The Not-So-Good News:

H had four AOs this week, one which got physical. He beat on the bank window after the machine ate my ATM card, then kicked and punched the ATM machine in anger. I was afraid and embarrassed. He also AO'd at my son for not getting ready, AO'd about not having a bath towel (my daughter used it), and AO'd when he took a wrong turn on the road.

He doesn't think his AO's are a big deal. The children frustrate him and he demands to know the consequences for their behavior. Or something inconvenient happens and he falls apart emotionally. I do my best to guide the children, and to consider my H's feelings. But the world is not a peachy-perfect place and frustrating things just happen sometimes! AOs don't solve anything, and they are doing quite a bit of damage.

So today I'm a little more withdrawn...less willing to meet his ENs. I'm a bit pensive, wondering if this is someone I want to share my life with. I know I should stay focused on my responsibilities in the relationship. But setbacks like this really make me feel ambivalent about the whole thing.

What does Steve say about his AOs? Has he told Steve that he does not see them as a big deal?

Or is that your DJ?

What do you do when he AOs?

Agree. Also with talking to Steve about it have you or your H read lovebusters? This is a must.

I would also have him listen to these radio clips from Dr. Harley on Anger Mgmt Anger Mgmt 101

CWMI & BrainHurts, thanks for the Qs.

We met with Steve this morning. The plan is that my H has to come up with a plan to eliminate AOs. They talked for quite a while one-on-one...I think I've figured out that when we do one-on-one's with Steve, it means we aren't doing so well & he needs to separate us. (Like MB101?)

He said the balance is not reinforcing H's abusive behavior while also not setting him up for failure (i.e. not intentionally doing things that I know frustrate my H - which I don't do. In fact I try to order life so it won't be frustrating!)

I asked Steve what I should do. He said just stay calm. Leaving is an option if I sense that we're in real danger, but correcting him or trying to 'coach' him out of it will not be wise. He said I could gently mention it at a later time if I sense that he's ok to hear feedback.

Our next session is Thursday, so I'm glad we don't have long to wait. Will look forward to hearing the next steps.

During an AO: Steve also said I could make it clear - calmly - that the AO is unacceptable behavior to me.

(forgot that part til now)

Zhamila, I'm glad you're working on this. The AOs are a tough thing to battle, but you're in good hands! And it's so worth it to free yourself and your kids from all that.

Zhamila,

I used to pull these kinds of stunts. I thought it was funny and entertaining to blow up at a machine, like a gas pump or a self-service grocery counter. I thought it was great that my anger was directed at machines, not at people.

What I didn't know was that I was reinforcing the habit of anger, making myself a more naturally angry person. And scaring the crud out of my wife.

This stuff has got to be GONE FAST. If your husband were not talking to Steve H. about a plan to stop it, I would be saying that we all need to talk with you about how to get you out of there. Even if he makes a plan, there will be mistakes in following it, and mistakes can be devastating emotionally and physically for you and your family.

Are you prepared to call the police if your husband's angry outbursts do not stop? I would say the angry outbursts you are describing rise to the level of needing a call to the cops.

Zhamila, I feel very VERY confident that Steve told you to not intentionally do things that frustrate your H because you DO. So please look closely at that and don't brush it aside as a non-factor. I worked with Steve, too, and he does not spend one minute saying something that means nothing.

I am not implying that you are responsible for his AOs. That is all on him. My H continued to frustrate me long after I stopped being a destructive, screaming idiot. Your H may not be at the point yet where he decides to not be that person anymore. Your calmness in the face of his anger will help him get there, though, because hopefully, eventually, he will recognize that it is him creating an ugly, unpleasant environment.

Thanks, for the encouragement, NewEveryDay. It will be good to be free of this fear.

Markos, thanks for your insight. I'm looking forward to seeing the plan and watching it come to life. I am worried about mistakes, as you said, because I can feel myself withdrawing. It's hard to stay motivated to do my part when I feel ambivalent about the relationship in general. But I make myself do the things on my checklist even when I don't feel like it. I will keep plugging away.

CWMI, thanks for your thoughts, you are right Steve wouldn't waste time talking about something irrelevant. His comments were in response to my question about how I can minimize frustrating circumstances without reinforcing the AOs (i.e. walking on eggshells, running around trying to placate an angry person). I will continue to watch my behavior and make sure I'm keeping it clean.

Thank you everyone. We'll have an update in the next day or so when we meet with Steve again.

You did not answer my question:

Markos - good question. I am prepared to call the police if his angry outbursts continue, but I don't think they will.

He's only had physical AOs 3 or 4 times in our marriage, so it's pretty unusual. He had a few in his last marriage and the police were called. My impression was that they were under extenuating circumstances (one was that he found his wife's affair partner in the house & chased him and broke his windshield with a bat). I guess I figured that anyone would be pretty upset in that situation, so it didn't concern me too much when I found out - perhaps it should have concerned me more?

But yes, if a serious physical AO occurred again, I would call. I'm not sure if the ATM beating was serious enough..am I being too soft on this?

Did your wife call the police on you? How serious was the AO to have her call?

Destruction of property is serious enough for a call.

She should have!

Yes.

There is a reason you are feeling withdrawn. Your emotions are trying to protect you -- anytime he has an AO, he is insane, and you are in danger. Men who have no history of violence have gone crazy in an AO and have killed or maimed their wives. And your husband has been physical 3 or 4 times?

That's not normal. It's not safe.

Do you understand that when he has an AO, he is temporarily insane? He has no control over himself. Markos cannot even remember half the things he did or said during his AOs, things that were very traumatic to me. Your husband very likely doesn't realize how severe AOs are because he's insane, and it clouds his memory.

Take a no tolerance stance on AOs. You were in danger when he went for the ATM. Don't tolerate that again.

OK Prisca, I'll take it seriously. It's good to have your and Markos insight - you'd been there!

My H doesn't think the ATM incident was a big deal (he told me this) - and that makes me think he doesn't remember it exactly the way I do.

Steve listened to the AO plan this morning - it went well. My H says he's going to count to 10, ask me for help, then thank me for helping. Steve was satisfied with the plan, and said we will likely tweak the plan over time to see what works.

Phew, what a cruddy day. We are flat-lining again.

I recorded one of our conversations. I expected to hear myself being unreasonable and ugly (because I was really upset at times), but was surprised at how measured and careful I was. H was defensive and disrespectful, and refused to talk about a plan for improvement...not pleasant.

H isn't sure he cares anymore. Again, his main problem is that I complain. He calls my complaints 'disrespectful judgments' and me 'being negative.' Like when I say, "I'm not happy, I'd like to figure out a plan to eliminate these LBs," he says it's disrespectful.

I am proud of my behavior. I am fed up with his.

Most of all, I am sad.

Did he know it was being recorded?

I ask because if one person knows and the other doesn't, the knowing one is measured and careful because taa-daa! They know they are being recorded.

No, I told him afterward...good point CWMI.

I got the idea from another poster who said they let their abusive H hear a recorded altercation and it made him realize how bad his AOs really were. I thought I'd try it to see if it would help us eliminate AOs & abuse, since he doesn't remember what he's really like.

I told him I'll tell him from now on if I'm recording. He told me I don't have his 'permission' to ever record him, and that it's 'illegal' to record him unless he gives 'permission.' I told him I want evidence of what our relationship is really like - that set him off. He thought I meant, "go to court evidence." I explained that no, it's just evidence for us - to help understand what's really happening so we can fix it.

I feel the need to protect myself. He's not protecting me from himself, so I need to do something.

We encourage people to use VARs and exposure for affairs, that 'snooping' is good. Why not use VARs to eliminate AOs and abuse? What's the difference?

This is probably one of those things Steve was talking about when he said for you to not set your H up for failure. I think you are lying about expecting to hear yourself being unreasonable; lying to yourself. I think that because if you had recorded in order to hear yourself, you would not have told your husband how HE sounded. You would have said to yourself, wow, I am doing better than I thought! Or you would have been listening to yourself more critically and come here with comments of how you could still use some work on this or that, but were proud of how you handled this other thing.

I think, if you think hard, that you know the difference between snooping in an affair and recording someone to eliminate AOs. But I will simplify that for you: in affairs, the BS isn't getting the truth from the WS. VACs are used to covertly hear conversations, keyloggers are used to gain access to electronic communication, and none of this is done to prove to the WS what they are doing. The WS knows what they are doing. And they know it is wrong, hense the secrecy. The snooping is done to prove to the BS what is going on in their own life. Sometimes we advocate carry VACs around after exposure if there appears to be a danger of a WS (usually WWs) attempting to file a false domestic violence charge.

Secretly recording AOs, however, is to prove what? Your H knows he AOs, he has been discussing this problem with Steve. You know he AOs, because you witness it personally. So what good is it to do something like this covertly? Both parties already know what is going on. Can you admit that you did it just to show your H how horrible he is? Do you think that is part of MB?

I was going to do the same thing, and for exactly that reason: to prove to my H how awful he was. Some good people here talked me out of it. Look, if you are going to deviate from the advice of Steve Harley, will you please come here first and vet it through us? We can, and want to, help you see any holes in your plan, help you get what you want in a non-destructive manner, and want to cheer you on when you come up with something brilliant (and possibly steal it for ourselves).

I thought my H was the most self-oblivious person on the planet, and if HE could learn to recognize his own AOs, and stop himself when he is the only screaming idiot in the room, your H can do this, too. "Gotcha!" is NOT the game plan you want to use, though, if your intent is to help him get there. Like Markos and Prisca said, anger makes one insane. Your only job here with his AOs is to say, "Stop," and then remove yourself.

Also, now, you are working with Steve, so leave your relationship conversations there. There is no reason why you and your husband should be doing any relationship talk right now other than something Steve has assigned you.

Talk about good stuff. Talk about crazy stuff. Talk about the Kardashians or American Idol or whether or not you want to put a bed of hostas in the backyard...anything else. Talk about your husband's prowess or your recent waxing, talk about your grandmother's gout or them Yankees or NASCAR or ice road truckers or where to go on vacation, debate salt water v chlorinated pools, just don't talk relationship talk!