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Guess that was a learning curve for Dr H! Yep, he's made no secret of the fact that he's continually revising & expanding his program in response to his understanding becoming more enlightened. One of his primary rules, for instance, is "do not spend overnights apart". But military marriages and a few other areas demand such a lifestyle. One of his areas of current research is into how to reduce the divorce rate in military marriages when partners must spend overnights apart.
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Guess that was a learning curve for Dr H! Yep, he's made no secret of the fact that he's continually revising & expanding his program in response to his understanding becoming more enlightened. One of his primary rules, for instance, is "do not spend overnights apart". But military marriages and a few other areas demand such a lifestyle. One of his areas of current research is into how to reduce the divorce rate in military marriages when partners must spend overnights apart. This is something I appreciate greatly about Dr. H! Interesting on the military marriage front.
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I have some additional thoughts to your last post, UW. Now that I have a little more time I'd like to see if I can address the SAHM issue.
You mention in your post that you don't feel you are a good SAHM - that you regret agreeing to being one. Well, it should not be a life sentence! Dr. H speaks of renegotiating things when you change your mind about something. If you are truly unhappy in this role, it is time for you and Mr. UW to POJA some solutions. Remember... sacrificing is not an option.
You also mention not being the "mom who has everything together." BELIEVE ME....I was not either! When my kids were little I would compare myself to other SAHMs and wonder what the heck was wrong with me that I couldn't be as organized as they were. I would feel guilty when I would hear about their daily "schedules" and such. And I was never the perfect housekeeper either. I did have some minimum standards usually - hence the Rugrat Roundup - but went through several times when I was completely overwhelmed with household duties. BUT... I did enjoy being home with the kids.
Seriously - for the longest time I felt I was falling down on the job by not being more scheduled; by not taking them to Library Tuesdays and Moms Day Out Fridays...or whatever. I WAS a good and patient disciplinarian - but all 3 of mine made my job easy. They are all compliant kids - always have been. I think that goes somewhat back to personality type.
Has there been any fallout from my unorganized early motherhood? Well...I can look at them now and say perhaps if I had been more scheduled maybe they would have learned to be more organized themselves - and done better in school. (While they all have made good grades, none of them are top of the class.) I mean, I always made time for reading and preschool work before they entered school - and time for homework while they were in grade school - but we never were the "you gotta come home and spend an hour on homework before anything else" type.
My daughter excelled in extracurricular stuff - from tumbling and cheer to softball and soccer. My oldest son did pretty well himself. My youngest is more of a bookworm an introvert - like his dad. But - all 3 of them are happy, well-adjusted, and have good heads on their shoulders. At 16, 18, and 20 I have never had a problem with them disrespecting me or H, or disobeying, or any kind of questionable decision-making. None of them have ever given me cause to worry about partying or substance use. I can talk to any of the 3 of them about anything.
My point is - just because you are not living up to what you think a SAHM should be doesn't mean you aren't doing a good job! It doesn't take scheduled library visits (et al) to produce healthy kids. When I look back, I can see how much we actually got done in our own ways. When the kids got older we did get involved in little league and all that stuff...and of course, that was a big time commitment at times. My daughter says she had the happiest childhood of anyone she knows.
Stop guilt-tripping yourself on this SAHM business. Stop comparing yourself to the image you have and start asking yourself the important questions. Now - if you are truly miserable - and everyone knows it - then it's time to evaluate whether or not you should be staying at home! That's where the important questions begin - because if you are miserable, I'm sure the kids can read right through that and may act out because of it. Moreover, if you are letting your kids run all over you because of your guilt, it's natural that they might act out and become entitled - leading to your feeling of them being selfish. (I'm not saying you ARE letting them run over you - just IF, since you said your H said everyone's unhappy.)
There's nothing wrong with evaluating things if something doesn't seem to be working - especially when it comes to parenting. It's the most important job behind spouse that we have. However - make sure you aren't using society's scale to measure that.
As for the AO's - how did you and H address those? It's crucial he gets those under control. It's important that the two of you learn to work through days/nights like yesterday's.
I apologize if my posts are way too lengthy these days. I just feel like maybe sharing my experiences may help you here.
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Thanks SunnyD.
We have discussed me getting a job in the past, H has not been on board with it.
Today we discussed it again, he is still not on board with me going back to work full time or having some kind of career. He did encourage me to do something to pursue a passion of mine. My thing is I already do that, I am the president of a non profit org that I am passionate about. But because I don't get paid for it and it is not our bread and butter, it isn't taken seriously or treated as a 'job' so it comes dead last in our list of priorities in life. And may I add in this thread it has been strongly encouraged that I quit all together to focus entirely on my family and relationship, which I did not/do not agree with and agreed to disagree on. Unless I were to pursue a full time career type job that actually brought some money in, the rest of our household responsibilities would still fall on my plate because H's career, which pays the bills, would take priority. So, in that case it would just ADD to my plate and not help really.
So yes, I have thought about going back to work. Me having some kind of full time career is not POJA'd by H, in the slightest. He likes having me home to run the show.
The problem is that even though being a SAHM doesn't bring any personal satisfaction to ME, and isn't the best thing for ME, it has worked well for H and his career, and for our family. So are is my personal agenda more important than that?
We still have a lot of discussing and POJAing to do regarding this whole issue, obviously.
I do guilt trip myself exceptionally well though. Fo sho. It is hard to be good at things, intelligent, well regarded in your education and career, then quit to become a mediocre SAHM. Hard on the ego ya know?
I do think my kids are unhappy. I have spent their entire lives half a$$ed parenting because half my attention was on my dysfunctional marriage frankly. Specifically in the last 2-3 yrs, between the trickle truthing and DDays and confessions, rebelliousness and RA's, recovery work which is a rollercoaster ride, etc. I have NOT been even close to the mother I would like to be. How can you have this emotional turmoil in the single most important relationship of your life and still be giving 100% as a mother? It is one of my greatest regrets for being in Plan C for so long. All the more reason to either fix this or get the he11 out.
AO's. I never had them until the trickle truth phase and subsequent rebellion on my part, so much rage at that time I think the F word was a regular part of my vocab. Now I still struggle with the AO's frankly. H also never used to have them until he had an illness a few yrs ago that affected him psychologically, he had AO's and even pushed me down once. Since then he has been more prone to AO's also. I wouldn't say we have a LOT of them, but they do occur more often than I would like. I have read all of the links regarding AO's on this website and do think it is a major LB that we need to eliminate.
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Something has obviously got to give here. If you don't find a solution to this SAHM dilemma, you are going to become more and more resentful. That's NOT good for a marriage. So, while your H is not on board with you working full time, the two of you have to keep brainstorming on a solution that will make you both happy. And, it must be one that does not add to your plate, to boot.
Without knowing the reasons why he is so against you working in any capacity, I can't offer any suggestions, really. Perhaps this is all on the beginning of you thread, which I came to the party late. I have to assume that people advised you to not focus on the volunteer work did so not knowing how miserable you are with the SAHM distinction.
Is your personal agenda more important than you being at home being best for H??? Well - yes and no. You should NOT be sacrificing for "what's best for him," but at the same time - not commit IBs by doing what you want even if he's mad about it.
I see this and I think there are all kinds of options here: for instance, a part time job with a person that comes in and helps with household duties, for instance. H has already said he doesn't mind someone coming in and helping with those things. So long as you are home when he gets home and everything gets done, why is that off the table? The person you have come in will do the household stuff in a better manner - which would make H happy; you'd be happy getting out of the house... Is that not a win win?
Another thing that pops to mind: what if you took a course or two to further your education? (Along with hiring someone to come in to help with the kids/house.) That might meet your needs as well as giving H the clean house he wants.
There are all kinds of options in-between working and not working.
As for the kids, maybe it's time to have a big sit down with them - after you and H have POJA'd some things. Nothing wrong with saying, "We know things have not been as they should be. We are sorry for the mistakes we have made. We love you very much and there are going to be some changes to how we do things around here - and some of those are going to include us tightening up as well changes that are more fun in nature. You may not like all the changes, but we are going to stick to them for your personal benefit as well as the benefits for the whole family. These changes include X,Y,and Z: We will not allow this or that to happen any longer, as well as we will expect this or that...."
If you do so, you MUST mean business! You've got to be prepared for them to test you on every point. You've gotta decide consequences for breaking the rules. They may or may not be happy about the changes at first, but once they see how the household is running much more smoothly, they will appreciate the boundaries you've set. It is NEVER too late to start righting the ship when it comes to parenthood. We all make mistakes. We all wish we'd done things differently in some area or another. Don't let past mistakes keep you from being the kind of mother you want to be NOW.
You don't have to be a 100% SAHM to be a good wife and mother! But, you do have to POJA solutions.
It is, perhaps, time for you and H to start asking the bigger questions here; the questions of "why." Only through communicating on a deeper level of your hearts' desires and how you want life to be will you come to true understanding.
I know you said you aren't the type to want to discuss feelings and such - and my bet is, neither is your H. BUT... if you don't start talking about some of this on a deeper level you aren't going to become closer and come to POJA decisions.
And yes - ELIMINATE the AO's - on both your parts. Not only are they unproductive, they make things worse. If you have AOs in front of your kids, it hurts them as well.
Last edited by SunnyDinTX; 08/03/12 11:44 AM.
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. But because I don't get paid for it and it is not our bread and butter, it isn't taken seriously or treated as a 'job' so it comes dead last in our list of priorities in life. Why not just agree to POJA that it IS a priority? If he wants you at home, but doing something you're passionate about.... And you want to be home but only if it is not the total definition of you.... Surely the POJA solution would be to recognise the key role this NFP job plays in your being a happy SAHM. It's your happiness lynchpin. But maybe I am misunderstanding... when you say it 'is last of list of priorities' what do you mean? I also don't understand why he is opposed to your being paid for any work? Why is your doing voluntary work better? Do you mean because it isnt a paycheck job, it is constantly in danger of being dropped? Or do you mean it isnt a priority time-wise? If the time for this role is being pushed out by your agreeing to do hours and hours of unenthusiastic cleaning (particularly when hiring help IS an option) Why dont you as Dr H says - GET ORGANISED. Do the DS survery (both of you) just as an exersize in seeing JUST HOW MUCH stuff needs doing for the DS of a home, and just how much of it you can enthusiastically sign up to. I know your H hasnt any time to do DS, but any jobs HE marks he is enthusiastic about, rather than you, will show him how very differently you feel about certain tasks. I would then draw up a lists of tasks you want to achieve as a SAHM - time with kids, time on projects, crafts, going to the library and one-on-one time with children etc... (AS part of your SAHM working day and completley separately from the time you all spend together as a family of course) Then you need to squeeze all this stuff into a manageable schedule. And your 'happiness lynchpin' of the NFP job should come FIRST. After that you should reshape your role (A key benefit of being a self employed SAHM is the abilty to design your own job role) into something YOU LIKE. Focus on the stuff you are good at and enthusiastic about and hire help for the rest. You spend hours cleaning because it's not your thing, and that simply is not efficient. The DS that H wants, that you are not enthusiastic about doing, is also highly likely to end up on the 'hire help' list. There may also be some DS tasks you can do together as UA time. I would like to propose to you a solution to your Domestic Support conflict based on the Policy of Joint Agreement. As it does with all marital conflicts, the Policy will not only resolve it, it will help you increase your love for each other.
This solution will require you to do something that you may rarely do: get organized. It means you must think through your problem carefully and systematically. You will need to write down your objectives and create solutions that take each other's feelings into account. While you may find all of this awkward and terribly "not you," there is no other way. Besides, when you're done, you may find it to be more comfortable than you anticipated.
Step 1: Identify your household responsibilities.
First, make a list of all of your household responsibilities including child care. The list should (1) name each responsibility, (2) briefly describe what must be done, and when, to accomplish it, (3) name the spouse that wants it accomplished and (4) how important is it to that spouse (use a scale from 1-5, with 1 least important and 5 most important).
Both spouses should work on this list, and it will take several days to cover the bases. You will add items each day as you find yourself accomplishing various tasks or wanting them accomplished.
When you have finished your list, both of you should be satisfied that it includes all of the housekeeping and child care responsibilities that you share. You may have as many as 100 items listed. Just this part of the exercise alone will help you understand what you're up against with regard to the work that you feel must be done.
Step 2: Assume responsibility for items that you would enjoy doing or prefer doing yourself.
Make a second copy of your final list, so that both you and your spouse can have your own copy. Then, independently of each other, put your own name in front of each item that you would like to do yourself. These are tasks that you would enjoy doing, don't mind doing, or want to do yourself so they can be done a certain way. When you compare your two lists, if both you and your spouse have named the same items, you can either take turns doing them, or arbitrarily divide them between the two of you.Now you have three lists. (1) the husband's list of responsibilities, (2) the wife's list of responsibilities and (3) the list of household responsibilities that are not yet assigned.
Step 3: Assign the remaining responsibilities to the one wanting each done the most.
Assuming that all tasks you would not mind doing have been eliminated, we are left with those that would be unpleasant for either of you to perform. These are items that neither of you want to do, but at least one of you thinks should be done.
These unpleasant responsibilities should be assigned to the person who wants them done. If both of you want something done, the one giving it the highest value should take responsibility for doing it.
If you think that this is unfair, consider for a moment why you want the other person to do these tasks for you. Even though you are the one who wants them done, you want the other person to relieve you of the pain you suffer when you do them. It other words, you want to gain at your spouse's expense.
You may argue that what you want is really not for you, but for the children. In that argument, you imply that your spouse is so uncaring and insensitive that he or she doesn't even know, or doesn't care, what's best for the children. If that's your argument, you are making a disrespectful judgment.
The one wanting something done the most will lose the fewest love units doing it themselves. After all, they are doing it for themselves. It's much more painful to do something unpleasant when you don't even value what you're doing.
But there are many ways to get things done, and you may not have considered the best possibilities. You and your spouse should discuss how burdensome responsibilities can be accomplished in ways that are not so burdensome. Maybe one of you would not mind doing one part of dinner preparation, and the other would not mind doing another part. Or maybe you would agree that going out to dinner is the ultimate solution to the problem.
Those items left on your list of responsibilities that are unpleasant to perform should be regularly discussed. Brainstorm all kinds of alternatives that might get the job done without either of you suffering.
There are certain household tasks that are so unpleasant for both spouses that hiring someone to do it is a reasonable alternative, especially when both spouses work full-time. Hiring a housekeeper once a week to do only the most unpleasant cleaning chores is money well spent. The same thing can be true of maintaining the yard. Having someone mow and trim the lawn can turn a burdensome Saturday into an opportunity to enjoy the day with the family.
On a related subject, be sure that you do not assign your children tasks that both you and your spouse find too unpleasant to shoulder. It doesn't build character to give your kids jobs that you hate to do, it builds resentment. If you want your children to help around the house, have them choose tasks from your list of household responsibilities that they would enjoy doing. Make lists for them, as well as for you and your spouse. There will be plenty to keep them busy.
To summarize my solution to the division of household responsibilities, the Policy of Joint Agreement should be your guide. Assume household responsibilities that you enthusiastically accept. And then, when you help each other with those unpleasant tasks that are left, only help if you can do it enthusiastically.
By following this policy, you may decide to change your attitude about some of the responsibilities on your list. When you know that the only way to do something is to do it yourself, you may decide that it doesn't need to be done, after all. In fact, you may find that what kept you convinced of it's importance, was the notion that your spouse was supposed to do it. [/quote] If you do this exercise, it will help you design your SAHM role, and daily schedule, which should hopefully include POJA'd time for your NFP work. Your H should actively participate in this so he can help make decisions which take into account his needs and POV. Dont worry about assigning tasks to him, the breadwinner, as part of the exercise. Just do it as a theoretical exercise in who wants what done. When its done, discuss how those tasks, only he wants done should best be taken care of. I think it will help you both distinguish between what needs are and what wants are.
Last edited by indiegirl; 08/03/12 03:41 PM.
What would you do if you were not afraid?
"Fear is the little death. Fear is the mind-killer" Frank Herbert.
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THERE IS NO OTHER WAY!!!!!!!
What would you do if you were not afraid?
"Fear is the little death. Fear is the mind-killer" Frank Herbert.
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A hunch...............
DH doesnt like the idea of you working because he enjoys meeting your FS need?
(I have a reason for asking this)
What would you do if you were not afraid?
"Fear is the little death. Fear is the mind-killer" Frank Herbert.
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I've been married one year with dh five years. Until two months ago I felt my marriage was good. I found out that my Dh had been having an emotional affair with a woman at work. He hid her number in his phone under a guys name. I found out and immediately confronted him. I found out for months he had been calling this woman every free moment he had. I was devastated and felt betrayed and unappreciated as two months earlier I had given birth to our second child. He denies sexual contact says hes sorry and this will never happen again. After a couple weeks after me finding out my Dh quit his job.he denies the "friendship" was anything but I have phone records that prove otherwise. I'm hurt and confused about what too do. Now I'm very resentful against my Dh husband as things have been very difficult financially since he quit his job. How ironic he did the now me and my children pay the price. I feel I will be miserable if I stay in this marriage.
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Nic...please start your own thread in Surviving and Affair. You'll get many more responses there - and all the help you need!
Sorry you have to be here, but you're in a great place to get the right kind of help!
For starters, read all you can on this site - and get the book Surviving an Affair as fast as humanly possible!
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And UW - Indie is right - I guess I'd assumed you'd already done the inventory stuff. A definite must!
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[
Yep, he's made no secret of the fact that he's continually revising & expanding his program in response to his understanding becoming more enlightened. One of his primary rules, for instance, is "do not spend overnights apart". But military marriages and a few other areas demand such a lifestyle. One of his areas of current research is into how to reduce the divorce rate in military marriages when partners must spend overnights apart. His solution, though, is to work with the military to help couples AVOID spending nights apart. He doesn't believe it is possible to reduce the divorce rate in these marriages without changing that aspect. He did research this for quite some time and has never found a way to have a happy marriage when couples are apart. While he has revised and expanded certain aspects, he has NEVER revised his advice to never spend the night apart. That is an important "rule" in his program.
"It is not the critic who counts; not the man who points out how the strong man stumbles, or where the doer of deeds could have done them better. The credit belongs to the man who is actually in the arena.." Theodore Roosevelt Exposure 101
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Saw this and wanted to post it for you, UW. Thankfully AOs have been rare in my marriage, but this post shows just how harmful they can be to recovery. From my class on Interpersonal Communications I learned that they can really become a bad habit - out of frustration. They really take a conscious effort to stop if you've gotten into the habit. It's all about finding ways to communicate better. Once you guys have cleared out the AO's, you can then more easily discuss things in a manner that is respectful and leads to good POJAs.
Originally Posted By: Dr. Harley
Early on, I came to recognize that angry outbursts are probably the most damaging thing a spouse can do in marriage. I say this in spite of my recognition that infidelity is also a very damaging behavior. But I'm often more optimistic about the recovery of a marriage that has suffered from infidelity than than recovery of a marriage that suffers from angry outbursts. The primary reason that angry outbursts just about eliminate the hope of marital happiness is that even if they are very infrequent, they prevent a couple from solving their problems because the threat always hangs over every conversation. The first guideline for marital negotiation is to make the discussion pleasant and safe, and an angry spouse fails that very first condition, making the rest of it impossible to implement. Angry spouses simply create an environment that makes it impossible to make marital adjustments. That's why I advise couples with multiple problems that include anger to overcome the anger first, and then focus on the rest of the problems later.
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Next week we are going on a 9 day family vacation. So to head off that lengthy lack of UA time, I arranged to have kids gone THIS weekend so we could spend every waking minute together.
Our weekend started last night with a 3 hour dinner. Part of the conversation was regarding the following.
When I first started this thread, I was careful to painstakingly list not only the infidelities that H had had, portraying me as a BS, but also the many over the line relationships I had had. I knew H would read this and did not want to come across as deceptive and unfair. But, secretly I still harbored a feeling that since he had actually had SEX with someone, and I hadn't, his sins were worse, and I was kindof in the clear. Not in the clear, I knew I had also been unfaithful, but what could he say when he had done WORSE? I weighed his sins against mine and I won, I came out the better person. Not to mention that, like many WW I felt like his lack of care, neglect, own unfaithfulness had PUSHED my attitude to such that I allowed these events to happen...so it was kindof his fault right?
One of the first things you all did was to challange me on my many male friendships. I fought tooth and nail. I specifically steamed about HHH and his mean and evil ways of making me feel bad. And he DID make me feel bad. But why? I also asked myself why, why did some stranger make me feel bad.
Because deep down I am a smart girl who loves her husband immensely, and I knew that having these friendships was NOT OK. I still remember the day of tears that I realized what I really GOT out of these relationships, and the selfish reasons I continued them, despite the damage it had done to my H and my M. I reluctantly, very reluctantly, went NC with ALL men short from family and a handful of 'work' related people, and started living in a way that was completely transparent to H.
Since then I have thought long and hard about what MY role in this marriage has been. Self reflection has been a large part of this process, for me. I have finally stopped weighing my crimes against those of my H. Which means that I have stopped feeling in some manner justified to have done what I did.
I know that I had relationships for YEARS with other men. The reason wasn't because we shared hobbies, or because they understood me better than women, etc. It was because it felt GREAT to have that addictive hit of admiration, affection, and even desire from them. It sucked to have an H who didn't fill those needs, and I compensated in the worst way, by finding someone who did.
I know now that I chipped away at how he felt as a man, how he felt as my H, with this behavior. And I chipped away at the strength of our own marriage. In the back of my mind I thought (hoped) maybe it would make him jealous, and he would start to fight for me, but didn't realize it was having the opposite affect.
As I told H last night, I now carry a great deal of shame/guilt/ remorse for the way that I have behaved, the woman and wife that I have been. I apologized to him, in a way that I don't think I ever have.
I don't know. I guess I thought this would be a step in the right direction, but for some reason it made him completely withdraw from me for the rest of the night. I HATE it when he withdraws from me.
In any case, that is how our night ended but I meant every word I said to him. I have read on The Flower Girls thread on the SAA board and wish I could implant the self reflection I had into her brain for her, but I can't. Yes I had a husband who treated me poorly for years too. Mine didn't even come on MB to try and fix things, wish he had! But that doesn't excuse who WE have become as women and as wives, we did that all on our own.
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Here's another thing that plagues me.
I know on these forums an A is and A is an A. All A's are created equal, so to speak. But for ME, sex is a key element of betrayal. Maybe this is because I regard SF needs so highly, IDK. In any case, I think recovery from any of H's indescretions would have been completely different, if there had never been sex with someone.
Here is how I feel about sex in a marriage. I feel like that physical fidelity is a precious gem, in the middle of the museum of marriage. It is the cornerstone of the museum. Yes you have many other precious things in the museum, but this is the greatest attraction, without it the museum would go out of business!
I feel like I have always guarded that gem. For many years, I flirted, I had friendships, but when things started turning to a sexual nature I went NC. Even after discovering some of the things H had done and having an RA, I still could not bring myself to go to that level, before calling it off. I may have had a lack of boundaries, but I DID have a boundary. Sex was a boundary.
I'm not saying all the other stuff wasn't very hurtful to H, I know it was very damaging. But because sex is so important to ME, I guarded and protected that. The physical act. Why is it so cornerstone to marriage in my own brain?
Now I know that the gem was actually stolen, years ago, and I just didn't know it. It has been gone for years. Our museum of marriage is in existance with a big empty hole in the middle, where that precious gem once sat.
OK this analogy sounds ridiculous I am just trying to explain how I feel about the value of sexual fidelity in a marriage.
So now, it is gone. A line that has been crossed that can't be undone. Gem is gone, space is empty. We have learned about boundaries, and have implemented them. Having knowledge of boundaries and having set up a marriage with rock solid boundaries is GREAT, and a great form of protection we have never had. But in some ways I feel LESS loyal than I ever have before.
How can this be after these last two posts? I guess I can only explain it as, even before I had any knowledge of boundaries, I had this internal boundary regarding sex/physical fidelity. I protected that. The gem was there in the back of my mind and I was a guard to it. Even though I didn't know about boundaries in my BRAIN, internally, emotionally I had boundaries. Now I know about boundaries in my brain, and have implemented those, but the boundaries I had internally are gone. Gem is gone, nothing left to guard.
Yes I have shared this a handful of times with H. I keep thinking with recovery this feeling will return, but it doesn't. I feel like it is one of those things that due to his ONS is gone, and that cannot be replaced.
But, given the fact that I have shame for how I have behaved by having male friendships, my own RA, etc. and knowing that internally I feel LESS loyalty in some respects than I once did, all leaves me feeling totally paranoid that I will do something to fall off the wagon. I seriously have anxiety over this, I have stress dreams almost every night about cheating on H! So far they haven't been sexual dreams, they have just been dreams about being deceptive to him, making arrangements to meet someone and lying to him, talking to someone on the phone and deleting the call, etc.
I look back at how vulnerable I have been in the past. H treating me terribly, no needs met. No knowledge of true boundaries. A body full of resentment and anger toward him. And yet I almost feel more vulnerable NOW than I did then, because I always in the back of my mind was protecting that non existent gem.
IDK what I am asking here, just telling you all about my psychosis in regards to loyalty/internal boundaries, and the subsequent paranoia I have about it all, I guess.
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Also, I have done some MAJOR self reflection along the lines of my selfish demands regarding sex.
In retrospect to my life, I realize how aggressive and demanding I have been regarding it. I even think to dates I've had that went incredibly well, and at the end fizzled out, and now wonder if I am just too aggressive for many men! Don't get the impression that I was promiscuous here, I still to some extent guarded the ACT even back then and have always been paranoid about STD's, but I guess I just mean physically aggressive, not 'coy' in any manner. I def expected a good night kiss or more! Think the jerky guy who has no manners and pressures girls into sex, ya that's me, I guess.
So last night we went to dinner. Twice in the first hour I said something, once along the lines of 'if I get you drunk do you think I can take advantage of you?' and something else, can't remember what it was. I was kindof just being funny and joking (IRL I joke around A LOT) but he got mad and told me that I was being demanding and pressuring him. I immediately stopped touching him as I was rubbing his leg at the time, he said no don't stop touching me just stop demanding sex. I said well I was kindof just joking. And he said you really are NEVER joking are you? Guess not, guess at the end of the day I am joking but I really DO want to, of course. He said it all makes him feel like I expect the date to end that way. Um, ya...
Why can't I be more of a girl. Why can't I enjoy pedicures and shopping and not be the creepy groper boy sexually.
Anyway it made me feel rejected. Add to that the withdrawal over my apology and although it was a great dinner, didn't end up that great.
IDK WHAT to do about this sex thing. I have been self reflecting, realizing my faults, and working VERY hard to not behave so aggressively. In the last 2 weeks we've probably had sex twice. I worked really hard to not insinuate, expect, demand, etc. (and was actually quite productive in terms of DS as I tried to channel my pent up energy elsewhere) and H even commented how bizarre it was to not have me seem even interested in sex (not that he was trying anything, just that I wasn't)...well we went a good week before he finally instigated anything. So yes it WORKED, my coyness DID end up with him getting pent up and instigating something and actually being the one to be the aggressor, but I had to wait a week for it and will probably have to wait another week. Kinda what I knew would happen. IMO it is NOT the answer to our problems, because I am getting my SF need met less than I was when I was making selfish demands. AND may I say that sometimes when I feel like I am just being flirty and fun he gets mad and says 'demand' and IDK I just feel like I can't even act or talk in any way shape or form that has to do with sex anymore. It sucks.
Feel like I will never figure this SF thing out. And never get my need met.
No H has not done any of the things we discussed a month ago in regards to him trying to increase his drive, unfortunately. I can only do my part, as always. I'm in a frustrating place though, where I feel I have no control. I can't flirt with him, instigate anything, make a move, think about, act, or talk about sex, I am pretty much acting as if I don't even like it and just have to wait around for him to want to do it, or be accused of making 'demands' because I want to have sex. Meanwhile, the need is not met, even LESS met than before. Frustrating.
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UW,
It's good that you got out all your feelings and reflections here. It's a lot to take in, in terms of responding - I'm not sure where to start, lol. But... often times we can't start really working through our issues until we are willing to admit they are there.
I understand your feelings about the physical act of sex being a gem. While the current philosophy is that women feel more betrayed by the emotional side of an affair and them men by a physical affair, I did not find that to be the case, personally. My H had an EA years ago via the internet. I know it was never physical because it was someone from another state. (I also read emails that supported the fact that they'd never got together in person.) When I first found out about the A 2 years ago, I assumed that it was "just" an EA. Of course I was upset, but I figured, we could work through that. When I found out it had been a PA as well, I was beyond devastated; I did not think he was capable of betraying me that way. To this day I still mourn the loss of something special - that is only supposed to be shared between a husband and wife. Therefore, I'm not so sure I'm a good person to comment on your "comparison of sins."
I will say this: no matter whether EA or PA, the loss of love units are there; the formula for recovery is essentially the same. That, to me, is where the "equal" part comes in.
It is natural, as humans, to want to deflect blame; to look to our partners and point the finger - because - as a "good person" we wouldn't have stooped to such levels had we not been "pushed" to.
It's good that you realize you must own your own stuff, regardless of what your H did or didn't do.
Here's the thing: you expected your H to react in a certain manner, upon your sharing all this with him. He didn't. Because you felt good getting this all of your chest, you expected something in return - rather than withdrawal. Be careful: remember that your H has a right to his own feelings and his own reactions. Of course, if he is practicing good MB principles, he should do his best to not LB in his reactions to you. Withdrawing from you in that moment can possibly be seen as not being open & honest with you about his feelings. I'm sure he probably sees withdrawal as being better than an AO or the like, but it is not good communication.
Sidenote: I keep wondering what your H's efforts are, with MB... Is he in this with you 100% or are you doing it and him not? It doesn't absolve you of your responsibilities to clean up your side of the street - but it makes a HUGE difference in recovery.
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Write Joyce, UW.
It might be an interesting response!
"An expert is a person who has made all the mistakes that can be made in a very narrow field." - Niels Bohr
"Smart people believe weird things because they are skilled at defending beliefs they arrived at for non-smart reasons." - Michael Shermer
"Fair speech may hide a foul heart." - Samwise Gamgee LOTR
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Which one of my psychosis should I start with HHH? Lumping all my issues into one might be a tad overwhelming for her...
Sometimes I think I just think too much.
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