I've been reading on these forums for awhile, finally registered and have posted a couple times. Thought it was about time to get my own story and questions on here.

Where do I begin? Don't want to TMI and also don't want to leave anything out. Me: 40 yr old WW/BW. My husband: 34 yr old WH/BH. We have been married for 12 yrs, DD10, DS8, DS4. Think I got those acronyms right! I love him immensely, but could not say our marriage has ever been good or happy. I've been trying to figure out the best way to explain interlopers without it getting confusing, and have decided on a timeline as the best option. So here goes.

1999 - Married
2000 - I went out with premarriage male friend w/ H's consent, nothing inappropriate happened
2000 - H took female work friend to work party, while I was at home on bedrest due to difficult pg. Gave her backrub. Did not confess this to me until 2009 during 'trickle truth'
2001 - I went out with same male friend, we kissed. Went NC with friend and confessed to H.
2001 - H had ONS with female coworker during business trip. The cherry on the icing of the cake of betrayal. This is the one that haunts me on a daily basis, of course. H did not tell me about this until DDay, August 2010.
2003 - H had EA with female coworker. H denied until about 6 months after it had fizzled out, after constant questioning from me about the nature of their 'friendship'
2005 - I began babysitting for male church member. EA developed and he eventually confessed to having feelings for me. I went NC with him and confessed to H.
2005 - H had EA with friend from HS, this included phone sex and sexual photos exchanged. H did not tell me about this until 2010 during 'trickle truth' phase.
Spring 2009 - after yrs of having few needs met (financial support only) yet somehow managing to continue to love him immensely, feeling like he didn't love me and didn't want to be married to me, wondering about a million little 'things' that set off red flags regarding deception and adultery, feeling very sad and insecure...I had a little talk with God. I asked him to do SOMETHING to get me out of this rut. Thus started what I like to call the 'rebellion stage' of my life. Overnight I went from sad and insecure, to just plain PO'd. My love bank went from pretty full to almost empty, and was filled instead with anger, resentment, and frustration. I started to challenge H at every single turn, I wanted the TRUTH! About everything he had ever done. About how he felt about me. About our marriage. I wanted to either fix it or get out of it. Then started 'trickle truth' phase.
August 2009 - H told me about 2000 party backrub. Said that was IT there was nothing else to tell. I knew it was a LIE.
September 2010 - H let it slip that he had lap dance at strip bar in Vegas a couple yrs before. I didn't so much care at the time about a lap dance, I cared about the fact that he had told me during that trip he didn't go to any strip bars. So...caught him in yet another LIE. This is where whatever boundaries I had just went out the door.
September 2010 - I started an EA with H's very good friend from high school. EA was of mostly a sexual nature including phone sex and photos. Physically meeting was discussed but never acted on.
November 2010 - started online EA with friend from many years before, initiated through FB.
February 2011 - Went to neighborhood party where neighbor kissed me. I went home immediately and told H. Next day I looked in the mirror and thought, is this it? Is this who I want to be? Is this the kind of wife and mother I want to be? Is this the kind of marriage I want? Went downstairs and told H I wanted a D. He was shocked, where did that come from? At the time I just said this was not the kind of marriage I wanted. The next day I confessed about the EA with his friend and the other online EA I had also. He confessed to 2005 EA with friend from high school. Told me that was IT, everything was now out on the table and he wanted to start rebuilding. I didn't believe him.
March 2010 - Discovered MB. Made appt with Steve. I will be honest I did not get the help I was looking for. I wanted the TRUTH. I wanted everything out on the table, and I knew, my gut instinct told me, there was more. I felt like Steve and H were on a team, I was demanding the truth before I put effort into rebuilding anything, and they were both acting like I was just being stubborn and didn't really want recovery. That was the only session we had. I continued to demand the truth over the summer. Started to bring up polygraphs, if H had really told me everything he should not mind taking one. Every time I brought it up he would get very upset and clearly did NOT want to take one.
August 2010 DDAY - told H I wanted him to take a poly. He gave me all the usual reasons he didn't want to. Told him he didn't need to agree with it, just needed to agree to DO it. OR, he could take option 2 which was to just tell me the truth NOW. He confessed to the 2001 ONS. I threw up for 12 hrs straight until I was throwing up blood. Affairs are not pretty folks.
August 2010 - February 2012 - more Plan C. Didn't want to leave but didn't know how to fix things. MC here and there. State of confusion. Zombieland. I was waiting for H to initiate recovery, he was waiting for me to be swept with a memory stick, or something.
February 2010 - Told H I wanted D. Needed to move on. Could not wait for him to initiate recovery any longer, or put effort in, or care about the pain I was in. Life's too short. He begged and pleaded for one more chance to try and make this right. Initiated MC (I know most people on here warn against MC but so far he has been pretty insightful). I discovered MB forums!! Oh how grand they are, so insightful and helpful and I finally feel like I am not alone and have 'friends' who understand where I am and understand why I am still here and want to find recovery. I have gained more knowledge on recovery from these forums than in any other way ever. You people are all amazing. If I had been introduced to the "Plans" years ago my life could have been so different. Anyway, I digress.
Today - H is committed to recovery. He wants a great marriage and partnership. I also am committed to recovery. I am trying to get off my high horse of feeling like he was a liar and a cheat and I was just reacting to how mean he was...I know I am wayward too and also had very few boundaries and I have a LOT of self work to do also. Thank you MB for making me look in the mirror.

I have new questions every day it seems, but my primary one is, how do you REALLY get beyond the resentment? I have had many, many things to be resentful of from the way in which I was treated in this marriage (not good) all the way to the PA ( and I have to say that after having many EA's and other situations involved in our marriage, the PA for me is much much worse or more impactful than any of the EA's, maybe this is because my #2 EA is SF???). As much as I want to and try to move forward, that little devil of resentment just won't let UP.

Thanks for listening and sorting through this really messed up marriage. It disturbs me to see what it looks like on paper.

Before you know it the pros at recovery will be here soon to help you. Have you gotten the SAA and His needs Her needs books?

Unwritten,

I recommend reading "Surviving an Affair" as a start. Also, you said you counseled with Steve. Are you enrolled in the online program or working the at home program? It seems as if you need a consistent, specific plan for recovery. Do you have extraordinary preccautions in place? Do you spend at least 20 hours a weel in meeting each other's most important emotional needs?

Dr. Harley has said that if there is still resentment, then recovery is not complete and there has not been "just compensation".

AM

Thank you for your replys. Shortly after counseling with Steve, we purchased the home program and have randomly worked from it since then. 'Random' is the key word here, yes we are very random in recovery and need a very precise plan. I think we have only read parts of Surviving an Affair.

I have discussed EP's with him, but have never put them in writing.

Regarding the time, I think I have some confusion about this. We spend a LOT of family time together, have a lot of hobbies that include both of us or our whole family. But when we are with our kids it sure doesn't seem like undivided attention time. So does it not count? I have NO IDEA how to spend 20 hours of undivided attention time with him in a week with little kids and busy schedules. I would welcome ANY suggestions here.

We have been working to meet each others needs more. Just recently filled out our EA questionnaires and also the Love Buster questionnaire and shared it, so we would be on track with knowing what needs to fill.

I can't imagine not having resentment. I have no idea how just compensation can be made for everything that has gone on between us, but I guess that's why I'm here, so you can guide me along the way.

My H and I started with the home study program. We upgraded to an MB weekend (what is now the on-line program), started to really work on it weekly, and used the coach frequently. The cost of the home study program was applied to the other program.

Family time does not count as UA time. The recommendation is for both 15 hours of family time and 15 or more of UA time. We did our planning on Monday mornings, but Dr. Harley recommends Sunday afternoons at 3 PM. Just compensation occurs when the EPs are in place and emotional needs are being met.

AM

Children can't be around for UA time. This is clearly stated by Dr. H in HNHN. We encounter the same problem since we have e three year old DD. We plan one night a week where we have a babysitter, we meet once a week for lunch while DD is in pre-k and spend afternoon together and then we plan one late night where we put DD to bed and play our couples game. Food For Talk.

Can you list yours and his top five EN's?

In addition to these excellent suggestions, if you are a SAHM, look after someone else's 4 year-old for a few hours during the daytime when the big ones are at school, and meet your H for lunch.

Can you dump all three of them for an overnight once a week with either of your parents?

Can a parent or grandparent babysit once a week - starting early (say 5PM) and getting the kids to bed, so you are not going out late at night when you are exhausted?

My kids are 22 and 15 now, but when they were little I found it very easy to arrange play dates. It is so much easier to let two four year-olds play together while the parent gets on with something or simply has peace and quiet. My friends and I used to queue up to look after someone else's child, and repay the favour.

In America, apparently, you can get free childcare while you work out at the gym. You and your H need to go early evening and spend a couple of hours helping each other with exercise and talking while you do it, while the kids are looked after. Recreational companionship and UA time combined with creating an attractive spouse! Win win win!

Sadly, I haven't come across the free childcare here in the UK.

Thank you to everyone for your responses, I made notes to try and answer everything.

I am confused about time. I have read 1) 20 hrs/wk meeting EA's 2) 15 hrs/wk family time and 3) 15 hrs/wk UA time. Is the 20 hr's of meeting EA's the same as the UA time? Or can I use things like cleaning (domestic support) for that? Also we do work out together, in the am before kids are up or pm when kids are in bed, at home. Does that count as UA time?

Weekly lunch date is a great idea. We have tried this in the past but due to distance and cost it didn't work very often. H used to work 42 miles away (more like an hr drive one way) and it was spendy and time consuming to go for lunch. Now he works more like 30 miles away and it is definitely more doable. I will get this in the calender.

Weekly date nights would be great and we will work on this too. Unfortunately grandparents are all 3 hours away so we cannot rely on them for consistent date nights or overnights. We do utilize them for occasional kid free weekends though. We have never used hired babysitters for anything and will have to figure that out if we want to do date nights. It can be done.

His top 3 EN's: 1) Recreational Companionship 2) Domestic Support 3) Affection

RC: This one I am a little bitter about. H and I both have lots of hobbies we enjoy, some together and all overlap. In our early years, we had very little money and could not afford to do a lot, and we had little babies/toddlers at home to care for. I have been the Giver, to a fault, and therefore I stayed home to take care of kids so he could still enjoy his hobbies. We could not afford to do things together. I feel like I sacrificed so he would not have to give things up. Now, it is held against me that I did not provide recreational companionship. I would have LOVED to fill that need, it was just not an option at that time.

DS: I have and continue to fail MISERABLY at providing DS. Like crawl under a rock miserably. I love the outdoors and hate the indoors and anything that goes along with being indoors like cleaning, cleaning, and did I mention I was a SAHM? cleaning... I know I need to find a way to get better at it but it is a hard hard thing to do for me.

Affection: I have always provided lots of affection for my H, at least up until I found out about the ONS. After that for about a yr I had a very hard time showing him affection. I am slowly trying to get back to that. He actually seemed annoyed to get it the first 10 yrs, then he didn't have it for a yr and missed it terribly, now he can't seem to get enough.

My 3 top EN's: 1) Honesty/Openness (doubt that would have ranked so high before now 2) Sexual Fulfillment 3) Admiration.

H/O: never filled, not even 1% for 1 day.

SF: also never filled. SF was also used to manipulate me at times in our marriage. I'm not saying it is more difficult for a woman to have this need unmet, just that it has a different dynamic and not one that many people can relate to.

Admiration: never filled.

To do list: 1) put weekly lunch dates in the calender 2) find a babysitter 3) put weekly date nights in the calender. And if working out counts then start working out more, you are right it is a win win!

OK not to completely change the course of our OWN recovery but I also need advice on how to handle this situation.

My BIL (H's brother) has been divorced for about 10 yrs. He has recently started dating a woman who everyone seems to like a lot. This weekend I asked about her and was told the following story: She has 3 kids about my kids ages (4,8,10). They have been 'friends' for awhile but just started dating in December. Although nobody knew when she was divorced (or if she was actually divorced yet) BIL had 'been a close confident and counseled her' through her seperation and divorce. Um, ya. But, we repeat, they did not start DATING until December. (I am guessing she either moved out or D became final shortly before that...making it OK to be officially dating...). Oh, she used to live X but very recently moved to Y (um, you mean from her FAMILY home to her D location). And although they have only been dating since December, they had each other meet parents on Christmas??? (note, these are 40 something yr old people).

Now, after hovering over the Infidelity Forums for a couple of months, this story screamed red flags of infidelity to me. Or am I just a little ULTRA sensitive to it now? If I suspect that my BIL is the OM, do I tell anyone? Do I ask him about it? Do I just keep it to myself? I would have said it was none of my business before now, but after reading all these stories of BS's trying to get help from people, I do not want to be one of those 'it's not my problem' people. Also, I really do not want to accept a WS with open arms into the family. How would you all handle this, not the usual POV on this forum.

Should be 15-20 hours of UA time meeting each others EN's. No children present. Gym time is UA time and meets RC.

Thanks for the clarification IP.

It also appears from your EN's that during your UA time spent without the kids your time should include SF, Admiration, IC, AF, and RC. Neither of you listed IC, but it is a core component of UA time.

Also, post EP's that you think should be in place so we can suggest additional/amplifications. These will be critical for you since you both went outside the marriage.

You are welcome

Not sure what IC is.....


Intelligent Conversation??

Intimate conversation

Well, that's me out...

SMB said it's Intimate Conversation....


I guess that's what females have??

Men have the other....

You'd better run and hide, HPB...

You said it, not me

ROTFLMAO.....

Unwritten,

I would HIGHLY recommend you contact your MB Coach and tell them you are both ready to get bac to work and need some help on where to begin.

Dr. H's Program is a very detailed and very specific program. He will give you the path and the plan, but you must mae every effort to seek the guidance from them that you require.

OK!

So when are you going to contact them??

I HIGHLY recommend this too;
RC Inventory

Since you purchased the online program, you have access to the Weekend Forums....

You can both post questions, anytime, to Dr. Harley, about any subject.... Please utilize this option.

She said they purchased the "home" programme, HPB, not the online programme. The Home Study Course is the online programme without the online bit - without the coach. That is how it is possible for you to work through it "randomly" - because there is no coach guiding and prompting you through the steps.

This couple needs to upgrade and use one of the MB coaches. It will make a great deal of difference.

It is an easy matter to upgrade from the do-it-yourself Home Study Course to getting a coach. I can't remember how, but the details are here on the website. The cost of the Home Study course that you have already purchased is deducted from the cost of the full online course, which is about $1000.

I highly recommend doing this.

Thanks Sugar Cane, I didn't catch that.....


I would agree with you 100%

UPGRADE!

unwritten,

The advantages of the on-line program are many. A personal coach is assigned and you have access to the coach through email and telephone appointments. The coaches meet with Dr. Harley on a weekly basis to discuss progress. The on-line program gives a structure to the order of the lessons - addressing the most important ones first. It also provides accountability about completing the lessons. One of the biggest advantages for me was then whenever we ran into a stumbling block, the coach would talk with each of us separately. Neither one of us was the bad guy, delivering bad news. Well worth the investment.

AM

Thank you for all of your responses. Thank you for clarifying what IC is, I was a little stumped myself! IC has been one of the major things lacking over the last decade, anyone who has had little kids will understand. We have had some of our most intimate conversations over gtalk, where we could not be interrupted! Sad and I'm sure it doesn't count, but it has worked for us to at least stay in communication.

I am going to put together EP's today and post them on here for your advice. I am also going to look into upgrading our home course to the online version. I think we discussed doing that when we first bought the home course but thought we would 'try' the home course first, due to the cost difference. I remember then saying "You know how we operate, we will NEVER hold ourselves accountable to stay on course. This will work if we DO it we just won't do it." Or something to that nature. Clearly, I was right. I think it is time for the upgrade!!!

One of the things I struggle with is that I told my H after he disclosed his ONS that I would not drive the ship of recovery. That HE needed to be the one to initiate recovery. I had for years and years and years been telling him we needed to 'talk about our relationship' and 'find a way to heal our relationship,' I suggested MC for yrs, I discovered MB and pushed us to do a program...after finding out all along he had the most to hide and yet he was the one who was fighting against any kind of recovery process I was resentful. Now I need to see him show some initiative. I need to know that he DESIRES to fix this, and cares about our marriage enough to initiate the work. He has shown such a ho hum attitude all these yrs about recovering our marriage, and obviously things have run a course of further and further destruction. Then, we have this rebellion on my part and this trickle truth and finally a big DDay where he confesses a ONS, it is all very emotional and he BEGS me then and any time I have said I wanted a D to stay and says that he will change and do ANYTHING to keep me. OK, pick up a phone, call an MC. Start doing MB with me again. But he doesn't do any of those things, just goes back to his ho hum attitude about our marriage and seemingly wants to just sweep everything under the rug. Instead it is me, again, on these forums trying to educate myself, gain a new understanding, it is me putting together EP's and reading the REI and asking him to fill out his EN and LB questionnaires and review them with me and...fill in the blank. It is me doing exactly what I said I WOULDN'T do which is drive the ship. I think I spend more hours in a day thinking about how to recover this relationship than he spends in a year. I don't want to be stubborn about who drives the recovery ship, I just want to see the desire he CLAIMS to have shown in his efforts and actions, know what I mean?

Thanks for the recommendation HPB. I did fill out my side of the REI and will have him fill out his side. Our problem though is not knowing what to do together, we have lots and lots and lots of hobbies we do together...we have almost too many hobbies (ok we do just don't want to admit it, ha). However, we also have a couple that are separate, and I know that in the MB principles we should give those up but that is very, very hard for us to do. I am heavily involved in a non profit org and have been involved in this particular 'cause' for my entire adult life, it is a passion of mine and one that he highly respects and supports. As a SAHM it is my 'job' away from home more or less. Also H has been passionate about hunting his entire life. He maintains a relationship with his family through hunting, just last yr DS8 started to hunt with him and as DS8 is a rather difficult child it was GREAT bonding time for him to be alone with his dad, and soon DS4 will start going and it will continue on that family 'boy time.' I would not want to see him give that up! I am trying to incorporate myself into that hobby as much as I can, doing shooting league with him, training dogs with him, etc. but I will never be a 'hunter' know what I mean. So how do we manage all that. I honestly cannot fathom giving those things up, we would both lose a part of ourselves in the process. Back to the positive though like I said we have a LOT of hobbies we share together including one last big one that is very time consuming and one of the things much of our conversation is about, a common passion that we have pretty recently gotten involved in and are both very excited about and can't wait to share our 'ideas' with each other about! Frankly this new mutual hobby of ours will likely be so time consuming it will take over much of my 'cause' time and also some of his hunting time, so this whole separate hobby thing might resolve itself...

I totally digressed there but the REI DID give me some ideas of things to do on date nights, I love going out to a nice dinner but we also are really active and would love to try new things too.

As long as hobbies don't involve members of opposite sex they can be healthy. His sounds safe due to lack of female participation, not so sure about yours. You need to question whether your hobby is worth dissolving your marriage over.....

Oh yeah, also remember it doesn't matter who drives the ship as long as it reaches it's destination. I struggled with this at first myself, but I was told if I improved myself as a husband 100 percent the marriage would be fifty percent better. More than likely he will want to reciprocate and/or meet your needs if you fix your shortcomings in the marriage.

Resentment is a bear. I got loads of it.

Like most types of trauma, I think time will improve this too.

Some of the estimates Ive read say it takes 2 years for a lot of this stuff to be not as enraging as it can be. Ive also read that some are 3-4-5 years into recovery and still they have their moments of resentment.

If you have a spouse (regardless of who cheated) who is committed to the things that make a marriage great like all of the things talked about above, then 2 or 5 years can manageable.

Well, my cause hobby is HIGHLY populated with women, probably 90% or so. H has never felt uncomfortable with this hobby. The hobby we do together is fairly heavily populated with men however, probably 75% men 25% women but we do it together and not only that, are a 'team' and have a very integrated lifestyle because of it. Not sure how that works into the equation.

My marriage and family is more important than ANY hobby. Of course. But we are not a couple who enjoy big houses and nice lawns, we are a couple that are passionate about our hobbies and adventures. It is one of the things we look at now and think, HOW did we screw this up so bad? We have so many common interests and such similar personalities in ways many people would love to have, HOW did we not capitalize on that instead of spend a decade disrespecting each other? Anyway, I can't imagine who I am without the 'hobbies' which I also call passions and are a big part of who I am, who I was pre marriage, pre kids, pre marital destruction, ... Boundaries absolutely. EP's absolutely. But this here is a fine line between boundaries and prioritizing marriage, and giving up some of the other great joys in my life and a part of who I am.

Seriously there has to be some balance between protecting yourself and your boundaries, but not hiding in a closet to keep yourself away from people of the opposite gender.

Since many of my H's infidelities included women from work, and he has and will continue to work with WOMEN because frankly, in todays day and age there are women in every workplace and that can just not be avoided, why is it fair for me to give up a hobby that has men in it. I get it. I am just feeling the sting of injustice here.

When you fill out the RC Inventory, please follow the instructions and it will help you weed out the activities that need to go.

Next start filling out your UA schedule on the weekly calendar. You do this FIRST before scheduling anything else. Make sure the times are NOT TV time and NOT movie time..... You must have opportunities for conversation during UA and TV and movies don't offer that, OK.

After you have 15-20 hrs of UA time scheduled, plot the time you both intend to spend on family time (this will include hunting with the boys) 15 hrs.
The time remaining is the time you have available for individual activities, such as your non-profit work, etc.

ask you husband to come here and login and read/post. SMB and I read together and learn together as a result, it also gives a chance to discuss things that are on the forums.

IP I just got done reading your thread on SF, I struggle with that too and it is one of those things I don't talk about because being the W as the one with a high SF need is not common and I don't find much support. All the 'all women...' advices don't apply to me. Anyway thank you for your candor about all that!

You are totally right. I have to stop and remind myself of that FREQUENTLY. Just sucks to seemingly be the only one who cares. I did have a little heart to heart with him yesterday about this topic. He seemed to understand why I was so frustrated. I pretty much look at it as, worse case scenario if I work my [censored] off at learning about marriage, applying what I learned to be the best damn wife I can be, and he doesn't reciprocate and we end up divorced in the end, I leave as a better woman that I was going in right? In other words, I look at it all as PR as much as MR.

I learned about ONS in August of 2010, so it is over 1 1/2 yrs in. VERY resentful for the first yr, did not provide ANY EA's except SF because it was also one of my needs, even that went from Giver to Taker. Major LBing. And I really DIDN'T CARE if his LB (oh wait is LB love bust or love bank??? lol) was depleted, I was just hurt and resentful and didn't care. But I snapped out of that. Now I am committed, but I also have triggers of resentment and days of major resentment and it just sets me back. One of the best things for me in getting over resentment has been MB making me look myself in the mirror and own up to what I have done to destroy this M, he hasn't been the only culprit. Easier to forgive him when I know he has things he has to forgive too.

When adultery has visited a marriage, ordinary precautions no longer apply..... That is why Dr. H recommends EXTRAORDINARY PRECAUTIONS.

Read here; EP Thread

TV time is EVIL, it sucks the hours of the day away before you know it, with no feeling of accomplishment! Maybe we should just get rid of our tv...food for thought.

I was about to say I have asked my H to come here and read the forums because they have been so helpful to me, and because I would like him to take some initiative of course, but that I would not hold my breath. But then he texted me just now to say that he hopes its OK he is reading my thread so... Hi honey, love you! (tried to do a little smiley there but haven't quite figured that out yet)

Read your thread on EP's. Had some questions/notes on the first 'immediate' list, the second list I might as well copy down verbatim. Q's are what is a post nuptial agreement? Also, I have read talk about getting rid of triggers. Impossible to do with everything of course, but specifically clothes, other tangible items you might have in your home. Is that something you would write in the EP's?

My EP's so far (I know these need a lot of work...)

1) NC with any AP. Since these were past EA's this has already been put in place, but I think I do still have contact info for the last one that I will make sure is gone.
2) Give H access to passwords for all cell phone, emails, FB's, etc. I had a separate email acct during the last EA that is already gone, have never done anything on my regular email acct. And I think H already knows the PW's for all of them. Oh I guess I used CHAT a lot with my last EA, so should I get rid of chat? H can see who I have on my chat, which is now down to about 3 people him included, no one of concern. If I get rid of it then I can't chat with him either. Whats your advice on this or should I ask him what he would like me to do.
3) Do a poly if he wants me to, so far he has said no but I am willing if he wants me to.
4) H recently put GPS on my phone I think, he is welcome to put software on my comp. I am not techie AT ALL and have no idea how any of that works, maybe he has already done it...

As far as other things, I am a SAHM. H manages all of our money/bills. I really don't have money of my own or anything secret other than what I can do online during the day I guess. He has access to cell phone records, etc. and pays all those bills. Not trying to make him sound controlling or like its 'his' money just that he has historically been responsible for all the money management. So I don't really need any EP's regarding money/bank statements/phone bills, etc. I could really not pay for anything that he didn't know about.

What else, seems short. Oh ya I will add the entire list of 'long term' EP's from HPB's thread too. Just a cut and paste there.

Also, from HPB's EP thread:

A) I will protect my spouse and their feelings above all else.
B) I will not participate in any one-on-one meetings with anyone of the opposite sex.
C) I will not discuss my personal marriage issues with anyone of the opposite sex.
D) I will not attend clubs, strip joints, or any such establishment
E) I agree to use POJA as a basis for all decisions.
F) I will be open and honest with my spouse at all times about the past and present.
G) I will provide my spouse a daily schedule of all appointments and contact information.
H) If I need to make an adjustment to my schedule, I will notify my spouse of the change immediately.
I) I will make my spouse�s phone calls my highest priority by answering them or returning them immediately.
J) I will avoid all chat rooms, porn, member sites, etc.
K) I will trade phones with my spouse at any time they request, NO questions asked.
L) I will leave my phone accessible to my spouse at night/or anytime I�m home.
M) I will commit to at least 15 hours of undivided attention with my spouse to meet each other�s ENs every week (time working together does not count toward those 15 hours).
N) If AP finds a way to make contact, I will immediately end the contact and notify my spouse about it immediately after.
O) I will install a keylogger, GPS, or any other tracking system my spouse may request.
P) Anytime I have the thought, �I don�t want my spouse to know about��.�, I will call my spouse immediately and tell them my thoughts.
Q) Anything else my spouse wants as a boundary.

Also, my H will for SURE request that I have an EP about male friends. I have historically always had male friends. I have male friends that I have known since the day I was born, literally, and a pretty close male friend from my college yrs. Just get along better with boys for the most part. Most of these long term very platonic friendships do not seem to bother H in the least, but I do have some that do bother him. Obviously those need to GO, I am fully prepared for that. Most of the ones that bother him do so for a good reason, as in, some sort of attraction level or XBF status, etc. Should I just rely on him to tell me what friends I have to go NC with? Seriously I have friends from elementary school that I still occasionally talk to, as long as I follow the EP's set above as in not meeting with them without H, never talking about M with them, etc. which should not be hard because these are not close friends by any means, do I need to go NC with them? And if for some reason H ever feels uncomfortable with anyone, go NC no questions asked. Or something like that. I don't want him to feel uncomfortable or have anything further damage trust, of course NONE of those relationships are worth that, but if he doesn't care about some of them then do I need to get rid of them? How do I phrase this whole thing in an EP, or do I ask him how HE wants me to phrase it?

Yes, if you give 100percent, you can leave without regrets. Be careful about venting to your husband about shortcomings, I'm quickly learning it can turn into LB's if to frequent.

TV is an idiot box. Pre-affair I watched 2-3 hours a day, now 2-3 hours a week. Too much stuff to do with family and spouse for tv and I only have one kid.

Thanks for the reminder. I believe I am a HUGE LBer that way. Mostly because I like to 'lay the cards on the table' so if I think it I must say it. Not always in a mean way (sometimes) but more in a matter of fact way I guess. But I do think it makes H feel like there is always something.

This is (almost) the same as Pre-Nup agreement.... except you are already married, so it's Post marriage....

My Post-Nup gave my wife reason to believe and have faith in our marriage again. I agreed, in the event of any future infidelity, that my wife would receive 100% cash value of my/our entire asset portfolio. It set up custody arrangements and alimony for life as some of the highlights..... The wording is very particular and requires good attorneys. This is not necessary in every marriage, but in our case, due to the amount of damage I created, it was a must


YES, you can add these things to your one time list of EP's.


I had moved into a condo during my A, furnished & equipped it completely. Upon reconciling, as advised by dear friends here on the forums, we decided to have some people come in and take everything to Goodwill. We kept nothing! We didn't want anything that could act as a trigger. Sold all the vehicles we owned at that time as well. These decisions, and many other similar ones, saved our marriage.

Well, NG hasn't created a stir on MB in a while, so it's time....

UW, stop being a dilettante in your recovery. You can't "ease" your way into this exercise. Dive in and start working, okay?

Some things that really leap out at me:

Your favorite vs his favorite hobby: If there are impediments in both cases, find a third, or fourth, pasttime.

Date night issues: Grammy and Grampy live too far away? That's why God created babysitters, or even better, cooperative child-care situations (your date-weekend, followed by their date-weekend). Doable in your circle? Don't know, but more pertinently, neither do you.

Your oh-so-innocent male friends: Oh, boy! You KNOW they irritate your W/B-H, you know they have to go, so you're waiting for WHAT, exactly? What we should be reading is "I dumped those impediments weeks ago."

Fix these three, and I'll invest the time to help you with some others.

PS: What's another word for a SAHM Mom who marginally(?) does housework? A major taker!

Oh now NG don't be so harsh on me about this housework thing. I am a stay at home MOM...not stay at home HOUSECLEANER. Just to clarify what SAHM stands for. And, for the record, I suck at the housecleaning part. I am very, very open and honest about that! Everyone has their gifts, housecleaning is not mine, doesn't make me a bad mom, just a bad housekeeper. And I'm not sure how that makes me a major taker, perhaps you can explain that to me.

How am I easing my way in. I am spending hours a day reading through the MB principles and forums and taking notes on a daily basis of my daily 'to do's' and asking for advice from the experts. I am not trying to excuse myself of anything, just get clarity on what needs to change and what doesn't.

I said I would work on getting babysitters (have found one). And plan date nights (already on the calender). And plan lunch dates (I will go and do that RIGHT NOW). I have asked questions and made to do lists and implemented on everything I have been advised here. Not sure why you think I am skirting things.

Male friends. My question was if I have to NC ALL male friends, or just ones that H is uncomfortable with. I am fully prepared to NC male friends that he is uncomfortable with. I will do it NOW in fact.

So if you have more to tell me please do. I am ready to dive.

PS I had to look up 2 words in your post to see what they meant. So thank you for that vocabulary education.

OK I went through my phone and computer and FB and deleted all contact info for male friends who I know H has a problem with, which was really only a couple. One XBF who I haven't spoken to in months. And one other recent friend who H has just never felt right about. I also deleted all contact info for anyone who I really had no reason to contact, or cared if they were gone, or thought that H doesn't know who this is and it might give him cause to wonder. The only males I have contact info now are mutual friends from our hobbies, or contacts for kids friends, neighbors, etc. I will let H go through and see if there is anyone else he would like to delete and have at it though too. And, will ask him how to block people on my phone if there is anyone he would like me to actually block.

What else.

unwritten, only the ones that H is "uncomfortable with"? No, ALL opposite sex friendships (for both of you) must go. This is why you have crossed the line several times...

Have you read Dr Harley's article on this topic? It is under the Articles section of the website.

Be careful NG!

My wife is a SAHM too (MOM being the key word) Not Paid household servant. I take far more than she does in the domestic support arena (if we actually kept score)!

Dr. H has a few thoughts about this subject starting here;
Link to letters about domestic responsibilities

A BAD housekeeper is someone who cannot get the house (dishes, laundry, whatever) clean efficiently. Someone who cannot get the same task done at all, is not bad, just disinterested and uncommitted. (And I know what a SAHM is - our children enjoyed that glorious arrangement for about ten years.) I also would point out that being home provides proximity and immediate access to "short duration" opportunities to address cleaning issues - vacuum a room, mop a floor. So, if DS is on your spouse's EN short-list - your move!

You - today - eliminated the irritant male friends? GOOD!

You're working on child-care solutions? GOOD - when you firm them up, and implement them.

You failed to address the hobby issue.

UW, you have the ability to address these things every day. "Buying in" to the MB practices is doing just that.

But I made you an offer, and stand by it. What is the next (most impervious?) obstruction to your making progress?

Well, stop sucking at it. That is not an acceptable attitude. Part of the deal involved in being SAHM is keeping the environment clean and tidy for your children - it is actually part of taking care of them - and for your H, who supports you financially so that you can stay at home. Make the home hygienic, pleasant and welcoming.

Work out a daily and weekly timetable so that laundry is done, beds are first aired and then made, clutter is picked up and dishes washed. Additionally, you need to vacuum or wash floors, and dust, but not all rooms, and not every day.

I believe the website flylady will give you tips to keep on track. Do something. "I suck" simply is not acceptable.

unwritten, I anticipate that you will be posting that you will "give up" all opposite sex friendships now that it has been suggested

but

what you have written above is alarming to me. This demonstrates that you DO NOT understand how important it is to NOT allow men to meet your ENs, especially intimate conversation. Regardless of whether you or your H deem them a threat or not.

Thanks for your response SQ. I will read it now. I feel like I am going to take heat for having contact with ANY male at any time. Friendships/people I have regular communication with/people I communicate with by phone or text or more personal ways/etc. I completely understand. But I have lots and lots of 'contacts' more or less that I do not do these things with. And mutual friends through our hobbies, phone contact for couples we know, neighbors, ...I understand that because I had EA's these ALL can be threats. But if I deleted every one of these I would have no info for anyone to contact to come over for a bbq, is my kid over there playing... I really am not trying to justify having men in my life I am just saying I have neighbors who I consider friends but I also rely on them to ask them to pick up my mail while I'm gone...do I need to get rid of contact for ALL those people, just because they are men.

OK going to read this article.

Thank you HPB for defending us SAHM's!!! But, I did do some thinking on why exactly this particular NG comment made my blood boil. As much as I cringe to say it there is some TRUTH to it. Food for thought on my part. Darn you NG for that forced self reflection!

You are exagerating it and using qualifiers as a way to... throw a temper tantrum.


Yes, you musn't spend time with ANY male who is not; your husband, your blood relation, or present at any time when your husband is not.

Many a wayward wife has a story that starts with "I always had mostly male friends..."

Protect yourself, protect your marriage. You had mostly male friends because you like men. So did my wife. She had an affair.


I LOVE women. I did NOT have an affair. B-U-T, I discovered that after my wife's infidelity, I was more vulnerable... and so I follow EP's myself. Not to mention, it's the right thing to do for my marriage.


Temper tantrums don't change truth.

Oh goodness...ok you got me I am totally disinterested and uncommitted. Totally. Sheesh just so you all know I'm not sitting in a house from the hoarder show or anything. Just have a tad bit of undiagnosed ADD and have a hard time staying focused. Tad bit disorganized. And for SURE need to get better at holding others accountable, I try to do everything for everyone and not make them responsible for themselves, which overwhelms me. And I guess that kindof is a bad mother trait too.

Hobby issue. I failed to address it because I wasn't seeing this as an issue. I TOTALLY agree with the advice on how to schedule time 1) marriage 2) family 3) self hobbies. Once that is done I don't see the issue. And like I said one of our primary hobbies right now is a shared hobby that should count toward our time and also meet H's RC need. And many of our others are family hobbies. What am I not seeing here.

OK now I have to go look up impervious...OH I guess my next most impervious obstruction is H. Can't really force him to follow through with any of these things. Can serve my EP's to myself, sit at lunch by myself, go to dinner by myself...although he says all the right words he hasn't shown a lot of initiative and cringes every time I say we need to do some of our MB work, etc. So, guess that is my main leftover hurdle.

Although he did log in and read my thread today, which, was shocking to say the least.

You are totally right SC! I need to do better. But for the record, it is like making you a mechanic and when you struggle because you are not mechanical, telling to just stop using that as an excuse. We are all just meant to be good at different things, and I am really just not good at it. If you are familiar with the Fly Lady, who totally gets it because she has been a woman like me, and has many women like me as 'Fly Baby's', you will understand that some of us are just not good at this. I have tried lists, jars, excel spreadsheets, daily and weekly lists, organizers, online calenders, etc etc etc and have been a 'fly baby' for years, to try and be more organized. I have struggled with it for years. Just like I am not good at sending cards at birthdays, it is not my forte. I am old enough to recognize that I have things I am good at and things that I'm not and accept that. But, I can do BETTER. I can INVEST more than I do, that is what I will strive to do.

Thank you SQ. I do understand. I will not lie and say that I have not had a habit of getting those EN's met elsewhere, in all honesty I have had male friends my whole life and have always had IC with them, I really didn't even think of that as any kind of EA any more than I thought of having IC with a girlfriend as an EA. It is only when there was some sort of attraction on either side, or any kind of flirting or sexual content that I thought it inappropriate and went NC. And in 99% of my male relationships that has NEVER been an issue, nor can I believe it to ever be an issue, but I get what you are saying that this is a weakness and I need to not even have the opportunity for it.

I just get along better with men. And I know that is going to sound like I am trying to find a way to keep having men in my life so I can get my needs met by them, its not. I am not. I am just saying that I hung out with boys when I was a kid, have male friends from college, have ALWAYS had more male friendships than female friendships. And 99% of them have been platonic. I will give up whatever I need to, but it will be kindof life changing for me. That is why you see me bucking the system a little here. I want a good marriage, I want my H to be the only man meeting my needs, I know what I need to do to get there. Have no OPPORTUNITY for any other man to meet my needs. Thats what you are saying yes?

Can't really force him to follow through with any of these things.

Okay, YOU'RE here. We'll work on the basis that you're not here simply to escape housework (Smile! Just a joke!).

So, we want to get hubby to get with the program and form a tight marital partnership, right? Well, watch the video below:

[video:youtube][/video]

Not surprisingly, only one of the pair (the taller one) had a vision of what this would eventually look like. Selling the other partner on the desirability of the program was called for.

Tonka enjoyed the liver treat incentives while training. Your hubby - probably not so much! But you have lived with him long enough to understand him. Give him your vision of what the marriage you want holds in store.

OK that I just wrote that SAME thing to SQ before reading this, the whole "I've always had male friends..." Just trying to be honest and talk out loud the things that are hard for me to give up. Its not a sexual thing just a personality thing (not that there is anything wrong with women's personalities, I'm just kindof a tomboy I guess). Since you don't know me other than these boards that will just sound like wayward fog talk though. Nothing more I can really say about it.

Not really sure where I'm having the tantrum.

YOU TOTALLY GOT ME!!! I haven't done housework ALL DAY I've been on this forum. And ran a kid to the Dr and preschool of course but...I digress.

I can relate ANYthing to dog training so, say no more my friend. I shall be baking up some liver treats first thing. Oh yes I DO bake and cook very well thank you, if I can just find my countertop amongst the roaches...JUST KIDDING!!!

Wow, my STBX is exactly like you just a man. He has always gotten along very well with women moreso than with men and had maintained many friendly relationships especially with the women he worked with as he was a nurse. He had a VERY difficult time understanding how black/white this issue was and, yes, he also strayed several times.

SMB (an amazing poster who is HPB's wife) wrote something to my H about EPs that I was luckily able to find by googling the word cornerstone. I thought this may help you understand...

SQ, I have NEVER had my LB closed to other men. Never. I realize that now and how dangerous that has been.

UW, unless you cut off OM friendships you are doomed to fail. Most men will use women like you to meet SF, and that is one of your top needs, and they get there with IC first. Stop the train wreck before it happens!

IP, I understand. But lets not make men seem like the perpetrator and woman like the victim here, it goes two ways. Ie women can use men to meet SF, and men can be duped. And when either is married they are all equally wayward.

Got off on a tangent and didn't respond to this educational post. Post nuptial, well I've never heard of such a thing! This is brilliant and something I may just look into.

One of my main triggers for my husbands ONS is his wedding ring. I just wonder where its been. Sad to say I despise his wedding ring, makes me ill to look at it or be touched with it. I contemplated making him take it off but then I would have a WH running around with no wedding ring on, so that didn't seem like a viable option.

I had an issue with the wedding ring too. I wanted to puke every time I saw it. Needless to say I got her a new one. Not as a reward, but as a new beginning.

I would love to renew vows and get new wedding rings ... someday. Someday if we manage to work through this mess and actually have a marriage. Definitely not now, no where near ready for that yet. Just want the current one GONE. (I have secretly hatched many plans for its untimely death...)

Maybe get some cheap ones from walmart in the interim. I didn't wear mine for a long time, I think just to keep her on her toes. Don't know, I also said I didn't see the point of wearing it that my marriage was an illusion for the past three years.

Dr. Harley doesn't equate meeting the need for DS as, "it's the SAHM's job to get'r done" cause she's the closest to the broom. That's almost laughable if it weren't so insulting.

Many family's do hire part-time domestic employees to fill this need for both spouses.

Sometimes DS is in the top five for BOTH spouses, and just because one of the spouses happen to be a SAHM or SAHD doesn't make it their "job"....

My wife IS a SAHM and she has the options to tackle most of the cleaning along with our kids help or I'm more than happy to pay someone to come in and do the jobs for us.... She's not my slave, she's my wife. It's my role to meet her FS need and that includes the funds necessary to pay for a domestic employee when necessary.

You see, my wife's need for Family Commitment trumps my need for domestic support. FC is her number one need and when she spends all her time cleaning instead of raising and teaching our children, it makes her very grumpy. When she's grumpy, my number one needs of SF and Admiration are not enthusiastically met..... And her need for DS is the same as my need for DS, so we must find creative ways, that we are both enthusiastic about, that fill this need for each other..... and it ain't who's closest to the broom.

Getting a new 'cheap' one to replace the old one now is a good idea, an interim one. Did you have any feelings of sadness about that though? I am torn by the fact it disgusts me, but it also represents the day we were married and the vows we said to each other and the reason I am still here, and throwing that away seems wrong. But, it did touch OW so.... But I did put that ring on his finger, it came from me when I made him my husband. See, I am torn. I have this thing too about wanting to change/avoid things that have to do with OW but also not wanting OW to continue to impact our life. Like I want to get rid of the ring, but then OW takes one more thing from me, the memory of putting a wedding ring on my H's finger.

HPB thank you again for your glorious defense of your beautiful SAHM wife and SAHM's everywhere! The expectations of SAHM's by society is quite remarkable, I fell victim to it as a new SAHM and wanted to be the perfect June Cleaver! Only a new age one who also was heavily involved in volunteer organizations, had some personal hobbies, etc. Yep. Didn't go so well, perfection seemed far from my reach and coupled with a poor marriage left me feeling like a complete and utter failure in life. Which is exactly what I was defending in one of my previous posts, not that I should use 'I just suck at this' as my excuse for not working hard to meet my H's need for domestic support, but that I was not going to allow the fact that organization is not my gift to make me feel bad about myself. Been there done that. I have MANY gifts to thank God for but being a great housekeeper is not one of them. But, I do strive to find new ways to keep myself organized and on task. Honestly this whole thing about DS is a new understanding for me, I always thought it meant PERFECTION at home, perfectly clean home, laundry always done, etc. and I kindof gave up in that impossible task. But my H has recently explained to me the feeling he wants to get from our home, and I have some ideas to make it feel that way without being perfect. So perhaps I just have a new understanding of what he really needs.

Here is what we did. Her ring was expensive, a 1 ct diamond solitaire set in yellow gold, so getting rid of it would have been throwing away six grand. I'm military and on a budget so pawning it wasn't an option, but we went on a cruise for our anniversary and we saw a setting we both liked, walked out of the store and talked about it. I went in and told them to reset my wife's stone in that other band that was white gold. The rest is history. I think that day I made up my mind subconsciously to "go all in on recovery.". My wife cries when she thinks about that day and she says her new/old ring holds more meaning than the engagement ring.

Just food for thought

So let me ask you this, since the topic of my thread is about resentment. Do you ever get resentful about MONEY? H was not, to my knowledge, ever involved in a long term A that required him to spend any money on his AP, so I don't have that to deal with like others do. But even just the money we are spending on MC, MB programs, and now maybe even new wedding rings...which like I said pales in comparison to others who have had to leave profitable jobs, pay for extra residences, and deal with WS's who took WP's on fancy vacations, out for dinners, bought them gifts, etc. I cannot IMAGINE the resentment there, when I am resentful just for the money we are having to put into recovery. We had many yrs in our marriage where we struggled financially as H built his career. I always thought I will support him and sacrifice and eventually we will be in a better financial position and life will be better. Now here we are and we are having to dish out our FUN money to MC's and recovery work. Frustrating.

Excellent Radio clips from Dr. H on Resentment

Radio Clip #1

Radio Clip #2

This is one of the flaws with our expectations regarding maintenance costs.

When we buy a home we expect maintenance costs, new roofs, siding/paint, windows, furnace, doors, flooring, carpet, etc.... We dream, save, plan and build....

Why we don't have the same expectations with our marriages and families is beyond me! We expect to say "I DO" and it then takes care of itself, no maintenance required, right! And it's no wonder marriages flounder around as a result of this!

Have you ever seen a house on the side of the road that has not been updated for several decades? It's typically the one that looks like it's going to collapse..... Well that's what happens with our marriages when we just freeload, when we don't dream, save, plan and build it up.


Dr. Harley explains it as a "Renters" position when we do the least amount necessary to maintain it. Verses a "Buyers" position when we KNOW maintenance must occur and we dream, save, plan and build..... And love every minute of it!

Oh I am fine with maintenance costs, which to me would mean money for babysitters, date nights, dinners, recreational activities, trips together, gifts for each other, ...anything we would spend money on that would serve to meet each others needs. It is the money spent on NEW wedding rings when our first set should be cherished possessions, things that are in relation to adultery, that bother me.

I understand!

Here's an older thread that might give you some food for thought....
Link to thread HERE


FWIW, my wife still cherishes her wedding ring..... Each couple decides what's best for their marriage regarding these triggers!

I'm trying to understand where you are coming from and where you want to go with this line of questioning.

Getting new wedding rings to "expunge" the imaginings of where they had been during WH's affairs would be mostly your preference, right? (More on this below.) But if it would be done at your behest, to provide you comfort, how can you rationally RESENT the expenditure? If you would resent it, don't urge spending it.

Uhhh, there are other parts of your husband's possessions that also accompanied him on his trips to Skank-town. Clothing, vehicles, other jewelry, (and certain body-parts which shall be unnamed here). Would you envision formulating plans/demands to expunge those?

My W would take off her wedding rings from time to time during the A, and even after it was over, after exposure, becasue she was so pissed, going through withdrawal, etc.

A few days ago, she left the house for work without them on (she had taken them off prior becasue we were making meatballs...kinda a funny story).

Anyway, she called me on her way to work -- frantic, upset -- becasue she never wants to be without them now after the A...she turned around and I met her halfway with them, which made her late for work. Didn't matter to her, she wanted her rings.

Those rings are OURS -- NOT the OMs...call it spite or whatever, but we're not going to expunge the original symbol of our relationship for that POS...we'll wear them with pride, as a symbol of what a marriage really is...

It was a very nice moment, actually.

I am going nowhere with this line of questioning, just stating the fact that I have resentment over additional cost to our family due to adultery. Seriously, I cannot POSSIBLY be the only person to have ever said that.

I resent the fact that I am having to debate or feel the need to make the expenditure to replace rings, if the ONS had not happened I would not have to do so.

Since H's ONS happened almost a decade prior to him confessing it to me, our home, cars, clothes, and any other thing short from his person are already gone or YES, I would have a problem and want to get rid of those things too. As far as his body parts, clearly I have no control in that matter.

And why exactly would asking my WH to replace a wedding ring that caressed another woman be a DEMAND. I thought asking a WS to get rid of triggers was perfectly acceptable, I have heard many a story about burning furniture, selling vehicles and homes, etc. and have never heard of it referred to as a DEMAND before (which would qualify as a love buster and would not be acceptable right?).

Thanks for sharing your story helpfordad. I am torn about that very thing, like I said. The fact that it is a huge trigger, but also OUR wedding rings that symbolize OUR marriage. I did take it off his finger and hold it, read the inscription inside, etc. a couple nights ago which was a huge step for me, I doubt I have even touched it (purposely) for the last yr and a half.

NG, I just did the link to "My Story" on your sig. Realized I had read your story a month or so ago and it to me has been one of the most memorable stories on here (short from the fact that I didn't remember your name associated with it). It was very moving, very raw. I even discussed it with H at a time I wasn't really talking much about the forums. Thank you for sharing it. And I am not saying that to get you to stop being so hard on me either.

UW, the reason I asked the question is because some of us on MB post specifically to help our colleagues get from "here" to "there" with issues/problems.

Vents without expected answers/solutions are fine, of course. I just thought you were asking for help, and was trying to reframe the initial statement, to see if I had something to offer.

I thought asking a WS to get rid of triggers was perfectly acceptable...

All true, but yours would be, I think, the first post in which a BS was RESENTFUL of, as opposed to GRATEFUL to, the WS for complying.

And as for being hard on you - I'm hard on everyone!

Well thank you NG for trying to be helpful, you are helpful. Even you being hard on me is helpful and has caused some introspection on my part.

I am resentful to my WH for the MONEY that it will take from our family to replace rings. I am not resentful for his willingness to do it.

Regarding the resentment. I guess it was a good title for my thread, because I AM very resentful. Perhaps more than the average BS, it sounds like. Which is exactly what kind of help I was looking for by posting on here, because I'm not really sure how to NOT be resentful. I am not going to get into the specifics about my marriage, because everyone here has a story about how their needs weren't met including my H. I will just say that the ONS was the cherry on the icing of the cake of wrongdoing and there was plenty of resentment present even before I knew about that. And by the time the ONS came out my love bank was empty and filled with resentment. I know in my head I should be thankful that H is willing to change, willing to do things like buy new rings. Frankly I am not thankful, I EXPECT it. If he said no the big FU devil whispering in my ear would easily convince me to walk out the door. He has been very transparent, I read where WS's are NOT transparent and fight their BS for their phone, or whatever, and I think, if my H did that I would clock him with the phone, stomp on it until it was in pieces, pack his bags and toss them out the front door. I love him, I want to work things out, but I have no tolerance for lack of 'getting it' or going the gamut on his part. And I am willing to do the same for myself. Just still have this ANGER over everything and not really sure how to reign that in. So no, I guess I am not elated over the fact that he is willing to replace our rings, if he was anything less than willing I would be DONE. That's how I feel.

Good thing I was not called upon to do some Plan A because the women and men who do it have some kind of strength I don't. I am having this much anger over a decade old ONS, I cannot imagine what I would be like if H was in some long term A.

My friend, I only have a few minutes. Could I ask you to jump over to MikeStillSmiling's thread on this board, and read through it?

His FWW's affair was a lot more recent than your FWH's, but you seem to have the same issue as he (fortunately less frequently) does, in not being able to see that your FWS that you should be evaluating and dealing with TODAY, is not the one who had the affair in the PAST.

"better. Now here we are and we are having to dish out our FUN money to MC's and recovery work. Frustrating."

I can't think of a better investment in your lives. You will get much, much more out an investment in your marriage than you will anything else. A great marriage affects your quality of life like nothing else. There Is not much that is more important than that.

To tag on. Caring for Children Means Caring for Each other

If I were to give you $1,000,000 to stay in love for 10

Very, very good point. Something I will try very hard to focus on. I will read up on MikeStillSmiling.

LIKE. I am not real sure what affect a GREAT marriage has on quality of life, but I have a PhD in what a crappy marriage does to quality of life. Might as well see what the other side has to offer.

Just checking in, friend. I saw you popping in on some other threads, and the tone of your messages was significantly "lighter" than that with which you started this thread.

Are you making some progress in keeping separate your thoughts and feelings toward "new" hubby from those formerly associated with the "old" version?

Have you dedicated your efforts toward making the 15/20 hours per week of UA time a reality of your marriage?

Here's hoping you're making the most of the opportunities that MB opens up to couples.....

Hi NG thanks for checking in! Honestly I have many lighter days and a handful of really UNlight days (I'm sure you have a fancier word for that) where all the anger, resentment, etc. is at the top of my emotions. My H has a lifelong tendency to avoid, detach, or ignore any difficult emotional issues including anything involved with A's. I think if he were to enthusiastically engage in recovery I would be able to let go of much of what I am resentful for. If someone started a fire and then said they were really sorry and didn't mean to start the fire, but did NOTHING to put the fire out, you would tend to believe they were really not all that sorry for starting it in the first place. That's how I feel about his lack of action. Words are great, action is much better. The lack of action has really just made the resentment fester. I have been known to tell him "I will leave you for what you DON'T do long before I will leave you for what you did." As in, I'm not leaving because of the cheating but I will leave if you don't do anything to help us recover from it! So, about 2 months ago, right before I discovered these forums, I asked him for a D. I just had had enough of waiting around for him to initiate some recovery (why I would not initiate was a whole other resentment issue lol). He promised me he would do better, I discovered the forums and really started to jump in feet first and initiating some work on my own, and he is now starting to get excited about the opportunity to get recovery going too. So that's where we are at. Have a hard time trusting he will not just drift off into lala avoidance land when things get tough but here's to hoping that won't happen.

2 days ago I emailed H a UA schedule with 17.5 hours of scheduled UA time/week. He said it was very cold and logistical, lol. I said it HAS to be, we are definitely a couple that needs a schedule. The UA time included one lunch and one dinner date per week, working out together, and time each evening after kids are in bed for IC and SF. He said it looked great. The only thing I got a buck on was using workouts as RC time. RC is his #1 EN and he feels that working out does not satisfy it. But I didn't really mean for working out to 'satisfy' that need, I meant to just kill 2 birds with one stone so to speak by using our working out as UA time, AND having it count toward RC and PA. On his ENQ he said he did get the amount of RC he wanted and was satisfied with it, so I guess if working out is just additional RC time we will be good.

So yes we are working on it. Took a nice walk with the doggies last night kid free, then had a couple hours of good UA time after...and tomorrow night we have a 4 hr date lined up.

Good job on scheduling your UA time.

Dr. H recommends you make the schedule together. Can you do this? Then he can help decide what RC to do. Remember POJA.

Thanks BH. Well this was just a skeleton schedule to run off of, like things we could do every day as our regular schedule, and most of it is M-F. We have always done a LOT of RC (although majority with kids) during the weekends together, we like to play hard on the weekends! I left the weekend alone and that will all just be extra for the most part. So I guess to answer your question YES we can schedule it together and I certainly don't want to force him to do it my way. Like I said in my post he hasn't always been willing to take the bull by the horns on all this so I am just trying to get the ball rolling without waiting around for him to engage.

Sounds like you're on the right track. Good job.

One thing you can do if resentful thoughts begin to enter your head, is do a quick rundown in your head to see what is causing you to slip into negativity (conflict/withdrawal);

#1 (FIRST AND FOREMOST) Have you been adhering to 15+ hours of UA time if you are in a the state of intimacy, or 20+ if you are not?

#2 Is your spouse providing transparency and adhering to EPs?

#3 Are both of you adhering to Radical Honesty and PoJA?

Then, formulate a plan;

SCHEDULE 20+ hours of UA time in the following week. UA time should be just the two of you, and should be spent meeting the 4 Intimate Emotional Needs; Intimate Conversation, Affection, Recreational Companionship, Sexual Fulfillment.

Let your spouse know how they can better meet your top 3 ENs.

Ask your spouse how you can better meet their top 3 ENs.

Both spouses make sure Love Busters are eliminated.



If this does not improve your mood/mindset within a few weeks of strict adherence, consider an email to the radio show or a call to the coaching center.

Unwritten,
I saw you wrote this on vmmusa's thread and I responded to you there but figure you might not see it.
Is there anyway to find out your (friend)OW'S OM's name? Since his BW posted on here we could let her know her WH is still in contact with his OW?
Or the very least ask the MODS to notify her? Better yet her posting name? I just feel tor this BW thinking her and her WH are recovered and following

Apologize ahead of time for the t/j from above.

I have thought about this many times BH. So far I have only gotten the first name of my friends AP, and a sketchy time frame of when the A happened (before I knew her). She is not super forthcoming about the info, leading me to believe there is either more things to hide or given my own circumstances she is not really ever going to be forthcoming with ME. I tend to be a 'little' opinionated about wayward behavior these days... It also really bothers me, while going through my own MB recovery process, that this BS and her WH weathered this long term affair,went through recovery which is no small task, and even moved out of state although I don't know if the A was why they moved...and she may have no idea that he is still in contact with OW. Disturbing. I will keep my ears open and if there is any way I can help this BW I will.

What is a t/j?

Thread jack. I asked you a question from another post and it wasn't really following your thread here.

Thanks so much for answering. I hope you do find out his or her name so we could let the BW know. Thanks again.

Thanks HHH. Great advice. Since we have just begun trying to attempt to adhere to UA time I guess I am not sure what affect it will have on resentment, I am guessing as you suggest following the plan for recovery will have a dramatic impact. I think the plan of confusion and avoidance/withdrawal is what has made the resentment fester.

So we had a date night this weekend. Didn't go so well. We ended up discussing A's on both sides which created some triggers and movie playing on both sides, which created stress, resentment and withdrawal on both sides. Then came home to middle child having an hr and a half tantrum. Wasn't exactly the intimate night I was looking forward to! But, I was able to pull off some SF at the end to pull it all together again. Still disappointing though. When there is heavy relationship and affair discussions to be had, how do we have those discussions, say how we feel about things, without having that sequence of events take place? I cannot discuss my H's ONS without starting to shake violently and fight back tears and withdraw. And likewise he cannot discuss the things I have done without being very hurt and withdrawn. Hard to turn it around when we both fall into that pattern at the same time. What's your suggestion there on how to have these hard emotional discussions without love busting or withdrawing?

Thanks I will NEVER learn all of these acronyms!!! No problem at all!

What's your suggestion there on how to have these hard emotional discussions without love busting or withdrawing?

A currently relevant historical analogy:

Q: I am the captain of a large passenger vessel, and would like advice on how to prevent my ship from sinking next time after ripping open four of the watertight compartments on hitting an iceberg!

A: Captain Smith, next time, MISS the damn iceberg!

UW, you and hubby cannot "talk" about the infidelities on both sides WITHOUT generating disquietude and unpleasant feelings. (On another note, if you COULD do so, your marriage would be suffering from an entirely different set of problems - centered on apathy.) We're not discussing hitting a road hazard, and damaging tires. We're addressing each of you realizing your own guilt in trying to destroy your union, and analyzing the other's efforts to do the same. There is no way to do that "nicely".

STOP IT!

Tough to do. If there are unanswered questions about the affairs that would be beneficial to discuss, schedule time to discuss them, but not during scheduled date/UA time. I had to get out of bad habit of saying things like "Why did you do this for scumbag but not for me?" and change them to "why don't you ever want to initiate SF with me?".

Don't know if that helps, but food for thought.

Tough to do.

Yup.

Ya know what's tougher? Staying in the rut of re-hashing "your infidelity/my infidelity" and NEVER getting out to move the marriage ahead.

And as an aside...."Why don't you ever want to initiate SF with me?" is admittedly an improvement from your first stage, but can you formulate an approach that is less....caustic?

Caustic? Suggestions?

One minute I'm talking about marital recovery, the next minute, large vessels hitting ice bergs...so what do you mean by 'stop it?' Do you mean not talk about our history? I understand the UA time, working to meet each others EN's, no love busting...but there IS some degree of discussing or dealing with the history to the moving on isn't there?

Thank you IP. Everything helps. Our scheduled UA time IS our time to discuss things (ie time away from little ears), but we have decided to make sure we schedule discussing unpleasant things for certain nights and leave the rest for fun. Things do have a tendency to come up on their own though (triggers, etc). Just thought I might get some suggestions for avoiding the downward spiral of events that can take place when they do.

Add to my '30 days to a better vocab' list...compliments NeverGuessed...disquietude and caustic.

Our daily SF plan is one thing I have stuck to like glue, even after a crabby date and child meltdown, and it makes me oh so happy! And motivated, positive, etc. The affects of having EN's met, I guess.

UW, Dr Harley's suggestion is to never bring it up again once you have all the truth. Continually bringing it up keeps the affair on the front burner and keeps you both upset. Harley tells people to not talk about it.

Thanks ML. I am trying to think of scenarios of when it would come up. For instance, if you have some kind of trigger occur, see something while you are out together, on a date night for instance, that reminds you of the A and you get emotional. Should you not speak about that? What if your spouse says, whats going on I can see something is bothering you, should you say nope, nothing, even though thats not true just to avoid bringing the A up? Seems to go against the concept of radical honesty. Not saying this comes up every time we are out or every conversation, but it does come up. Also for me, I am a talker. I like to talk it out. If I am having a bad day thinking about things, and I put a voice to it, makes me feel a lot better. Bottling it up just causes me more stress. Even if you have all the details/truth ironed out, there are just days I want to talk about it, feelings regarding it, etc. And that doesn't usually end up in a spat, just so happened last weekend it did. But even if it doesn't it is not a fun happy conversation of course. So am I not supposed to do that? How does this all apply to Dr Harley's principle of not talking about it?

If you have a trigger, don't talk about the affair. Simply tell him that you are having bad memories and it will blow over. RAdical honesty does not mean that you talk about every unpleasant thought that crosses your mind.

When you have triggers, it is better to change your thoughts to something pleasant than talk about it. Talking about it makes it WORSE for you not better.

The affair should never be brought up again once all the facts are known.

Talking about unpleasant things keeps the tragedy in the present and that causes more stress. It will take you forever to recover if you are talking about it. The less you talk about it, the faster it will fade into the background, I promise! Train yourself to think of something else when it comes up and whatever you do, don't talk about it!

Here's another Dr. H article, about "keep talking about the affair".

From here Coping With Infidelity Part 3: Restoring the Marital Relationship

Ok. This is kindof taking the topic elsewhere, but here's my blogging thoughts about all this. Not sure if there will be a question in here or just a long comment about what I have been going through, and I'm sure it is COMMON among betrayed.

One of my biggest issues with the ONS and getting over it, moving on, or even not talking about it anymore was this. I felt like WH did not GET IT. Yes he understood it was damaging, no he would not choose to do it again. Yes he wanted to work toward recovery. But did he really, really, understand what having sex with another woman did to me, and to our marriage??? I threw up for 12 hrs straight after he told me, until I was throwing up blood. Could he ever understand how devastating something is to have that kind of physical response to it? I feel like a precious stone in our marriage, you know the one called fidelity, represented by having intimate moments and sex only betweeen the two of you, was stolen a decade before and I didn't even know it, and now it was GONE, FOREVER. We really could never get that special thing back again. Did he understand that? Did he understand his A and AP would be the white elephant in the room for the rest of our lives??? That he had crossed a line that could not be uncrossed? Yes I know we can move on, work toward a happy marriage DESPITE the ONS but it will always be there, somewhere, lurking in the shadows. Did he understand the MAGNITUDE of that? Yes he regrets it, of course. I don't care if she was the most beautiful woman and best sex in the world (she wasn't, of course) it isn't worth it, but simply having regret because it didn't pan out and being willing to move on was just not enough for me. I guess thats why I wanted to continue to talk about it over the course of time, because I wanted him to see the damage it had caused ME and US and UNDERSTAND just how far reaching that damage was. Know what I mean? I know this sounds vindictive and brow beating, maybe it is. I just felt like, sorry...was not good enough. In that case, one might have all the details and even have an apology, but how do you move on and work toward recovery when you feel your spouse has NO CLUE of just how hurtful and damaging their actions were. And in my case when he says he 'didn't even think about me, didn't even remember he was married...' how do I accept the fact that he doesn't understand how damaging it truly was so he can REMEMBER HE IS MARRIED the next time. IMO, I am in support of almost all MB principles and actions. But no matter how high you build the walls, there will be somewhere, sometime, that an opportunity will present itself again, and then it will come down to personal character and what you choose to do, whether you choose to cheat again or not. Just my opinion.

Anyway, it has been a year and a half since I found out about the ONS. It was BEFORE finding out about the ONS that we had a session with Steve and also bought the home program. Honestly, I was just not ready to 'put the past in the past' so to speak and work to meet each others EN's. H was still lying to me, for one, and I knew it! How the heck was I supposed to not go back and rehash when I knew that there were still lies. Wish I had you all in my back pocket at that time to push me to do a poly... H had no idea what kind of mass destruction he had done in our marriage back then. I was not OK after yrs of deception just saying that's ok H, now you are ready to commit so lets just start working on meeting each others EN's, I'll just start cleaning the house more after a decade of your selfish and destructive behavior and we'll just move on. Thats why I kept bringing it up, I needed him to understand the gravity. I think he does now, the best that he can anyway, which is why I am ready to move on.

Shew! That was quite a vent. Sorry. I know this post makes me sound like a battle ax, walking around here bringing up all his wrongdoings on a daily basis, brow beating him with them. I don't think that is the case. Mostly, I've just been sad and in mourning. We really have not talked about his ONS much at all, due to his detachment problems, but I have wanted to and this is why. I just want to know he understands the gravity of the situation. I guess so I can feel like he won't ever do it again, if the opportunity does present itself. In my case, with a ONS, this wasn't a long term affair with a bunch of needs being met. It was a ONS with a girl he hardly knew and wasn't even attracted to. And trust me, it was NOT because his need for SF was going unmet, he has had all the SF he has ever wanted on a silver platter. No matter what we do to avoid other people filling each other's EN's, the opportunity to pick up a girl for a ONS could easily happen again. Guess thats why I need to feel like he gets it. Now I need to stop previewing this because I just keep adding more...

I don't know ML I am having a hard time being convinced on this one. For instance, knowing my H cheated on a business trip, and that he came home and gave me his work clothes to wash...which I used to love because they smelled like him and I love the way he smells...and that I handled his laundry that might have HER or HIM AND HER together on it (which I will not elaborate on) and just happily washed his dirty laundry and dirty little secret away like the dumb wife at home...that is something I STILL think about every time I wash his work clothes. Not that I'm saying I should call him up every time I do the laundry and tell him about it...just saying I feel like he should know that I think about that every time I wash his work clothes, in others words, know how hurt I am and how far reaching it is. I would think that is exactly what radical honesty is, sharing that I struggle with that. Am I making any sense here...probably not but I am thinking I should talk to him about getting his work clothes taken to the cleaners from now on...

PLUS, isn't talking about our A stories on HERE talking about it? That has been nothing but helpful and therapeutic for me. I don't know this seems a lot like the good ol days when people were told to just put traumatic experiences in the vault in their head and 'move on' and never talk about it again. I just feel like that is far more damaging than TALKING about it is. I actually read on some website while doing research on 'getting over affairs' or some such thing that you could not tell someone you would forgive them unless you were willing to NEVER talk about their A again. Never. Although I can imagine forgiveness (not quite there yet, clearly), I cannot imagine never referencing the most traumatic event in my life again.

But he doesn't need to know, that is my point. Radical honesty does not mean that you need to voice every passing thought. All that does is escalate the trigger. The affair should never be brought up again once you have all the facts. Constantly bringing it up keeps you triggered and only serves as a lovebuster to you both.

You don't use radical honesty to harm your marriage, it should be used to HELP your marriage.

(I really did read all the posts from my last offering, and didn't just jump to the final line in your most recent one!)

Although I can imagine forgiveness (not quite there yet, clearly), I cannot imagine never referencing the most traumatic event in my life again.

Imagine you have a huge, ugly, suppurating wound, now bandaged. Every day, because it was such a traumatic event in your life, you insist on peeling off the bandage, concurrently pulling the scab off the just-beginning-to-close wound. EVERY day! For YEARS! Would you express surprise that the wound never QUITE seems to heal?

There are several BHs on this board whose path you seem intent on following. Approximately every few months they each go into their version of "How could she have done this to me?" And we here patiently put them back on the recovery track. It has been going on so long, we almost have a code worked out:

Alpha - Yes, she failed (in the past) to honor your marriage and her vows.
Beta - She has been faithfully trying to heal your pain, and has acted in good faith as a proper spouse since your crisis.
Gamma - Nothing she can do now can eradicate what she did in the past.
Delta - Your bringing it up AGAIN is keeping the bad old times alive in your marriage.

Replace "she" with "he" in the above, and take that to heart.

No, it is not therapeutic at all to wallow in misery. That is how people stay STUCK and sick. People who have been through tragedies do much better emotionally [in studies] when they don't talk about it than those who do. What you should be talking about here are SOLUTIONS, not about the affair.

Talking about tragedies of the past keeps people sick and enmeshed in their pain. Instead, stop talking about it and start focusing on ways to make the present and future GREAT.

You need to do more than imagine it, you need to stop it!! IT is harmful to you and your marriage. I personally dragged out the recovery of my marriage by bringing it up continually. That made me SAD and made my H feel terrible. Bringing up mistakes of the past is a LOVEBUSTER and you can't hide behind RH to commit lovebusters.


If you want to recover, commit to never mentioning it again.

UW,

Please heed what Mel and NG are saying...it is gospel.

Trust me -- follow their lead...

There is no better advice than what was just written above.

The only way that vicious cycle of asking about the affair to anger to yelling to fighting is end is to stop asking about it. What we want is for the story to change, that it never really happened. Well it did.

So now the thing to do is drop the past (it sucked anyway) and make today and tomorrow great.

It sounds good when i say it. And its better when i actually do it.

OK. Maybe what I am doing is venting here. OF COURSE in the grand scheme of things bringing up anything painful is...painful, and doesn't make life fun and grand. But the reality is those painful feelings are there whether you discuss them or not, is it better to just let them fester? So the WS does the cheating, which is devastatingly harmful to the BS and M. Say in the perfect world, they have one conversation about the A and get all the relavant information out there. Then, the BS is supposed to just say ok whats done is done and I see it was because I was not meeting your needs, so lets learn what our needs are and we will do better to meet those needs from now on. And from that moment forward just jumps in to try and make their BS, who hurt them DEARLY, as happy as a clam so they won't stray again. Ya you are all hearing the resentment festering here, that sounds great on paper but emotionally sounds really, really unfair. Almost like positive reainforcement for a really really negative and damaging behavior. You cheated. You did all this harm and damage. And now, you get to confess and then the very next day NEVER HAVE TO HEAR ABOUT IT AGAIN, and instead, your hurt and betrayed spouse goes above and beyond trying to meet your needs in a way they have never done before. If all of you were ready to do that the day you got all the information, then you are better people than me because that makes me feel just a little bit like WH got away with highway robbery with practically no reprecussion except that at the end he gets a much better marriage than he had before. Frankly, anything I am willing to do now I would have been willing to do at ANY TIME during our marriage, it did not require an affair. I know I am just venting here about the injustice of it all. This is how I felt for a very long time, and I don't think I would have been ready to do the MB program before I was ready to be done with it. I've never thought of myself as one who wanted to carry a grudge, but apparently I am.

RH seems to be used only in certain circumstances, IMO. Yes tell about affairs you've had, even if your spouse will never know about them and they don't particularly bother you, turning your marriage upside down. But no don't talk about emotions that may be painful if they make things uncomfortable...just my opinion. I do agree with RH but I think it should apply to your feelings and emotions too.

You are missing the entire point of forgiveness and the MB way to recovery, UW.

(Here's where I traditionally get into BIG trouble, because I can give full vent to my positions when discussing with males, but come across as "overbearing" when a female is the target on my exposition.)

YOU have to do the heavy lifting here. It IS unfair. It can seem like the cheater is getting the lighter burden. All that said.....who CARES?

This is not a board-game you're playing. This is the rest of your life in the balance. This is where you "man-up" and get to work. Remember I entered this thread by cajoling you into not trying to attempt recovery via "MB-Lite". You quoted me chapter and verse of the books, on-line programs, and counselling you've engaged in. Interesting, but irrelevant, because you haven't "bought in" to the need to work hard, maybe even struggle, to supplant your innate need for...restitution? equivalent WH suffering?...with a commitment to doing what is best done NOW.

Back to the ocean-liner...."Get in a tiny lifeboat? I should say NOT! Someone else had better fix the hole in this ship! I spent a small fortune on a 1st-class stateroom, and I'll be damned if I'll crawl into that little wooden rowboat instead of...(glub, glub, glub)"

?????


http://www.marriagebuilders.com/graphic/mbi3900_honesty.html


Don't use "honesty" as a justification to beat your husband with a cheater stick.


Well... I mean, you can... good luck with the divorce though.

'Round these parts, folks to marriage building and recovery, not perpetual beatings of a spouse with the affair stick.

GREAT post, NG.

Thank you!!!

NG you crack me up! I can take it like a man so overbear away.

OK, lets take your open wound analogy. Say you are in a bad, bad car accident. One where you almost lose your life. You have a scar that will be with you forever. Yet, as it is healing, even after it is healed, you are to NEVER SPEAK OF THE CAR ACCIDENT. Nope, can't think about, refer to, or discuss it...too painful. That, to me, is ridiculous thinking. Stuffing it into a vault and pretending it didn't happen, wasn't a part of your life, and you have no more feelings about it, which is exactly what I feel like this advice is, makes absolutely no sense.

And for the record, I am NOT missing the point. I vent to you with residual feelings that I have had and to some extent wallow in yes, but I am here in the last couple months because I am ready to give all that resentment up once and for all. I am ready to let go of the ... need for restitution, equivalant WH suffering, JUSTICE... and just move forward on recovery. And be the driver of the boat, which is exactly what I have been. Fair? No. I have given up on fairness already. Ask my H, who I have, in the last two months, been primarily happy and positive, even hopeful to, in a way that he has commented on multiple times. Vs the negative and resentful hopeless attitude I have been wallowing in for the last couple yrs. I know to have the marriage I want I have to let the fairness of it all go, eventually forgive and yes, jump into recovery with two feet. Just took me awhile to get there (and still working on it, but doing much better...).

OK I'll admit calling me a taker because I don't keep the house clean was a little hurtful...but I got over it. I actually took that to heart, and have committed to doing much better at this whole housewifey thing.

Oh great one, although I love your posts and respect your opinion greatly, I would love the details on these studies. I really don't buy it.

You can go find these exact sentiments in my original thread way back on the SAA forum.

We all have these exact thoughts.

I once referred to it as a the Poop Sandwich we get to eat for ever. You can choose NOT to eat it by taking one route. Or belly up to the bar and chow down. Hint: It gets less distasteful in very short time.

Sorry for the crass, very unNG-like in my description.

But, what I have found is when I practice MB techniques full-on, not half-a$$ed, but full on I do not get the 'she got away with murder' thoughts. Im able to see into her eyes and know that she KNOWS what she did and is in way worse shape than me.

And its because I learned what she was missing and she learned what I was missing. We agreed to improve on those things. I set up a method by which Im protected from it happening again. She went ahead and did a 100 things to ensure my safety.

Marriage Builders gives you dignity as the Betrayed at a time when you may not have much left.

(On a separate note and I fully understand your passion, better believe I do. Can you write in paragraphs going forward?

Much easier to read. But dont lose that passion.)

OK I get the 'don't beat your WH with a cheater stick.' I understand how that can not go on, and on, and on. But discussions can take many forms, and this is only one of them. The advice I am getting is to NEVER speak of it again. Never. Not in any form. I disagree with that advice.

And...how does 'but once you get all the relevant details this does not apply' work in regards to this? Then, based on advice, I should NOT reveal my emotional reactions...to my spouse's behavior.

Thanks for your compassion and understanding of my position MSS...and I will work on my paragraphs. (They are paragraphs, just really big longggg paragraphs.)

I am choosing now to not sit and chow down, just trying to say this is where I've been for a good long time and this is how I'm coming in the door. Know what I mean. I know I need to 'man up' as NG says, leave the resentment behind and just work the program. Get in the lifeboat. I know I know...

OK I get the 'don't beat your WH with a cheater stick.' I understand how that can not go on, and on, and on. But discussions can take many forms, and this is only one of them. The advice I am getting is to NEVER speak of it again. Never. Not in any form. I disagree with that advice.


To what end will you get if you continually ask about?

Different forms? Like in Spanish? Can anyone translate, "did you screw her in our car?" for UW.

Its the same answer: si or yes.

You see? You already know that which you want to know. Now, if you havent gotten all 'need to knows' immediately after ddday, thats a horse of a different color.

Id need MB clarity on this, but I believe you'd advise your husband that you have unanswered questions and you cannot to put this thing behind you except for them. Id tell him you have 6, 10, or 22 questions (whichever). give him the option of an oral exam or in writing.

Cleary you things eating at you that you cannot ignore.

THEN YOU ARE NEVER, EVER TO BRING UP ANYTHING PRE-DDAY AGAIN.

Thought the same thing...NEVER speak of it again? (read my thread. I've had Marital all over me for this, and rightfully so).

Yup.

All it does it keep alive the very thing I'm trying to move away from.

Irony: my W is more attentive to it than I am -- she can either just see it in my eyes, or all I have to say is that I'm having a moment.

Then, we move forward.

Well there are many unanswered questions. Because it happened almost a decade before I found out about it, and according to WH he was hammered. Both of those things combined mean many many questions were answered with "I don't remember." Which sucks but is logical.

Honestly I think it is more the fact that I didn't feel like he understood the damage, rather than rehashing the details. You say you can see in your wifes eyes that she gets it, is very remorseful, etc. and I have not been blessed with that revelation. That lack of 'getting it' is what has driven me to want to keep bringing it up and beating him with the cheater stick.

OK I often will do that, and just say "I'm having a bad day." But what I WANT to say (and don't, don't everyone jump all over me here...) is "I'm having a bad day because I can't get the thought of you having sex with another woman out of my mind..." in detail. But I don't! But I'm really not talking about that kind of browbeating, I know thats a huge lovebuster and I don't think I've ever done much of that. More the calmly saying "had a flashback just now driving by hotels in A city, wondering which one you and AP were in." WHY? Because I want him to know it still impacts me, I still think about it. I want him to know the damage. And because I am thinking that, and it greatly affects me and I think as my spouse he should know that. And because (NG getting back on the sinking ship here...) why should he, who it was meaningless to, never have to think about it again when I have to think about it all the time??? Not fair. OK I said it, guess thats why this thread is all about getting over resentment. I'm here! And I want to. I'm taking the steps too, just not an overnight process I guess.

But your husband's current behavior doesn't include an affair, does it?

What do you expect from him? What exactly does he need to do or say to make this "all better" for you? And how many times does he need to say it or do it?

I can relate to what you're saying because I was guilty of the same thing at the beginning of our recovery and in fact, that's part of the reason I found MB. Before MB I found other sites that told me to divorce him or to suck it up. None of them had a plan how to come out of this with a better marriage.

At the time, I couldn't let go of the awful thing he did and it was ruining our recovery. I was pushing him away. Why would he want to recover with a wife who was never going to let him forget what he did? Who wants to live like that?

After reading on MB for awhile I finally got it. It was me! My husband was more than willing to do whatever was necessary but I would constantly sabotage things when we made any progress. Heaven forbid that he ever forgot what he did. Oh no, I couldn't have that. He hurt me! He needed to pay! The cycle was nuts.

Once I stopped that nonsense and focused on TODAY, things started really turning around for us. Now I can't remember the last time either one of us mentioned the affair(s) or triggered. We would have never healed had I insisted on talking about the past and I would probably be divorced today. Instead, we're celebrating our 35th this year, surrounded by kids and grandkids and we're more in love (and loving) now than we've ever been.

I agree with meggy.

Also, I think it was HHH who implored me to remember the following:

Present. Future.

That's my focus.

One last thing, and I hope this comes out right becasue the vets describe this better than I can....don't underestimate the personal destruction, guilt, remorse, etc. that the WS feels. If WE think WE feel bad, remember that no matter what we did to contribute to the environment of the marriage, WE can un-do that behavior -- WSs can never un-do what they did.

And they know it.

In response to both PM and HFD, what I am looking for is remorse. My WH, upon disclosure of the last of a long line of trickle truths, although he said he was sorry and understood the damage did not display that through action. Not that I have reason to believe there is any current A's. But that he didn't do anything proactive to try and 'fix' the mess we had.

I have made this analogy before. If someone starts a house on fire, then as its burning says they are sorry they did it, but picks up a magazine and sits down to read while it blazes around then, rather than grab a bucket and start putting the fire out...you tend to believe they really aren't that sorry for starting it in the first place. Thats how my WH has responded to any of his actions. Yes I'm sorry, but...I'm not going to do anything to put the fire out. Just try not to start any more fires. Leaves me feeling like he is less than remorseful and doesn't quite get the fact that the raging fire is going to burn the house down.

What I expect from him PM is REMORSE. I expect him to 'get it' if you know what I mean, understand what he did and what work will need to be done to fix it. I do not expect him to go back to daily life, just forget about it, sweep it under the rug, and pretend that we can just go on status quo. Avoid. Detach. Thats what he has done. Not actively engage in recovery.

My WH was not 'more than willing to do whatever it takes' as it sounds like both of your WS's were. Honestly, for a month or two after finding out about his ONS I was positive, excited that this might be the catalyst after a long marriage of deception, to push us into recovery. If he had committed to recovery then, we would probably never have gone through the last yr and half of resentment brewing. But he didn't. And here I am, trying to start over with or without his enthusiastic water pitching.

I am already starting to put water on the fire, and asking him politely to please pitch in. He is, from his chair, starting to scoop little cupfuls in his Caribou container and pitch it in the general direction of the fire, so its progress. But it took me a long time to get to where I wanted to put water on the fire instead of give him Plan FU and walk out and watch his house burn down around him. Know what I mean?

I guess I'm just venting. I know what it will require from me, I am just saying that it has taken a LONG time for me to be mentally prepared to do that.

Guess I already answered this. Not to beat a dead horse. I don't think all WS's know it. I don't think mine did. Hopefully he does now, guess I am just moving forward regardless.

Also, you are all awesome! I love having support from all of you who have 'been there, done that.' I know I am totally stubborn. I hear what you are all saying, I know I need to LET IT GO. And just focus on today and tomorrow. I know it. Hard to do but I know I must. Sorry for being so stubborn and thank you all for trying to talk me down from the resentment podium:)

Exactly!! However, that doesn't mean that you use your "emotional feelings" as a battering ram to bring up mistakes of the past. You should never bring up the affair again. That helps you in every way, because talking about it brings the unpleasantness of the past into the present. That keeps you AND your husband miserable.

CAn you imagine how it would feel if you made a mistake and had to hear about it every day? Of course that wouldn't be healthy for your marriage.

Talking about it helps NOTHING and no one.

UW -- Not sure if it was posted ... your 10+ years of limping along in an after adultery marriage may take another 2-5 years to fully recover.

This is where your husband must step up to the plate to heal you. Each time you are triggered to have an emotion to the adultery ... write it down ... making sure you are eliminating ALL of them.

Something to consider is your high need for SF ... since this emotional need was given away to a skank by your husband ... that may be why some deep resentment is built there. The goal now is to figure out what your husband can do to give you just compensation here.

This may be a great question for Dr. Harley. Usually you read on here how BH have such a difficult time with the SF due to the WW, but I believe Dr. Harley can shed some great light on what just compensation your WH can do in order to eliminate some of the resentment.

Tough~

It was not posted, thank you. That's a long time.


I'm confused by this, because I have been getting advice all day to get the details, then never discuss the adultery again. Do you mean write it down to share with him? Or write it down for myself? And what are the steps to take to eliminate them?


I agree that there is also a correlation to my high need for SF and some of the resentment. Seems pretty common from what I read in other threads, although generally, like you said, the BH and not the BW. I have heard lots of people say EA's are worse than PA's because there is some form of companionship, vs just sex. Oh no for me PA's are a hundred times worse. I have met H's need for that since the beginning of time. He has not only not met my needs, but has used SF to manipulate me to get his way in the past. Total role reversal. But to know that I was meeting that need VERY well, yet he was not meeting it for me, and then he went out to get it met by some nasty girl who was no where near as attractive as me is a HUGE issue for me. And frankly doesn't even make sense. Get excited about the housekeeper, then, I might understand more.

How can he give me just compensation for this? I have no idea. He hasn't really stepped up to the plate to try in the SF arena. Of course we have had issues since DDay and I have not been as engaged as I normally am, but I have recently changed that and started initiating and engaging daily again. I have, he has not. I am just trying to chalk that up to it being a greater need for me, and the way it will always be. If that is the case how will I get just compensation there?

Write it down for yourself.

Examples ...
i.e. drive by Holiday Inn and become enraged ... try to avoid them
i.e. see roses and become enraged ... make sure to not look in Isle 12 & 13 at store due to flower section.

As time goes on and your husband has worked hard to heal you ... these triggers may not have the same impact.

Dr. Harley will have solution's for you please email him with your concerns.


Your husband has to step up to the plate to help heal you, otherwise you will have an awful marriage, die by 1000 cuts, and live a miserable life.

UW, I am remembering now that we had a discussion about the fact that you never follow thru with the poly despite the fact that you have been trickle truthed and your H has had several affairs, right?

Did you ever ask him for that poly? That could be why you (and he) are stuck if he hasn't come completely clean about his secret second life...

Hi SQ. Yes, you are correct. I have never followed through with the poly. But since that revelation he has been asking to take one, to make sure that I can move forward knowing I know everything. And in our most recent conversations I have also asked take one, so he knows the same. No appointments made yet, but it will be done within the next month or two.

Not sure what the reason for the delay is but all I will say is just get it out of the way and move to the next part of recovery. Delays increase the risk you will never follow through which you have a history of.

FWIW - my STBX was agreed to the poly two times (2007 and 2011) and both times he was bluffing me...

Have you listened to these radio clips?
Radi clip
Radio clip

"You don't have to do what your resentment is telling you to do." - Dr. Harley, second clip, 01:18 mark

I think that about says it all. In your case, UW, those actions that would wisely be avoided would include obsessively rehashing the awful events of the affair (and let's not forget "resenting" instead of "cherishing" any new wedding rings, etc).

Creating alternative strategies for re-directing your thoughts from unhelpful to helpful focuses would make YOUR life easier, friend, and YOUR recovery faster and more certain.

Wow. These are Words of Wisdom I am living by. Thanks, NG

My most recent problems have not really been with resentful attitudes towards my H (although I sure have found time to vent about them on here!). But since I have been working on MB principles and 'recovery' I have had about one day a week where I just want to throw in the towel. Like, why I am trying to save this sinking ship again??? I love the man but seriously, it does seem like a LOT of work to do for someone who has spent our ENTIRE MARRIAGE lying to me. And before you all jump all over me, let me just say I am not necessarily unwilling to do the work. The UA time, meeting needs, etc. sound WONDERFUL and I will love every minute of doing that...I guess I just don't trust that he will ever fully commit to it or stick with it, and then I will just spend an exhausting number of years trying to bail out a sinking ship by myself. Unfortunately, I have always shared this with him which isn't really helping in the recovery process. I know I tell him way too much of what goes on in the old noggin sometimes.

Common? Do other people in recovery question WHY once in awhile? I have a couple friends who went through some marital problems during our last couple yrs of craziness and they divorced, and at least one is happily remarried again. Some days, sounds simpler to implement my newfound knowledge of MB principles in a new relationship than in a very very damaged one.

Uhhhh, there's only one question here, UW, and I don't think we can answer it:

Like, why I am trying to save this sinking ship again???

You continue to spin on the same pivot-point, flip-flopped daily:

I resent having to do this amount of work, because my damaged marriage may not be worth it.

I don't mind doing the work, but my damaged marriage STILL is not worth it.

I love the man but seriously, it does seem like a LOT of work to do for someone who has spent our ENTIRE MARRIAGE lying to me.

The use of "but" effectively negates the entire opening clause. If you loved him, you'd more readily accept the task, you'd want to heal your marriage for HIS benefit.

I'll repeat myself from my other post: It's not fair.

It will never BE fair. If you insist upon fairness, immediate freedom from resentment for past offenses, and and a greatly reduced burden, you're going to have to start over in another marriage.

Hmm. Thank you NG food for thought, as always.

Well, so far things are going ok'ish. H has changed a lot of his behaviors, is thinking of me more, actively pursuing some UA time with me, etc. Still feel like there is a long way to go. We are not getting the recommended UA time and H is not on board with getting into the online program where we have a coach to hold us accountable. Unfortunately. He thinks we just need to 'do it' which is all fine and dandy if we DID which we don't, everything else seems to stand in the way.

Yesterday we had a little setback. In MC about 3/4 of the way in, I had a little internal panic attack. I am not sure what brought it on really. I just all of a sudden, in the midst of a conversation, felt trapped, claustrophobic, like I needed to get out of there. I felt overwhelmed with the amount of work and the high walls and the nitpicking every interaction we have to make sure there are no love busters and everything is hunky dorry. I just felt like it shouldn't have to be so hard to be loving and respectful to each other. But apparently it is. IDK. I immediately went cold, and the MC and my H both asked me what was going on. I said nothing, but then when we were leaving I said (stupidly) 'don't you ever just feel like this is a lot of work?' I know I should have kept the trap shut, it just slipped out. Then I tried to explain myself and things only got worse. H was hurt by it, obviously.

This is not the first moment or day where I have felt this way. It's not resentment, its more apathy, like I just don't want to fight anymore. Funny that I finally get what I want, which is him investing in recovery, and now I don't really know if I want it anymore. Sometimes, other times I want it 100%. How do you explain that. Sometimes I just feel like, after a decade of being treated poorly and deceived, a year and a half of trickle truth, another year and half of waiting for him to fight for me...I just wrapped my mind around the fact that being without him would be easier than being with him and I kind of moved on. Again, that is how I feel sometimes, but not all the time. Other times I am happy and excited about recovery.

It ended with a little spat, him telling me for the hundredth time that he was really struggling not to withdraw from me, which is his standard form of handling uncomfortable situations. Which usually panics me but this time annoyed me. He knows I expect that from him from past experience, and that I FEAR that's what he will do, because if he does its all over. For some reason he feels the need to keep reminding me that he has to constantly fight withdrawing. To keep me on my toes, to keep me in the panic? For leverage? Or just to be honest about his emotions. IDK.

And of course I asked for sex. Somehow it just seems to make everything a little better. He said no, then told me he was sure it would be used against him in the future, how he was 'withholding sex' again. No, I just wanted to be close to him this time.

Sometimes I feel like recovery is a pipe dream.

Can you guys sit down and schedule UA time in advance? Have you ordered any of the the materials that you can do at home?


I don't think you should have kept your "trap" shut but I do think you should have mentioned it when it occurred so that the reason could be found and addressed with the MC's help.


I've been feeling like this lately. Now that we have what we want, we question if it is worth it. I think we need to let that wall down and allow our WH's fill that Love Bank. When that happens, we will feel it is worth it! Most of the time, I am happy that we are back together again

Sounds like a lovebusting going on here. Do you have the Lovebusters book? I just got mine in the mail and started reading it.

Hugs and good luck to you.

~RQ

Thanks Rocketqueen.

The first couple of weeks I scheduled UA time, but we did not follow through with it. Some of it was workout times in the mornings and H was not too excited about working out, so I went out running by myself and he went out and walked the dog by himself and we actually passed each other on the street one day. Not exactly UA time. Our evening UA time has been thrown for a loop because all of our kids have bdays within a couple weeks of each other, so we have had one party after another, dance, you know all the evening things that get in the way. We have stuck to our date nights and weekly lunches though. Things are about to slow down so hopefully we can schedule more UA time soon.

In 2010 we bought the home study course, and did a session with Steve. At the time H was still lying to me/trickle truthing and in my gut I knew it, so I was NOT ready to work on recovery until I knew the truth about my life. It was a tough time for me. Needlesstosay we did not follow through with the course at that time. But we have read the books, or at least I have I don't remember what H all read.

I should have mentioned it in MC. It was really like a panic attack and I just needed to get out of there and get some fresh air. Was almost like the MC was stifling me, IDK. That's why I didn't then, but I will next week.

Funny you should say that about letting the wall down because my H has said he feels I do not accept his love. And last night he said I am not responding to his progress. I don't want him to feel that way but I guess to some extent it is true. How do you get rid of that wall? Guess that is what this thread is all about to some extent, clearly I haven't figured it out yet.

Why don't you walk the dog together as UA time? UA is so VIP to a good marriage and to work the program.

Have you sat down and scheduled with your WH?

Is your MC pro MB? If not they can do more damage than harm. Maybe that could be a reason for the panic attack? Are you rehashing over the affairs in MC?

My H also suffers from panic attacks and so I understand them.

Have you tried this How to find a good Marriage counselor

We have walked the dog together in the evenings for UA time. Mornings are hard because we still have a little one home asleep, need one parent here with him. That morning my older daughter was home and awake and in charge, but that is not common. The plan was to work out together, in the basement where we have a workout area, still here but with kids asleep. Really want to stick with that plan, I have had a lazy winter and need to get back to regular workouts.

No in past I have been the one scheduling it and just sending him the schedule. I know we need to sit down and schedule it together. Even then it isn't a matter of scheduling as much as a matter of follow through.

Our MC did not seem familiar with MB at first. I think he has researched the principles now since I talk about MB things incessantly and he knows we are following the MB program. At first I was an MB snob so to speak and was just waiting for him to contradict MB principles so I could pounce him, lol. But he never did. He has been supportive of the principles. The only negative thing I have heard him say about it was disbelief that anyone could actually find 15-25 hours of UA time a week. My response to that is, if there are people who do it, and there are, it can be done. So no we are not rehashing the A's, he is supportive of getting our questions answered and then moving on. This week we discussed an episode which I should have posted about on here, where I had to look at my own boundaries around men and re evaluate them. And our newfound MB belief about strong boundaries around the opposite sex. He was supportive of having very strict boundaries.

I don't really suffer from panic attacks, at least I haven't before. But I never used to get headaches until all this started either, so who knows! Crazy what a physical impact it can have on you.

We went through a couple MC's before finding this one. Including Steve, I am not opposed to going back to him but at the time it was not helpful to me. So far our current MC is working out well. Although I did remark to my H that MB was making life easy for him, we are pretty much doing the MB program and then telling him how we used the MB program/principles to resolve some issue.

So you know the drill. UA a priority. I would strongly suggest scheduling it together and then you have his enthusiastic agreement.

Do you want to share about the boundary issue that you were having?

Watch the headaches.

Sure. We have lived in our neighborhood for about 8 yrs. As a SAHM I have a friendly relationship with most of my neighbors, and have called on them when needed for favors and vice versa. My H, who works a lot and used to travel, never developed a relationship with any of our neighbors. Our neighbors have always been drinkers. Although I used to enjoy a drink with them on occassion, I learned to bolt early in the evening before any drama ensued. And over the course of time due to various different entanglements, I have stopped hanging out with them all together, and have very little communication with any of them. What are entanglements you ask? Well, many years ago our then next door neighbors gf asked me if I would have a threesome with them. I thought she was joking at first but it turns out she wasn't. I politely said h e double l no. Same neighbor also made somewhat of a pass at me one other evening, I just walked away from him. Then on our other side we had a couple move in and it was soon discovered that they are in 'the lifestyle.' You guessed it, soon there are other couples in our hood in 'the lifestyle.' They have nicknamed me 'hot unwritten' because there are several unwrittens in our neighborhood. I guess we have nicknames to differentiate us. At neighborhood parties they talk very sexually the drunker they get, and eventually someone gets naked. So I've heard I've never been there for that. A swinging friend of my neighbor did approach me once and say 'his wife gave him the OK' (she did, she was there smiling at me when he said it). NAST. And finally, yet a totally different neighbor kissed me at a party, the last one I have been at, totally unprovocated and I left right away and told H about it that night and have completely distanced myself from anything other than hi at the mailbox. NONE of these people do I have any kind of attraction to, or let fill any needs, and some of them are nice by day but the whole swinging thing is just blachh something I don't like to think about. So...I guess my point is that my H does have EVERY right to dislike our neighborhood and not want to have anything to do with our toxic neighbors who have NO boundaries.

But, I still have for years been in random communcation with neighbors. As long as I am not going to parties or around when they drink, and steer clear of any of the crazy stuff, the daily lawn mowing wave is fine, as far as I'm concerned. So last week we had a tornado warning but the sirens didn't go off. My neighbor was mowing the lawn and I texted him to tell him, FYI do you know there is a tornado warning. OK thanks. That was the exchange. Two days later we randomly discovered that this same neighbor (one of the swingers) worked at the same company as H. I texted him to tell him that. I don't know why, because maybe they will run into each other and I don't know why wouldn't you say hey guess what we work together. I don't know there was no reason behind it, I have always been friendly and chit chatted with people by text and it was never a problem before this. H did not see it that way and came down hard on me. I was upset, I felt like he was accusing me of having some ulterior motive and there was none. After getting a little defensive, I then stepped into his shoes, and I saw it from his perspective and I understand his concern about me texting male swinging neighbors. Totally get that. Deleted his phone number and will never text another male neighbor again (swinger or not).

Anyway, I have gotten away with having male friendships all my life, during my whole marriage. My H could care less before now. Since I kept it platonic and in the case of neighbors have NO attraction to any of them, I didn't see the big deal, until now. But old habits are hard to break and I wasn't even thinking, that's what it came down to. I just really had to look at myself once again and the lack of boundaries I have had, and what a danger they are. And how I wouldn't tolerate H having that same lack of boundaries. Obviously reading over the story there have been a lack of boundaries, even though I never started a relationship with a neighbor the fact that I have had so many advances is proof to that right. I just never looked at it that way before.

That's the story. It was a learning experience for me. Next time I will let the neighbor get hit by the tornado, if it keeps my marriage protected...

About the job thing. This is a new job for H. His old job I had a good friend at, who kept an eye on him for me more or less. At his new job I don't know any of the people he works with. So I did think, is he having such a fit because I now know someone who he works with? Is there something he does not want me to find out, such as about his hot admin or friendliness with some female coworker? But I dismissed that thought and never brought it up. Did not want to defend my lack of boundaries with what are YOU up to??? But it does show my major lack of trust, especially with his work environment since almost all his relationships were with coworkers and the one that wasn't occurred during work travel. Guess that's part of the process.

Wow. That would give me a headache too.

If your H doesn't like the neighborhood (I wouldn't either) why don't you look into moving? POJA this my dear.

Second I'm so glad that you get it about opposite sex friendships. I would also pick better friends and caution the running by yourself with all these creepers in the neighborhood. No wonder your H has a problem with the neighborhood.
It's all about boundaries.

Listen to this radio clip where Dr. Harley talks about this very thing. He cautions no texting, no email, no facebook with the members of the opposite sex.
Radio clip on How dangerous Opposite sex friendships are

Oh ya, we have been wanting to move for YEARS. Like many others, our house has lost so much value since we moved in it is upside down. We have to pay to get out of here and pay a larger down payment on the next house, all that money savings is still in the works. But we talk about moving every day, definitely something we agree on.

We want to move out to the country, where we have no neighbors...

FYI these aren't really what I consider 'friends' as in, I wouldn't pick them as friends and certainly won't maintain a relationship when we move with any of them. Like family, you can't choose your neighbors though. I have just tried to be friendly, more or less, until now.

I have discovered there are a LOT of creepers in the world. Or people with a major lack of boundaries, or whatever you want to call it. Now that we have set some very high standards for ourselves, we realize how low everyone else's standards seem to be. It's disturbing.

Now that we have set some very high standards for ourselves, we realize how low everyone else's standards seem to be.

Ya know what made me smile about the above statement?

NG,

I am pleasantly surprised by the very fine detail you picked out of that convoluted piece of thread. And you are right, I didn't notice but now that you point that out it makes me smile too:)

unwritten, I just started reading "lovebusters" and came across this passage. It is one of the "States of Mind in Marriage" and is called "The State of Withdrawal". I'll just post the main parts.

"In that state of mind, "the Taker convinces" you that your spouse is not worth the effort"
"Emotional defenses are raised, and there is no longer an emotional bond. You don't want your spouse to meet your emotional needs anymore, and you certianly don't want to meet your spouse's emotional needs.
When we're in the state of withdrawal, we raise emotional deenses so high that our spouse cannot get love units through that barrier. We don't allow ourselves to be VULNERABLE enough for our spouse's actions to meet our emotional needs"
"though withdrawal may be painful to the other spouse, it is not really punishment. It is giving up. When one spouse sees no hope in the future of the relationship, escaping into withdrawal seems the only choice possible."

Sound familiar??

OH RQ it sounds VERY familiar!!! I have been trying to catch up on your thread BTW and Kiss's thread too.

I have been in this state off and on for about 3 years now. Today I am 'better' than I have been for a long time, have many days where I am excited to recover, but I still slip back into this state too often for my own comfort. Even when we are having some kind of disagreement or bad moment or whatever, I start to withdraw. I am thinking in my head, NO LBing NO LBing, NO withdrawing! but I just don't CARE at that moment, if I am building love banks or recovering or not.

One of the reasons for that is because during the last 3 years I have been through the ringer emotionally, I'm sure you and many others can relate. There used to be a time when I could not IMAGINE life without H. We did not even speak the D word (divorce). But then all this trickle truthing and stuff started goin down and I had to start thinking about divorce. I had to consider it. I had to consider what I feared about it. What life would really be like without H. Consider what it would be like to see him in another relationship, or me be in another relationship. As a SAHM I had to consider how I was going to support myself and my kids, work through my financial fears. I did all that. The last thing I had to get over was the sadness at telling my kids about the D and losing the family I always thought I would have. Being a broken family. Up until DDay I still fought because I didn't want to give that up. But then DDay came and went and H did nothing to recover our relationship and eventually I gave up on those things too. I EMBRACED divorce. I thought, it will be hard, but finally I will have PEACE. When I asked for a D the final time, I was there, and that is when H started taking recovery seriously.

But now, here I am wondering some days if he just pushed it too far, know what I mean? I made peace with the fact that this was going to end in divorce. I was ready for it. And now I having to go back and try and reopen my love bank for him, find the hope and desire I once had all over again.

OK this is just blogging. I totally agree though, sounds very familiar. Guess just another thing I have to overcome in this recovery I guess.

wanted to edit some spelling errors

I hear ya, friend. Divorce makes the situation easier to accept and move on and try to forget. Trying to recover...MUCH more difficult lol!

BTW, kiss has not been posting in awhile. I haven't either, really. If he is not willing to recover, then I am not either.

RQ, you still have personal recovery.

Agreed! I see my IC tomorrow night, I'm hoping she will help me with this.

Well. I just got back from MC where we discussed this little panic attack I had last week. My episodes of feeling indifferent and checked out. My frustration with H not really working hard on recovery. He has made some strides, don't get me wrong. He has been more considerate, less self centered, has been in charge of scheduling weekly lunches and date nights. There is progress.

But its not enough. He is frustrated, feeling like I am not ever happy I suppose. I am feeling like, this type of maintenance that he is doing is great! And would be sufficient if we were trying to maintain an otherwise happy and healthy relationship. We are not. We are trying to dig ourselves out of this deep, deep hole of destruction before we can even begin to 'maintain.'

I know I have been called out in this thread to 'drive the boat of recovery.' I spent a decade ready to do anything to make this a better marriage. Even when I was in rebellion mode I was praying for him to just come clean so we could work on recovery. Then, he did come clean. Yet, we didn't work on recovery. We just...existed. Brushed it under the rug. I went from VERY resentful and angry, to just indifferent I guess. I can't remember the other stages but I have probably been through all of them except whichever the healthy one is! For the first decade the Giver was in charge and worshipped the ground he walked on. Don't want that back, fo sho. He took full advantage of that Giver! Then a year of Anger, is that a stage? Good thing I wasn't posting then or the mods would have kicked me off a here! Now, indifference/Withdrawal?

So I know what needs to be done. I know we need more UA time to build some love, and we need to invest into our MB home program, which has been sitting in our basement collecting dust through all of this. I just can't find it in me to walk down there and brush off the dust. I guess like you RQ, if he isn't fully invested, isn't willing to do everything he can to keep me here, then neither am I. I just need to see his desire to want this to change. I need to see him fight for this. His own indifference and lack of desire to go above and beyond, speaks volumes to me. It does NOT inspire me to move forward in recovery.

I guess I just need to know that I am moving forward with someone who values and loves me and wants to recover this. If he doesn't, why do I?

So...I have been giving a lot of thought about the withdrawn state. I guess my goal is to try and behave my way to success, or action first feelings later. Fight my urge to withdraw and just force myself to keep filling needs as much as possible, etc. What other advice is there to force myself out of this withdrawal state?

And I have been very frustrated lately because my #2 EN which is SF has been unmet for many years, and continues to be unmet. It is second only to Openness and Honesty which has replaced it during this time, before that it was #1. I know I am still struggling to meet H's most important EN's, one of which is the ever dreaded domestic support. I have been trying to clean about 4 hours a day, and even then I still feel like things are in disarray and I know he still doesn't feel happy. But I am trying, and continue to get better. Now SF is not 4 hours a day, and it seems to be mutually pleasurable, he certainly seem to get more enjoyment out of it than I do out of cleaning...so why is it so hard to meet?

I have been frustrated by this for years. It is a common thought amongst people that because I am a woman, who has a high need for SF, I must be REALLY in need of affection or attention, or just be insecure and use sex as a way to fill that need. Nope. I just really want SF. I have been known to say I am a 18 yr old boy underneath this 40 yr old woman's body, lol. And yes, I have been afflicted with this need all my life, not just during this midlife surge that women are supposed to have right about now. Sheesh I sure hope I don't get some surge.

I feel like this is a need that is often, not just for me, really brushed off. I read on someone's thread (jerkboy?) that sex is like air, you don't even realize you need it until its gone, and then you can think of nothing else. I understand this. It can dominate the every thought when it is not being met.

I have been blatantly honest about it not being met. H does not really seem to care in the least about that. Two days ago, as I was complaining to a female friend about it (really my only friend I can discuss it with bc the rest all think I am crazy), I thought I should discuss it with him again. I did. He said he would try and meet that need more. Still didn't get any that night...

It is amazing to me how much it affects your feelings when your most important needs are unmet. Now that I am aware of it. About a month ago I thought I would drive the boat, and was assertive at getting this need met. I spent a good decade really being assertive and getting frustrated with the constant rejection, so it is hard for me to do this now. But I did. He played along, although he was clearly doing it to fill a need and not necessarily because he wanted to. Heck check my posts at that time, happy and upbeat and positive! But I got sick of being the aggressor, again. Decided to lay off and see if he would take over, or at least meet me halfway. He didn't, and here I am frustrated again. Possible reason for my withdrawn and negative attitude? IDK. It seems to have a dramatic affect though.

FYI I am 5'10 wear a size 6 and still, at the age of 40, have people tell me I should model. I am very attractive. Not that looks matter, to me. I just wanted you all to know I was not way out of the ballpark on PA and that was the answer here.

So what to do to get this need met? I have heard the Harley's say before that when everything else happens (ie UA time, love banks being filled through other needs being met, lack of LBing, etc) then this will fall into place. But since it is a very important need to me, and when it isn't present I have such a shift in emotions, seems like everything can't fall into place until THIS falls into place. Advice please. Or maybe I'm just venting.

SF being the subject EN always introduces...uneasiness...in a discourse between the sexes.

For that reason let me approach this as if the EN was incognito.

Spouses owe their mates the responsibility to attempt to satisfy the need for any major EN. That has got to be as clear a mandate of the MB program as there is. ("A spouse must be the only source of important EN satisfaction...." yields, in turn, the corollary that the spouse MUST supply the ENs that are vital.)

So if the spouse knows what ENs are critical to the mate, and chooses NOT to satisfy them, then effectively they have abdicated their part in making the marriage work. (We will not discuss spouses not being able, physically or otherwise, to satisfy the EN under consideration.) If that spouse is informed of his failure to satisfy the EN, and continues to choose NOT to do so (having already been vetted for being ABLE to do so), he has abrogated his commitment to the marriage. That "absence of care" for the marriage presents the other with a decision to be made, and it may not be a pleasant one.

You probably already knew (or intuited) that, right?

But on another, related, topic - 4 hours per day of housework? Really? Can I send you a virtual "Attagirl"?

I totally understand. In fact, it is scary how similar we both feel about this. I'm meeting with my IC tonight to talk about my withdrawal. I feel that my personal recovery is more important than the marital recovery right now. No one else seems to care about my PR except me (and you all here) and my IC.

Hmm. Not sure how to go about explaining that. Oh yes H had a ONS, and several other EA's and questionable situations throughout the years that we were married. He lied and deceived me for a long time. (Must interject here that I too, have had piss poor boundaries and wayward behavior...lest it seem I blame this all on him...) I decided to recover from those things and repair our marriage. But...then I left because I wasn't gettin enough booty. LOL.

I know its not a laughing matter, this not meeting of EN's. And I get what you are saying about not putting the care into a marriage, looking at it that way.

But you are right that it is subject to...uneasiness...or something like that. The constant emotional turmoil has made connecting on that intimate level difficult, to say the least, for both of us. Sometimes it almost does more damage than good, depending on one or both of our attitudes at the time. Oh wait, I think I might feel some resentment comin on! Because it could have been amAZing for us, sex and intimacy, but all this deception and division has taken that away and left us struggling to connect and leaving H struggling to even want to try, I guess. Its a shame really, all the things that have been lost. OK I'm done. Shoo resentment go away you are not welcome here...

Well I will see this through. Keep meeting his EN's and trying to restore the Love Banks that have been so ungraciously depleted by all this unbelievably stupid decision making (no I really said go away, you are not welcome). Hopefully as his Love Bank grows for me he will desire me more, or at the very least get to the point where he wants to fill my needs. If that time doesn't come and his current lack of desire to 'care' for me doesn't change, guess I will have to reevaluate.

Before you get all excited about the 4 hrs of cleaning, remember when it comes to DS I am easily distracted and counterproductive. I try really hard, work really hard, but my lack of focus equates to a dog discovering he has a tail, and spending 1 out of 4 hours chasing it. But even 3 is making a dent:)

Yes RQ we care about your personal recovery! If I had a dollar for every time I wished I had discovered these boards and all this overwhelmingly valuable knowledge YEARS ago, heck before we were married would have been nice but any time after that, I would have been a different person. A better person, better wife, better mother. I don't know if I would still be married because I would have been STRONGER and known what to do rather than just wallow around in self pity like this is my destiny, to be married to all this crap. I guess reading stories on here of people who have been married 15, 20, 30 yrs and could say the same thing has made me thankful for my 13. I think we are ALL on a road to personal recovery, from the trauma's associated with a deceptive marriage, it is one of the most amazing things about being here.

UW:

I just read your thread. My take is that you haven't done the BASICS of the program. And you're not working at it diligenty enough.

WHat is your concrete plan to meet EN, UA and, above all, your EPs. You talk about UA time, but aren't meeting it.

I'm 1.5 years from DDay. Felt like I was hit by a bus; every bone crushed. I know resentment. I know anger. I know the gall of having to lead the ship of your own recovery.

Suggestion? How about with every "venting" post you write, you also give us one or two or three concrete steps/actions you've taken to repair your marriage or fill your H's love bank FOR THAT DAY or WEEK. And what are his? You may be leading the ship, but he better be rowing ... hard!

Someone else wrote it on here somwhere: one day becomes another, and then another, and then a year. And instead of "working" at your marriage, it has BECOME your marriage.

Just a couple of other thoughts:
None of us likes housework. I work outside the home and have to clean, too. To me, it's like a boring, distasteful task I have to do at my job. I don't like it, but I get it done, because I like the rest of my job. I clean because I like an organized, peaceful and clean home. Hate the chore; love the result.

SF: It is simply unacceptable for your H to not meet this need, but perhaps you need to think about this a bit differently. You've been emotional and physically apart for years. How would you flirt/woo him? You did it once, and I bet if you approached it that way, you might have more success?

Not talking about the affair. This KILLED me. I agree with you about it being so traumatic, how can I ignore it? But NG's analogy of the wound is correct. Vent here. And when you are triggered, tell your H your are triggering. I asked my FWH to hug me and recognize that I'm being triggered (that was really important to me!), and, well, own it. We NEVER say the word AFFAIR. And now when I'm triggered, he hugs me, says he's sorry and has added his own vow: To get me to the great place where he is. (He knows I still suffer, and he wants that to end, and he knows it's his job to help me get there).

Hope this helps.

SweetPea

Thanks SP.

You are right. We haven't done the basics, and we have NOT been working diligently enough.

I have no concrete plan. Just have H's EN's at the top of my mind all the time. First is RC but he did say he was getting enough of that already, we have many shared hobbies and common interests that we do together. Still in the quest to bump up UA time, we have worked to do even more. His second is DS. I have had a few people comment on the housework thing. I think the misunderstanding is that I just don't like to do it and therefore don't. Like a spoiled brat who doesn't want to eat her vegetables. Not the case AT ALL. Of course I don't like to do it, and I realize nobody does. But I do work very hard. I do not sit home every day and watch Oprah and eat bon bons. I just have a very ADHD personality and have a hard time focusing on tasks that are unenjoyable, and I am naturally disorganized and therefore seem to take one step forward to every two steps backward. So its not a lack of trying that stands in my way, just the focus issues/disorganization issues. Everyone who says 'well just organize yourself' or 'you just need to clean more' doesn't quite understand what I'm talking about. But LOVE you people who are neat and orderly and organized! Wish I could be like you. In any case, I have been working very hard to set a timer and remind myself whenever I get off task that if the timer has not beeped yet I have a goal and need to stay focused! (I have a child with ADHD and I try and use the same techniques with him...) So I am not really excusing bad behavior, just trying to dispel the common impression that I just don't care and don't try, that I feel like if I don't like it I don't have to do it. That's not it at all. Bottom line is, whatever my problem is, its a need of his and if I have to work at it 8 hrs a day to accomplish what the average person would do in half that time, I have to do it. H's third is Affection. I give him more affection than a normal person would know what to do with. The fourth for the record, is SF. Enough said.

UA. Not happening. I've explained why in a previous post, or several I guess. I have no excuse. He doesn't prioritize it and I just have a really, really hard time pushing him to spend the time with me. Really hard time. How do I get over that and just keep plugging forward?

EP's. We have never put our EP's in writing. I guess I did a quick version in this thread once, and transferred it to a word document to fine tune it for our sitch. But I never did and we never shared them in writing. He has not written any for me. We have discussed them in length however, agree to everything, and have applied them.

He is rowing, but definitely not hard.

As far as flirting and wooing. Flirting is a talent I have downpat. We flirt with each other throughout the day, almost every day, except the 'bad' days when one of us is triggered by something and that puts a dent in it. I'm not really sure about wooing him, what that means or how to do it better? I guess I have always been flirtatious and affectionate to him, that hasn't helped. I'm hoping having a cleaner house will help:) Any suggestions on wooing a man to get SF would be greatly appreciated...

Well one day this week I was triggered. It was totally my own fault too. I was discussing with a friend of mine her own A (past), and she asked me some questions about us and I answered her. I finally said, this is bringing up old stuff I would rather leave behind actually, triggering me. She apologized and we moved on, but that night I was having a hard time with it. I kindof avoided H because I didn't want to be love busting in any way, of course he caught on, asked what was wrong, etc. I said nothing, just a hard day. That is my way of saying I have been triggered and just need time to cope and get over it. Which I did, but a couple hrs later when I had forced the whole thing out of my mind and started to engage him then HE was withdrawn because me being triggered had triggered him??? Its the cat and mouse game, as I like to call it. Frustrating.

So what you are saying SP is 1)stop whining, 2) create a plan, and 3) implement. Gotcha. Notice gaps in my thread where I took this advice, implemented, got frustrated with what I perceive to be a lack of rowing at the other end of the boat, and end up on here venting again. Not sure what to do about that. How to just buckle down and row without looking back to see why there is drag.

Also, for the record. I spew often on other peoples threads about making their WS take a poly, and not committing to recovery without knowing that you have all the information. This, is the pot calling the kettle black. I BELIEVE this. I have not IMPLEMENTED this.

My story is, decade of WH lying to me about PA and several EA's. Went into a FIGHT mode and had a year of trickle truth. Poly was discussed over that year, H would not take one (obviously). Finally, at the end, I demanded that he take it or I walk. This is when he confessed the PA. I NEVER HAD THE POLY. I have been called out on this a couple times (by SusieQ?). I have no idea if I have all the information. I know I know this could be a HUGE factor in my lack of committment to this recovery.

H has been verbally enthusiastic about taking one since DDay. Several months ago I reinvested in the thought of a poly and told him that yes, indeed, I needed him to take one. Months later, he has not.

This came up in MC this week, I was using it as an example of why I felt he wasn't committed to recovery or healing me. The MC basically said, if this is important to you it should be done(after some mumbo jumbo about false results blah blah blah). H sat next to me and I could feel the weight on him from where I was sitting. At the time, stupidly, I thought he was just feeling bad about this discussion. But about an hour later I realized it was the heaviness I felt from him on DDay.

I did mention this to him. He still swears there is nothing else. If there is folks, I will move this to the divorce board pronto. There are no false recoveries for this lady. This was a one time deal.

He is in charge of setting up the poly. By the way, I did state that I thought I should take one too. He has reason to not trust me in the same manner that I have reason to not trust him, I would prefer we start on a completely clean slate. As of now he tells me he doesn't think its necessary.

He has asked me for advice on polys. I wish he would just get his behind on this board and show some desire to learn from all you wonderful people too, but he isn't going to do that. So does anyone have any advice on polygraphers? How to find a good one? Also questions, I don't really know where to start on those. I have read on other peoples threads but seems like they differ for each set of circumstances?

Thanks for any poly guidance you can give me.

UW:

I can't stress enough how you should buy and read "Surviving an Affair." You really need to steep yourself in the basics of the program so that you can move forward.

Why? Because what you're doing right now isn't working. Your second need isn't being met (SF), and neither is your H's (DS). I'd take a real hard look if you are even meeting both of your top needs.

And you may want to examine your top needs. Perhaps one of them can be doing his part in your marriage recovery. Trust me, I had to KNOCK MY FWH over the head with this until he got it. Why? Because he thought doing MB, AND marriage counseling AND his own therapy was more than enough. But it wasn't. I had to specifically tell him that I needed more.

Perhaps you need to schedule a weekly hour (make it a "happy" hour with wine) after the kids are in bed and talk about MB principles and how you did the previous week and what UA time you can commit to the next week.

Daily and weekly check-ins are a must. Otherwise, it's just far to easy to let everything slip under the rug of "normal." And you've experienced that enough already and know that it isn't "normal."

Also: My humble opinion is that your RA time isn't meeting UA time ... otherwise, you would feel more benefits from it. Personally, I'd put much of your separate RA time aside for now to work on your marriage. Hobbies can wait. Your marriage is at a crossroads and if you want it to be AFFAIR PROOF as well as AMAZINGLY HAPPY, put the time and effort in now.

And, housework? You made me totally laugh at the thought of me being neat and tidy. I'm anything but that! LOL! I have to FORCE myself to do those chores. I agree that ADD is a bear to deal with (my stepson has it, so I empathize). But ... you sound capable, smart and motivated. I'm sure you can slay the domestic support beast.

(I have no advice on poly; my FWH admitted everything straight away, so I never had to deal with that. Hope I never do!)

Cheers,
SP

FYI: how can H share the recovery burden?

1) HE can schedule a date night and make it a priority.
2) He can be in charge of talking about MB and your upcoming, scheduled UA time.
3) He can ask you if he is meeting your needs.

Make sense? Figure out what would make you happy in terms of using MB for success, and then POJA the strategies, making sure he is 50% (or more) responsible for concrete steps. That way, you both get what you want: you get help in guiding the recovery ship and he gets a happy wife.

SP

SP thank you so much for taking the time to read my thread, and give me advice!

We own SAA, it has been collecting dust in our basement since before DDay.


Mine: OH, don't know if he is meeting this one. Guess you only know what you know. Without trust, how do you really ever know. His: RC. IDK we have a LOT of common interests and hobbies. When we first started and he filled out the EN he said I was meeting and he liked how I was meeting his need for RC. We have only added more time together. So not sure how I could better meet this need.


I didn't quite understand the first sentence. The rest sounds VERY familiar, H keeps saying he is frustrated because he has made so many changes and its not good enough. I feel bad that he feels like I am not appreciating the changes, but he's right, its not good enough.


Yes. Totally agree. Just change that wine to Jeremiah Weed Sweet Tea Vodka.


Yes. Absolutely agree.


Hrm. This is a hard one. Must say that I spent a good decade submerged in trying to make my H happy, trying to fix a marriage without even knowing why it was broken. He had hobbies which I supported, I had nothing. Just wallowing in sadness because of the state of my M. My activities are a result of me picking my chin up and not letting my life be controlled and manipulated by the Giver anymore, and they bring me immense personal joy. Giving them up seems like going backwards to me, reminds me of where I've been and where I never want to go again. I hear what you're saying, but its a struggle.

Also, one of the things I have always loved about H is his passion for his hobbies. I have always supported them. I would feel very uncomfortable asking him to give anything up. Also, I feel he would be resentful of me if I asked him to hold back or give any of them up, even temporarily. He would be withdrawn and 'make me pay' with withholding his affection, SF, etc. This is our history, when he doesn't get to do what he wants, or I don't agree, etc. he withdraws from me and withholds these things. We have discussed this in MC and he acknowledges it and seems to want to change it, but it is a struggle. Old habits you know. Just seems counterproduct to push this envelope right now. Oh great now the Giver is back taking control...


Speaking of, I am behind in my 4 hrs and must get to work. Date night tonight you know so must be done before H gets home. Also bought him a card that says, 'I'd walk a mile for one of your smiles...and crawl through broken glass for a piece of your...you know.' Bwahahaha. OK the groper is at it again.

Does that count as wooing???

1) He is already scheduling our weekly lunches, and MC sessions, and date nights. Check.
2) He avoids this like the plague. During our decade of Plan C I regularly sat him down to 'talk about our relationship.' I am sure that was hard for him because HE WAS LYING the whole time and therefore it was uncomfortable. And in general it was about what he was doing wrong in our relationship (little did I know). And I was always sad and probably pathetic and not the sassy woman he fell in love with. So in general those were painful uncomfortable moments for him. I think he equates 'working the plan' to that.
3) He has done this. I have answered. Hasn't really seemed to have much affect. So, guess the asking is not the problem.

I want him to be 50% or more responsible, which is why I don't drive the boat. Which is why I don't just do all of these things. Because I don't just want him to be a passenger in this. I don't want him to just 'show up.' But I can't MAKE him do that, he has to want to do it on his own. THAT is what lacks here. I don't know how to change that.

UW"


Easy to fix. Get it out. Each of you read xx pages per day.

You should never blindly trust your FWH. It's a fact. He has strayed in the past (so have u). You are both vulnerable. Trust, but verify. Over time, and with great work, I have relaxed a bit, but I will never, ever, ever, ever, ever blindly trust my H again. Hopefully, MB EPs/ENs/UA will prevent another affair. But you can bet I will be checking any emails/phones/alibis if need be.


My H had a moment of clarity after one particularly awful day, during which I was convinced he'd never be faithful and that he was also incapable of radical honesty. I'll try to explain. He was doing everything (MB, MC and individual therapy). For a guy, he was talking MORE about his feelings, etc., than he'd ever done. And yet ... I often was miserable. That day in particular was really bad. He said: I'm doing everything I can, and that's not enough. I said back: Well, if being a good husband is too hard for you, then maybe we shouldn't be married.

Bing! Then he got it. All of the things he was doing was the BASE LEVEL of what a good husband does and what ensures a STRONG and HAPPY marriage. It felt hard for him because he wasn't used to it. He loves doing these things now, but it was hard at first. He realized that the "minimum" so-to-speak wasn't an extraordinary effort on his part. Just how is "should" be. And he realized he could more. (And what I was asking was not much; sharing of "ship" burden and better communication. Took him awhile, but he is getting there.)

It really was a mind-set change. Does that make sense?

Whatever works, sister!

Don't you want his passion for YOU and your marriage to be paramount? You are in CRISIS!!!!!! Forget the stupid hobbies. They will be there when you two are recovered.

If he likes cards with sexual inuendo, then sure. But I would ask you: What ... specifically ... turns him on? Do that!

Have a great date night!

It totally makes sense. I have actually used these exact words with him several times in the past month+. That he is doing what he should have ALWAYS been doing. I relate it to starting a relationship on level ground and doing whatever needs to be done to stay there, to maintain a happy and healthy relationship. Vs where we are which is in a deep deep hole that has to be filled before we can even think of resorting to doing just the maintenance. Our MC refers to it as maintenance work vs recovery work. For example, H got me a very nice Mother's Day gift. I love it, and it makes me feel spoiled. He brought this up in MC, can't remember the context but it was kindof like, I haven't done this kind of thing before and now I am, now I am trying to spoil her, why is this not enough? Whereas I'm thinking, LOVE the gift, LOVE feeling spoiled, but this is the first time in 11 years since being a mother I can remember getting a MD gift. So should finally getting one be enough to make me happy and recovered? Of course not! The lightbulb hasn't come on for him yet though, doesn't seem to matter what I say about that.



Hrm. Still not sold. All I do all day long is clean the house and wait on people. OK I do more than that, but I mean I am a SAHM. Lets look at it from the perspective that it canNOT be healthy for me (and isn't, proven) to not do ANYTHING else but center my life around my M and my family. Be with them 24/7, have no adult friends (which are mostly centered around my hobbies) or time away from home. I really just cannot fathom my life without all these things. Lots of people have their careers to balance things with, I do not. I have my hobbies. Also, I am the president of a local non profit, kindof like a 'job' I just don't get paid for it. Can't imagine the hardship I would cause to just walk away from it.


Well, that is just more my sense of humor. To make him laugh. Not really as a 'turn on' lol. I guess I'm not really sure what turns him on...if I knew I'd be making good use of it right about now.

Maybe that will be our date night conversation. What turns you ON H? We have a rule we cannot talk about sad stuff, or logistical stuff while on date night. I think this would work.

Thanks!

Tell him over and over and over again, how this small thing made you feel so good.

That is the past and is love-busting (i know you're only saying this here, but don't let that undercurrent bubble up.

You are in a new marriage with a new faithful/fully engaged/honest/EP-guarded H. Celebrate the pluses and they will become self-fulfilling, or second nature, as opposed to some "penalty" he thinks he's paying for the affair.

No where does MB say this. For you, with your bad boundaries, it means no alone time with other men. No texting with other men, not flirty emails. You should NOT EVER, EVER, EVER let another man meet your need for admiration, love, interest, ect. And neither should your H with other women.

Friendships are fine. Work is fine. Just do not let other people get even an inch between the intimacy you have with you H. If you don't let anyone in, no one will ever get there.

And here's something to tempt your H: MB is all about "B" building a fantastic marriage. It does mean an extraordinarily close marriage, but it also means an extraoirdinarily HAPPY marriage. When you are meeting each others' needs, you don't need anything else. Other friends and whatnot are nice, just not necessary. Subtle distinction, but worthy of thinking about if you think your marriage is your MOST IMPORTANT LIFELONG ASSET.

I can't imagine the hardship you and your children will face if your marriage crumbles. Compassion is a great thing, but share that when YOU are recovered. Your needs trump all others ... for now.

Love, love, love this idea! Let us know what it is ... unless this board would be taken down due to censoring!

Make it a great night!!!!

So... You resent having to PoJA activities, rather than just continuing your IB?

And you wonder why your marriage got wrecked?

Also, I've heard the "I don't get to have friends!!!!!!!!!!!!" complaint before. From my wife. While she was wayward.

Why? Well, she should have been OK to be friends with her AP because she should be able to have "friends." After all, the affair was wrong, but "adult friends" should be OK!



So, would the sneaking suspicion that your resentment is fueled by your connection to an unrevealed "friend" be very far off.


Hobby, "friends," or marriage.

Which one is it?

Thanks unwritten, I've been reading your posts the past couple of days and it has helped me realize I'm not alone in how I feel lately. We have been going through similar instances of not enough UA and I told my husband last night its like he isn't trying that he is sitting back waiting for me to get over it so we can move on, but I've felt so withdrawn I felt ready to throw in the towel. I'm encouraged.

OK SP. We did have a GREAT night. He walked in the door smiling, and said 'I must confess I was just reading your thread.' Bummer because he already knew about the funny card I bought him, lol. But I am always happy to hear that, without provocation, he is reading my thread. Makes me feel like he cares. And I think he can learn a lot by hearing it kindof like a fly on the wall.

He said I already know what turns him on. I said LEGS. He likes legs. I am 5'10 so I do have some legs on me. But I am a little bit tomboy and tend to wear a lot of jeans and tank tops or tshirts, I'm not really fancy. But I CAN be fancy and like to be on occassion. I guess I need to invest in more sundresses, skirts, even shorts. I might even start walking around in high heels to tone them up (although I AM already 5'10, I do love chunky heels and have several pair but I am REALLY tall with them on!).

I already knew he likes pretty feet. Tomboy+big feet+barefoot half my childhood= not pretty feet. I am way ahead of him on this though and had gotten a pedi earlier this week. Now pedi's are not for me, I am about as comfortable in a chair getting a pedi as your average lumberjack. Plus, I am kindof frugal and the cost of getting your nails done is painful for me, even though we have the money. But, if that's what he wants I will continue it. He has said several times he really likes it when my feet are pretty, and I know he has no problem with the cost.

He also said he likes cleavage, which I already show off quite a bit. He has never told me he liked it before but I guess he does.

Now, we did have to discuss some problems with these things. One being that 90% of the time when I 'dress up' which means wear a skirt or dress, heels, he will kindof harrass me about it because he feels like I look way better than him (he's a jeans and t-shirt guy too). I told him he has to stop that. If I try and look nice/sexy then he has to not harrass me for it. We agreed that there were times to dress nicer (lunch dates where he has a business suit on), and also that I need to be 'casual fancy'...he said I am too classy lol but I think he meant I go overboard when he just wants a sundress. Hope he doesn't want a hoochie mama.

He also said he doesn't like me to dress like that because "you are a beautiful woman and I don't like other guys oogling over you." I told him that if I want HIM to oogle over me, that might just be a problem. Not sure how to solve that.

Basically he wants me to be more girly, I wish I was naturally girly and not such a tomboy but I will give it my best shot. It was a nice conversation, we were both very negotiable. He basically said, dress like you are going out on a date to meet a guy you've never met, appropriate to the situation but looking hot. That will be forefront in my mind.

And, we discussed the whole SF thing. Must be reading my thread but I think he is starting to understand the need more. He said I was too aggressive. And that I want to jump in without warming him up first. Sometimes I feel like SUCH A BOY. And he said that my references to how the roles are reversed hurt his feelings because he already knows that, and he wants to be the man and feels mocked by that. I never knew that. I have always said that because I feel bad being so sexual, not because I was trying to make HIM feel bad. He said he wanted my flirting to be more subtle and less 'this is ending up in bed or else' so to speak. I am not a very subtle person usually. He said you wouldn't go on a date with someone and be that blatant about it, you would be more suggestive and less 'let's get it on.' I will work HARD to tone it down! Likewise I told him my fear was if I am not slightly aggressive and demanding about it (yes LB I know) then I would not get any! Because that is our history, when I pull back to see if he will be the aggressor or instigator I just go a long time with no sex. He said he will be very considerate of that.

So, good information shared. We had a nice dinner, good conversation, and great....well I'll leave that part out....

I am excited to make the changes.

Well HHH, thank you for taking the time to post on my thread.

My H and I are in agreement about the activities, he is as supportive of mine as I am of his and we also share some together. So...it isn't really a PoJA thing because we are both in total agreement. I have never invested in activities he was not in agreement with or support of, and vice versa.

And no, I don't think our activities wrecked our marriage. I think our infidelities and lack of boundaries wrecked our marriage.

You have misinterpreted my 'adult friends' comment to mean MALE friends. We SAHM's talk about our 'adult friends' as a means of saying 'separate from our mommy time.' I did not mean male friends.

Yes I have fought tooth and nail on this thread to not have to give up all male contact. And lost. And saw the light about good boundaries. And made the necessary changes to put boundaries around my marriage.


Yes, it would be very far off. If you are suggesting I am currently in some kind of affair, that is very far off indeed. I have total transparancy to my H, and I welcome it. He has access to every account I have, cell phone, has a GPS tracker on my phone and frankly that makes me feel cared for. He can put any other snooping device on my computer, phone, etc., secretly or not, and I have no problem with that. Like I said, I welcome it as a step to prove to him that I am trustworthy, and because it makes me feel cared for.



It is ALL. I don't want my life to be only about being a mother and wife. That is one of the ONLY things I will not agree to. And before you start talking about PoJA on this, H is in full agreement.

But I will prioritize them in the following order: MARRIAGE, friends, hobbies.

Thanks MT and I am happy to hear somehow my posts about being resentful and withdrawn are encouraging someone...surprised tho! Today, I am having a GREAT day. Great date night with H, lots of good discussion and negotiating and PoJAing. I told him last night that 'it doesn't take much effort on his part to inspire me.' Meaning, when I see the smallest effort on his part, like him reading my thread, or whatever, it inspires me and gives me the strength and energy to go full speed ahead for awhile.

Good luck with your sitch, I will have to check to see if you have a thread to follow.

You know who people who have successful, life-long, romantic marriages prefer to spend ALL of their time with?


You can PoJA right into the destruction of your marriage.

We even had a poster here who thought a threesome with her husband and another man would be OK... because the did it under PoJA!

Get a month or two of 20+ hours of UA time in (the vow "forsaking all others" refers just as much to friends as it does to prospects of infidelity) and then reevaluate how much value these escapes have.

Thats ridiculous. You are saying to be married I cannot have any friends? FEMALE friends since I have already determined I would not keep MALE friends mind you. That all I can have in my life is my husband? And you are equating having friends and hobbies, as long as you can prioritize your marriage and relationship with your spouse, to having a threesome?

Sorry. You are not going to sell me on that point.

Frankly, if the cost of a good marriage is to give up EVERYTHING else in my life, it costs too much.

Friends of the same sex can come after UA time. I believe the issue has to be POJA'd with your spouse.

If you want to do something with your girlfriends after you UA time has be successfully utilized, then POJA it with your husband.

Reading your thread ... You have infidelity and children, so your time will be limited currently outside of your marriage.

With infidelity ... you will need at least 15+ UA hours, it is highly encouraged to go to 20-25 for the first couple of years.

With children Dr. Harley suggests 15+ hours of family time also ...

With the rebuilding of your marriage and your family that means you need up to 35 hours/week with your husband and children.

I am not sure if Dr. Harley suggests your 15 hours of family time can include other families... you may want to email Dr. Harley and ask him this question.

Let's start simply, right here:



Hey, fantastic use of a worst-case scenario to red herring the conversation! You should be proud!

Now, get over it.

The point is; you can absolutely PoJA the destruction of your marriage, as you seem to be content to do at this time.


Does it?


Does it REALLY?


You see, what I see reading your posts, and your responses to others posting isn't "the devil or resentment."

I see the devil of;

selfishness

self-entitlement

the state of marital withdrawal


In short, you ma'am, are a drama queen.


Yet, just fixing that third "devil" can actually do a lot toward erasing the other two. You, ma'am, use "resentment" as a tool for secondary gain against your husband. Yet another reason you are in a wreck of a marriage.

And, your wrecked marriage - your state of marital withdrawal - is why you can't fathom changing your life for a good marriage.

So... you claim I can't "sell" you on one of the most basic marriage builders principles? Ok. How about this;

Calculate the cost of divorce. Calculate the cost to your children emotionally and mentally... as well as financially over their own lifetimes based on the model of marriage YOU will present.

How does that weigh versus these "precious" activities and friendships of yours?

Over your lifetime.

Over the lifetime of your children?


I don't have to "sell" anything. You have a choice to make.



Starting to make sense? Sound familiar?



Making sense yet?


You see... you have been going about Marriage Builders BACKWARDS.

PoJA is important, but it is LESS important than the very base of this program; UA time.

Why?

Because PoJA is a GREAT way to for a spouse in withdrawal to justify marriage-wrecking activities. After all, you have "enthusiastic agreement" to do it, right?


Your focus should NOT be on PoJA, it should primarily be on 20+ hours each week meeting each others 4 intimate emotional needs; Affection, Intimate Conversation, Sexual Fulfillment, and RECREATIONAL ACTIVITY.

Once you and your husband are actually IN LOVE with each other, then you can look at these issues again.

2-3 months of solid 20+ hours a week should get you there.



So, which is it; drama queen, or marriage builder?

To drive the point home; Dr. Harley has stated he WILL NOT accept anybody for coaching who refuses to meet the UA requirements, because all else in the program DOES NOT WORK WITHOUT IT.

HHH,

Thank you for the time you have taken to respond to my thread and gather support from Dr Harley for your argument. I have weighed and considered it.

I respectfully disagree. Not with 15-20 hrs of UA time, but with having individual activities when that time is fulfilled.

I also disagree with the fact that I am a selfish drama queen. But you have a right to your own impression of me.

UW

UW:

Then prove US all wrong! I am sincerely challenging you, sister, to post here EVERY DAY how you get 15-20 hours of UA time in (no kids, no TV). That's 2-3 hours ... per day!

If "friends" are more important/enjoyable than your H ... or I would venture to say if they are as equal to you as your H, that's a mind-set that will erode the strength of your H.

You are not being sentenced to prison. It's a lifelong vacation with the most important person in your life.

(FYI: I'm totally sympathetic to you wanting to hang onto your independence. Got it. But MB isn't about independence; it's about strong, healthy and HAPPY marriages. And you both have proven over time that you simply can not handle outside friendships ... at least w/members of opposite sex.)

SP

P.S.: Nice work on date night and talking about H's needs. Think more on this: Guys are laser-focused on how to get what they want (flattery, presents, doing favors, etc.). Now you know what he finds attractive and the approach he likes. You go, girl! (In the most subtle of ways, as per his request, of course!)

When putting your marriage after independent behavior creates a successful, romantic marriage and you are happy with your husband doing it this way, I encourage you to write Dr. Harley and let him know he's been going about this all wrong for well over 3 decades, and that he has been teaching thousands upon thousands of couples the wrong way, too.

Heck, maybe I'd like to go back to playing WoW all the time!


I can only go off of your own words; that you would rather not have a marriage at all than to give up your independent behavior. Said with dramatic inflection.

Thanks SP.

I am having a hard time understanding how there is such misinterpretation of what I've said. I have never said I prioritized friends over marriage. I haven't even seen my closest friend for 20 yrs in over a year, because of my attempts to try and focus on my marriage. I have repeatedly said that I prioritize my marriage. And that I agree with UA time. I am not challenging either of those issues and I'm not sure why its coming across that I am.

I am simply stating that I disagree with the fact that, AFTER I meet UA time, AFTER I have prioritized my marriage, filled my H's needs (which I am working very diligently on despite my desire to sometimes withdraw), that I must give up all activities that do not 100% include my spouse and have no same sex relationships. I have read every kind word you and others have said, and every unkind word other posters have said, and Dr Harley's advice, and I do not agree with giving up all other activities and friends. For that, I am being called selfish and self entitled.

Its discouraging. I'm on here trying to seek advice and support to work through the emotional rollercoaster, asking questions and taking advice and implementing much of what I have learned, which is a lot. Its discouraging to come on here and have a poster suggesting I am having some kind of affair, am being selfish and self serving and a drama queen. It makes me go from being excited to learn from my H about what his needs are and what I can do to invest, instead of withdraw, and it totally brings me down.

I thank you again for being supportive in this process, it means a lot to me to balance the negative with help and support from people like you.

HHH,

I am not sure why you keep coming at me here. You have suggested I am having an affair. You have suggested I am self serving and a drama queen. I am posting about my emotional rollercoaster, and trying to seek advice, weighing what everyone says, and implementing much of it.

I have never, not once, said that my independent activity (and I have thought long and hard about this, there is only ONE that I do independently that H is not really interested in, everything else we do as a family or as a couple) would come BEFORE my marriage or my husband. I have only said that I do not feel, if I am meeting my H's needs and UA time, that I should have to give it up.

I have been in my own 'profession' for over 20 years. That does mean all people regarding this profession must take my word as the bible, agree with 100% of what I say, and implement exactly as I say it. I feel like you are trying to manipulate me into agreeing to something that I don't agree with.


So a 'dramatic inflection' is what caused you to call me a drama queen?

I would assume you are here to help, because I don't know why you would be here writing on my thread if you weren't. Your approach to this is only discouraging me and making me defensive, it is not educating me, helping me with my questions regarding my state of withdrawal or polygraphs or any of those things. It is just being accusatory and what I consider to be negative and incredibly condescending.

OK Sweet Pea we sat down last night and we made a UA schedule together for the week. First time we have done that.

We only have 12 hours on it though since we are going away for the holiday weekend. We will be with my inlaws over the weekend though so vowed to up that time by asking them to watch kids while we go do RC time together, should get at least a couple more hours in there. And that also didn't include 'unplanned' things like SF (we don't really plan this...).

We agreed to consistently commit to 2 hours every Monday night to discuss our home program materials, review our previous weeks UA time, where our gaps were and what we needed to change for the better, and also plan for the following week.

Tonight, 1.5 hrs of workout time, then we usually sit down to rest and have some recovery drinks and talk for about a half hour afterwards. That is our schedule for the rest of the week, and a lunch date and dinner date, and scheduled 3 hours of RC time fishing this weekend:)

OK have to go short shopping. I. highly dislike. shopping. Wish me luck, hopefully I will only have to go to one store.

I believe you are intelligent and determined enough to have a fantastic marriage once you create the attitude and habits to build it.

I can either; a) back pat you and tell you how great you are doing, or b) help you plug the holes.



And, honestly, back patting is more condescending. You are a grown woman and don't need a "There, there... you just don't know better" approach. You aren't a child. That is how you talk to children.

As for the rest of your response here; Dr. Harley has stated that this program is a "narrow path." And that does mean you implement it exactly as he says to.

You want help with withdrawal? Then quit doing a one-cheek job for six months. Go all out, and work the program without all the excuses not to, without the "I know better than the experts" attitude.

15 hours a week is the BARE-MINIMUM, ma'am. If you want out of withdrawal, you will be prioritizing 20+ hours EACH WEEK.

Your "adult contact" time will be spent WITH YOUR HUSBAND. Your recreational time will be spent WITH YOUR HUSBAND. Your non-profit work will be done WITH YOUR HUSBAND.


Do you want to fall back in love with your husband, or continue to make excuses not to?

HHH,

Thank you for toning it down, I really appreciate it:)

I am not a little girl but a pat on the back once in awhile is still encouraging. I think support and encouragement during a difficult time is welcome at any age. Surely I am doing some things right that deserve encouragement, but perhaps in your opinion not.

I don't know better than the experts. But I didn't go to the seminary and still don't agree with everything every preacher on the planet who did tells me to, I still weigh all opinions and make my own judgement call at the end.

Anyway, no use beating a dead horse on this topic. Appreciate all the time you have invested in me.

UW:

Great work on scheduling UA time. See how HARD it is to find? And maybe you'll get some bonus UA time in that isn't scheduled. That's always great, too.

When you sit down and really make time for each other -- in order to make MB work -- there is very little time for other things, especially if you have kids, too.

It's a way of FORCING you two to bond, deeply, strongly and richly so that A) you repair your marriage and B) you make it impenitrable to affairs.

I love being in a happy, healthy MB-strengthened marriage. My "old" marriage -- in which my H screwed a POSOW -- that was not a good one.

And I love my friends. Love my hobbies. They just do not compare to my love for my H and our life together. I don't want anything to ever threatn that again.

Make sense?

OK, lastly: You've said you have planned out UA time next week. I'd love a daily report on whether your plans actually came true, or if you ended up cutting corners. Or, if you managed to find more UA time. Daily! You can do it!

Cheers,
SP

UW:

How's the UA time going? Are you meeting your goals? Let us know. We're rooting for you!

Cheers,
SP

Thank you SP!

UA time last week was kinda iffy. Not proud to report that we probably only got about 10 hrs in. Both were sick different days last week, then the weekend it was rainy and we didn't get out as much as we wanted. We did do our usual lunch date, dinner date, and a couple hours of fishing together each day over the long weekend. Not enough though.

Tonight we are supposed to review last weeks UA time, where the failures happened, what we can improve on this week to get more hours, etc. Main failure is working out. We are supposed to work out together every night but I just don't feel like H is committed to it (or the UA time in general frankly). How do I get his commitment on this?

Last week he read my thread and came back all gung ho about scheduling our UA time, etc. But then that zest fell through the cracks a little. Scheduling it is one thing but following through is another and he just isn't all that dedicated to following through. I would be but I just don't want to feel like I am twisting his arm to recover this, I know I have a hangup about that.

Also, he was supposed to have taken a poly by our next MC session which is supposed to be this week. He hasn't even scheduled one. What do I make of that. This darn poly thing is just a monkey on my back.

Well, UA time is non-negotiable. If H doesn't do it, then you are likely headed for divorce. Does he not understand this? You have strayed; he has strayed. The only way to really fix your marriage is to commit fully to each other and meet each others needs during UA time.

I guess I would ask him why he isn't committed to UA time, because it's a HUGE red flag into the recovery of your marriage.

Poly? Why is he scheduling the poly. I would NEVER trust a former wayward to schedule his own poly. You are the one that needs answers, not him. So, schedule it. Make him do it. Ask the questions you want answered, and then move on.

(Not very knowledgeable about polys because my WH didn't require one.) Perhaps others will pipe in and assist on this topic, and on the UA issue altogether.

Cheers,
SP

Question: How much time did you and H give to other people last week? Meaning, if you only got 10 hours in, did either of u sacrifice precious time to others?

UW, you haven't progressed very much since you began this thread. Do you recall the angst about the wedding bands? To review:

I did not feel that we should honor our former rings, because of the dishonor FWH brought to them, so I insisted we get new ones. Now I resent the fact that we had to spend the money to do what I insisted upon.

So now we're presented with:

I haven't driven us to fulfill our UA requirements because I don't feel his heart is in it.

HE'S NOT HERE - YOU ARE!

We cannot energize him to understand, internalize, and fully accept the MB practices because we're not talking to him.

We cannot energize you to understand, internalize, and fully accept the MB practices because....(Fill in the blank, UW, because if I do, you're not very likely to enjoy reading it.)

And please don't waste the electrons explaining how you do "understand, internalize, and fully accept the MB practices" but just don't accomplish them, okay? This is an action-based program. Sterile "knowledge" and "comprehension" prep the participant for the necessary "application", which is where the progress takes place.

My question to you is how do you get a WW spouse 'on-board' with you in accomplishing this plan. That's been my difficulty and it's allowing me to wallow in resentment like UW.

Ya NeverGuessed, what Hopeful Hubby said...

I get ya NG (OK I don't always get ya, sometimes I can't even decipher if your posts are English or not...but this time, I get ya). I feel like I have learned SO MUCH over the last couple of months. Yet, I am a big effortless loser in my own recovery. I won't argue with you on that.

I feel like I walked down the aisle with someone who was just along for the ride. I feel like I have been married to someone who was just along for the ride. I want to feel like I am working on recovery with someone who ISN'T just along for the ride. Do you get my drift on this? How do I get past this? I don't want to be with someone who could give or take me.

Oh, quit being a martyr.

Your husband's infidelity was inexcusable. The worst thing that could happen to you... but, you have had a CHOICE since your discovery - to find and learn a program of recovery and work it, or to divorce.

BOTH spouses have responsibilities in a marriage, and BOTH spouses have a responsibility if they are to recover a marriage and affair-proof it after infidelity.

You've been content - for weeks - to sit here and complain about your husband... but, what is YOUR part in this recovery? What are YOU doing to restore romantic love in your marriage?

You've been here far to long to have to have the BASIC CONCEPTS of this program hammered at you time and time again.

You say you've LEARNED? What have you APPLIED?

If you've learned so much, then what you are doing at this point is like having a PHD in Astrophysics, but choosing to work as a bagger in a grocery store.

http://www.marriagebuilders.com/graphic/mbi8112_habit.html

^

Get to work on that.


Quit whining about your husband and start putting all that you've "learned" to action, sister.

UW. This is a new thing for both of you. He may well need time to adjust.

You can't have a good marriage to someone who isn't willing to put in the time to make one. That means, after a certain point if things dont change you make a decision:

stay in a bad marriage where ENs are not getting met (and you are not in love)

leave

That is the bottom line.

I need to stop posting on this thread and lurking in the forums for awhile. I don't want to be a martyr, and I certainly don't want to whine. I'm just sad, and frustrated. Guess I just want more out of a man who clearly has no intention of giving it, but I guess I knew that a couple months ago and shouldn't have wasted everyone's time.

God bless all you couples where both parties are 100% invested in this process, clearly that is not the case for us. I am not 100% invested in recovery. I am hesitant, to say the least, for a multitude of reasons. And frankly, I just don't care about saving this as much as I once did. I think it would take very little on his part to turn that around, but I am waiting for some kind of inspiration that is obviously not going to happen.

You are 100% right kerala, I have a decision to make.

You all have a great summer.

i think you have invested alot of time and effort to try to recovery whats a bit more, you need to feel that when/if you leave you did all that you could and more.

if you know my story you know that i was TT for a few months, during that time i felt that i was draggin him thru this and yes i was, why.... because he didnt tell me the whole truth.... so i guess he was felling like why should i try, when she find out the real truth she will be gone (confirmed this feeling). this went on for months. then there were the feelings of guilt and shame....

i scheduled the poly not him, i would never leave it in H hands. there is no way he would have done it himself, why?? because he wasnt done lying. so do step one and schedule it for him.

then after the poly was done, H was still dragin his feet, and then i had to have the "are you all in conversation".

for a long time i have been the one pushing us thru all of this, but really someone has to do it. it is hard to do every day, but at least i know if things change and we fail at this i gave it my all and i have no regrets at all.

what would the inspiration that you need look like?

i wouldnt go away regardless.

I am not 100% invested in recovery...I just don't care about saving this as much as I once did.

That was probably very hard to type, kiddo. It is a credit to your progress to be able to recognize, and admit, this problem. It has been obvious to many of us for awhile that your enlistment was not wholehearted.

The next question, of course, would be, "Why?" The possible elements are legion for a BS to no longer feel "it" for a FWS.

Two that come to mind are:

- A change in EN priority, resulting from knowledge of the spouse's infidelity, resulting in an EN which is not highly supplied by the spouse, but not vital before the A, now being conspicuous by its absence. A good example of this would be "security/trust". When a now-BS needs a greater supply of this, and the life-styles/actions of the couple was never organized to facilitate it (job hours/type, emotional barriers), the new dearth can loom huge as a recovery roadblock.

- The absolute termination of expectation of certain EN satisfaction entirely as a result of the fallout of a WS's infidelity. Where the BS knew that being with the WS pre-affair would result in EN#1, that is now viewed as being no longer to be expected to be exchanged. (This was big in my case, in which pre-A I knew my bride to be "perfect", and enjoyed my association with such an ideal. After d-night....not so much!)

Think about these ideas, UW. I believe I could hypothesize about what is missing from your EN menu, but it would be more valuable if you brought it forward yourself.

This is a marathon, not a sprint.

But, you are right; if you sit around waiting for inspiration, it ain't going to happen. It just ain't. You don't go from having a wayward spouse to magically having a great marriage by sitting on your butt waiting for the wayward to do the work. And if they did? You still can't continue to sit on your butt and let them do all the work.


That's just not how this program works. And this program DOES work.


YOU have to make the decision to BE the inspiration for your marriage.


Those who have progressed in recovery didn't do so by sitting around and harumphing about what their (F)WS did or didn't do. And, in fact, many a betrayed spouse put a TON of effort into winning their spouses back from their wayward mindset before they expected ANYTHING from them.


You keep putting the cart before the horse, and you know what it results in!


I empathize with betrayal. With hurt. With pain. With sadness. With anger. With resentment.


I DO NOT sympathize with inaction.


You can either begin to manage your injuries, or you can continue to lie there kicking and screaming about it being unfair. It won't get you very far. If you peek around these forums enough, you'll see it. There are people who have been around here for YEARS kicking and screaming about their spouse and excusing their own inaction or improper action... and their marriages are just as wrecked as day 1 of them being here.

Some have taken to the point that their spouses are in no way interested in this program because it has become a cudgel for the upset spouse.

This program is designed to benefit BOTH spouses, and it's proper use provides motivation to BOTH spouses.


Don't wanna hang around the forums? Pony up and do a few phone sessions, as obviously you can't find "motivation" here... let the pros do it.

[video:youtube][/video]


Yeah... thought of you when I saw this, too.

That was actually not hard to write at all. I also have known for a long time that my enlistment was not wholehearted. Frankly, I read thread after thread and wonder how CAN a BS wholeheartedly enlist in recovery with a less than enlisted WS??? Even if the WS pulls out ALL THE STOPS and does whatever they need to do to win back their betrayed spouse, I would imagine most BS's are not wholeheartedly enlisted in the process, much less if the WS doesn't respond in that fashion.

WHY. Well NG, if you have some compelling thoughts on this please, be my guest. I have to admit I had to re read your 'suggestions' a few times and I am still trying to figure out what the heck you are saying...so, spell it out for me will ya?

I would guess...1) I still am not convinced that I am not going to get a phone call, knock on the door, etc. only to find out there are more EA's, PA's, etc. that I don't know about. 2) LB is depleted to next to nothing levels and H is not making much effort to fill that up again. 3) I just need to see that he WANTS me, wants to make me happy, right his wrongs, heal my pain, make amends, have me in his life, and all that jazz. I need that. If he was ever in an ongoing A, and said ILBINILWY like some WS's have said, it would only take once and I would be gone. I can't STAND the thought of being with someone who does not admire and want to be with me 100%, even though clearly I have been. I don't know why but to me that is paramount.

Just to name a couple roadblocks to my wholehearted enlistment. I'm sure I could find more.

But please NG, if you have suggestions to the ROADBLOCKS, to helping to enlist me, please share them. I can get beat up in a million ways about not doing the work, but that doesn't help me WANT to do the work. Guess that is my problem, more or less.

I am not looking for motivation from YOU, the vets or the posters on these forums. I am looking for motivation and inspiration from H, I guess.

I feel you have been unfair to me HHH. I am trying. I am here. I am reading, and I am educating myself. I have set up EP's for MYSELF as well as for H, changed my entire mindset on OS friendships and boundaries and wholeheartedly incorporated them into my lifestyle, amongst other things. I have made many changes to my life, working hard to fill EN's in ways that I never have before, and avoid LB's whenever possible. I have made the conscious choice to let go of much of the resentment I started this thread with. I have failed in the UA time and continue to fail, but I cannot spend UA time by myself, that DOES take two people to mastermind as do many other parts of this recovery process, and I cannot be responsible for the other party who, is NOT on here seeking advice and is NOT working as hard to salvage this as I am. So please, be nice. I would not say NeverGuessed is a wishy washy candycoater, but he never makes me feel like just checking out the way that you do. Just sayin.

OK that is going to warrant some name calling such as that I am a whiney drama queen having a pity party, or something like that. Just trying to tell you it impacts me, and not in a 'hrm he must have something to say, listen up' sort of way.

That's not me. I DO expect something back. I don't know how much I am willing to do to 'inspire' this marriage without as much or more coming from the man who destroyed it in the first place. He should WANT to make amends, and be willing to do what it takes to get that. And if he's not, then thats that. That's where I am.

PS We had a phone session once with Steve. Didn't go so well, not well at ALL. It was at a time H was still actively trickle truthing me and I knew it, Steve supported him and made me feel like the bad guy for not wanting to go all in with recovery, why would I do that when I knew he was still actively lying to me??? I felt totally backed into the corner, the lies were not addressed, just my inability to wholeheartedly enlist in the recovery process, which was a crock because there WAS no recovery just more lies. I am just a little bit turned off to more phone counciling after that.

Truth. When do I say that moving forward isn't about moving forward in this marriage? I guess that's the crossroads. I don't want to point the finger of blame at anyone else for not being where I want to be, and I also don't want to waste anymore time.

Thanks Chickadee. I just don't have it in me to force him to prove anything to me anymore. I see this as his OPPORTUNITY to prove that he has come clean, he can take it or leave it. If he leaves it then that is that. That is my answer. I see me staying with him as an opportunity for HIM to win me back, not the other way around. I know I am being totally stubborn about that, its just how I feel. I know its an approach that will likely lead me to D, and at this point, I don't care, because if I recovered by putting 100% in and just bringing him along for the ride, then thats not good enough for me.

If I left today I would have no regrets. He cheated on me less than 2 yrs into our marriage. He lied to me for a decade. I stayed, when I didn't have to, and gave him a CHANCE to redeem himself and redeem this marriage. I was willing to put 100% into recovery IF HE WAS. He has not taken that opportunity. He should have regret for that, not me.

So apparently what you've tried for the past decade hasn't worked. You aren't willing to do MB, and you said you'd have no regrets.

So then, why are you still in it?

I didn't know I was in recovery for a decade, because I did not know about the A until a year and a half ago. But you are right that our M sucked, and everything I tried failed, and I did not have the benefit of knowing about MB.

I AM willing to do MB. I am NOT willing to do MB BY MYSELF, without the enthusiastic participation of my WH. Let us not dilute that fact. His action DOES inspire me. When he puts 1% in I put 10% in happily. And his inaction, well, clearly that does the opposite.

No, I would not have regrets.

I am still here, I guess, because I hold on to some minute teensy tiny little shred of hope that somewhere inside of him he will man up and make this right. I don't know why, after so long of inaction on his part, I believe that is possible, but I still do. Guess I am a fool for that.

Why not write Dr. Harley?

Have you given him clear expectations and he has not met them? So maybe it's time to prepare for Plan B?

Marriage Builders is not a marriage at all costs you know?

Even Dr. Harley has told wulffpak_girl (the FWW) to separate and Plan B her BH because her BH will not engage in recovery.

Have I given him clear expectations? That is a VERY good question BH. We have set up EP's and boundaries. I have implemented them in my own life and made sure he knew they were 100% expected to be implemented in his life. As in, NO OS friends, nothing other than minimal business contact really, complete and total transparency, etc. There's no messing around with this, no room for error. He has followed these things to a T and we often discuss them. There's no mixed messages here, I hear about another woman that I have even an inkling might be more than minimal business contact and that's that. And I expect the same from him.

The rest is...fuzzy.

The fuzziness comes from my own lack of desire. I have spurts of energy, where I am focused, determined, relentless at recovering this. But when he pushes back that turns around VERY quickly. I am clear about the fact that I will not be in the same marriage I have been in for the last decade. That if things don't change and we don't recover this I am leaving. I don't think he believes me though.

I guess his confusion is, can he get away with standard quo, bare minimum, and remain married to me? History would say YES. Will I really require more from him, require a strict recovery plan or leave him? History would say NO. Hrm. Never thought about it this way. Guess I am just blogging you an answer but that is a lightbulb moment for me. That my lack of desire to recover has been a message to him that I do not require recovery. Interesting indeed.

He knows I want more. He knows he is doing a substandard maintenance job, not a recovery job. He knows that many, many things still take precedence over recovery for him. Does he know EXACTLY what I expect? No, he might not. I have never said he needs to post on here, or that we HAD to do the online program to have accountability, or that we needed to do our at home program X nights a week, etc. I have suggested all of those things, gotten resistance, and just said screw it. I have not maintained my energy for doing UA time, and in fact get in funks where I could care less about it. I have maintained my stance on a poly, but often say I am resentful we have to pay for it, or hate talking about it, or am resistant to help him find a polygrapher, or whatever. I resist. Because I just want him to DO IT, and not have to be told to do it. I am really failing at this aren't I? IDK. How do I force myself to just keep driving ahead. I feel like I had resentment but energy when I started this thread, and as time goes on I am losing both and replacing them with indifference.

On a side note, last week we had a discussion about UA time not being met, and he said he is stressed every day because he feels like its an obligation and he knows he is failing on it and I will be on his case about it. Not in those words. I reminded him spending time with me was supposed to be a GOOD thing, not an obligation to stress him out. Frankly I think SF stresses him out, because he feels like I am never satisfied. Subsequently that continues to suffer. Thus, the negativity on my part, there is a direct correlation I find. Certainly things like that make me lose a little energy to work towards us spending UA time together.

I don't even know what to write to Dr H. I want to stay married, want a good M, but just have no desire to do the work. My H says he wants to be married, wants a good M, but also doesn't have the desire to do the work. What do we do??? Um, might as well write that to a chimp at the zoo. Come on HHH I called myself out that time before you had a chance too.

Plan B is not for me. It is either find a way to adjust my attitude and turn this around, or Plan D. Those are the only options. I don't have a reason to Plan B this really, I just need to make a decision.

Fantastic. You found out your attitude stinks.


Now, what are you going to do about it?



I can promise to keep being a pain in the butt if you keep coming back. And, if you can improve that stinking 'tude (with your husband, not with me - your attitude with me don't matter for spit cause we ain't married) maybe he'll improve his.

THAT is the reward.

THAT is the ultimate back-pat.



Or, you can keep wasting all of our time, when there are people who WANT to save their marriages, who WILL do the work who are here waiting.



Let me give you the secret to adjusting your attitude; QUIT BULL$#!++ING AND DO IT.

UW, while I was formatting a difficult set of questions for you, you pre-empted my asking them with the content of this most recent posting.

You don't like the state of your marriage; you surmise that your spouse is of the same mind. Neither of you evidently wants to expend the effort to improve your marriage, so there you both sit.



Now that I got that out of my system, let's explore a bit more, and following the maxim that the best place to begin is at the beginning, we'll attempt to establish the state of your marriage in the past.

Who pursued who, and why?
Did you each decide to marry out of...convention? boredom? duty?...or was there passion for the other at some time?
Pre-discovery, were you as tepid toward him as you are now? (It would probably be correct to presume some amount of ennui on his part leading up to his affair, but you might ask him that exact question.)
If there were marked disinvolvement on your parts before his affair, can you detect any objective cause - death of family member, job disruption, home-base change - or LACK of change in any area?
Have either/both of you been checked for chronic depressive symptoms?

In business school marketing class there was a term that you should probably be considering. It's BATNA, for Best Alternative To a Negotiated Agreement. Consider where you and he are right now. If you each decline to take positive action, would the resulting marital situation be something you could endure? If not, dissolution is likely, right? If so, would a life of single existence be preferable to re-marriage? Because in that case, you might well find yourself right back here (intellectually, if not actually) trying to kick-start that relationship.

Sorry for only having questions, not answers, but frankly, your apathy for your own life is something alien to my whole existence.

OK let me ask you this. If the LB is depleted, and I am just creeping up to indifference, how do I WILL myself to give it my all. Or do I just go through the actions without the sentiment? Sometimes I do that, like last night, and it caused problems when H said 'whats wrong' and I said 'nothing dear' and just did the actions without the sentiment, and he felt I was not O&H and disengaged from me, and that just made things oh so much worse. I am TRYING to do the right thing. But the energy that I once had is GONE. How do I change that. Stop calling me names and telling me what a bad attitude I have and give me some method to change it. I don't want to be indifferent, I just am. It took a long time to get here but I'm here, and I don't know how to fall back in love with someone and how to want this again.

What does Dr Harley have to say about that?

PS If you think I am a waste of your time you can move on to more worthy threads. I won't take it personal.

He pursued me, in the very beginning. But after the first date I was hooked, which is unlike me. After that I was more the pursuer, I would say.


I thought he was the ONE for me. I had dated a lot before meeting him, been engaged once, had a couple other unofficial proposals. At the time I like to think I thought with my head and not my heart, and even though I had been 'in love' with other men, they weren't what I wanted in a life partner. He was. In a million ways. I was smitten, I will admit.

I have asked him a million times why he married me. At the time we both agree he was too young, too inexperienced in dating, and not ready for the commitment. He says he knew how special I was and even though he was not ready to settle down, he did not want me to get away or find someone else. Like putting me on the backburner for later. I guess.


Tepid: No. I have always been very affectionate and loving, to the point where he is annoyed. Still am, far more than you would think reading this thread. He just says he was selfish and didn't care about me and yet didn't want anyone else to have me. He behaved as if he were single, and didn't consider me at all. But yes, ennui was a part of it.


The ONS: I was pg with our first child, on bed rest for 5 months. Even then I worked hard to meet his ahem, SF needs because I was worried about him, thats a long time! Although all other needs at that time were unmet, with no fault to my own. I could not get out of bed more than 5-15 minutes a day, bathroom breaks more or less. There was no cleaning, no RC time, no taking care of myself. He avoided me like I had the plague. During and post partum I was very, very depressed.

Understand I am resentful about and worry about this. Needs were unmet, I get it. How could I have changed that? What will he do if/when that occurs again? He spent 2 yrs sick with a 'mystery illness' a couple yrs ago, I have never been a better wife to him. He says that is a time he fell greatly in love with me, a time that turned him around.

Besides the ONS though, he basically behaved throughout our marriage as if he were single, more or less. Even during the 'good' times.


No.


Thanks for the vote of confidence. I was NEVER apathetic in a relationship before this one. I am a very passionate person, actually.


I don't have apathy toward life. Just toward my marriage. Isn't that what happens on an empty LB?

Unwritten,

Although I haven't read the entire thread yet, I already see that I can relate (check out my latest thread, if you'd like). I'm a similar boat right now. I will read more of what you wrote... sorry, no advice at this point. Just wanted to express my sympathy and understanding.

Starting at the end, because it is vital to the topic.....

I don't have apathy toward life. Just toward my marriage. Isn't that what happens on an empty LB?

Kiddo, two things here strike me:

Firstly, your marriage should define so large a part of your life that the terms should be close to interchangeable.

Secondly, NO, an empty LB balance should be worse than an intense hunger or thirst, to someone with the idea of a fulfilling marriage paramount.

Think about these as I take a break to enjoy my bride's "Zucchini Carbonara Pasta".

UW,

I hope you really listen to Triple H and NG.

Also an empty lovebank means you feel absoulutely nothing, no hate, no disgust, Just nothing.

Okay, let's keep going here....

...I had been 'in love' with other men, they weren't what I wanted in a life partner. He was. In a million ways.

List them, please. Maybe not all "million", but as many as you can reasonably fit into a post.

But after the first date I was hooked, which is unlike me. After that I was more the pursuer... I was smitten... I have always been very affectionate and loving, to the point where he is annoyed. Still am, far more than you would think reading this thread... I was NEVER apathetic in a relationship before this one. I am a very passionate person, actually.

Ignoring the fact that WH is your WH, describe his qualities today. Specifically compare him to the paragon that you thought you were marrying having the list above.

Have either/both of you been checked for chronic depressive symptoms? No....I was pg with our first child, on bed rest for 5 months. I could not get out of bed more than 5-15 minutes a day... He avoided me like I had the plague. During and post partum I was very, very depressed... He spent 2 yrs sick with a 'mystery illness' a couple yrs ago, I have never been a better wife to him. He says that is a time he fell greatly in love with me, a time that turned him around.

You and he might want to consider such a check. Yes, there are certain allowances to be made for the hormonal impacts post-pregnancy, but your (and his) self-avowed disconnect from what could be a very important portion of life sets off alarms.

And lastly, what is your vocation? I know you are now a SAHM, but what did you do prior to earning that title?

Hrm. Ok. The qualities I liked in H: H was passionate about life. Passionate about his hobbies. Beyond confident. Assertive. Sparkling with energy. Highly intellegent, brilliant. Highly ambitious in life. Yet conservative, reserved. He was the smart kid in school, the one who was every girls 'friend' and who you knew you could trust. The 'nice guy' that would never wrong you. Usher at his church. Strong sense of morals. Not a party guy. And he had a passion for the outdoors, which I do. I knew this was a man who would be committed to his family, a friend to me, have morals, be trustworthy, and provide for and protect his family. Those are the qualities that made him the man I wanted to spend my life with.

This is one of the issues I have gone through. I would not once, look back at the H I knew then and think he would be the one to cheat on me and behave in the manner he has in this M. I have dated lots of guys that had the potential to do that, and I didn't marry them for that reason. H was just that good guy that wouldn't. I know MB policy is that ALL people will cheat, I agree with that. But definitely there are people who are more at risk than others. I would have thought it would take the perfect storm for a man like H to cheat, from what I knew of him pre M. Now I feel like I have NO judge of character, if I believed that.

He is still intelligent and ambitious, very successful, and he does provide well for us. But I learned to see him as the corporate executive from the movies, who has unscrupulous morals and is totally self indulged at the detriment to those around him. His confidence to me now seems like self centeredness and a sense of entitlement, conceit really where he thinks he deserves whatever he wants in life, regardless of the cost to others. He is definitely not the 'nice guy' that I thought I could trust to have good morals and protect our family. That imagine is blown, and was long before I found out about the PA. He is the guy who goes to church and everyone thinks is a moral strong Christian, then goes home to live a very immoral unChristianlike life. Subsequently, we have barely been to church since DDay because I feel like we and our life are a big FAKE, people don't know the real us.

Since DDay, and losing the love I had for him, feeling the sting of my resentment, I think he has been brought down a few notches. I think the selfish conceit and sense of entitlement is gone, for the most part. Now he just seems sad, lost. His passion and energy are gone. I don't see him as assertive, I see him as avoidant. One of those 'don't know what you got til its gone' situations. I adored this man, doted on him for a long, long time. Put him on a pedestal. Nobody could match him in my mind. Even though he was not a good H to me, I maintained that somehow for years. And then, rebellion, trickle truth, crash. Now H knows what it means to have someone respect and admire you, because he doesn't anymore. I think that alone has crushed him.

So to recap. Pre M: amazing. Still think he was amazing then, there is no way I would have known what I was in for. Since hindsight is 20/20, now I can say he was starting to become controlling and manipulative. Its a process and it did start before M. M pre DDay: Conceited, selfish, self entitled, manipulative a$$, who I somehow still adored until I snapped. That was a process too. Post DDay: Thanks to me and my constant resentment and reminders of what a total A he was, hit rock bottom I guess. Sad and lost. Give me hell for that if you wish, I'm sure I deserve it.

I did have pre and post partum depression during my first and second pregnancy. I know what depression feels like. For me, I am not depressed. He has had depression during his illness. I can't speak for him as to whether he still feels depressed or not.

My BA is in Criminal Justice. My career pre SAHM was in Business/Marketing/Client Service more or less. Now I am the president of a non profit org. on a volunteer status.

Feel like I'm in therapy. NG's therapy. I am wondering where we are going with on all this NG but I trust you have a goal here.

Hindsight isn't 20/20.

Hindsight is emotionally driven confirmation bias focused on finding memories which validate a current state of emotion or belief.

Because of your current emotional state with your husband, you are dismissing and discarding the very things NG is asking you to recall.

You are "following your heart" rather than practical application of memory.


You are familiar with the Love Bank, no?


If you look at the basic concepts, and the way being in love is described prior to introducing the Love Bank, it's this simple;

Being in love is a series of positive memory associations with a member of the opposite sex.

Each positive memory association is a Love Bank deposit.

Enough deposits, and you are in love with your spouse.

That feeling is validated by 1) the way you feel, 2) the positive memories which you can recall which are associated with your spouse.




Right now?


You are not in love; you are angry, resentful, bitter - you feeling is validated by 1) your current emotional state, 2) any negative memories which you can associate with your spouse.




This is not going to change until you put the work in.


PERIOD.


This is not a sprint.


PERIOD.


You can't half-[censored] it for ONE WEEK and say it doesn't work, because NOBODY TOLD YOU IT WILL WORK IN ONE WEEK.



Either you value marriage, and are willing to commit to the program which will recover it and make it better than it has ever been, or you do not value your marriage and you will not do the work.


Your MOTIVATION is a recovered and improved marriage. If, after TWO YEARS of effort it is NOT improved, you are better off to divorce, as it is likely to never improve.


If YOU cannot commit to living the principals put forth in this program, it is IMPOSSIBLE to expect that your spouse will.


It all starts with UA time.


If you are not willing to commit to the bare minimum of 15 hours a week of UA time, this program will not work for you and you are wasting your time.

Oh, brother, NOW the pressure's on! I am no therapist, my friend, but I have been fortunate in my past in solving problems, probably as a result of my Engineering training.

UW, your words are in RED below. You mentioned you had read the thread from which the quotes in BLUE were taken. If so, could I suggest you re-read it?

H was passionate about life. Passionate about his hobbies. Beyond confident. Assertive. Sparkling with energy. Highly intellegent, brilliant. Highly ambitious in life. Yet conservative, reserved. He was the smart kid in school, the one who was every girls 'friend' and who you knew you could trust. The 'nice guy' that would never wrong you. Usher at his church. Strong sense of morals. Not a party guy. And he had a passion for the outdoors, which I do. I knew this was a man who would be committed to his family, a friend to me, have morals, be trustworthy, and provide for and protect his family. Those are the qualities that made him the man I wanted to spend my life with.... I would not once, look back at the H I knew then and think he would be the one to cheat on me and behave in the manner he has in this M...I would have thought it would take the perfect storm for a man like H to cheat, from what I knew of him pre M.

I met my future when I was a college sophomore, and she a high-school senior, about to enter my college's sister-school. We met in April, and there was no doubt she was THE ONE. We secretly pledged ourselves to each other that July. She was everything I'd ever imagined as my life-partner � independent; fiercely bright; beautiful; possessing a great sense of humor, and appreciation of humor in others. She had been raised in a very sheltered environment � highly ethnocentric family; the very much "baby" sister of two imposingly large older brothers; an honors graduate of an upper-tier NYC female-only parochial high school � and had almost nothing in the way of internal appreciation of her own worth. She was always skeptical of compliments, and never really absorbed them. She had one other quality that is difficult to describe � she did not think or act like a "girl". As we went through school, she was much more at ease with my classmates than even with her own. For her whole life she was never one to have a lot of "girlfriends". I was her first boyfriend (and lover), and I was fully confident she'd be my last... My wife was PERFECT, independent and accomplished in everything she touched. She had become an excellent cook; she sewed clothes for us when she chose to and had the time (I have about eight wildly colorful hand-made Hawaiian shirts); she hand-knit sweaters. I was the sloppy, overly-casual one; she made everything work � from planning vacations abroad to handling the family finances. Deep down, I always feared that in spite of my best efforts and commitments, I would have been the one to screw up somehow. She could never be that person. Mother Theresa would have an affair before my wife!

Eerie, isn't it, how closely the two pre-disillusionment descriptions align?

He is still intelligent and ambitious, very successful, and he does provide well for us. But I learned to see him as the corporate executive from the movies, who has unscrupulous morals and is totally self indulged at the detriment to those around him. His confidence to me now seems like self centeredness and a sense of entitlement, conceit really where he thinks he deserves whatever he wants in life, regardless of the cost to others. He is definitely not the 'nice guy' that I thought I could trust to have good morals and protect our family. That imagine is blown, and was long before I found out about the PA. He is the guy who goes to church and everyone thinks is a moral strong Christian, then goes home to live a very immoral unChristianlike life. Subsequently, we have barely been to church since DDay because I feel like we and our life are a big FAKE, people don't know the real us...Since DDay, and losing the love I had for him, feeling the sting of my resentment, I think he has been brought down a few notches. I think the selfish conceit and sense of entitlement is gone, for the most part. Now he just seems sad, lost. His passion and energy are gone. I don't see him as assertive, I see him as avoidant. One of those 'don't know what you got til its gone' situations. I adored this man, doted on him for a long, long time. Put him on a pedestal. Nobody could match him in my mind....And then, rebellion, trickle truth, crash. Now H knows what it means to have someone respect and admire you, because he doesn't anymore. I think that alone has crushed him.

My bride suffered immeasurably more than I in the period immediately following d-night. My recovery time-line was set back a bit as I needed to attend to her severly damaged psyche...I needed to spend virtually all my time helping her keep it together. Her "fall", in some respects, shocked her as much as it shocked me... I did arrange for a second wedding ceremony on 13 August. By that time, as explained, I was so much more worried about her mental state than my mental pain, that there was absolutely no chance that we would fail. The one thing, then, that I did that I take some pride in is that I accepted that her "transgressions" ended with my discovery, and I could assure her that my "failures" to support our marriage ended at discovery. If she would commit the same effort toward recovery as I, we had nothing to fear.

Can you see the "break" in the plotline as these second, post-disillusionment renditions play out? It's amazingly indicative that you were a Criminal Justice major, as you have brought the gavel down on WH. On the other hand, the engineer, who really enjoyed the status of his earlier life, wanted to fix the broken engine.

It is on the BS, in certain cases, to hold the marriage together and put the initial repairs in place. (Objectively now, not looking for plaudits, okay?) I was able to re-envision the life with the spouse I had in my first paragraph, and thereby overrode the pain of the betrayal, with the selfish goal of re-establishing that life. You either will, or will not, be able to bury your hurt deeply enough to let the experiences of your first paragraph be the target you will work toward gaining.

I fear your BATNA is too attractive for you to fully enlist in the fight for your own marriage, my dear friend. Having the emotional satisfaction of holding WH fully accountable for his actions may be blinding you to the concurrent damage to your own best interests.

It's there for you, UW, if you'll only reach out for it.

Eerily similar.

I have brought the gavel down. I see myself as one of the most bitter, resentful betrayed spouses on here. So many people seem so much more ready to see beyond the pain of betrayal, why is it so hard for me! I guess being mad is a lot easier for me than being sad, I do not like to be sad. I was sad and pathetic for years and somehow I have embraced the sassy bxxxh as stronger and more capable of handling things. Guess they are equally as pathetic though.

I have a very, very difficult time envisioning a life with the man from my first paragraph. I think you had that life for a long time, I did not. That was H pre marriage, I have never been married to that man. Maybe I was actually disillusioned PRE marriage and that man doesn't even exist? The vast majority of our history has shown me the other man, the one that is far from perfect, the one who I DON'T want to be with. I don't want to fight for that man, that will just end up with me hurt again.

I had to look up BATNA again. As always, I'm not exactly sure how that applies here, lol. I do know how to read rights to a perp though:)

I know its damaging my own best interests. I know a good marriage is best for everyone. I guess I just have little faith that it is achievable, for us. I have never had a good marriage, and I have never had a spouse who provided for my needs. I have never had a spouse that cared to have anything more than what we have now. I can hardly envision that its possible.

IDK. I'm rambling. Feel like my feelings are almost always all over the board on this. At the end its just...overwhelming and makes me want to go do some IB and check out. Not going to, but thats the compulsion when I get overwhelmed.

I really wish there was a way to hold on to the energy of the good days. I do have good days where I am really dedicated, really focused on recovery. My energy is put to better use to be more demanding about UA time, etc. But it is SO EASY for me to get off track, the slightest push back from H, and I just want to say screw it I'm done.

I don't know if this history is useful or not. For the first decade of our M, I wanted nothing more than an amazing relationship with H. I absolutely adored him, even though he did nothing to earn that, at the time. I'm not sure how my LB remained so high. I tried many, many things to get him to invest in our M. Talking to him, negotiating with him, filling his needs. Now I know that I was doing a ton of things wrong, like filling needs that were important to ME and not recognizing the needs that were important to HIM (even though he tried to tell me a few times). If only I knew then what I know now, because I had so much perseverance back then! The more I tried, the further detached he became. I didn't know about his double life, of course that played a role, but perhaps my perseverance and 'neediness' played a role in his detachment. Finally, I just snapped. I went off the deep end. I vowed that anger was better than sadness and that I was done trying to be the perfect wife, if such a thing exists (and if so, I was far from it). What's good for the goose baby. But with that, I became happier, more confident, lost all the baby weight from #3 and got into steller shape, developed all KINDS of fun relationships. Total destruction I see now, but guess what. THAT, is the only time H has ever seemed like he cared about me. He was totally into me! I was a raging bxxxh and had totally IB, and he seemed to respond thoroughly to that. Now, rebellion has settled down, and I am trying to get my head in the game of recovery, and he is more withdrawn and detached again. Hrm. This is not a pattern that pushes me into trying again. Working hard to get him to invest = detachment. Rebellious IB behavior = affection and attention (and the best SF we have ever had). Just sayin, this is one of the things that goes through my brain. Makes no sense, at all, I realize, but it has just been our history. I call it the cat and mouse game, when he is running I am chasing, and vice versa, and I guess I just don't want to be the chaser EVER AGAIN.

Wow I'm on a roll. HHH is just going to shake his head and give up on me fo sho. I know this is freudian mumbo jumbo that makes no difference in the end, at the end the equation is simple. Do the work = chance at recovery. Don't do the work = no chance at recovery. That's that.

Well, UW, here's where we're going to have to part company, in terms of driving this to a conclusion. The "engineer" here knows what caused your boat's engine to seize up, and can advise on tearing it down to rebuild it. You, as the customer, however, have decided to acquire a sailboat, instead - quieter, less explosive, but markedly less able to deliver the goods to a fixed itinerary.

Don't misread my point - there's nothing wrong with sailing for some people, and some purposes. I just have no advice to give you on managing one.

Hrm. What caused my engine to seize exactly, so that if I decide to climb back on the ship and begin the daunting task of engine rebuilding, I can make sure to do it with all the knowledge I need for it to not seize up again?

Well, UW, I'm not an engineer... I'm a nurse.

I'll keep trying to give you the prescribed treatment as ling as you are on my string.


You are right, though. All that mumbo-jumbo don't change the prescription, sister.

Yes yes I know.

I know the prescription, just need to find the motivation WITHIN MYSELF to follow it, I guess. That better.

Meanwhile, H has been pretty darn good to me the last couple of days. He has reacted to my withdrawal with assertiveness to get me OUT of withdrawal, and it has helped immensely. Like I said, the smallest effort on his part is inspiring to me. Date night tonight, H has stuck to lunch dates and date nights like glue, regardless of what else has gone on/how busy schedules are. He comments often on how much he enjoys them. I know its not the full UA time, but the committment to something is a start.

Do you know how many BS there are that don't even get that from their WS?

...if I decide to climb back on the ship and begin the daunting task of engine rebuilding, I can make sure to do it with all the knowledge I need...

Ahhhh, so you want to UPGRADE from the free trial version of "Engee Diagnostics" to version 5.9, "Maxi-Drive"?

For that we need low introductory payment of your commitment to (effectively) give everything you've got to the process. We can arrange easy payments due every day of your life. Call us at 1-800-EnGee59, or indicate by checking the space on the form below:

___ YES, I agree to invest in my own marriage!

Call now! Operators are standing by!

There is no way in...heaven...the mods are going to let that stand!
Can it, blondie! NG is splitting the proceeds with them!

Well, last night I came to the conclusion that I just cannot move past the betrayal and all of our negative history, and asked H for a D. I love him, and its not what I want. But I am just so empty after all of this, I feel like I have nothing to give to this recovery effort.

There are so many inspiring people on this board, who seem to be willing to put things behind them and move forward, put 100% into recovery, drive the recovery boat if they have to. I wish I was one of those people. I really think after his ONS DDay I was ready to be one of those people. I remember being relieved after hearing about that ONS, sounds bizarre. After years of questions and months of trickle truths I finally thought I had all the info and that it was a crossroads, that we would use this to turn our marriage around. Its not the A that has drained me, as much as the LIMBO. The wasted time where everything was out on the table but H did NOTHING to try and heal me. The most effort that has been put into recovery has been in the last couple of months since I have started this thread, and that is half a$$ at best. I realize I am half of that equation, I wish I could put more in. I just haven't been able to find it in me to do so. The state of limbo is just draining me by the day, and it needs to end.

Anyway. He was upset. He said he loves me and doesn't want to lose me. I cannot stand to see him hurt. I told him that I would give him through the summer. I'm not sure what Dr. H says about time limits but I can't handle the limbo anymore. I told H I would give him through the summer, but he had to put 100% into recovery and do everything I asked of him. Not tomorrow or the next day, or a month from now, but when I ask it. Today I am going to set some specific guidelines about what exactly I want, and when I want it accomplished. There will be no room for miscommunication in it, no room for him to have to figure out the route our ship needs to take. That is all I can do to help him with his end of this deal, he either does it or he doesn't.

In turn I promised him the I would put 100% into recovery also. It does motivate me to know that this is it, in a couple months I will be filing for D unless we both put the effort in. Frankly, I had already decided that even if I filed I was still going to put 100% in. Sounds silly but I want him to remember me as the amazing wife I can be. Not the sad wife, or the resentful wife, but the one that I should have and could have been all along. Go out with a bang, I guess.

So wish me luck. Pray that I can muster up the energy to put the effort in that I need to. I guess I now have a 'plan' for the next few months, and that helps. I put 100% in + H doesn't put 100% in = D. I put 100% in + H does but we still don't recover = D. I put a 100% in + H does = recovery. I can't even fathom the last equation being the outcome after all of this, but we'll see. Putting Dr H's principles to the test, I guess. If he can turn my resentful and ready for D mind around, I will be a fan for life. But even if recovery doesn't happen, I go out with a bang and know I couldn't have done anything else before walking away.

OK. Have to go fill some needs and meet my H for lunch, kids are home so we have moved our lunch dates to a swimming beach in between his work and our house, so kids can swim while we spend time together. Really do love our dates, can't believe we never did this before.

So you are not going to hear any more whining from me all summer. I promise. Maybe some updates but no whining. Its either all in or all out at this point, no in between. I can't stand the in between. I will be lurking though, keeping track of RQ and some of the other stories that I have invested in. Thank you all for your help and guidance, sorry I am so stubborn.

unwritten, my heart hurts to hear this. But I DO understand. It is absolutely your choice, as it is for all of us BS's, to know how much we can handle and when to stop trying. I know I have felt that way myself at times, but know I have to put in more time and effort to be able to say that I did all I could. Who knows, I may be posting the very same thing one of these days.

I am hopeful that following the concepts and letting go of your resentment and anger will facilitate a great marriage for you two. Keep me updated and please stop by my thread every now and then!

Take care, friend

Thanks RQ and Chickadee.

I have put a 'mental timeline' on my sitch several times, the date came and went with no action on H's part and no grand move on mine. I am pretty sure he thinks I will never leave because I never do. Nothing I have ever done has spurred H into action, and that is not why I asked for a D now. As it stands right now, I am going to file. He has the opportunity to have 3 months to turn that course around. Rather than the other way around.

I realized I didn't need to be married that bad awhile ago. It is one of the problems, I think. For a decade I lived and breathed trying to make H happy with me (in all the wrong ways). Sad and pathetic. Then rebellion, and I was so PO'd I did everything I could to SPITE H. Total opposites but it was still all about him. I remember praying to please just make me not CARE about H, so I could move on. And unfortunately, it seems I got what I asked for in some ways. I embraced the idea of being divorced and moving on with my life. Now, its hard to let that go and jump back in to the fire.

Meanwhile, seems so bizarre to be putting my energy into this after typing all that. But I am. Lunch yesterday was very nice. Kids swam, it was 60 degrees little chilly for swimming but they don't care they are tough midwestern kids. H and I talked. He told me how much he loves meeting me for lunches its the highlight of his day (well I should hope I trump business meetings and papers with numbers... ).

We also talked on his way home from work about several things. All in all how to attack this with a vengeance, work every day on our M. We had some logistical things to talk about and he said they seemed irrelevant now, I told him they should ALWAYS seem irrelevant when in the same 'to do' list as our M. That I feel like we are busy and every other thing takes priority over spending UA time together, need meeting, doing our MB materials, etc. That when we have a to do list that stuff should ALWAYS be on the top of the list. Then when he got home we sat and talked at the kitchen table for awhile longer, about needs and how well we are meeting each others needs, which ones we aren't and why. We discussed O&H and how he still doesn't meet that need because he hides so many of his feelings on things (conflict avoidance). I think I got him to understand how this is deceptive and damaging. Also about SF, what I need from him to feel like that need is met, and he told me what he needs from me to want to meet that need (more DS support, more attention to PA). We are stuck on Admiration, which is a top need for both of us, I'll write about that in another post as this ones getting long.

Went on to an evening of doing Assignment 1 in our MB materials. We have done Assignment 1 before, but clearly re reading materials is not beneath us, lol. Clearly we didn't learn a lot the first time around! Then we were going to have some more...ahem...need meeting time but somehow we both fell asleep with books all over and my poor little doggie still in his kennel (he usually gets out to sleep in bed when it is time for 'sleep'). All in all, I feel it was a very productive day.

So PA. I have a little bit of a hangup about this, talk me down from it please. I am 5'10 and wear a size 6. I was very thin when H and I met, was more a normal weight when we got married, then with every pg gained about 60lbs regardless of how active I was or wasn't. Silver lining: big healthy babies, my last was almost 10lbs, lol. I lost the weight after every baby, of course my nice 6 pack abs have never looked the same boo hoo but I digress. Now being tall I fluctuate within 10-15lbs and yes I can tell a little more weight here or there, but basically I am not 'overweight' by any means and fall within a normal weight range, when we got married and when I was in the rebellion stage I was at the very low end of that and now am probably close to the mid to high end after a lazy winter. Still squeezing in those size 6 jeans tho! I guess I just don't weigh myself every day or obsess about it, I know when I am being disciplined and when I'm not, am active by nature and just try and naturally balance that without obsessing over a scale. I am a bit of a tomboy and not very primpy, but I am naturally a knock out and not afraid to admit it. I do not care about PA, so it makes no difference to me, but I get a LOT of attention for my appearance, even in my old age:) .

I could tell during the rebellion phase that H was way more attracted to me. Some of it was that I was sad and pathetic for years, lost my sass and confidence, and because of that didn't take care for myself and look as nice. And during rebellion I became sassy and confident again, and took better care of myself. Since then my weight has fluctuated a little (yet still in a normal range) and my attitude has not, I am still sassy and confident. But he is not as attracted to me anymore. I called him out on that last night. He always says PA is not important to him but I can tell thats not true by our history. As part of our O&H convo I said you need to tell me the truth about this. He admitted PA/weight, etc. is more important than he lets on. He would like me to be the weight I was when we met. When we met I was pretty far BELOW the normal weight range for my height and ate one meal a day at best. Wasn't a very healthy lifestyle. Now, I can admit that there are things I can do to improve PA. I have had a lazy winter and need to lose a good 10-15lbs this summer, bump up my workouts. And I also can primp more. He mentioned that I have incredible sex appeal and I need to use that to my advantage more. I do have incredible sex appeal, but I have kindof turned that off as part of my boundary setting around other people, its hard to have it with him and not in general you know. So yes there are things I can do to improve. But I guess what I am saying is that, I am as is a very attractive woman. Without even putting effort in. I feel like as is he should want SF with me, there is certainly nothing about me that is a total turnoff. IDK I guess I feel like his expectations in that dept are a little off. Frankly if I get to the weight and body that he wants, it will require near starvation on my part and a VERY disciplined lifestyle, and probably some cosmetic surgery on my mama abs.

I guess my question is how far does one go to make their spouse's PA need happy? He rates PA not even in the top 5, yet he says it is a reason for not wanting SF as much, and I guess without posting a photo of myself I can only say, I think thats a tad ridiculous. Help me understand this need better, it is not a need of mine.

This one will be shorter I promise. A high need for both of us is Admiration. For a long time I had a GREAT deal of admiration for H, regardless of how he acted. I had and still have a great deal of admiration for his intellegence, ambition, and success in his career. But I used to have admiration for him as a person too, his character, not sure why but that wasn't impacted fully until the rebellion phase and then when I found out about his ONS all admiration and respect for his character went out the window. And is still lost on the roadside somewhere.

I don't think H ever really had a lot of admiration for me.

My question is, how do I meet this need if the sentiment is not there?

I do try and comment on the things I am proud of and admire, like when he takes us out for dinner I comment on how much I admire his financial success and being able to treat his family like that, or when he fixes something at home how I appreciate him being a handyman. He won't accept these compliments though because he feels they don't matter, compared to not having respect for his character.

Last night he told me he would like more 'pats on the back' for the amount of work he has done on recovery, which he admits is not much. He said it encourages him when I admire the work he has done, rather than focus on what he hasn't done. I told him that it was hard for me to do that, because my expectation is so much more, it is hard to say great job when his effort is so little to meet my expectation. Also said it was the equivalent of him telling me how great it was that I don't talk to (X,Y, Z) male friend anymore, when I should never have had male friendships all along. I don't expect him to pat me on the back for that, I am embarrassed that I didn't see the damage my 'friends' caused all this time!

IDK. He feels very low and really wants this need met, as do I. He has had it met and really misses it, I have really never had it met so I guess I am just used to it. How do we meet this when we are at our lowest admiration point possible? O&H would dictate that we don't fake it, KWIM? Help please on this need.

What does he tell you is his reason for not wanting SF?

Has he had his T level checked?

He wants SF, just a lot less than I do. And never as passionate about it as I am.

He claims gf's in the past thought he was too sexually aggressive, which indicates that it is just me:(

He has had his T level checked and it is in the normal range.

His reasons are:

PA, although I have to work hard to get him to admit to that. He told me once it was PA and I held it against him. One because his ONS happened very shortly after the birth of one of our children. Now I'm sorry but I do not think a woman should be held accountable for physical appearance within a couple months of the birth of a child. And another because I am FAR more attractive than his ONS. Which makes no sense.

My sappy attitude was unattractive to him. Truth, it was pathetic and very unattractive and now I see that. It's embarrassing. But that's better now.

All the crap going on, mental anguish, I guess. Just can't mentally be there.

Last night he did say that in terms of the LB, it fluctuates so greatly right now and that just fluctuates his SF mood.

And I still think there is something to be said about how the supply affects the demand. He has had a plethora of supply, makes him think he doesn't have to work for it. Because, he doesn't.

POJA the frequency, variation, and intensity of SF. Seriously. Next problem?

Hrm. You make that sound so EASY NG. Not trying to say its complex, not to me, but then again, I always want too, in any frequency and any variation and any intensity. I would imagine its not as easy for people who DON'T want to, but I can't speak for them.

We did POJA it when talking about our needs awhile ago, and agree to a frequency. Little give and take on both sides. Variation kinda seems like a what are you in the mood for thing tho, don't really feel like that can be planned in advance. Intensity? How do you POJA that? That's kindof an emotional state isn't it?

Oh I don't know, I'm just cursed.

Your next problem is:

1) What is reasonable to expect from your partner in terms of the PA need?

2) How do you meet the need for Admiration without the sentiment behind it?

NG is correct.

Dr. Harley says when he counsels a couple and one of them is complaining about not having enough SF, that he tells them to schedule 3 times a week but before they have to have 3 hours of IC.

I think it's this clip. If not, let me know and I will find the correct one. Just getting off the night shift and need sleep.
Radio clip on SF intimacy

3 times a week? Good grief I don't want to go backwards. Our agreement is for 5 times a week and that was a compromise...

OK thanks BH I am listening to it now.

H does ask me how he can meet that need better, so he is taking an interest in it. And I in turn am asking him what I can do to make him WANT to meet it better, that's where all the PA convo and everything has come in.

OK had to turn it off because I have 'listening ears' around, will have to finish the clip later.

I am hoping that if we invest in everything else that will just come along. As always I can only do my part to do the things he asks to 'help' him meet my SF need, the rest is up to him.

Oh and with regards to the IC, and I have to listen to this clip first maybe it will answer my question. I guess my question is that neither of us have a high (top 5) IC need, SF is higher than IC for both. So I don't know that we would need 3 hours of IC before SF, good grief thats a lot. How about an hour of IC before 3 hours of...oh never mind.

glad you are back on board UW.

random thoughts

you are 5'10 and a size six - you are fine! maybe get the sass back in your attitude - could be a part of PA for your H.

Confidence is a part of PA IMHO. and you havent been there in a bit, so put on the lipstick, nails done and big smile- it will come back.

Also go out and by new M undies- throw out all the old, that would open his eyes.

how do you define admiration? how does your H.

since you mention you never got admiration, could SF be fulfilling that need for admiration for you?

you have to ramp up your IC- see how much you got from him last night, make it easy for him to talk to you, that means be quiet, you can add admiration into that conversation. "i am so glad you told me that" "i really like when you tell me how you feel"

he would like more 'pats on the back' for the amount of work he has done on recovery, which he admits is not much. He said it encourages him when I admire the work he has done, rather than focus on what he hasn't done. I told him that it was hard for me to do that, because my expectation is so much more, it is hard to say great job when his effort is so little to meet my expectation.

he probably felt like you just told him it would never be good enough. its like a kid thats proud of the B and you say BUT its not an "a". believe me i have very high expectations from my H, so i get it, but maybe you could just give him a pat on the back for starting to get motivated. I also struggle with this, but i do know i have to reassure H that he is moving in the right direction. ( positive reinforcement...)

random thoughts....

Please stop crying "wolf", UW.

You agreed to five sessions a week, right? When was that agreement reached? I'm willing to bet that it was prior to that post I quoted above. And yet you felt it...necessary?...advisable?...comforting?...to complain here about the Lackanookie Railroad you're riding.

Anyway, you have a rough parameter defining the solution to your "jiggy" puzzle. Follow it, UNCOMPLAININGLY, even to us. Why, because it's very unlikely that you can isolate your emotions from him - explicit bitching to MB will result in implicit bitching detected by XWH. Enthusiastic agreement precludes resentful, coerced conformance, right? Look, I have no idea why 0.71 times per day is not enough for you and a burden to him, but that's what YOU agreed to.

Okay, let's get out of the sack - what ELSE would you want advice on?

Man... what happened here?


I look around, and I see UW working CONSTRUCTIVELY?


Awesome.



UW - give it a week.


If that works, give it another.


If that works, give it a month.


Then 6.

Then a year.

2 years out, see how it looks.

Thanks chickadee. So I am confident right now, wasn't in the past but am definitely confident and sassy now, so that shouldn't be the issue. And ya I think a size 6 should be fine too. But he doesn't feel the same. So what do I do about that? Should I be willing to go to any lengths to have the appearance he wants? PS I always wear lipstick, have just started to get pedi's since this started (see HHH I have been doing SOMEthing here)...big smile ya that has been gone for awhile lol. You got me there.

I like new undies, I might just do that.

IDK how to say I define Admiration. I always used the words 'I wish you ADORED me' and I guess thats what I used for admiration. Meaning, thought I was the best thing since sliced bread, thought he was lucky to have me, etc. I always think you can tell that in the way a person LOOKS at you as much as what they say and the care they give you. But I do realize now I WASN'T the best thing since sliced bread, in many ways. I was just reading HNHN last night and thinking to myself of all the times in my former M life where I had a little pity party about H not loving me...and realize now that I was so in control of that and just didn't know how to fill that love bank up.

He defines admiration I guess as me admiring his character, thinking highly of him as a man. Which has taken a huge hit, obviously.

But I guess IDK how to specifically ask for that need to be met in action, nor does he.

Thank you for the advice on being quiet during IC, and also trying to encourage his progress. I will make a valid effort to do both.

UW, I'll tell you that for a man that isn't completely shallow, nothing ruins a woman's attractiveness worse than a bad attitude, you know?

Besides that, do pay attention to your manner of dress. Maybe even have some fun, and take your H out clothes shopping with you, and let him (using PoJA) "dress" you.

I hate shopping with my wife, but I love shopping FOR her. She has even enjoyed it, as I have (per her) a more adventurous eye for her clothing.

Your confidence is going to help... as will some "drive-by" flirting. Little touches, kisses, etc.

You might even do some "seed planting" by sending him suggestive messages, or making comments during the day.

Also, it is recommended (per Dr. Harley) that you schedule SF, even doing so earlier in the day when you both have the most energy.

Work it out with your H!

Oh NG. Read through the last several posts I have had, I was not bxxxhing about SF. I was stating the fact that H and I have been communicating about how he could better meet that need, and what I could do to meet his needs so he would want to meet that need. What I could do. Not bxxxhing about what he isn't doing but talking about what I could do. Dude thats progress and I thought that's what you wanted to see, so not sure why you think I'm crying wolf. Sheesh.

I am actually not complaining at all about it. Won't say the agreement is being followed all the time, or that my need in general is met, but I am not really focusing on it right now, more focusing on what I can do to meet his needs with the hope that all of my needs are impacted as an outcome.

PS I ALSO gave you very specific things I wanted advice on, but you are stuck on this SF thing for some reason and ignoring my questions about admiration, for instance.

I know I've been more than chatty today though, and you've had your work cut out for you...

Ring ding ding ding!

And until your actions say otherwise, he will continue to feel that way (any repentant wayward can testify to this).

Obviously, his past actions were not admirable.

Let it not be said that we men are not sensitive. We are. Our feelings of manhood are often tenuous.

I wonder if there wasn't a part of your M previously that couldn't be summed up here;

http://www.marriagebuilders.com/graphic/mbi8122_happy.html

I used that failed strategy. Didn't work.

You are right. My attitude has haphazardly sucked, for a long long time.

Manner of dress. Ya I'm a blue jeans and tank top/tshirt/sweatshirt gal on a day to day basis I'll admit. I'm not fancy. Totally agree that I need to step that up.

We have actually been focusing on my flirting. I am wearing a rubberband around my wrist. I am TOO flirtatious and a little bit overbearingly sexual, I can find a sexual overtone in just about any comment or situation. Instead of being so aggressive I am snapping my wrist. Less is more...less is more...

He can schedule it. My day is pretty free and I always have energy.

PS Do you realize how much I am agreeing today? What is going on here, some alien force is taking control of my brain.

Didn't get back to this yesterday. So what is your advice HHH on how to change my actions regarding Admiration? I guess in the last couple of days I have been embracing all the many things I have done wrong in this relationship, the ways that I have made myself unapproachable in conversation, and not filled his most important needs, etc. I am not really looking for him to fill that need anymore, I am looking to myself to inspire him to fill that need, because in hindsight I see how I did not do that.

So right now even though it is a high need of mine, I am just trying to inspire it from him rather than just expect him to give it. But he is telling me it is a need that he is really struggling with because he doesn't get it filled, and is really needing me to fill it, and until he inspires that through action, after all of this, I don't know how to give it to him. That was complex... You know what I'm saying.

I will try to keep giving him admiration for the things I still do have admiration for, including his work on recovery. I think what he WANTS is for me to tell him what an amazing man and husband he is again, which I used to do. I used to brag about him to all my friends (trust me, they were all royally annoyed at how 'perfect' he was) and to compare him to other men and think no man could measure up, and I guess that showed in every little thing I said and did. Not so much anymore, and that is what he wants back. Can't really give it to him because I just don't feel that way, right now.

How do I fix this Admiration thing? I think he didn't realize all the little things I said and did all the time to give it to him until now that it is gone, and I can tell he gets depressed just thinking about it and realizing that he lost that. I want to fill his LB with admiration, but don't want to fake it.

Last night we spent a couple hours UA time, and finished Assignment 1 from our home program.

Also H scheduled a poly for next Wednesday, and I am writing up my questions for it now. Will be happy to get it over with, regardless of the outcome.

Tonight is date night, we both LOVE date night. Our date nights are 2 hrs, usually dinner and IC, followed by putting kids to bed and then spending time together afterwards too.

And now I'm off to order new bedding for our bed, and new towels for the bathroom. When talking about his high need for DS this week I asked him to identify what the greatest impacts are in the house, as in, if I can't get to my 4 hrs of cleaning on a day and instead only have 1 hr for some reason, what are the most impactful places for me to tackle that bring him some happiness and peace. He mentioned the master bathroom and how when he goes to change after work it is relaxing for our master bed/bath to be clean. (I also think when we are locked in our bedroom at night for IC/UA time it is helpful to have peace around us....) So I am going to order some bright new bedding and towels and try and make it a little more homie. I'm not very good at making things homie. Surprise surprise.

Ordered SAA yesterday, books are 25% right now FYI:) Although since I am in the recovery thread most of you probably already have them. I have never read SAA and have learned everything that I know about boundaries/EP's from this forum and website, so excited to see what else I can learn from it. We have the whole boundaries/EP's thing tight right now.

H was kindof disengaged during date night last night, but I did not let it deter me and he started to turn it around by the end. Wish I could have finished him off with my charm after our date but opposition child threw a wrench into our post date plans with a 2 hr tantrum. Oh well can't win them all.

how are your poly questions coming?

Have you seen the new newsletter?
How to negotiate when you are an emotional person

Here's an update on the poly. Friday night I called to speak to the poly guy, to discuss my concerns and develop questions. It was VERY frustrating and left me feeling very negative and upset. I only had 3 questions that were broad. He immediately told me he could not ask anything in regards to EA's or non tangible 'relationships' because they are so subject and there is so much room for error. He said that he had to stick to short and sweet yes/no questions regarding physical acts. I get the subjectivity, but there are a LOT of things that happen that don't have to be physical acts, and clearly, I want to know about that as well. He shy'd away from asking about even such things as sexting, sex chat, sexual emails, phone sex...etc. all of which H had done with one of the OW's. Those seem like more 'tangible' yes/no things vs. emotional things so I didn't understand why he couldn't ask about those.

Two of my questions were related to the two main OW's, the ONS and the EA that included all the sex chat/talk/photos...my questions were "are there any details about your relationship with (OW1/OW2) that you have intentionally withheld from your wife?" I have asked for all the details, and want to know all the details, and I want to know if there are things being purposely kept from me. I know there are details he can't remember, I am not talking about those. I specifically worded it to be things he knew I should know but pursposely and intentionally were withholding from me. Radical Honesty. The poly guy basically said that was an 'impossible question.' Why? Because in his many years of experience, EVERYBODY is hiding something from their spouse intentionally. I should focus on the main acts such as did he have sex with this person or that person, and forget about the minor lies and omissions. He said he would not pass a poly that included that. I said well listen up then, I'm not 'everybody,' I expect RADICAL HONESTY, and that INCLUDES the 'trivial' lies and omissions. If H is still lying to me about ANYTHING, I want to know that and it is the very reason I am paying you to do this test, so do it.

So apparently I have created a test that is 'tough' and next to impossible for any spouse to pass because we are all lying or lying by omission about something. He didn't like me very much, and I didn't like him. I almost cancelled the test but since he was the best one we could find in our area and it has taken us SO LONG to get this thing scheduled I decided to go ahead with it.

Then I went to H and told him about this convo with the poly guy. He said he wanted me to ask the questions that would give me peace, whatever they were. It was my choice. He did however, later come to me with one last detail of his ONS that he said he believes he never told me and he was afraid it would catch him up on that question so wanted to tell me. It was an explicit detail that I don't fault him for not telling me, I didn't ask and it isn't something you would want to tell your spouse (or really something that I would have wanted to know, frankly). It was very painful. I tried to keep a stiff upper lip about it but within a minute melted into a sobbing puddle for about an hour and was pretty much a wreck for the rest of the night. If there is a way to possibly imasculate a woman, I guess that's what it did. So it was a rough night all in all but he was great through it all.

I am proud of myself for not letting that new pain cause me to withdraw, which is exactly what I wanted to do. I wanted to withdraw and frankly bc it was explicit sexually it made me want to not have SF for a couple months, both because it really hurt my sexual pride and also because I wanted to make him pay! Goodness I have a vengeful side. But in the morning I decided that I was not going to let this set me back. (Plus, you all know I can't go a couple months without SF...) The rest of the weekend I was engaged and we talked a lot about the A's (his and mine, any unanswered questions, etc.) in a very civil way. I know we are supposed to not rehash them ever, but with this poly coming up I wanted to make sure that ALL the details of every possible situation in our history were on the table in one fell swoop, because after the poly (if he passes that is) I want to never, ever talk about any of it ever again.

I am worried about the poly though. I am worried that there is more. I have no reason to believe that based on H's actions. He set the poly up. He told me to ask whatever I want. He appears to be 100% truthful to me and not worried about passing at all. But you all know how that goes... I'm not dumb and I know that there are lots of people in my exact situation who have ended up with a failed test. So...guess I will let the cards fall where they may right now. I'm not even concerned about divorcing him if he fails, I am concerned about more A's/details coming out. I just feel like the pain of new A's and new details is never going to end.

Thank you Brainhurts for your link to the newsletter. I read it over the weekend on my phone but will read it again today. Sometimes it takes me a couple times to absorb things, except when it is advice from NG and that usually takes me about 10 times.

Two questions I have this week.

How do you get past letting sexually explicit 'comparisons' not haunt you in the bedroom. I take great pride in my performance and have had that cut down a little bit, in some ways that are controllable and in some that are not. How do I not let that be in the back of my mind when I am doing those things. SF is very important to me and it has been dramatically impacted by this stupid ONS already, I want that to STOP.

Also, although I have invested in recovery with H, one thing I have a HARD time letting go is my contempt for OW1. OW2 also but at least she didn't lay her hands on my property. OW1 is a single woman who has probably gone on to have sex with multiple married men. I HATE HATE HATE the fact that my life, my children's lives, have been and will forever be tainted by this one stupid night and yet she walks away scott free with no reprecussions (except a moment of panic when she received my very well written confrontational email shortly after DDAY). Just doesn't seem fair. I really want to give kharma a hand here, and still obsess over what I can do to make her life a living hell (and oh do I have a long list of great ideas!). How do I move on knowing that she is just off doing her thing to other families not giving us a second thought?

((hugs)) that must have been tough to hear sexually explicit details. I haven't asked because, like you, I didn't want to know. I have no advice to give in that area. Sometimes the visions intrude for me and sometimes they don't.

On your other question about the OW, I remember discussing that here on this thread. Some food for thought
http://forum.marriagebuilders.com/ubbt/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=2622376#Post2622376

I still hate, hate, HATE the OW. For getting involved with kiss and causing problems for my children. For ruining my life and taking something I will never get back again.

Thanks RQ. Oh I heard all the details (that drunk off his a$$ WH could remember that is), it sucked but I was one of those people who wanted to be a 'fly on the wall' and know everything. This was more a 'comparison' in ways that I could not control. I will try and focus on the facts where the comparisons are WAY in my favor 1) I have a better body, even after 3 kids, 2) I am WAY more attractive, 3) if ANY man put us in a side by side comparison, I would win, hands down 4) I am still far better than her in the sack so suck it OW, 5) H actually remembers my name a decade later... the list could go on. Focus on the fact that she is a disgusting, cheap POS bar whore and I am the beautiful and loving wife that H wants to be with, in other words. Helps that he was never in love with her and doesn't even think she is attractive (hurts that he would throw so much away and cause so much damage for NOTHING).

Anyway. I was actually involved in that thread. Spewing thoughts of ways I could wreak havoc on OW1's life. Short from Indie's advice to 'not let her have rent free space in my head' I didn't really learn anything. But I am a slow learner, clearly.

I really want to do further exposure. I have only confronted her. Shortly after the ONS she was drunk at a happy hour and approached H, they confirmed she was on the pill and not pg (gag) and that neither had breathed a word to anyone. Which would indicate that she was a tad embarrassed about her sleazy behavior. Which means that I should make sure all of the people she wants to think she is an upstanding woman should know about it...

OK it WOULD protect other families from her secret life of bar whorishness, but I admit, it is mostly revenge I want.

I re-read that thread and saw that you had written in there, LOL! No, I don't think either one of us are ready to let the skanks go. And I suppose you could look at it in that we won our WH's in the end. Unfortunately my self esteem took a huge hit regardless and wish I could be happy with that. Love your attitude though!

I think any further exposure on your part would just be revenge at this point. Better to just let her live with her mistakes and continue on with her miserable, lonely little life.

H is at his poly now. Anxiety ridden day. My gut instinct says he will pass, just because of the 'between the lines' changes in him since D Day, but of course I have learned to trust nothing, especially myself.

He is paying in cash so I can find the results out today still. Wish me luck.

Good luck.

hope it goes well, come back and let us know how you are doing

H called and the poly is over. He said it was very stressful. He was supposed to go to work but is coming home instead, which makes me nervous. Although, he did say nothing new was revealed and there is nothing to reveal.

I find out the results this evening, it could not come soon enough. Anxiety is having its way with me.

Just hoping he passed so we can have a fresh start. If he didn't, IDK what I'm going to do. Go looking for Scottie and Indie to guide me on a good PB I guess. This sucks!

Stay strong. Good luck!

Glad that you may finally have some closure. Keep us updated..

He passed! Time to go celebrate...

The devil is now dead.

Get on getting on.

Thank you for all of your support fellow MBers!

It wasn't quite the monkey off the shoulders I wanted right away. It was like my brain did not want to accept that I finally had the truth after almost 13 years of deception. It kept trying to tell me there was a mistake, or somehow he manipulated the test. It took a couple hours to set in that yes, he actually passed, I actually do know the truth finally.

Why am I so guarded, its ridiculous. Our bodies way of trying to shield us from the pain again I guess.

Did I post these excellent clips to you about polygraphs already? What Dr. H thinks?
Radio clip on polygraphs
Segment #2

The past is behind, learn from it. The future is ahead, prepare for it. The present is here, live it.
- Thomas S. Monson

Sounds good, don't it? This is what I am trying to do. While I know that it will take some time to be able to let our defenses down and there will be triggers and what not, we should not allow ourselves to keep picking at the scab. And I am saying this to myself as well as to you

Sounds GREAT. I am a longgggg work in progress...

BrainHurts. I am looking for an article I think I once read on this site for a friend of mine. Her husband was telling her last night that they shouldn't need to 'work on their marriage' because if they were meant to be together it should 'just come natural' or something along that lines. I thought I read an article here that addressed that topic specifically. YOU are the go to girl for that so if you read this and can help me out I would much appreciate it (or anyone else for that matter who could direct me to it!). Thanks!

AWESOME quote, RQ! One we would all do well to remember.

Congrats, Unwritten, on the passed poly. It's natural that your brain didn't want to quite let go and trust yet, but hopefully - it will bring you peace and allow you to forge ahead.

Maybe these will help?
How To Thrive and Survive after the first year of Marriage
What's Wrong with Unconditional Love Part 1
What's Wrong with Unconditional love Part 2

In Addition to the articles here's an excellent radio clip.
Radio clip on why it's important to meet your spouses needs

I like this, too:


I Promise You, p. 44

Thanks for the suggestions fellow MBers. I will forward along these links, there are some links within the links I think will be helpful too.

I like this one;

I just noticed how MB posters resemble Raafiki;

"I know what I have to do, but... going back means I'll have to face my past. I've been running from it for so long..."

Deception... is a cooperative act. We must allow ourselves to be deceived.


That natural reaction is expected and the way this program works to recover from infidelity is to close any gaps in which deception could happen; transparency, radical honesty, and being too damned busy having a great marriage for further deception to happen.


Yet... there is a touch of deception involved; a little pinch of self deception - fake it till we make it.

At that point we are retraining that reaction to deception. We draw our spouse closer, and rebuild certain trust through verification, while learning to accept a single truth - no person should ever be trusted to NOT have an affair.


The two largest hurdles I had to pass were; 1) tossing away the foolish trust that infidelity could NEVER occur (I knew I could fall into it and protected myself), and 2) that no matter how many hippy-dippy quotes about forgiveness I read, I could not simply choose to give forgiveness to my wife, she had to earn it through transparency, radical honesty, and just compensation.


Letting go of those two major roadblocks, and allowing them to develop through working the program from my side is what has allowed our recovery to progress.



The third and final weight was this; accepting that who I am is fundamentally and forever changed. I know it, I see it, I feel it.

You will see it in the most seasoned posters.


Being either the perpetrator or the victim of infidelity is similar to developing diabetes, or going through a life-changing injury - if you do not manage your life, you will suffer the effects of that mismanagement (as evidenced by your marital state of mind reflecting your Love Bank balance). Now that you are educating yourself in recognizing factors that cause "flare-ups" or symptoms of suffering a "flare-up" it is your responsibility to follow your "care plan" for management of your life.

Maintain UA time.

Communicate what needs you need met and how.

Communicate what Love Busters are occurring.

Find out what needs your spouse needs met, and how.

Find out what Love Busters you are falling into.


When any of those things fall short, you will feel it - just like a diabetic can sense a high or low CBG.

EXCELLENT post, HHH!!!

All very good points to remember and you said them perfectly.

Agree Sunny D. I read it 3 times, just to make sure I got everything.

Hi unwritten, just checking in on you. How are things going?

~RQ

Thanks for chking in RQ! After being gone for several days on a mini family vacation I have been catching up on some threads. Saw that Kiss posted a couple times, and sounds like you two are doing good!

Oh we are doing ok'ish. There have been not so long ago convo's between myself and H where we discussed the fact that UA time in that amount is just undoable. I shudder to admit that! As we said that we thankfully still committed to DOING it for a few weeks and it is clearly, very very clearly the number one impact on our recovery. Time together = good feelings about each other and our recovery. No time together = bad feelings about each other and our recovery. OK maybe not bad but at the very least we both feel 'off' and disengaged.

So we now recognize the need for UA time. But it is so hard to get some weeks. For instance this vacation, great family time, something we planned for months. But little to no UA time. We come back feeling disengaged from each other, for sure. We have another 9 day vacation coming up in August and I am already dreading the fact that we will have little to no private time, no SF time, etc. Not sure how to work around that.

And H has been crabby. He has some health issues and when he is in pain, I know it, because he is crabby. Understandable but certainly not conducive to bonding between the two of us.

Just have to keep plugging along I guess. Work on some makeup UA time this week/weekend if possible. I guess we are so new into recovery that when there is a dip in things I have a little bit of a panic attack of 'here we go again' KWIM?

And I still obsess about how to wreak havoc on the lives of the OW's, I must admit. Often. Guess my brain just wants someone to loathe at the end of all this. I am just hoping that as recovery works I can walk away from them but so far, not happening.

Kiss and I notice when we don't get enough UA time as well. You start to feel like you are drifting apart and that is dangerous waters indeed. Do your best to make "appointments" with each other. Why is your time so limited? Is is because of work?

my feelins towards the OW as well. I have even been tempted to write her a letter just to get it all off of my chest. But that is a door I don't want to open. What I think I will do, though, is write that letter and then burn it. See if that helps. Perhaps you can do the same.

Keep plugging along and I'm glad that you got to go on a vacation. I could soooo use on of those right now! lol

~RQ

Very dangerous waters. H just started a new job a couple months ago. I always worry about new jobs because they equate to new potential women (his PA and most of his EA's were with work women). When things are good I don't really think about it, when things are 'detached' I definitely think about it, start to wonder what he does for the 10 hrs he leaves the house every day. Frankly, no matter what EP's are put into place he still has to WORK and he will always work with women, that is a good chunk of time I will never have a handle on. Clearly he is at a very vulnerable spot, I mean he has always been I guess but right now I feel like we are more vulnerable than ever. Even though he says after going through all this in the last couple of years he would not even consider it, words are cheap right. I won't say I also am not vulnerable, sometimes I think more so then him. The beauty of my life is that I am a SAHM so I have very, very little interaction with other men and with EP's in place/no male friends, etc. that is even more limited. The EP's/boundaries protect me right now.

IDK why our time is so limited, limited by LIFE I guess. H is gone working for 11-12 hrs/day including commute. He comes home, we eat dinner, put kids to bed, and by then its getting pretty late and we are tired. And we usually have some kind of logistical thing to talk about...finances, planning for an upcoming trip, what to do about some kid issue, etc. We have put logistical things to the side so much they are piling up as monkeys on our back. We do a lot of family stuff on weekends, we are an adventurous family I would say so we do spend a lot of family time together but we are usually not home so can't really steal away time for ourselves. Life is just...busy. I am sure everyone can say that. We do have to do a better job of scheduling things together, that's for sure.

Have you ever confronted your OW RQ? I wrote a letter to OW1 and still dream of doing other things to haunt her, expose her, etc. This was a ONS that she had a decade ago, I think she thought nothing of it after the fact and would prefer to just move on. I think my letter scared her a little. That makes me happy. That makes me want to scare her a little more. At least make her feel like she has to keep looking over her shoulder for awhile. I know obsessing about it is totally counterintuitive to my own recovery, but sometimes it DOES seem worth it (only on the very vindictive days, and I do have them).

OW2 I never confronted and I WANT to. I want to at the very least send her a letter too letting her know that I know about their secret affair. She sent H naked photos of herself too, and I want her to know that I have them. I don't, but it would be fun to know she thinks I do...

I just hate those women. I really want to see some kharma come their way, really, really bad.

OK I promise that will be the last your hear about them.

Last night H said he is not feeling the affection from me lately. I think I have been being pretty affectionate and nurturing, despite being vacation busy. He said he feels like I am just going through the motions without the sentiment, and frankly he is right some of the time. Of course a lot of my feelings for him have changed during all of this and sometimes I do have to just do the action, whether the feeling is there or not. I don't really know how to work around that.

I did confront the OW but it was in the beginning prior to her laying his hands on my H (if that is true, I don't know). She just told me that I was crazy and to leave her alone and denied anything. Since she slept with kiss went on dates with him and stole his time from his family...no. I want to, though, and it is eating me up.

yesterday i was at the hair salon, and i read an article by a woman whose WH left her for the OW. she put up an ad on a sex-wanted type dating website for the OW, and included her own phone #. she forwarded the calls to OWs phone, and also she contacted the men and told them to come visit her (OW) and gave out her (OW) address.

while wanting to punish the OW is a natural feeling, it is dangerous to want to haunt them in that way. the woman in the article ended up being arrested for a variety of cyber and personal crimes, and her punishment was having to apologize to the OW! you wouldn't want to have to do that, right?

unwritten, do you think you have these feelings because you're not feeling right yet with your H? and you can't take it out on him, so they are the next in line?

maybe i shouldn't talk, because i DID confront my Hs OW and was extremely nasty when i did it - no pulled punches from letty-on-fire. she ran like a filly on derby day, never to be heard from again. but i didn't follow it up with anything else. having her gone was what i needed to be able to move on. i didn't need to ruin her life; she was doing a good job at that all on her own. these women are, after all, stupid, and the karma bus will get them in the end thanks to their own selves and stupid choices in life.

i worry that you are actually very angry with your H and feel you have no way to vent that anger. what do you think? you are right that it hinders your recovery. what are you *really* worried about?

I am new to this but was just reading everyones replies. I, too want to go and run over the OW and then put it in reverse and back over her, HA HA! I wouldnt spit on her if she were on fire. She new I was pregnant and had to other small children when she got with my H. Of course my husband is to blame also but he is getting punished by seeing how bad he has hurt me. She just picks up and goes on, like nothing happened. MAKES ME SICK!
Of course she knows I couldnt come after her when I was pregnant. Now I could , but it has been too long(6months) and it would only let her now that it still bothers me.

Sorry for the t/j Kuwait.

Also coop can you please start your own thread and tell us your story?
Did you expose?

This is BRILLIANT. OK I won't do it, but it does put my ideas to shame.

I would never apologize to OW. They would have to throw me in jail for contempt.

To address whether these feelings are misplaced anger I have for my H. As I have told some well meaning friends who have suggested that what OW did was 'nothing personal' and she didn't owe me anything, so therefore I should not blame her, and that I should not take blame away from H to put on her feet. Both H and OW have their very own bucket of anger and blame. I am not stealing from one to give to another. H's bucket however also has a lot of love, hurt, and various other emotions that make it far more complex. OW's bucket is just filled with unfiltered anger and nothing more. So no I don't think my feelings for her are unexpressed feelings for him, he has his very own to deal with.

And he HAS dealt with them. He has definitely felt my wrath. We had well over a year from DDay until I started posting here, and that year was filled with wrath and that's how I wanted it. Yes I have to lay that aside if I want any hope at recovery, and frankly I really don't have a lot of anger left toward him except on a rare bad day due to his recovery work and just compensation. Just OW's.

What am I really worried about? Hrm. I guess I am worried that the kharma bus will NOT find its way to these women, and they will move on and live happy lives, completely unaffected by their choices. I would like to have a little justice in the world I guess.

Are you suggesting I am really worried about H cheating again or something like that? Well, I would be a fool to say that I do not consider that any option EVERY DAY. Of course he can. Of course any person can, no one can be trusted by Dr H's own words right. But I also don't feel I'm worried about that. I am a different woman than I was for a very long time, and there is a VERY clear path if that should happen. As I've said before, there ain't no FR's for this broad, his bags would be packed and locks changed so fast he would not know what hit him.

But I definitely don't feel any sense of safety or security in this relationship.

I think there are some OW who find a THRILL in being the OW, and would thrive off the continued contact and knowing that they are still affecting your life. If this were the case I would probably want to do the opposite.

In my case OW's both want to move on and keep this little tryst a secret, which makes me also want to do the opposite. I think it would rattle both their lives to have me make any contact.

In any case, enough venting about OW's for this week. Bad bad bad to focus on them instead of on our own recoveries!

Coop did you start your own thread yet? You should. I was a voyeur for a long time before I started my own. Even after months of reading and having a fairly good understanding of Dr H's principles, I still had a lot of foggy ideas about how they applied to my own sitch that had to be challenged by the vets.

Bad couple of days. Old behaviors rearing their ugly head. H has been DJing and doesn't even think it is DJing, I in turn have gotten resentful and the 'screw you' attitude I am prone to now. Both detached. No SF. I know I just had to bring that into the equation.

We were supposed to go out of town again tonight and have changed it to tomorrow so we could spend some time together, do something fun, get some MB work in, etc. Hopefully that helps.

Ran 5 miles today, that made me feel good. Working out is like a drug for me, my very own AD during the bad days. I downloaded some new songs to my ipod so it inspired me to have a chance to listen to them.

I guess us girls in R need something like toenail paint to focus on too once in awhile.

When we went through a spurt of returning to old behaviors, I figured it was time we redid our questionnaires. #1: it helped to refocus on the program and #2: needs do change at times.

One of my biggest fears is falling back into old habits without realizing it, because we're complacent. It's good that you recognize that it's happening so you can ask for something more and better in your marriage.

I don't think you have to redo the whole program again, but going back over certain questionnaires helps re-evaluate where you are NOW.

But you're right: it doesn't hurt us to focus on some nice toenail colors or something every now and then too!

(Mine are a coral-red color at the moment, with a sparkly flower on the big toes.

Well we are on Assignment #3 so we aren't really going 'back' we actually just doing it for the first time. We are on the filling out EN questionnaires but we had already done that so are just going to review them to make sure they are still accurate.

I fear complacency too. I sadly almost expect us to fall back into old behaviors. I guess OLD H is what I knew for a very long time, its hard to believe that this will stay. So I am ultra sensitive to any old behaviors rearing their ugly head. And I respond in an 'ultra sensitive' way...

I have a french pedicure but instead of a flower I have a paw print. I have agreed to the girly pedicures but I draw a line at little flowers on the toe, paw print is MUCH more my style!

OHHHH...that's right: you guys haven't gone through everything yet. Just remember, new behaviors take PRACTICE and conscious effort: then they become standard behaviors.

Naturally, some things will "revert" and that's OK - as long as the things that revert fall under the MB principles. For awhile I was scared of anything that reverted. Then, I realized that some things we'd done previously were just fine! I just needed to match them up with the program to see if they fit or not.

I normally don't do flowers on the toes either, but I like this one! It's unique. It's hard to explain but it's more classy than girlie. BUT...a paw print would be awesome!!! I hadn't thought of that! I'm sure our German Shepherds would love that! LOL

We bought the program a LONG time ago and did a couple things randomly then put it in the basement so, just starting it over again.

It is VERY hard to change behaviors. So many habits to conquer all at once. I am struggling with the DS, I had a pretty decent handle on it and now my kids are home all day and they destroy as fast as I can clean. I really need to start working on changing THEIR habits if I want to make any headway over the summer.

i hear that. i have no problem accepting my own consequences!


oh no. i don't think that at all. the OW has just as much blame and anger. they knew what they were doing, and they knew it was wrong. they just don't care.


totally understandable. the world isn't fair, and oftentimes it seems that the bad guys never get their due. but you can recognise the fact that these particular people in question make very, very bad decisions. they will get bitten.


well, no. i hadn't even thought of that!


ahhh, here's the crux. and you realise that is because you guys aren't working the programme? get those things out of the basement and work 'em! when you two start working the steps, you WILL start to feel safe. you WILL start to feel secure. and you WILL start to feel love and loved in return. it's crucial, unwritten, it really is. as long as you are just hanging in there, nothing's going to change. you have to create the change, and you do that by following the programme.

ah, you didn't expose. no wonder you feel so vulnerable!


this needs to stop. as long as the two of you are playing silly buggers (she does this, so i do that; he does this, so i do this other thing), you're not going to heal and recover. and no sf is a terrible idea! your bonding time (sf) should not be a weapon in either's arsenal.

unwritten, you know i'm no vet. but it appears to me that, in a nutshell, you have so much resentment because you guys are not following a recovery plan. you are rather caught up in plan c, and that's no place to feel safe, secure, and loved up. is your H onboard with MB? is that a problem? {{{{unwritten}}}}

Have you seen this?
Instincts and Habits

This is also a good clip. Radio clip

My nails are red with silver glitter. Gonna switch to purple tonight

Letty,

You missed about 10 pages of my thread but I know I am a tad long winded lol.

I gave H the summer to prove to me he is interested in recovery. If there is work done, then I am excited about that. If not, then I'm outie. I am totally done with Plan C.

He did get the books up, dusted them off. We have been 'working the program.' He is doing exceptionally well at keeping us on track with regards to UA time, our MB home program, etc. And I have had a pretty darn good attitude about it too, most days.

But no, still don't feel safe and secure. Should I??? Good grief he cheated on me and lied to me for well over a decade, I wouldn't think a few months of good work would erase feelings of distrust and insecurity. I would think it will be a LONG time before I feel those things.

Oh, and as far as no SF. I am not in control of the SF around here. Or we would not get anything done in this house.

RQ hows that purple nail polish??? I was sitting at the lake enjoying a margarita this weekend thinking that my french pedi was BORING, so think I shall pick something fun next time. With a paw print.

IDK I feel kinda bad stealing the Plan Bers nail polish thing. Maybe we should go with hair color instead. I change that a lot too.

It will take up to two years to restore romantic love in the marriage, and it could be longer before you forgive.

If after two years your marriage isn't better than it ever was before, you are better off to divorce.

After NC and transparency are established, the next important EP is restoring romantic love to the marriage, which is a 2 party effort.

The key to restoring romantic love; UA time. What to do during UA time; spend it giving each other your undivided attention meeting the intimate emotional needs of recreational companionship, intimate conversation, affection, and sexual fulfillment.

When you begin doing this, and both of you are avoiding love busters... with time you will feel safe.

But.... you know all of this.

HHH I've missed you. Yes I know all that but I still like you to stop by every now and then.

It has been almost 2 yrs since DDay, but since there was a lot of Plan C and other silly stuff after that well, I imagine that 2 yr mark did not start until really quite recently. Already I can say our M is better than ever before, but, the bar was not set very high...

Just this morning on the treadmill I caught myself thinking about renewing our vows, what I would write, what I would say. Aghast, since I haven't let myself 'dream' like that for a long time.

NC and transparency have been established for a long time. We have been working on the UA time, short from all these silly family vacations we are having to endure... LB's we are pretty good on except for a few bad days here and there.

I guess we just need to keep it all up for some time before the safety and security come back.

Forgive my ignorance. What is plan C?

It was kind of you to give him a two year mulligan. I hope the gamble works out for you. Though, you know your own attitude toward your marriage has improved in the past few months. That, sister, is probably a larger portion of your marital improvements than you are giving it credit for.

Plan C is a term bandied about when the MB program isn't being followed all the way, basically, or to exact specifications. You know, like leaving an important ingredient out of a recipe. In MB terms there is Plan A, Plan B, and then the Plan of Recovery... or divorce (unofficially termed Plan D). Plan C is kinda doing your own mix of things. It is not recommended.

I haven't read all of your thread here, UW, so I'm not sure specifically where you were/are doing Plan C.... but I'm hoping you are on plan recovery now! Plan C just typically does not lead to real recovery.

Here's a thread about Plan C.
BSs...Plan C is not a Plan

Just this morning on the treadmill I caught myself thinking about renewing our vows, what I would write, what I would say. Aghast, since I haven't let myself 'dream' like that for a long time.

Well, without interfering with current concrete actions, why not?

If by "dreaming" you mean "anticipating the satisfactions that would accompany better days" - isn't that why we fight through the immediate pain?

You were sweating and exerting yourself on the treadmill to maintain (or restore) a preferred level of fitness for your future enjoyment. "Marital effort" should be permitted its own anticipation.

Last night on date night H and I were discussing his father. His father lost HIS father (H's grandfather) at an early age, late teens. Apparently they were very close, and according to family members this was very devastating to him and he never really got over it. Which is evident in his negative attitude, his 'why me' attitude, his clear resentment for life and the fact that he seemingly looks at all of the ways his life has NOT turned out right instead of looking at all of his many blessings.

I commented to H that I think about this scenario in reference to our own recovery. That it would be a tragedy upon a tragedy to let the first decade of our M, the A's and the betrayals, define who we are FOREVER. To live our life with sadness, bitterness and resentment, defining our M by what we had been through instead of what we ARE (or at the very least, are becoming). That it would be a much wiser choice to put that behind us and move forward to live life to the fullest, learning from our past and applying it to make an even better future, thriving in spite of our history instead of wallowing in it. (Or something equally as eloquent, lol.)

Pause. Then he kindof teary eyed said, "cheers to that." And we clinked our drink glasses. It was a very touching moment and I almost cried (and this time, not for a bad reason).

I think the queen of resentment has made some progress.

Wonderful, unwritten! Definitely sounds like a turning point for you both. It sounds like you took my quote and really understood what it entails for the both of you and helped your H with some healing as well.

~RQ

Awesome!!! Doesn't it feel good???

BTW...you've been giving some excellent advice to others!

Thanks RQ! I'm not really sure what has turned us around this summer. HHH suggested that it was ME, but it really was a combination of both of us committing together. I was prepared to just go all in for the summer despite his lackluster attitude (and I was also prepared to D in the fall), and was happily surprised by the fact that he also went all in. Feels great, like we are finally walking down the same path in life.

Thank you SunnyD! I really appreciate you saying that.

And yes, it DOES feel good.

So here's a story about triggers. We were cleaning out our master closet the other day, getting rid of a few clothes. He put in a couple of what I thought were really nice, practically new fleeces. I said, why are you getting rid of those? He said he was getting rid of them because they were given to him free by the company he worked for when he traveled and cheated. He said he didn't know if that was a trigger for me but didn't want to take the chance.

Anyway, I thought it was very sweet and proactive for him to identify 'possible' triggers and in my best interest get rid of them.

So based on some of the comments I have received on another thread I would like to get some feedback on something.

I have received feedback from both MelodyLane, as well as Indiegirl, both posters who I have a great deal of respect for, in regards to my need meeting and H's need meeting.

This is in regards to discussing my meeting H's need for domestic support (cleaning 4 hrs/day, give or take), which I am not necessarily 'enthusiastic' about, and him meeting my need for SF and whether he should only meet that when he is enthusiastic about it.

The general concensus seems to be that I/we are sacrificing to meet each others needs and that this is a bad thing.

I guess my question is this. What is the differentiation between meeting needs and to some degree, sacrificing?

I don't like to clean, I don't really even like to be in the house. I could pitch manure in a barn all day and be happy as a clam, but vacuum, no. Yet H's #1EN is DS. So therein lies a problem. I am a SAHM and enthusiastically agree that as such, my 'job' is to maintain the home. I don't love to do it, I am sure I am not the only one, but I do so because it is a need of his. Is this sacrificing? How would I possibly meet this need without, to some degree, sacrificing? There is no miraculous thing that will occur in which if we have a happy marriage I will suddenly be compelled to enthusiastically clean the house.

That being said, I don't 'think' of it as sacrificing. I think of it (now) as caring for him by meeting his most important need.

Likewise, when it comes to my #1EN which is SF. Now the misconception here, since I talk about it too much, is that I just don't get any SF. On the contrary, I am sure we have far more SF than average, I just have a VERY high drive so, more is always better. In fact I was thinking about Letty's thread and how we were discussing H's need for PA and that he needs to be realistic about it, and was thinking that I need to be more realistic about my need for SF. H doesn't have any problems, he just has a normal drive, as opposed to my much higher one. Likewise, that is not going to change. Sure I can do whatever possible to be sexier and entice him or whatever, but drive is drive.

So when he fills my need for SF, when he probably wouldn't engage in that if it wasn't a need of mine due to his own drive level, is that him 'sacrificing' for me?

My point here is, I sacrifice by doing things that I am not excited about to meet his needs, and likewise I am sure he does the same. How is this bad? How do you meet each others needs without sacrificing to meet them?

I hope this question makes sense, I was a little taken aback by some of the comments made. I didn't want to t/j but wanted to explore this further on my own thread.

I am really working hard to meet H's needs, and he is doing the same for me. I feel like we've made a lot of progress this summer, and I just don't want to think we are completely going about this the wrong way, ya know?

Clearly I am in need of some education here.

I know Dr Harley says not to sacrifice, but I am just not understanding where to draw that line and still meet someone else's needs, I guess.

I don't think I'm settling for crumbs. And I don't think I am a renter. And I don't know what else could be going on here.

And, I don't think I will get a cleaning lady anytime soon, would be nice tho!

IDK I'm just confused by all that.

Hi Unwritten.

A blanket agreement to meet any and all needs of the other person is a bad idea because it puts your giver in control and builds resentment.

And as ML has said, giving into sex only to please one person leads to aversions.

Of course you should both find a way to meet needs, but you have to sit down and follow the POJA steps and only choose the brainstorming option that pleases you both.

If your H dislikes having sex in the late evening/early morning for example,because he's tired, then the POJA default would be not to do that. And keep going till you find a POJA solution you both like.

Dr H says the resentment of missing out is far less than the resentment of actively doing something you dislike.

If there is a domestic task you find pointless, but H wants it done, POJA says don't do it. Figure out a way to agree on the right priorities.

In fact Dr H has a scheme for splitting up domestic tasks I've seen somewhere. It depends how important doing the task is to you and how importnt the results are to you. For example I hated mowing the lawn, but wanted a nice lawn whereas my H had no interest in the lawn and never went out there. So it benefitted only me to do it, and that's why it should have been my job.

You will both have made LB deposits, much like people in Plan A who meet needs they don't really want to.

But its a short term scheme. Long term you should both stop before you build resentment and feel you 'owe' each other.

Do you know about the danger when in the state of intimacy is to 'give' too much, just as when in conflict it is to 'take' too much?

Let's make a better suggestion, UW... let's say that it is WE - the betrayed.

When we demonstrate to our (F)WS that we are unwilling to meet their needs, or willing to constantly punish them, and we stand wondering why they aren't all-in for recovery, we forget our part.

We talk a lot about EP's on this board, but most often leave the single most important EP of them all as the last thought; creating a loving, romantic, interdependent marriage.

It is the single gamble that pays off the most.

The trick ends up being exactly what is in GloveOil's signature as a quote from his wife;

"Do it again, and you are out on your [censored]!"

When we make that promise to ourselves, and to our (F)WS, we lend ourselves the strength to finally go all-in. Then, the gloves are off and no excuses remain. We will have a better marriage, or we will divorce.


You, ma'am, are not crediting yourself quite enough for the improvements that have been made.

First of unwritten, I think it's great that you are both so willing to meet each other's needs. Willingness is key. With that attitude, it should be quite simple to LEARN TO ENJOY meeting each others' needs so that no resentment is created and your lifestyles are mutually happy for you both with no sacrifice.

I've quoted a few articles on this topic.

No it isnt. Dr Harley has frequently helped people increase sex drive to a higher plane, even if it is not particularly low. It is usually not a medical thing, but a motivation thing.

One common motivation killer, which even those of use with high SFs would struggle with is to feel under demand. Even someone with a high SF need would feel put off by a demand for sex.

If sex is demanded, it is impossible for us to feel motivated, because our spouse doesn't care if we feel motivated. Motivation isn't even being required of us. They think we 'should' do it whether we want to or not 'because there is no one else'. (That would be a particular killer for someone with a high admiration need - 'I want you cause no one else is available')

On the other thread you said you sometimes 'just need to get some', which will sound very strange to someone without a high SF need. Those of us with a high SF need sometimes just want the SF, we dont care about the accompanying admiration or affection, thats how we know it is a true SF need. But though we may just want the SF, it's only half the joy of sex. Your spouse has the other half to this piece of wisdom and you ignore his feelings at your peril.

When you 'just get some' you are actually just taking some. It raids your spouses lovebank and the overdraft statement will follow soon in the form of aversion.

Your spouse is raiding your lovebank to get the domestic chores done. He is creating a sexual aversion while doing so to pay your cleaning bill with sex. If he reaches the point where sex becomes too unpleasant to continue, what then?

Your taker will become incredibly resentful. You did all this cleaning for nothing! He broke the deal!

I think it would be pretty easy for you to both explore which domestic tasks are true priorities for you both and how sex can be more mutually enjoyable.

You just need to lose this concpet that you 'should' endure and suffer to meet the other's needs.

It is sacrificing if it makes you unhappy. Maybe you don't mind doing it. For example, my DH loves getting his breakfast made every Saturday morning. It doesn't bother me a bit to do it for him, however, it would bother me if I did housework. Sacrifice leads to resentment. If you don't mind doing all that housework, then it is not a problem.

For me, I hate doing housework, and one of my H's needs is DS, so we hire a cleaning lady. I would be harming our marriage if I did it grudgingly and created a resentment.

Sacrifice should never be a part of marriage. Like I said earlier, that is how incompatibility is created. If you don't like doing all that housework, you should find another way to get this done that makes you both enthusiastic.

If you don't like doing it, you won't be able to sustain it for long and the longer you do it, the more resentment you will feel.

Indiegirl posted the answer to your problem in her articles, but you might want to also speak to CWMI about this. She had the same issue.

Awesome posts, indiegirl!! You nailed it!

Thanks Mel, Plan B leaves a lot of time for self-educating!

I hate cleaning DS too, so if I have to meet that need in future, I would probably do it through cooking as well, which I love. Particularly breakfast!

There's a lot can be done. Putting a notice at the local college to see if theres a student wants to pick up afew bucks cleaning, sending out the laundry.. My cousin pays her mother to do the ironing! You may also find that many of the DS needs your H wants are things he needs to do himself because they are of no importance to you whether they are done and you hate doing them.

After making clear it his responsibility, you can offer from time to treat him by doing it as a favour. But only when you feel enthusiastic.

Thank you all for your responses.

Earlier in this thread I went through a little whinage about the DS and how I hated doing it. I would have to reread it as I was being a 'little' defensive at the time and maybe didn't absorb it in the same way, but from my recollection the general consensus was 'shut up and clean the house already.' Someone also said 'what is a SAHM that doesn't clean the house called? A TAKER.'

All in all I was made to feel that this is just my job which had to be done to meet H's EN's and to just buck up and do it.

Indie, MUCH of what you posted hits home with me. Thank you for taking the time to give me so much info.

My hurdle is that I am a SAHM. I know this does not change the POJA and other concepts Dr Harley gives, but it does change the IDK atmosphere created by following them. I don't really mind at all if the house is a mess, as long as we are having fun, whereas H likes a VERY tidy and organized house. Therefore if we sit down and pick tasks that are important to us, most of them would go to his list and be taken from mine. However, he is the only breadwinner for our family and works 10 hr days to make that happen, while I stay home all day. He is a very hard worker and provides for this family very well. It hardly seems fair to transfer ANY of my household duties to him, much less the bulk of them. And if I were to do this, doesn't it make me a taker? To expect him to work hard all day then come home and do housework? And won't that create resentment in HIM to have to do that? Not to mention the fact that, if MBers laid into me about being a taker by not just stepping up, goodness knows what other people would say to me about it who aren't even privy to POJA and the like. Do I care what other people think? Ya I guess, because I would already feel guilty for having H do housework, if other people started pointing this fact out to us it would start to give me a real complex about what exactly it is that I do here...

Any other SAHM's who can comment on this, how this was worked out?