Add to that confusion: translations from Hebrew and Aramaic to English, etc. and there is another venue for error.<P>One thing is quite clear though, if either party breaks the vows of marriage by going outside and involving another (sexual sin) that is biblical grounds for divorce. Since I went outside of my marriage, then my H has a biblical right to divorce me. <P>I also don't think being a Christian means that you should allow your spouse to continue in an affair. I'm sure God would not condone such actions.

Do you, as the betrayer, believe YOU have the right to divorce since it's adultery we're talking about? Do you get the meaning from the Bible that only the injured party has the right to divorce .... not the betrayer?<P>

I would imagine (from a biblical aspect) that the betrayed has this right, since they didn't go outside their marriage. I was reading a Christian article recently:<BR> <A HREF="http://www.christianinconnect.com/divorce.htm" TARGET=_blank>http://www.christianinconnect.com/divorce.htm</A> <P>But I truly believe that until you address those issues (depression) that anywhere you're at will be an unhappy place. I was there too (during the affair) and sought help, and am much better now. I think that's the first step, getting yourself well.

Haven't been here for a while, but thought I'd pop in and whooooaaa, did I run into a doozy of a thread!!! I have to ask a question, what in the world is "Biblical right?" To me it sounds like some of us are forgetting (or maybe missing the point) that, as Christians, we don't <I>worship</I> the bible....... we worship God the Father, his son our Lord Jesus Christ, and the Holy Spirit. Maya, we've had these conversations before. There are <I>many</I> practices in the bible that we don't live our daily lives according to. The way many of us eat, the way we dress, the way we make money, etc, etc, could all be looked at as not adhering to the biblical standards. <P>So, my point is, we need to remain focused on the fact that Jesus loves us and died for our sins. Whoever believes in this and accepts Jesus Christ as his/her personal saviour will receive everlasting life in his kingdom of heaven. Period. Maya and others, <B>that's</B> what it takes to get to heaven. Will we make mistakes along the way? Absolutely! Will we sin along the way? Absolutely! Will we do things that we feel go against <I>biblical standards</I>? Absolutely! Does this mean we will not go to heaven? <B>NO!</B> Because God already knows we will do these things and make these mistakes. He already knows that we are sinners by nature and none of us can be perfect. All we can do is try to do as Jesus. We will always fall short of this, but we still keep trying.<P>Maya, if you divorce your H you will not go to hell. You need to keep repeating that to yourself. Over and over. And then maybe you can focus on staying with him because you want to be there, rather than because you are <I>in bondage</I>. In observation, I think this is a big part of the problem. You feel chained, imprisoned. How can anyone be happy when they feel that way.<P>Girl, you've really got to change your thinking. It's eating you up alive.

Maya,<BR>I know you are looking for a loophole to get out. Fair enough if you were emotionally in a place to make that decision.<P>You know what concerns me? Your statement that you feel that your daughters are clinging to you and that it is sufficating and you wish they would go to your H.<P>Did you always feel this way?<P>None of us knows the real dynamics of your relationship with your H, but your feelings of helplessness with your daughters really makes me think you are big time depressed, and at least at this point in time, needs to be addressed.<P>Maybe you wouldn't have to deal with as much if you were out on your own and that's why you crave it so much, but if depression is the root of your despair, then just getting out is not the answer.<P>Put aside long term decisions and fight your present emotional condition as hard as you would a lump in your breast.<P>------------------<BR>Faith, Hope, Love Remain,<BR>but the greatest of these is Love.<BR>1 Corinthians 13:13

Wowza! Did I start a thread or what?<P>Maya, I want to say that I really respect you in this situation. I can almost hear the frustration in your posts, but you're still here (and in the marriage). Good. Discussing this will help you get through it. It would be far too easy to fold your arms and walk away with a big, "oh, poo on you, I'm outa here."<P>Hang on girl! (no disrespect intended)<P>------------------<BR>Prayers & God Bless!<BR>Chris<BR>For relationship info check out <A HREF="http://www.pcisys.net/~chriscal1/resources.html" TARGET=_blank>www.pcisys.net/~chriscal1/resources.html</A>

FHL, the girls .... what I meant is that they are with ME lots more than with their dad. He works alot of hours, etc. so when he's home I would THINK they'd like to spend time with HIM ... but they gravitate to me. Female? Possibly. I think I listen better to them, and I think they hesitate to talk to H because of the disertation he tends to go into when discussing stuff.<P>This is probably the BIGGEST reason I don't communicate with him. I throw something out there for discussion and 30 minutes later he closes his paragraph. He's a rambler ... and he's opinionated so the girls probably don't want a lecture on how they're feeling.<P>The female psyche still baffles him I think (most men in fact). He doesn't understand crying for no reason ... and therefore isn't the most patient in the world when it comes to that stuff. It's one of the problems we had ... he's better with me, but not better with the girls. I see him doing the same things to them ... and it will shut them off from him.<P>I'm the logical parent to go to.<P>Someone mentioned I might be manic ... yup, I do believe that. I have wild mood swings ... way up one day .... back in the pits the next day.<P>I've <gulp> rescheduled the counselors appt. It's not till Dec. 15 but they are going to call if they get cancelations ... please pray that I keep this one. I'm so very tired of the struggle. I know I need help ... I don't know what's keeping me from DOING something about it.

New Woman ... how'd ya know I was back here? LOL<P>Thanks for chiming in. Yes, it's the same ol' thing dogging me ... you make so much sense ... why can't I grasp it?<P>Why can't I rest in His Grace. I understand it, but cannot accept such a wonderful FREE gift, ya know? I just hate myself so much that I can't accept such an amazing act of love .... just like H's love I guess.

Hi Maya,<P>It's me who called you "manic". I think it's excellent that you start going to a counselor, but I wouldn't wait for Dec 15. I would find someone who can take you by next Friday. Or beg your current one to move you up in the schedule. <P>And talk to your medical doctor about your current antidepressant regimin---it may need to be switched.

Maya,<P>Here is an extremely good book on "how to communicate." If you both follow it, he won't be giving you "dissertations". Also, it has other stuff in it along the MB path. I found it extremely enlightening (can't say it has been too useful yet )<BR><B>We Can Work It Out : How to Solve Conflicts, Save Your Marriage, and Strengthen Your Love for Each</B> Other <A HREF="http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/0399521372/o/qid%3D932279191/sr%3D8-1/002-3013706-7985036" TARGET=_blank>http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/0399521372/o/qid%3D932279191/sr%3D8-1/002-3013706-7985036</A> <P>------------------<BR>Prayers & God Bless!<BR>Chris<BR>For relationship info check out <A HREF="http://www.pcisys.net/~chriscal1/resources.html" TARGET=_blank>www.pcisys.net/~chriscal1/resources.html</A>

Won't the counselor be pleased when I march in there with my self-diagonsis? LOL<BR>I'm sure they just LOVE that!<P>Thank you all so much for your care about my situation. It baffles me how you can CARE so much for someone you don't know at all ... well, that's not true ... you all probably know me better than my friends because I've unloaded on you all big time ... and with those I am in direct contact with I've completely shut out.<P>But thanks for the caring and the shaking (Whodat) and the stinking (Whodat). I know you guys are right. I know I need help. I know it I know it I know it. I just gotta get to the dang counselor's office. <P>Who's gonna take me there? Show of hands please.<p>[This message has been edited by Maya (edited November 10, 1999).]

Maya, <P>Being legalistic will not get you to heaven. <BR>James 2:10<BR>"For whosoever shall keep the whole law, and yet offend in one [point], he is guilty of all."<P>God knows we can not follow every law that is written. That is why He sent Jesus to be our sacrificial lamb. We <B>all</B> fall short to the glory of God. To God, one sin is not worse than another, it is all wrong in His eyes. Following the law with malice in your heart is as much a sin as breaking the law itself. If your looking for a way out of your marriage to keep the law, you will eventually find one Maya. But, I don't think that is what you want.<P>God has forgiven you for this Maya. I think your husband has forgiven you. I'm not sure you have forgiven yourself. <P>I believe you are a Christian Maya. But, I don't believe you are giving the Holy Spirit that is in you free reign to do His will. I think you are trying to punish yourself and I'm not sure you can punish yourself enough for what you think you've done. This entire experience has put you into a severe depression. <P>Get help for the depression first, and then I think your marriage will start to heal. Your husband needs to understand the level of depression you are experiencing as well so that he knows what he should do and not do to help you through this.<P>SHA

Maya,<BR>I pray you will too. Forgive my naivity, but can a couselor give you the help you need for depression? Don't you need an evaluation from a medical doctor?<P>Part of the reason you are reluctant to get help is because you are depressed or manic or whatever. Knowing that, and seeking help out anyway, is what you need to do.<P>You are painting a picture of a H that is different that I would have imagined from other posts. Maybe my memory is not accurate, but it does not sound like your H really practices unconditional love at all.<P>One thing I love about my H is he believes I have every right to my own opinion and supports (in his own way) any decision I make. Of course he expects I do the same for him and that can be tough. I like the one way streets better some days.<P>The "I think...therefore it is....and if it isn't, it should be" types drive me nuts.<P>Teens need to be taught to think for themselves. Helping them make decisions congruent to their value system is great. Limiting actions by setting rules that are in their best interest is providing healty stucture. But endless sermons just do not work. No wonder they seek you out.<P>Get help, Maya...then take action.<P>------------------<BR>Faith, Hope, Love Remain,<BR>but the greatest of these is Love.<BR>1 Corinthians 13:13

Maya,<P>I'd be happy to take you to your counselors. But perhaps a more appropriate choice would be your husband. Regardless, I'm glad that you're going to consider it.<P>

Thanks, SHA.<P>How do I let the Holy Spirit have free reign in my life? HOW do I relinquish the control? (yes, I am a control freak)<BR>

My H really has done a 180 with his attitude towards me. Honest. He's lots better than he used to be. He tries hard. He's given God control of everything ... and he's at peace with the situation. He firmly believes that God will take care of it all.<P>So do I do the same? Just sit back and watch? Is that how you let the Holy Spirit reign over your life?<P>That's what kept me from a counselor for sooooo long. I rationalized that God can take care of this, I'll just sit back .... and be miserable until He does.<P>And now I'm over the edge.<P>K, thanks for the offer to take me to the doctor. Just kiddin' ... but I don't want H to take me either. I'm much happier doing stuff alone.<P>I'm guessing a counselor has the power to prescribe anti-deps also. The first two last fall wanted to medicate me and I refused. I went to my med. dr. and he gave me the Celexa sugar pills that are doing nothing. I was just gonna tell the counselor and she could up the doseage or change the brand if she wanted to.<BR>

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR> But thanks for the caring and the shaking (Whodat) and the stinking (Whodat).<HR></BLOCKQUOTE><P>That would be <B>stinging</B> Maya, although I imagine there are some who would agree with your first analysis... <P>I’m glad you’re at least talking now. Glad I backed off yesterday after you got on a roll. I think you just needed a nudge to get started. <P>Ya gots amazing potential, Maya... everyone here can see it but you. I’m with K... move up the appointment, or you’ll have too much time to think up reasons NOT to go.<BR><P>------------------<BR>Resentment is like taking poison and waiting for the other person to die

Maya, <P>I have a couple of suggestions for you.<P>1.) Get a book called "Raising Lambs Among Wolves" by Mark Bubeck. Chapter 10 identifies the Seven Steps to Spiritual Freedom. This is the first step in giving the Holy Spirit free reign. The book priamrily covers how to guard our children from the powers of evil, but that can't be done when there are marriage problems. So, marriage is also a major theme in the book. <P>2.) You and your husband should be praying together, not spearately, for marriage healing. It looks like your husband has peace. You certainly don't have peace and your marriage doesn't have peace. When a husband and wife are on their knees together praying for their marraige to heal, God will intervene. That book will also give you assistance in how to pray for your marriage.<P>God Bless you Maya. For those who seek His righteousness, He <B>will</B> make Himself known.<P>SHA

Frankly I think our dear Maya is important enough to go to a Dr. for a full physical and evaluation.<P>Just some counselor giving her something may not be the right approach in this particular situation. We want the best for her.<P>It is good your H has made changes, that shows flexibility. <P>I am not going to minister to you spirtually because I am not as good at it as many are here and I think for you to take ownership of any idea, you need to take it evaluate it in your own situation and want to own it. You feel trapped enough.<P>I will say one thing, though. Besides the Depression that is so #1 that everything pales in comparison, I think the root of your dilema is this.<P>For whatever the reason (and I think depression may be a BIG part) you want out. However, wanting out of your marriage is inconsistant with your value system.<P>So in order to leave, you either need to change or ignore your value system. In your case, Maya, I think this is unlikely. Your beliefs are strong and based on your basic values. Living contrary to your basic values will not bring you happiness or peace. You seek relief from your pain, but you need to seek relief that is keeping with whatever you personally believe. <P>So you know what you want, but you don't want to want it, yet you want it anyway....and it is frying your brain, basically. It would mine. Of course you can say this is a spiritual problem, it is in part, but I don't think just standing by and giving it up to God is all you need to do. That's where getting help and actively participating in your life comes in. God will bless your efforts.<P>So there are no easy answers, but I would bet just lifting the clouds of depression would help.<P>It may be it is not the actual marriage or your H that is the root of the problem, but how your marriage makes you feel. If you feel repressed, that is something both you and your H can work on, even in the context your personal religious beliefs dictate.<P>Just please please get the tools you need to do the job! <P>I have a great deal of admiration for your fortitude!!<P>------------------<BR>Faith, Hope, Love Remain,<BR>but the greatest of these is Love.<BR>1 Corinthians 13:13

Maya:<P>I can't offer any more advice that anyone else here hasn't already given you. Add me to the list of people who agree with K and Whodat that you get to counselor ASAP.<P>I can't speak for the others here, but I can tell you that <I><B>I</I></B> care about your health and well-being (mental & physical). I think getting help with the depression is of paramount importance. I hate to see you so down. <P>Also, being the legally trained mind that I am, I couldn't help but ask you to clarify something for me. I will agree that God hates divorce. I will agree that divorce (except for the unrepentant adultery) is probably a sin. Hypothetically speaking, if you were to divorce your H, then you would be committing a sin, correct? If so, wouldn't God forgive you of that sin if you were truly repentant for committing it? It's kind of like the affair in a way, isn't it? You knew it was wrong, but you did it anyway. God has forgiven you because you are truly sorry for having done it. By analogy, if you get this divorce, and later come to truly regret having committed that sin, won't God forgive you for it?<P>Or, are you concerned that if you get the divorce and are happy with it, that you won't be repentant,and therefore will not have God's forgiveness? (that just occurred to me).<P>I don't ask this to be a thorn in your side, I am trying to understand your view on the issue of divine forgiveness for sins. I find this to be a truly fascinating thread. If any other Christians want to address this, please feel free to do so.<P>Hang in there, Maya! I really hope things improve for you, however you decide to resolve your issues.<P>------------------<BR>/// Lone Star * ///<P><BR>