Well, so far things are going ok'ish. H has changed a lot of his behaviors, is thinking of me more, actively pursuing some UA time with me, etc. Still feel like there is a long way to go. We are not getting the recommended UA time and H is not on board with getting into the online program where we have a coach to hold us accountable. Unfortunately. He thinks we just need to 'do it' which is all fine and dandy if we DID which we don't, everything else seems to stand in the way.

Yesterday we had a little setback. In MC about 3/4 of the way in, I had a little internal panic attack. I am not sure what brought it on really. I just all of a sudden, in the midst of a conversation, felt trapped, claustrophobic, like I needed to get out of there. I felt overwhelmed with the amount of work and the high walls and the nitpicking every interaction we have to make sure there are no love busters and everything is hunky dorry. I just felt like it shouldn't have to be so hard to be loving and respectful to each other. But apparently it is. IDK. I immediately went cold, and the MC and my H both asked me what was going on. I said nothing, but then when we were leaving I said (stupidly) 'don't you ever just feel like this is a lot of work?' I know I should have kept the trap shut, it just slipped out. Then I tried to explain myself and things only got worse. H was hurt by it, obviously.

This is not the first moment or day where I have felt this way. It's not resentment, its more apathy, like I just don't want to fight anymore. Funny that I finally get what I want, which is him investing in recovery, and now I don't really know if I want it anymore. Sometimes, other times I want it 100%. How do you explain that. Sometimes I just feel like, after a decade of being treated poorly and deceived, a year and a half of trickle truth, another year and half of waiting for him to fight for me...I just wrapped my mind around the fact that being without him would be easier than being with him and I kind of moved on. Again, that is how I feel sometimes, but not all the time. Other times I am happy and excited about recovery.

It ended with a little spat, him telling me for the hundredth time that he was really struggling not to withdraw from me, which is his standard form of handling uncomfortable situations. Which usually panics me but this time annoyed me. He knows I expect that from him from past experience, and that I FEAR that's what he will do, because if he does its all over. For some reason he feels the need to keep reminding me that he has to constantly fight withdrawing. To keep me on my toes, to keep me in the panic? For leverage? Or just to be honest about his emotions. IDK.

And of course I asked for sex. Somehow it just seems to make everything a little better. He said no, then told me he was sure it would be used against him in the future, how he was 'withholding sex' again. No, I just wanted to be close to him this time.

Sometimes I feel like recovery is a pipe dream.

Can you guys sit down and schedule UA time in advance? Have you ordered any of the the materials that you can do at home?


I don't think you should have kept your "trap" shut but I do think you should have mentioned it when it occurred so that the reason could be found and addressed with the MC's help.


I've been feeling like this lately. Now that we have what we want, we question if it is worth it. I think we need to let that wall down and allow our WH's fill that Love Bank. When that happens, we will feel it is worth it! Most of the time, I am happy that we are back together again

Sounds like a lovebusting going on here. Do you have the Lovebusters book? I just got mine in the mail and started reading it.

Hugs and good luck to you.

~RQ

Thanks Rocketqueen.

The first couple of weeks I scheduled UA time, but we did not follow through with it. Some of it was workout times in the mornings and H was not too excited about working out, so I went out running by myself and he went out and walked the dog by himself and we actually passed each other on the street one day. Not exactly UA time. Our evening UA time has been thrown for a loop because all of our kids have bdays within a couple weeks of each other, so we have had one party after another, dance, you know all the evening things that get in the way. We have stuck to our date nights and weekly lunches though. Things are about to slow down so hopefully we can schedule more UA time soon.

In 2010 we bought the home study course, and did a session with Steve. At the time H was still lying to me/trickle truthing and in my gut I knew it, so I was NOT ready to work on recovery until I knew the truth about my life. It was a tough time for me. Needlesstosay we did not follow through with the course at that time. But we have read the books, or at least I have I don't remember what H all read.

I should have mentioned it in MC. It was really like a panic attack and I just needed to get out of there and get some fresh air. Was almost like the MC was stifling me, IDK. That's why I didn't then, but I will next week.

Funny you should say that about letting the wall down because my H has said he feels I do not accept his love. And last night he said I am not responding to his progress. I don't want him to feel that way but I guess to some extent it is true. How do you get rid of that wall? Guess that is what this thread is all about to some extent, clearly I haven't figured it out yet.

Why don't you walk the dog together as UA time? UA is so VIP to a good marriage and to work the program.

Have you sat down and scheduled with your WH?

Is your MC pro MB? If not they can do more damage than harm. Maybe that could be a reason for the panic attack? Are you rehashing over the affairs in MC?

My H also suffers from panic attacks and so I understand them.

Have you tried this How to find a good Marriage counselor

We have walked the dog together in the evenings for UA time. Mornings are hard because we still have a little one home asleep, need one parent here with him. That morning my older daughter was home and awake and in charge, but that is not common. The plan was to work out together, in the basement where we have a workout area, still here but with kids asleep. Really want to stick with that plan, I have had a lazy winter and need to get back to regular workouts.

No in past I have been the one scheduling it and just sending him the schedule. I know we need to sit down and schedule it together. Even then it isn't a matter of scheduling as much as a matter of follow through.

Our MC did not seem familiar with MB at first. I think he has researched the principles now since I talk about MB things incessantly and he knows we are following the MB program. At first I was an MB snob so to speak and was just waiting for him to contradict MB principles so I could pounce him, lol. But he never did. He has been supportive of the principles. The only negative thing I have heard him say about it was disbelief that anyone could actually find 15-25 hours of UA time a week. My response to that is, if there are people who do it, and there are, it can be done. So no we are not rehashing the A's, he is supportive of getting our questions answered and then moving on. This week we discussed an episode which I should have posted about on here, where I had to look at my own boundaries around men and re evaluate them. And our newfound MB belief about strong boundaries around the opposite sex. He was supportive of having very strict boundaries.

I don't really suffer from panic attacks, at least I haven't before. But I never used to get headaches until all this started either, so who knows! Crazy what a physical impact it can have on you.

We went through a couple MC's before finding this one. Including Steve, I am not opposed to going back to him but at the time it was not helpful to me. So far our current MC is working out well. Although I did remark to my H that MB was making life easy for him, we are pretty much doing the MB program and then telling him how we used the MB program/principles to resolve some issue.

So you know the drill. UA a priority. I would strongly suggest scheduling it together and then you have his enthusiastic agreement.

Do you want to share about the boundary issue that you were having?

Watch the headaches.

Sure. We have lived in our neighborhood for about 8 yrs. As a SAHM I have a friendly relationship with most of my neighbors, and have called on them when needed for favors and vice versa. My H, who works a lot and used to travel, never developed a relationship with any of our neighbors. Our neighbors have always been drinkers. Although I used to enjoy a drink with them on occassion, I learned to bolt early in the evening before any drama ensued. And over the course of time due to various different entanglements, I have stopped hanging out with them all together, and have very little communication with any of them. What are entanglements you ask? Well, many years ago our then next door neighbors gf asked me if I would have a threesome with them. I thought she was joking at first but it turns out she wasn't. I politely said h e double l no. Same neighbor also made somewhat of a pass at me one other evening, I just walked away from him. Then on our other side we had a couple move in and it was soon discovered that they are in 'the lifestyle.' You guessed it, soon there are other couples in our hood in 'the lifestyle.' They have nicknamed me 'hot unwritten' because there are several unwrittens in our neighborhood. I guess we have nicknames to differentiate us. At neighborhood parties they talk very sexually the drunker they get, and eventually someone gets naked. So I've heard I've never been there for that. A swinging friend of my neighbor did approach me once and say 'his wife gave him the OK' (she did, she was there smiling at me when he said it). NAST. And finally, yet a totally different neighbor kissed me at a party, the last one I have been at, totally unprovocated and I left right away and told H about it that night and have completely distanced myself from anything other than hi at the mailbox. NONE of these people do I have any kind of attraction to, or let fill any needs, and some of them are nice by day but the whole swinging thing is just blachh something I don't like to think about. So...I guess my point is that my H does have EVERY right to dislike our neighborhood and not want to have anything to do with our toxic neighbors who have NO boundaries.

But, I still have for years been in random communcation with neighbors. As long as I am not going to parties or around when they drink, and steer clear of any of the crazy stuff, the daily lawn mowing wave is fine, as far as I'm concerned. So last week we had a tornado warning but the sirens didn't go off. My neighbor was mowing the lawn and I texted him to tell him, FYI do you know there is a tornado warning. OK thanks. That was the exchange. Two days later we randomly discovered that this same neighbor (one of the swingers) worked at the same company as H. I texted him to tell him that. I don't know why, because maybe they will run into each other and I don't know why wouldn't you say hey guess what we work together. I don't know there was no reason behind it, I have always been friendly and chit chatted with people by text and it was never a problem before this. H did not see it that way and came down hard on me. I was upset, I felt like he was accusing me of having some ulterior motive and there was none. After getting a little defensive, I then stepped into his shoes, and I saw it from his perspective and I understand his concern about me texting male swinging neighbors. Totally get that. Deleted his phone number and will never text another male neighbor again (swinger or not).

Anyway, I have gotten away with having male friendships all my life, during my whole marriage. My H could care less before now. Since I kept it platonic and in the case of neighbors have NO attraction to any of them, I didn't see the big deal, until now. But old habits are hard to break and I wasn't even thinking, that's what it came down to. I just really had to look at myself once again and the lack of boundaries I have had, and what a danger they are. And how I wouldn't tolerate H having that same lack of boundaries. Obviously reading over the story there have been a lack of boundaries, even though I never started a relationship with a neighbor the fact that I have had so many advances is proof to that right. I just never looked at it that way before.

That's the story. It was a learning experience for me. Next time I will let the neighbor get hit by the tornado, if it keeps my marriage protected...

About the job thing. This is a new job for H. His old job I had a good friend at, who kept an eye on him for me more or less. At his new job I don't know any of the people he works with. So I did think, is he having such a fit because I now know someone who he works with? Is there something he does not want me to find out, such as about his hot admin or friendliness with some female coworker? But I dismissed that thought and never brought it up. Did not want to defend my lack of boundaries with what are YOU up to??? But it does show my major lack of trust, especially with his work environment since almost all his relationships were with coworkers and the one that wasn't occurred during work travel. Guess that's part of the process.

Wow. That would give me a headache too.

If your H doesn't like the neighborhood (I wouldn't either) why don't you look into moving? POJA this my dear.

Second I'm so glad that you get it about opposite sex friendships. I would also pick better friends and caution the running by yourself with all these creepers in the neighborhood. No wonder your H has a problem with the neighborhood.
It's all about boundaries.

Listen to this radio clip where Dr. Harley talks about this very thing. He cautions no texting, no email, no facebook with the members of the opposite sex.
Radio clip on How dangerous Opposite sex friendships are

Oh ya, we have been wanting to move for YEARS. Like many others, our house has lost so much value since we moved in it is upside down. We have to pay to get out of here and pay a larger down payment on the next house, all that money savings is still in the works. But we talk about moving every day, definitely something we agree on.

We want to move out to the country, where we have no neighbors...

FYI these aren't really what I consider 'friends' as in, I wouldn't pick them as friends and certainly won't maintain a relationship when we move with any of them. Like family, you can't choose your neighbors though. I have just tried to be friendly, more or less, until now.

I have discovered there are a LOT of creepers in the world. Or people with a major lack of boundaries, or whatever you want to call it. Now that we have set some very high standards for ourselves, we realize how low everyone else's standards seem to be. It's disturbing.

Now that we have set some very high standards for ourselves, we realize how low everyone else's standards seem to be.

Ya know what made me smile about the above statement?

NG,

I am pleasantly surprised by the very fine detail you picked out of that convoluted piece of thread. And you are right, I didn't notice but now that you point that out it makes me smile too:)

unwritten, I just started reading "lovebusters" and came across this passage. It is one of the "States of Mind in Marriage" and is called "The State of Withdrawal". I'll just post the main parts.

"In that state of mind, "the Taker convinces" you that your spouse is not worth the effort"
"Emotional defenses are raised, and there is no longer an emotional bond. You don't want your spouse to meet your emotional needs anymore, and you certianly don't want to meet your spouse's emotional needs.
When we're in the state of withdrawal, we raise emotional deenses so high that our spouse cannot get love units through that barrier. We don't allow ourselves to be VULNERABLE enough for our spouse's actions to meet our emotional needs"
"though withdrawal may be painful to the other spouse, it is not really punishment. It is giving up. When one spouse sees no hope in the future of the relationship, escaping into withdrawal seems the only choice possible."

Sound familiar??

OH RQ it sounds VERY familiar!!! I have been trying to catch up on your thread BTW and Kiss's thread too.

I have been in this state off and on for about 3 years now. Today I am 'better' than I have been for a long time, have many days where I am excited to recover, but I still slip back into this state too often for my own comfort. Even when we are having some kind of disagreement or bad moment or whatever, I start to withdraw. I am thinking in my head, NO LBing NO LBing, NO withdrawing! but I just don't CARE at that moment, if I am building love banks or recovering or not.

One of the reasons for that is because during the last 3 years I have been through the ringer emotionally, I'm sure you and many others can relate. There used to be a time when I could not IMAGINE life without H. We did not even speak the D word (divorce). But then all this trickle truthing and stuff started goin down and I had to start thinking about divorce. I had to consider it. I had to consider what I feared about it. What life would really be like without H. Consider what it would be like to see him in another relationship, or me be in another relationship. As a SAHM I had to consider how I was going to support myself and my kids, work through my financial fears. I did all that. The last thing I had to get over was the sadness at telling my kids about the D and losing the family I always thought I would have. Being a broken family. Up until DDay I still fought because I didn't want to give that up. But then DDay came and went and H did nothing to recover our relationship and eventually I gave up on those things too. I EMBRACED divorce. I thought, it will be hard, but finally I will have PEACE. When I asked for a D the final time, I was there, and that is when H started taking recovery seriously.

But now, here I am wondering some days if he just pushed it too far, know what I mean? I made peace with the fact that this was going to end in divorce. I was ready for it. And now I having to go back and try and reopen my love bank for him, find the hope and desire I once had all over again.

OK this is just blogging. I totally agree though, sounds very familiar. Guess just another thing I have to overcome in this recovery I guess.

wanted to edit some spelling errors

I hear ya, friend. Divorce makes the situation easier to accept and move on and try to forget. Trying to recover...MUCH more difficult lol!

BTW, kiss has not been posting in awhile. I haven't either, really. If he is not willing to recover, then I am not either.

RQ, you still have personal recovery.

Agreed! I see my IC tomorrow night, I'm hoping she will help me with this.

Well. I just got back from MC where we discussed this little panic attack I had last week. My episodes of feeling indifferent and checked out. My frustration with H not really working hard on recovery. He has made some strides, don't get me wrong. He has been more considerate, less self centered, has been in charge of scheduling weekly lunches and date nights. There is progress.

But its not enough. He is frustrated, feeling like I am not ever happy I suppose. I am feeling like, this type of maintenance that he is doing is great! And would be sufficient if we were trying to maintain an otherwise happy and healthy relationship. We are not. We are trying to dig ourselves out of this deep, deep hole of destruction before we can even begin to 'maintain.'

I know I have been called out in this thread to 'drive the boat of recovery.' I spent a decade ready to do anything to make this a better marriage. Even when I was in rebellion mode I was praying for him to just come clean so we could work on recovery. Then, he did come clean. Yet, we didn't work on recovery. We just...existed. Brushed it under the rug. I went from VERY resentful and angry, to just indifferent I guess. I can't remember the other stages but I have probably been through all of them except whichever the healthy one is! For the first decade the Giver was in charge and worshipped the ground he walked on. Don't want that back, fo sho. He took full advantage of that Giver! Then a year of Anger, is that a stage? Good thing I wasn't posting then or the mods would have kicked me off a here! Now, indifference/Withdrawal?

So I know what needs to be done. I know we need more UA time to build some love, and we need to invest into our MB home program, which has been sitting in our basement collecting dust through all of this. I just can't find it in me to walk down there and brush off the dust. I guess like you RQ, if he isn't fully invested, isn't willing to do everything he can to keep me here, then neither am I. I just need to see his desire to want this to change. I need to see him fight for this. His own indifference and lack of desire to go above and beyond, speaks volumes to me. It does NOT inspire me to move forward in recovery.

I guess I just need to know that I am moving forward with someone who values and loves me and wants to recover this. If he doesn't, why do I?

So...I have been giving a lot of thought about the withdrawn state. I guess my goal is to try and behave my way to success, or action first feelings later. Fight my urge to withdraw and just force myself to keep filling needs as much as possible, etc. What other advice is there to force myself out of this withdrawal state?

And I have been very frustrated lately because my #2 EN which is SF has been unmet for many years, and continues to be unmet. It is second only to Openness and Honesty which has replaced it during this time, before that it was #1. I know I am still struggling to meet H's most important EN's, one of which is the ever dreaded domestic support. I have been trying to clean about 4 hours a day, and even then I still feel like things are in disarray and I know he still doesn't feel happy. But I am trying, and continue to get better. Now SF is not 4 hours a day, and it seems to be mutually pleasurable, he certainly seem to get more enjoyment out of it than I do out of cleaning...so why is it so hard to meet?

I have been frustrated by this for years. It is a common thought amongst people that because I am a woman, who has a high need for SF, I must be REALLY in need of affection or attention, or just be insecure and use sex as a way to fill that need. Nope. I just really want SF. I have been known to say I am a 18 yr old boy underneath this 40 yr old woman's body, lol. And yes, I have been afflicted with this need all my life, not just during this midlife surge that women are supposed to have right about now. Sheesh I sure hope I don't get some surge.

I feel like this is a need that is often, not just for me, really brushed off. I read on someone's thread (jerkboy?) that sex is like air, you don't even realize you need it until its gone, and then you can think of nothing else. I understand this. It can dominate the every thought when it is not being met.

I have been blatantly honest about it not being met. H does not really seem to care in the least about that. Two days ago, as I was complaining to a female friend about it (really my only friend I can discuss it with bc the rest all think I am crazy), I thought I should discuss it with him again. I did. He said he would try and meet that need more. Still didn't get any that night...

It is amazing to me how much it affects your feelings when your most important needs are unmet. Now that I am aware of it. About a month ago I thought I would drive the boat, and was assertive at getting this need met. I spent a good decade really being assertive and getting frustrated with the constant rejection, so it is hard for me to do this now. But I did. He played along, although he was clearly doing it to fill a need and not necessarily because he wanted to. Heck check my posts at that time, happy and upbeat and positive! But I got sick of being the aggressor, again. Decided to lay off and see if he would take over, or at least meet me halfway. He didn't, and here I am frustrated again. Possible reason for my withdrawn and negative attitude? IDK. It seems to have a dramatic affect though.

FYI I am 5'10 wear a size 6 and still, at the age of 40, have people tell me I should model. I am very attractive. Not that looks matter, to me. I just wanted you all to know I was not way out of the ballpark on PA and that was the answer here.

So what to do to get this need met? I have heard the Harley's say before that when everything else happens (ie UA time, love banks being filled through other needs being met, lack of LBing, etc) then this will fall into place. But since it is a very important need to me, and when it isn't present I have such a shift in emotions, seems like everything can't fall into place until THIS falls into place. Advice please. Or maybe I'm just venting.

SF being the subject EN always introduces...uneasiness...in a discourse between the sexes.

For that reason let me approach this as if the EN was incognito.

Spouses owe their mates the responsibility to attempt to satisfy the need for any major EN. That has got to be as clear a mandate of the MB program as there is. ("A spouse must be the only source of important EN satisfaction...." yields, in turn, the corollary that the spouse MUST supply the ENs that are vital.)

So if the spouse knows what ENs are critical to the mate, and chooses NOT to satisfy them, then effectively they have abdicated their part in making the marriage work. (We will not discuss spouses not being able, physically or otherwise, to satisfy the EN under consideration.) If that spouse is informed of his failure to satisfy the EN, and continues to choose NOT to do so (having already been vetted for being ABLE to do so), he has abrogated his commitment to the marriage. That "absence of care" for the marriage presents the other with a decision to be made, and it may not be a pleasant one.

You probably already knew (or intuited) that, right?

But on another, related, topic - 4 hours per day of housework? Really? Can I send you a virtual "Attagirl"?