We work together but rarely see each other. My wife works with us as well but she also rarely sees him since d-day.

This is why your marriage never recovered and never will.

My participation, I admit, is off and on. We did follow MB's program and my wife ended all contact and I exposed the affair to his wife. WW is trying to meet my needs the best way she knows how. I think I expect too much from her sometimes and when she does not live up to what I think she should be doing I fall back in that hole of depression.

Step one in recovery is to end all contact for life with the OM. Your wife has not done that. In order to take Step TWO, you must take STEP ONE. So no, you are not using Marriage Builders to save your marriage. You haven't even taken step one.

Listen to this radio clip of a BH who called Dr Harley ask why his marriage can't recover after his wifes affair: http://www.marriagebuilders.com/radio_program/play_segment.cfm?sid=652

You have not even taken STEP ONE towards recovery:

Very large company with many locations in the area. They work in different buildings as do I. She has only ran into him once since d-day and claims that is it. She knows avoid him at all costs. I admit that it would be easier if she and I did not work with him but that is not an option for our family right now.
You say that "this is the problem and our marriage will never recover". really? not because EN's are not met or other issues?
It is kind of short sited to think one issue will keep any marriage form working.

I just listed two thing out of many. I said we have used MB and I am here to try to resolve some lingering issues that I'm still dealing with emotionally.
Trying to get advice not critics.

You are showing a lack of insight to say you can recover your marriage this way when you already know it doesn't work. You already know it doesn't work.

Did you listen to Dr Harley on the radio clip: "What is the FIRST STEP in recovery after an affair? NEVER SEE OR SPEAK TO THE OM AGAIN. Recovery is impossible unless you take the first step. THERE IS NO HOPE OF RECOVERY IF SHE SEES OR TALKS TO THE OM. NO HOPE."

Do you think an alcoholic can recover if he drinks occasionally and hangs out in the bar? Because that is what you are doing.

Don't take my word for it, take your OWN experience and listen to Dr Harley. The reason your marriage is not recovering and will NEVER RECOVER is because you haven't taken the FIRST STEP.

That is like a falling down drunk going to AA meetings and "working some of the steps." Won't work; nothing will work until he stops drinking. It is the BEST ADVICE anyone can give you because it explains why your marriage has never recovered.

vmmusa, did you listen to Dr Harley's radio clip I posted?

Wrong. Again. We read almost all the books (SAA, HNHN, LB, BRF, 5 Steps, The One, DTM�) We often read them out loud, together. Used all the questionnaires. Did the home study/program. Worked with the first licensed MB counselor Dr Harley himself personally trained. We did it all. All that was openly stated to be required at the time. And we acted on it. Let me be clear. We acted on it.

We didn�t do the seminar/weekend though. The weekend was never stated, 6 years ago, to be a requirement for success. The weekend is archetype mission creep. Didn�t used to be a requirement at all, but now Mel says if you don�t do the weekend you aren�t working the program. LOL. I like this. I would not call this bate and switch but the weekend is definitely textbook requirements creep.

However, I would be more than happy to attend the weekend. If I still cared. But, alas, I no longer care. I am fine the way things are. An arms length M keeps me safe. I have discovered IRL there is nothing in MB that could possibly make me feel safe enough to get close again. I simply will not do it. Unless perhaps if Dr H also performs lobotomies.

Like I keep saying, it is me.

PS: Re contact after DDay. Yes, about three years after DDay 2 of the VLTA and about the same amount of time after our starting the MB method OM called her out of the blue. My tripwires responded immediately. She talked to him for a short few minutes and that was it. So that is when I re-exposed in extremis, got him fired (he chose to retire early), his wife left him and took the kids and he had to look for work in Canada. He�s still there as far as I know. Mel, I posted all this a couple of years go. You even offered me kudos. You remember the one post about contact but you don�t remember the several posts describing my completely ruining his life afterwards? Weird! Want a link?

It's NG Analogy Time, boys and girls!

A patient has a gangrenous leg. The protocol says, "Clean the wound, spread sulfa drugs, apply antibiotics, stimulate blood supply by drug/physical regimen, but... (cont'd next page)".

The doctor follows the protocol, BUT NEVER TURNS THE PAGE! The line there continues, "... but if the limb fails to respond to treatment, and the infection continues its growth, consider the radical step of amputation to save the patient."

Aph, there will be the tiny group of marriages that fail after affairs, regardless of the program. (Think unendurable resentment and unrecoverable loss of trust in the cheating spouse.)

We didn't witness your efforts. If you honestly believe there was nothing more you could have done, and yet stayed in the "dead" marriage for your own reasons, then you are the outlier to the bell-curve of marriages.

I'm sorry for your wasted years in a loveless marriage, dude.

VMMUSA has detailed the ways he and FWW have NOT Followed the program. Explaining to him that he (and she) should do so is not invalidated by your history.

Why not write Dr. Harley and ask himself? Did you listen to the radio clip? Dr. H encourages people to question him.

Just wanted to mention that Dr Harley has not "licensed" any counselors other than his 2 children. There was no one else, other than his employee coaches, [Sandy and Kim] who passed his course.

HE did ATTEMPT to train some folks back in 2005-2006 <?> who could not pass his course because they injected their own ideas and changed up his program. They failed his course.

I think I know who you are talking about and she was NOT ever endorsed by Dr Harley because she couldn't pass his course. So you used someone who is not even endorsed by Harley and here you are blaming Marriage Builders instead of that "counselor."

As far as success goes, Harley has stated that when do it yourself doesn't work, you should avail yourself of his professional services. You didn't do that. A few are able to turn their marrriages around by doing it themselves, but I know I was not one of them. I had to go through the MB course in order to do it.

And maybe it is that your resentment is just too great to overcome. That would be a sad outcome, however, I would get [qualified] professional help before you come to that conclusion.

He should be writing that so called "MB counselor" and asking to see her "license." Dr Harley DID NOT endorse any counselors other than Steve Harley, Dr Jennifer Chalmers and his employee coaches.

Perfectly expressed.

Get over sounds so finished, like you will never think about it again. My grandparents,parents,and son have died. I think about them, I revisit, I live my changed life. I have worked hard to live the life I have and move forward without forgeting the joy. Infidelity is part of my life too. I give it it's due and live my life. I don't get over I go through and come out stronger, more in touch with me and others.

dan

I think, Mel, getting the facts straight would be a big help to us all.

Back then (7 or so years ago) she was indeed approved by Dr H. I don�t know what she espouses now, but at the time she was pure MB, all the time. Although, she eventually came to agree with me that in my case there were no missing ENs whatsoever. Well, none of mine were ever met much at all, but W�s ENs were completely met and they were met in the way she wanted them met. So, I violated MB theory (the theory at the time) by not having an affair and W violated MB theory (the theory at the time) by having one. This divergence of reality from theory started to call into question in my mind, and maybe hers, that some things in MB needed some clarifying.

So, unmet ENs were not the cause of this VLTA. (We now know pretty much what caused it and some of it is not, even now, ever mentioned as a reason for adultery by MB.) It is interesting to me to read here now that unmet ENs is not the definitive cause of adultery that they so definitely used to be back then. It used to be unmet ENs is where the buck stopped. Now I read it is a lack of boundaries about as much as I used to read unmet ENs as the active cause of adultery. So, things do indeed get tuned in MB. That is good science, actually.

Your arguments and accusations are like playing whack a mole. I�m tired. Have on all you wish�

eta: If there is anything about her (the councilor in question) that should have raised my suspicions it is that she herself is a former adulteress. Perhaps I should use her as just yet another FWS example that none of them whosoever can be trusted, or relied on or listened to in anything. Ever. For all eternity. That is as logical as any of the other complaints about her I have occasionally read on MB.

I agree we should get the facts straight. Dr Harley DID NOT endorse, approve, "license" or even SUPPORT any other counselors than Dr Chalmers or Steve Harley. Did she show you this "license?" Is there anywhere you can point to where Harley ever endorsed her? You can't because it is a false claim. He did, however, train a couple of people 7 years ago who COULD NOT PASS HIS COURSE. They flunked his course.

And apparently she flunked with you because she did not understand the program and obviously couldn't help you. Other clients of hers were holdingontoit and 2Long, who also did not recover their own marriages.

Compare them to the recovered marriages on this board, ie: mine, MrandMrsW, SMB and Papabear, armymama come to mind, among many others. What do they have in common? We went through the MB course under the tutelage of Dr Harley and a REAL MB coach.


The "MB Theory" is that some affairs can happen due to unmet needs. So your situation is not a "violation" at all. My own husbands affair did not happen due to unmet needs and we are in a fully recovered marriage today. Harley has been advising against opposite sex friendships for YEARS so the issue of boundaries is one that has been always been around. It is just discussed more on the board now because MARRIAGE BUILDERS is discussed now. [versus every other dog and cat program and personal "wisdom" under the sun]

Aphelion, I say this with kindness and concern, PLEASE do yourself a favor and sign up for the MB course. Go with a qualified program under a qualified counselor. If your wife is truly as proactive as you claim, she should agree to do it because she has much to gain. You don't have to settle and you don't have to live like that.

Affairs happen for many reasons. To say that one thing ore one solution will solve the problem is short sighted. I was reading "after the affair" again. Every one keeps telling me that if my W has even one run in with the OM our marriage wont work. But that's not what the book says, it depends on the cheating spouse and if they have recommitted to the marriage.
Now reading many posts, it sounds like the programs protocol has evolved, and that is to be expected, but every marriage, wife, husband is different and a one size fits all can never work for everyone. This philosophy holds true in many cases.

...if my W has even one run in with the OM our marriage wont work. But...it depends on the cheating spouse...

Do you realize that five out of every six people that play "Russian Roulette" would get away scot-free?

Sucks to be the sixth guy, however!