arguments.

It doesn't appear to me that you're doing it wrong. It's respectful, clear, and to the point. However, you said "I don't like mean jokes" and "Please don't..." Maybe you could actually say "It bothers me when you call me ugly." And then, you have to leave it up to him to change this behavior.

I would hope that he would stop it altogether, but doing it over and over again may require a boundary deal. Maybe suggest that it bothers you so much that although you don't want to end a date early, if he repeats this behavior during the next date, the date is ended there.

It's rather similar to being able to leave a conversation when your spouse is using SDs, Djs, and/or angry outbursts. It's not your job to just sit there and take it.

That's just my 2 cents.

Please listen to this from Dr. Harley.

Next time he called me ugly, I'd laugh and say, "That's so funny, LOUSY LOVER/TINY WEINER/CAN'T GET IT UP GUY."

Pick one that might help him understand your POV.

Tell him since he hasn't had much success "working on it", you think he needs to put his money where his mouth is. He has to give you $20 for the first offense, $40 for the second, $80 for the third...you get the idea.

Eventually, you will look forward to when he says it, and he will be terrified to.

OR you could use chores around the house that you hate doing.

Anyway, you get the idea.

The reason he doesn't stop this AWFUL behavior is b/c the consequences aren't severe enough. Make him hate the consequences so much that he will never do it again.

Dr. Harley says AOs are a deal breaker. They should not be allowed in a marriage.

These kind of "jokes" would be a deal breaker for me too.