What is EAOTP? Thought I had them all down.

See, H never had an issue with anything I did or said to another man. That was the problem. It DID hit home, the day I realized that if HE were to do even 1/100th of the things that I did with another female, the proverbial doodoo would hit the fan in a major way. I AM jealous, and possessive, which is obvious by how I refer to him as 'my property.' BTW, if he was bothered by this I would stop, but he actually enjoys it, in the same manner I would. I had to hold myself to the standard that I would expect, and not the other way around, I guess.

The fact was, no, he did not. Or rather, NOW he says he did but in a very non O&H way he pretended that he did not.

I OTOH, kindof had boundaries for him all along, in regards to him having friendships with other women. Not happening.

IDK why I thought this double standard was ok, guess he just never challenged it. And well, it felt pretty good to have EN's met on the side.

Oh Miss RQ, I wish there was more I could do. So many times I wanted to just hit H over the head with a 2x4 and ask him what the he11 he was thinking. I kinda want to do the same to Kiss. I feel like either one of them could lose their entire family over laziness, or avoiding the uncomfortable. What a waste.

I hope he reads it and I hope it makes some ounce of difference.

I know a lot of people on here are negative toward MC but I think ours helped for the amount of time we were there. Our MC told me in an individual session that H thought very selfishly and could not or would not step out of his own little world to see what kind of pain he had caused, or to put me first. He saw things in our appts that I didn't even see, like when we were scheduling appts I would say 'this is what works best for me' (based usually on the schedule I had with kids, trying to arrange around their school schedules so I did not have to enlist the help of friends to babysit when I came), and H would say, 'well this works better for me' (based usually on his work, commute, and lunch schedule, all which CAN be rearranged). He would rather see me jump through hoops to make it then be bothered to do so himself, even though we were there because of the devastation of his SSL. These were little things I lived with, and barely even noticed, until the MC pointed them out. I had been telling H for a long time that he was behaving selfishly, it never sunk in. But when our MC said 'he is still very selfish and I think if he does not change that you should leave.' Now all of a sudden that hit him like a ton of bricks. Hearing something from someone else, even if it is the exact thing that your spouse has told you a million times and in a million different ways, can help. It is the beauty of getting WS's on this forum, I think.

So, I hope it helped somehow.

What? I can't eat chocolate cake for every meal EITHER? WTH kind of program are we running here...

PS I did a 3 hr workout today, I am DYING. OK I'm not really dying, but it was hard. I def dogged it at the end.

Once again, I am glad to hear this is 'normal.' I have NO IDEA how you maintain sky high boundaries in PB. Honestly, with my drive and needs, if H were with some AP and I was seperated and living alone and possibly even working toward D. I get the reason behind it, but it would be really, really hard. (I think I should add one more really in there.) As always, you PBers need a medal or something.

The bottom line is it is very addicting to get needs met by someone else, when you are not getting them met by your spouse. I know I fought tooth and nail to give this up, thank you NG and HHH and everyone else who held me accountable to that. I fought tooth and nail because in over a decade H had NEVER filled those other needs. I couldn't imagine life without getting them filled by someone else. I had no faith or trust that H would ever be willing or able to fill them, even though that is what I always wanted, and I was terrified to live a life without any of them ever being met. Which made giving that all up a very difficult venture, a leap of faith more or less. And it still is, which is why I still think about it and stress about it sometimes, I think.

I hope we can get MUCH closer, if ya know what I mean...

Oh ya, coy and not assertive...

Also, H said he would not self gratify at ALL anymore, even though he did say he hardly ever does anyway. Its a drive thing more than anything else. Also, he said he is totally fine with me using a cleaning service, and doesn't know how it came across that he's not. Well, might have to chk into that. Think I would still feel guilty though. That whole SAHM identity crisis thing.

I think it's Eyes Always on the Prize.

If you would feel guilty for NOT doing it, you are doing it for you and the 'result' of personal satisfaction. So it isn't a sacrifice. But you are free to review the role and shape it however you want. Your upcoming move sounds like a good plan. Its great that your H isn't giving SDs on this issue and that you've eliminated them as well.



I would have thought so too, with SF and Admiration in my top three but it's EASY. If no one is putting in lovebank deposits, then no one is attractive. As always, if we follow Dr Hs recipe exactly, we get the result he promised. There have been a few occasions when I've walked into a room and someone has made an instant lb deposit (PA) which you really can't prevent. But you just walk out again!

It really has been the most freeing time of my life, just me and no man to worry about. Not even having to worry about dating troubles.

Anything is possible with MB principles!

H never had an issue with anything I did or said to another man... if HE were to do even 1/100th of the things that I did with another female, the proverbial doodoo would hit the fan in a major way.

Yet another warning sign to verify the T level....

Radio clip on EA
Segment #2

Thank you BH for your clips.

I love your clips, but I can't always listen to them right away. My computer is in the middle of my kitchen, and although my kids pay no attention to the fact that I am always reading and typing on my computer, I think they will notice me listening to clips about the importance of sex! So, sometimes based on the content I have to wait until they are not around, which is close to never, especially right now in the summer!

Just want you to know that I don't ignore the clips, I just pile them up and listen to them in bulk when I get a moment to do so.

I wouldn't think jealousy/possessiveness would have anything to do with T levels.

I always felt like he just didn't care, like I wasn't valuable enough to him to have him care if I did anything else.

But like I said NOW he says he did care, he just didn't feel like he had a right to say anything given his own SSL.

Yet, even now (and I must say this DOES still bother me), since confessing to him about my RA, etc. he has had no interest in confronting the OM, although I have set up EP's for myself he does not ever check my phone, check my computer, check my facebook, or in any way seem to be concerned about me doing anything to break EP's. If I were him, I would. I hold myself to my own standard, not because he holds me too it.

I wouldn't think jealousy/possessiveness would have anything to do with T levels.

Take it back to the more primitive urges, UW, and you'll find territoriality (Yup, da woman ain't much different than a good orchard area!), and that is a highly male-hormonal instinct. "This is mine, dude, and you can't have it!"

I understand exactly what you are saying, RQ. I've always liked a little bit of jealousy too. Just keep in mind that jealous doesn't always translate to "care." It's one of those romantic notions we have, I think, that isn't always true.

I chose my first husband over another guy because it was "obvious" to me that he cared more about me because he became jealous so easily. I was so impressed by the things he said to me - and how protective he was. He made swooping statements that made me feel like queen of the world. (Geesh, it's really become obvious to me in the last few days of my posts that I am a TOTAL sucker for grandiose talk! What need is that??? LOL) He made me promise that I would never leave him.... Puffed up if we were out and another guy looked at me... He must REALLY love me, right???

Yeah: it wasn't a week after the wedding that Mr. Jealous became more interested in other pursuits than in me. We had dated for 5 years before we'd married....and in all that time, I had felt put on a pedestal. After he finally had me "for keeps" he became wayward so fast my head must've spun 100 times... Jealousy, as it turns out, was a very self-centered thing; wasn't about loving me at all. It was about the elation he got from making me his - and I was a catch. Once I'd fallen totally in love with him and settled me world around him and became no longer a catch - it didn't drive his ego any longer. When I discovered he was cheating and moved out, guess what happened? He started to pursue again, not too long after. But, I was not interested in recovery with him. We had no kids and I realized how dysfunctional of a relationship we had. You would not believe some of the crazy things he did trying to get back at me and to get me back! Thank goodness I didn't fall for any of it!

There is a big difference in that kind of immature jealousy vs. protecting your relationship, however. My H is not really the jealous type either, but I would hope that now knowing how relationships work and how A's develop, he would be more cognizant about my activities if something came up. Having said that, I have always had rock solid boundaries with the opposite sex - since the day we married. Thankfully, I had great teachers in my brother and SIL. Plus, I have always been a buyer in relationships - I think I was born that way!

Another thought - I think we all take notice when our spouses seem interesting to other people of the opposite sex. It can be kind of flattering as long as it is not threatening. I'm talking about a glance from a stranger here - not going out to dinner with someone, of course. It validates the attractiveness of your spouse - and it can be not just in the area of PA, but in other ways as well. For instance, if H and I go to dinner with another couple and I witness them laughing at his jokes, etc... I remember just how charming he can be. It makes me admire him a little more. Because...if others find him charming, it validates his charmingness. lol. However, it would cross a line if the female of the pair starting paying a little too much attention! We would not go out with that couple again.

Last thought: I think it's important to have at least a few female friends you can get together with to help meet some lower level needs. Do you have that, UW? I love to get together for lunch with my friends and be able to have my need for conversation met, for instance. It takes a little bit of the burden off of Mr. Sunny since I like to talk and he doesn't! lol

I also get my admiration need met through my course work. When I do really well on an exam or paper, for instance, I love it when my professor makes glowing comments - just like a grade school kid getting a gold star. I get boosted self confidence and respect by earning the grade - which is even more important - but I love having that recognition of a job well done.

I think this is what sucks about being a SAHM: you don't get a lot of recognition (admiration) for it. Doing household chores and raising kids doesn't get you many "gold stars" by others. I have been a SAHM for most of the 21 years H and I have been married - and I can totally relate to your dislike of housework! I have often felt just as you do - that I wished I didn't dread it so much, esp. since I know how much it means to H to come home, have a nice clean house, and dinner on the table. I have struggled with it to various degrees for a long time. In fact, it was one area I had to address for cleaning up my side of the street in recovery.

Why not a compromise, on the housework, UW? I have someone come in and do a deep cleaning every once in awhile so it gets really clean to every inch - and then maintenance is not something that bothers me. The kids have chores to do to help - and H pitches in as well, in areas where he is enthusiastic about. I really like to cook when my kitchen is clean and organized, so it makes me smile to be able to have dinner prepared for H most nights. He loves to grill, so long as I have everything prepped - so that's nice too.

If you look at your guilt over house duties as an all or nothing approach, I think it's a lose-lose situation. There are many other ways to approach it. I know you have young kids. One thing we did when ours were little was to make a game out of cleaning up their toys. Rugrats was big at the time and it came on about 6pm. At 5:15ish every day we had "Rugrat Roundup." I would put on some music or we would sing kid songs - always starting with the "cleanup song" and the kids would put away all their stuff. The reward was getting to watch Rugrats at 6pm. I typically finished up dinner while they cleaned up. To this day - now 16, 18, and 20 - the kids laugh about Rugrat Roundup. Each one of them says it is definitely something the remember fondly and will do with their kids!

Well, I don't have a high T level but that is the way I feel. No B better ever lay her hands on my property again or she better have her running shoes on.

I do wish he had a little bit of this in him too.

I told you he had his levels chked once and they were 'in the normal range' right? He is getting them chked again but, since this has been an ongoing problem since the day we got married, I don't know that there has been any change since the last test.

Conversation is one of the 4 intimate EN, not a lower level need. It is essential that your husband meet that need for you.

Thanks as always SunnyD.

IDK I just like the jealousy. Pre M I was dating a guy who I went out to the clubs with a lot, along with his friends. Well I used to get hit on a lot at the clubs, and one of this bf's friends would always step in and handle it. One night a guy reached under my dress and tried to grope me and this friend got into it with him and we got kicked out the club! One of the OM's I was in contact with during my rebellion stage was this particular guy, who I had as a facebook friend. We never got to any level of sexual talk or anything, but we were flirtatious and in my current mental state at the time (try pure anger and vengeance) I was LOOKING to move it in that direction. I really didn't have a lot of other reasons to like this guy, other than that he used to defend me at the clubs. Now I know what a love bank filler that was for me!

Maybe that is just a romanticized ideal of what a man should do, IDK. I'm not usually prone to romanticized ideas, I don't think.

I do not like ANY other woman to pay attention to my man. For every ounce of lack of jealousy he has, I have double.

I do have a couple female friends, one that I talk to regularly on the phone. I do not get together with any of them very often, no time when my evenings and weekends are dedicated to UA and family time. It is true that since I am into more male dominated hobbies, I have always had more things to converse with men about. I don't shop, I don't care about clothes and the latest fashion in handbags. I have tried to get involved in women's groups in the past to make friends, but nobody wants to hear about my hobbies which they think are dirty and crazy (dirty as in dirt dirty, lol). I'm not saying there aren't women out there to bond with who have the same type of interests, but certainly not a lot. So, its an obstacle. And most women don't think the things I do are admirable, they think they are crazy in a "I would never do that" kindof way, lol. So not much admiration or affection coming from women! Or from a job, other than my volunteer job, but even that I have been majorly slacking on because of all of the things going on in our marriage and therefore have felt more guilt with what I haven't done than admiration and pride over what I have done.

You are right that being a SAHM makes a difference, once again. There are no positive work reviews, raises, pats on the back. There is little interaction with other adults, really. Kids are selfish, so don't think you are getting admiration and appreciation from them, for years to come! So need meeting does rely heavily on H, I guess.

I think what she meant is that it is not in my top five EN's. Lower level need specific to me.

But then again, I don't really need it met by other people either, because I don't have a high need for it, right?

But women don't need a high T level to feel this way. If we have just ten per cent of a man's level, mixed in a fun way in a special Progesterone cocktail, we have enough assertiveness and sex drive to rival double the amount of T.

I'm a pretty assertive 'don't mess with me' person who NEVER showed jealousy. I felt it, but felt like admitting it was a sign of weakness. Not very RH. It's not always clear why people do the things they do until honesty is being used.

Plus your H DID feel jealous. Yeah its poss a red flag for his T levels that he wasn't more assertive about this, but he has the feelings you want when he's being RH.

It doesn't matter if you don't rank it that highly, UW. Conversation is one of the 4 Intimate EN. The 4 Intimate EN need to be met by your spouse during UA in order to have romantic love. Getting any of those needs met anywhere else is a hinderence to recovery.

No matter how you rank it, any of the 4 intimate EN are essential. Read this great post by Mel:

http://forum.marriagebuilders.com/u...in=159068&Number=2325271#Post2325271