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First of all, I am so grateful and thankful that I found this website and that all of you have posted your stories, struggles, trials, tribulations, hopes and help. I've been reading a lot on this site and have gotten to the point where I need to post my own "story".

So. Here goes.

My FWH (I hope I get all these acronyms correct), three children (D10, S7, D5) and I moved to China in August, 2011. We moved here due to FWH's job. This is our third move and our first overseas move. Our children were mostly looking forward to it--as was I, since I thought it would be a good way to bring my FWH and I closer. Our marriage was not the greatest and we'd started back into MC. FWH blamed it on my depression (I was gaslighted). At the time of the move, I was unaware of the A. FWH and OW (who was my so-called best friend, neighbor and confidante) had been carrying on an EA and a SA since February, 2011.

I'd known that things were not right at home. I suffer from clinical depression and had recently come out to my husband as bisexual. I had been very open and honest with him about these feelings and he supported me to the point of suggesting that I explore that side of my sexuality so it doesn't get pent up. This was prior to the A, by the way. He claimed that it wasn't a threat to him for me to be with another woman, but it was to be with another man...

Long story longer, I ended up sleeping with "BF/OW" on and off, with FWH's knowledge and approval. We felt this was a safe environment to experiment and see if it would fit the bill. It did not. BF/OW kept suggesting that it would be more fun to "involve a man". so it would seem "right" to her. FWH and I had discussed involving another woman in our relationship (red flag, I know), so we involved her. We did this a number of times and I finally put a stop to it. I couldn't deal anymore. For me, it wasn't about the act, it was about feelings. Apparently, they could deal and they continued to deal, without me knowing...

I ended up falling in love with another woman (no SF), who claimed that she was not "that sort" of person (I don't believe her), yet we remained friends. I ended up cutting ties with her later on due to my strong feelings for her. I was still in love with my FWH yet felt love for this woman. Still do, in fact.

Fast-forward to October, 2011, here in China. FWH goes out of town. When he returns, he says he has a surprise for me. It's the BF/OW in my living room--in China! I was so excited that I burst into tears. We'd talked daily, even when I moved. She and I shared EVERYTHING. She knew my qualms about my marriage and we went on girls trips together, etc. Heck, we even slept together and didn't let it get "weird" or anything. Our children were dear friends and she and her hubby were the guardians to our kids in our will. We vacationed together. Everything.

One night while she was in China, the three of us were on our patio, having drinks and talking. FWH said that he was going inside to get a drink and asked if any of us would like one. We replied, "No." Not a minute later, BF/OW pops up and says, "I'm going inside to get a drink." My gut churned. Thought that was odd, but thought I was being paranoid. Kept feeling gut. Thought, "WTF, I'm going to go around front and peek in the kitchen window and spy on them. That will ease my mind." Well, when I got to the kitchen window, OW (no longer BF at this point) was with FWH, groping one another and leaning on his shoulder.

I banged my hand on the window, ran around back and stormed into the house, yelling, "Get a room!" They laughed at me. They actually laughed. I yelled, "I saw you!" They tried to cover it up, saying they'd just made one mistake. I could tell it wasn't their first. I said, "No. You've made more than one. I can tell." Okay, so I yelled it. I ran back outside, threw the candles on the patio so they shattered and decided to throw the OW and FWH out of the house.

I walked in, with FWH trying to "calm me down" while I went to the guest room, shoved all of her stuff in her suitcase, turned around to tell FWH to shut the heck up, beat up on him a few seconds and demanded that he leave. I carried her suitcase upstairs, opened the front door and threw it on the front porch. I then walked into the kitchen, where she was standing, texting whomever could save her, and screamed, "Get the F out of my HOUSE!" I used the actual word, by the way. She never said one word to me. Hasn't since. FWH wouldn't leave the house, but stayed in the basement guest room until I allowed him back to our room. He comforted me and wrote down all the reasons he was sorry (4+ pages, if memory serves me correctly), said that he was selfish and it was all fantasy and that he would do whatever it takes to keep our marriage together. Said he had an epiphany of sorts--that I was his one and only.

I also found out that about four of our friends/neighbors knew about the A. No longer friends or neighbors, needless to say.

FWH and OW "did it" in our house when my kids and I were sleeping. They did it when we were on vacation together. She bought him an engraved pocket watch. He'd bought her a blouse "just because" when he was out. They used to have lunch together. They'd wait for me to go to sleep and then sneak around to each others' houses. They made plans. They'd been at a local hotel two nights before! I comforted her when she was a crying mess the night before. I thought it was about missing me.

All the crying she did prior to our departure was not about me. All the crying I did was about her. I was so depressed about leaving that I had to ramp up my AD meds. I couldn't imagine leaving my BF! When we got to China, I was still depressed and FWH was treating me unkindly and not being supportive. Language barrier, new country, new everything. Again, I said, "Something is WRONG!" He asked, "Well, what should we do?" Once again, I suggested marriage counseling. We didn't do it.

OW's spouse blames the A on me--says that I invited OW into our bedroom and that I am an idiot for thinking that it wouldn't lead to this. I admitted my wayward behavior and apologized for being deceitful toward him. In fact, I told him about me and OW because I knew that OW wouldn't. I'm not saying that I didn't contribute to the mess, that's for sure, but I, in no way whatsoever, had anything to do with FWH's and OW's A. That's just malarky (nice word for a bad one).

We still have our house in the states (across the street from OW's), but we haven't been back. The kids ask why. We're about to rent it out; have movers come and pack it up and put everything in storage. It triggered lots of emotions.

On top of all of the emotional baggage, I just had an endoscopy and colonoscopy today after having months of GI issues. Turns out I have five (yes, 5) peptic ulcers. Yay. Also have a pinched nerve in my neck, which is causing severe pain. Oh--and found out I have an ovarian cyst, which might be functional, but I won't find out for another week. This is China.

I am so lost and sad and still very angry. My one friend that I would lean on and go to is dead to me. I'm mourning the loss of that so-called friendship and the safety net of our marriage, even though it was rocky. We are in MC and both in IC and I've changed AD meds with little luck. We've also found a good church here and we've been able to meet with the pastor on a few occasions, which has been helpful.

I'm just so tired of trying to be a good mother, good wife, good expat and good Christian that I just want to screw it all and run away. My head is barely above water. I can hardly enjoy our time here because I feel so exhausted.

FWH has cut all ties with OW and has given me all passwords to everything he has. He's been trying to court me again, which is good, but I'm wondering if he's staying because it's the "right" thing to do; that it's because he got caught. SF was big at first because I had something to prove. Now, it's non-existent because of my health and triggers. Since I've actually seen them do it, in person, I know exactly what it looks like.

With the kids being friends with OW's kids, I get triggers on a daily basis. Kids don't know anything. Just that Mom had a big fight with OW and that we are not friends anymore (hence the yelling the night I kicked her out of the house). They send the other kids mail and emails. They received a packet of letters from the states from them, yet I know it's OW's passive-aggressive way to disguise her evil ways with so-called "good". I know her all too well. So much betrayal and manipulation on so many levels...

For now, that's it. We've printed off the questionaires and would like to get the books, but it's difficult being in China. We're heading to the states mid-June, so maybe we'll pick them up then. Not going to our house. Going to family's homes in a different state!

Thanks, all!

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Wow, quite a story.

You are both active waywards. Your post also minimizes your adultery and focuses on his. You've both done terribly wrong.

I would recommend you seek the Harley's advice directly, as it is such a convoluted situation. You will get more expert advice shortly.

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That is a very confusing story.

You are both waywards. In an open marriage. And you're mad and jealous because your spouse is having sex with the same person you want to.

I have no idea what to tell you- other than call the radio show or the counseling center and ask for help, because I don't think any of us have a clue as to what to tell you, other than " holy lack of any kind of boundaries, batman".


Thanks for all the support along the way.
I wish you all well. I'm outta here.
Peace.
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I am confused .. your in an open marriage .. and it was OK for you to "sleep" with OW but not your hubby? This makes no sense ...

You got a LONG bumpy road to recover this ... I dont even know where to begin to give you advice. Hopefully someone will be able to help you.

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You both have committed adultery...just because your husband initially gave you 'permission' to have lesbian sexual relationships...it doesn't make it right and it is still adultery and SIN. You chose to be married...so bi-curious feelings or not is not an excuse.

You can see how both your actions created the predicament in which you now find yourself. All contact with the OW as well as the other woman you say you are still in love with must end. You should never see them again.

This will take a lot of work on both your parts to rebuild your marital relationship. Trust on both sides has been severely broken. I suggest, as others have, that you invest in some sessions with the MB counseling center. It will be much more effective than what you can get elsewhere. You might also order the MB home study course to work through together.

Aside from your adultery it sounds like you have TMS. You have overt anger but your physical pain may be because you also have unconscious RAGE. Read 'The MindBody Prescription-Healing the Body Healing the Pain" by Dr John Sarno.


Married 1976
Me:BS
Him:FWS
MB Weekend March 2003
2 S's: '77 & '80, 1 D: '82
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I guess I will call the show or get personal coaching. If any of you think you're telling me things I don't already know, then you are mistaken. I am broken and need support. I never said that I was better or free from sin or guilt. I'm posting what is heavy on my heart. I thought this was a good place to write it. Thank you for your advice about calling the show.

God is my judge. Not anyone else. He has forgiven me and my husband. We need help moving forward. This forum is obviously not the place for guidance.

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Originally Posted By: chinagirl

God is my judge. Not anyone else. He has forgiven me and my husband. We need help moving forward. This forum is obviously not the place for guidance.


CG, others here can judge right from wrong, as they should. It was a lack of judgement on your part that led to your actions. Not judging is not a virtue, but a serious liability that leads to stupid, destructive behavior, as you have learned first hand. And if you already know and accept these things, then you wouldn't have a problem with others saying it. You would just agree without getting so defensive.

Folks here can help you, but you have to be willing to face the truth about your behavior. They are not going to mince words for you.


"It is not the critic who counts; not the man who points out how the strong man stumbles, or where the doer of deeds could have done them better. The credit belongs to the man who is actually in the arena.." Theodore Roosevelt

Exposure 101


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I am not religious, CG, so I cannot tell you your religion says about your behavior.

I can tell you- as an adult with healthy boundaries and positive understanding of commitment that you have disrespected the marital contract.

Both of you.

And you did not seem- at least in your opening post- to acknowledge what was quite clearly the real issue.

all of us told you where to find help. I am not sure how that is not giving you guidance.

We can ( and did) tell you where to find help- but we cannot wave a magic wand and fix this.


Thanks for all the support along the way.
I wish you all well. I'm outta here.
Peace.
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And I agree with ML. I am grateful for my ability to judge, and see no honor in claiming to be judgment free.

We use judgment every single day. You're judging us as unreasonable right this very minute.

So don't come on here, be offended because we can see your game. That's good for you. If you cannot fool us- we can help you. You need us far more than we need you.


Thanks for all the support along the way.
I wish you all well. I'm outta here.
Peace.
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Quote:
God is my judge. Not anyone else. He has forgiven me and my husband. We need help moving forward. This forum is obviously not the place for guidance.
So, what's your goal in being here? Are you blogging, or what?


D-Day 2-10-2009
Fully Recovered and Better Than Ever!
Thank you Marriage Builders!

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Originally Posted By: chinagirl
God is my judge. Not anyone else. He has forgiven me and my husband. We need help moving forward. This forum is obviously not the place for guidance.


China, this is one of the big lies that has been spread among the church for years. If you are a Christian, then it is your DUTY to judge my actions. We're not condemning YOU, we're condemning what you DID. You know that scripture about "Judge not lest you be judged?" it's not saying NOT to judge, it's saying make sure your own life is in order before you judge.

Marriage Builders is the PERFECT place to get help for your marriage, especially one like yours but the first step is realizing where you've gone wrong, and that was giving each other permission to commit adultery. If you have repented and TURNED way fom your sin, then good!

You've both done GREAT harm to your marriage, but if there's any chance at fixing it, it's here. Don't run away. The things that make us the most uncomfortable to hear are sometimes the things we need to hear the most.


Widowed 11/10/12 after 35 years of marriage
*********************
In a sense now, I am homeless. For the home, the place of refuge, solitude, love-where my husband lived-no longer exists. Joyce Carolyn Oates, A Widow's Story
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Originally Posted By: chinagirl

I don't mind folks pointing out my sins, waywardness and faults as long as they follow up with some helpful advice. I'm not up for judgment for the sport of it. Where is the good in that?


If you don't mind, then why get so defensive? The fact that you are deflective and defensive reflects a lack of real acceptance. Anyone can read your post and see that you do mind. Very much. Acceptance is the first step towards recovery.

Quote:

With the kids being friends with OW's kids, I get triggers on a daily basis. Kids don't know anything. Just that Mom had a big fight with OW and that we are not friends anymore (hence the yelling the night I kicked her out of the house). They send the other kids mail and emails. They received a packet of letters from the states from them, yet I know it's OW's passive-aggressive way to disguise her evil ways with so-called "good". I know her all too well. So much betrayal and manipulation on so many levels...



The solution is to tell the kids about your affairs and cut off contact with that family. If the OW is dangerous to your marriage, she certainly is dangerous to your children. She is a direct threat to their stability and they don't know it. It is in their best interest that you close this door and give them the reasons why.


"It is not the critic who counts; not the man who points out how the strong man stumbles, or where the doer of deeds could have done them better. The credit belongs to the man who is actually in the arena.." Theodore Roosevelt

Exposure 101


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Let me put this another way. If you had the proper "judgment" about your adultery, you would not mind if others judged it either. You would agree rather than defend and deflect.


"It is not the critic who counts; not the man who points out how the strong man stumbles, or where the doer of deeds could have done them better. The credit belongs to the man who is actually in the arena.." Theodore Roosevelt

Exposure 101


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I think what people are getting at is that you can't really change something without taking responsibility first. If your husband is willing to work on the marriage with you, maybe you put the past aside and move forward. After you've made some good headway, you can always come back and address those issues if you still feel like you need to. At this point, if all infidelity has been addressed and precautions are in place to prevent it happening again, I think you just need to work on maintaining those precautions and rebuilding your marriage.

Be grateful you are both willing to change and do exactly that:) Phone call into the Harley's is great. You probably need some more personal, specific guidance that they are qualified to give. Did you read their books? I can't remember if you said you did or not. If you didn't, then read them: Surviving an Affair, His Needs/Her Needs, Love Busters. And do what they say. If you are both on board, it will work. Build the marriage that will meet the needs of both you and your husband, and keep you both happy.


Married: 22 years
Me: BW 41
Him: WH 43
Sons: 19, 17, 12
Daughter: 16
DD 8/09
EA started 8/08
PA started 7/09
Brief recovery of a few months in there.
Separated 10/10
Legal Separation 8/11
Plan B 5/17/12
Plan D 5/31/12

My Story
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Originally Posted By: chinagirl
We are both on board, 100%. Unfortunately, we cannot get the books in China, so we've just been reading all that we can online and doing the questionnaires to help us remain on board. Government is funny about certain things here. We'll be in the states in June and plan to get all of the books.

Was just hoping to get additional insight here.

When people suggest I act a specific way in response to something, I find it frustrating. I am confused. What shall I do further to repent or deal with my sin? H has asked nothing of me in that regard. God has asked for my repentence and trust. No one offered a suggestion but were happy to point it out. It's already been resolved and deemed a sin and a bad choice. If I seem foggy then help me get out of the fog. Please...

The anger I have is toward me, my H and OW. This anger gets me nowhere.

I have a complicated story. I expected much of the finger-pointing, but I thought I might get a warmer welcome. I continue to think of the Bible verse regarding casting the first stone...

I guess I'm not cut out for this type of tough love.



Listen to this radio clip of the Harleys talking about open marriages and how to fix it.
Radio clip on open marriages


FWW/BW (me)
WH
2nd M for both
Blended Family with 7 kids between us
Too much hurt and pain on both sides that my brain hurts just thinking about it all.



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Here are better clips on open marriages.

Radio Clip on open marriage

Segment #2


FWW/BW (me)
WH
2nd M for both
Blended Family with 7 kids between us
Too much hurt and pain on both sides that my brain hurts just thinking about it all.



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Originally Posted By: chinagirl
Yes, it was "okay" (in a distorted way, mind you) for me to sleep with OW. H said he was okay with me exploring my sexuality with other women, not other men.


Originally Posted By: chinagirl

OW's spouse blames the A on me--says that I invited OW into our bedroom and that I am an idiot for thinking that it wouldn't lead to this. I admitted my wayward behavior and apologized for being deceitful toward him. In fact, I told him about me and OW because I knew that OW wouldn't. I'm not saying that I didn't contribute to the mess, that's for sure, but I, in no way whatsoever, had anything to do with FWH's and OW's A.


Okay, I just wanted to point out what some of us might consider active waywardness. You are still trying to justify that it was "okay" for you to have a sexual relationship with OW because your husband said so (don't you think he might have been motivated, not in your best interests, but so he could have an A with OW as well?) But you didn't clear it with her husband...or your children...or her children...or your religion...or your society. That's part of the problem, and you probably need to accept all the places your distorted thinking allowed you to go wrong in the first place in order to create a better marriage moving forward. I just wanted to point out this one specific thing in terms of your "active waywardness" because you still feel justified in your act of having an affair, without realizing that it was indeed the slippery slope that brought your relationship to this point.

But...you've had a lot of 2x4s thrown your way. So, on to something more positive and forward thinking. What have you and your H done to affair proof your marriage moving forward? I agree with the other poster that you need to tell your kids what you've all done wrong and why it has hurt your marriage and their friendships. You have harmed them, and it's time to make amends to them as well. What have you done to address the idea of your bisexuality in a heterosexual marriage? Have you committed to abstaining from sexual relationships with women for life? Have you looked into any ways that the idea of open marriage became acceptable to you, as a Christian woman, for instance, do you view or read pornographic material that depicts open relationships or bisexual relationships? In your opening post, you said you wanted marriage counseling on a few occasions, will you do counseling with the MB coaching center? Or the marriage builders online/home study program? What are you and H doing to meet one another's emotional needs? How much undivided attention (UA) are you giving one another a week?

A lot of the point of marriage builders is that affairs won't happen in marriages where there is a mutual romantic relationship, where emotional needs are met by the partners, and where there is enough good sense and practical measures to avoid the situations that could lead to affairs (time alone with objects of sexual interest, etc.) In your case, some of this may be extremely difficult now moving forward. Most wives, for instance, only have to contend with avoiding private time with men, but you'll have to avoid private time with men or women in order to avoid the possibility of developing affection for another person other than your spouse. Are you committed to doing so?


Me, BS: 35
WxH: 36 "HAM" Hearts a mess
6yo DS (with WxH), 9 and 12yo DDs from first marriage
Discovered DH's affair in June, 2011
"I'm not having an affair, you're crazy." major gaslighting
Served with divorce papers on 2/3/12
Divorce final 7/29/2013
Living day by day, counting my blessings, loving my children
Personal Recovery well underway!
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Originally Posted By: chinagirl

I have a complicated story. I expected much of the finger-pointing, but I thought I might get a warmer welcome. I continue to think of the Bible verse regarding casting the first stone...


Well, I continue to think that you weren't throwing around bible verses when you were in bed with the OW, so your use of them now is a little self serving and hypocritical. crazy

You have recieved some really good insight here, did you read it?


"It is not the critic who counts; not the man who points out how the strong man stumbles, or where the doer of deeds could have done them better. The credit belongs to the man who is actually in the arena.." Theodore Roosevelt

Exposure 101


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I guess I'm not cut out for this type of tough love.

Well then, hold on to your bonnet, because NG just got here!

We are both on board, 100%.

No, you're not. Here is what being 100% on-board would entail.

1) Wide and total nuclear self-exposure by each of you to all your family members and friends, asking for their assistance going forward as you and B/WH attempt to learn what the exclusivity of marriage really means.

2) Similar exposure to OW's family and friends, asking them for their assistance in keeping her from your family, in any way.

3) A pair of stone-solid NC letters, reinforcing your distaste for the negative impact she had on your lives.

4) Honesty and full explanation to your children about what has transpired, why it was wrong, and what you plan to do in the future.

5) Admission to yourselves that regardless of your claims, you have insufficient knowledge of the principles of Christianity as they relates to marital/familial duty and the burden of righteous admonishment of sinners by true Christians.

Now before you get all "hissy", you go ahead and find anything in my post that attacks you.

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One of the conditions of your recovery is for both of you to follow Extraordinary Precautions, boundaries that you create around your marriage to protect it from future infidelities. One of those will be not spending the night apart. I am sure one the vets here can link you to what Dr Harley says about spouses spending the night apart.

Given the volatility of your relationship, your H might want to consider a different job where you can focus on your recovery and not on the hardships of expat work, and he most definitely will want to look for a job that does not require travel.

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