Indie. I am not going to talk in specifics but I will tell you that I cannot imagine what could possibly come out of his mouth to answer this question, and I absolutely refuse to think he is just not having 'fun.' If that is the case, I totally give up.

Yes, sometimes because there has been no SF. I do get crabby when I am not getting that need met. And yes, more general because of years of neglect and mistreatment and infidelities.

I express it by withdrawal, more than anything.

SF issues have been going on since the first day of our marriage, so it has nothing to do with the resentment. That's just an added problem, IMO.

Ok. Let me know if you change your mind.

I feel like I'm beating this SF thing to death.

I am being told by him that my expectation is too high, I just have an unnaturally high need and for that reason I am just never going to get it met.

Yet I am being told by you it is possible I am just doing things wrong, making demands, not meeting his PA need, or not enough fun in bed.

And at the end I am starting to think there is something wrong with me, and am starting to lose confidence in everything I do. I have NEVER had a lack of confidence when it comes to sexual stuff. Now all of a sudden I feel like a nympho who is begging for sex and am rethinking every single move I make.

After this lengthy discussion on it I don't even WANT to have sex. It seems like something that used to be an amazing experience for me has turned into some 'issue' I have and I am developing guilt for that. And developing guilt for feeling like I am being demanding to ask my H to have sex with me, or instigate, or initiate in any way. I am second guessing every sexual thing I say to him, every time I flirt with him, every time I touch him. I am starting to become insecure about my PA, sexual performance, sexual interactions.

Couple that with the difficulties I have had since DDay and having to think about sxxt that some other whore did with my property. There are particular things I can't even do anymore because they make me insecure after his detailed description of what it was like with her. I have NEVER been insecure like this before.

Soon I will be the one with the sexual aversion and at this point I welcome it.

I'm sorry Indie I know you are trying to help me and I really, really appreciate it. I am sorry for being defensive and resentful, this is just a really touchy topic for me, for a variety of reasons, obviously.

I just miss feeling like I am desired, ya know? Its been a number of years (15 to be exact) since I have felt that way, other than in my OWN wayward behaviors and that is not what I want. I want MY HUSBAND to desire me, that is all I've ever wanted. And, I think I am a pretty damn desirable woman. That is a bad feeling in and of itself, then add to that the fact that he desired OW all these years, just makes it ten times worse.

Feeling bad right now. Thought I was doing so well too.

It is natural for you to feel touchy and resentful. That's why I responded to your request to take a break.



I think you're doing pretty great. The fact you care so much is not a BAD thing.just take a break and GIVE yourself a break.

Am I right in thinking this all stems from you caring so much? (A good thing?)

From wanting to do right by your M and hubby?)

These are good instincts. Allow yourself to feel good about your level of caring, instead of panicked.

Do you really think someone who cares as much as you, who is learning as much as you, is not going to do well?

Piffle.

Rome wasn't built in a day and it is EXHAUSTING watching you try.

Like I said, when you are ready to pick up the topic again, let me know.

For now, go do something nice for yourself.

I've been reading through your last few days of posts. Tough situation to be in, unwritten. We women often love to be pursued and desired.

I didn't look back through your entire thread, so I have a couple of questions.I apologize if you have answered them already.

Is your H willing to see a doctor to rectify any hormonal imbalance?

Is it possible your H views porn or masturbates?

Is it possible your H still has some contrast effect going on? You say he was attracted to the OW for years.

How does your H feel about himself?

I know that last question sounds ridiculously touchy-feely, but in our situation, my H was overweight for many years. Not only did it make me feel less attracted to him (PA is very high on my EN list,) but it seemed to have some effect on his hormones and sex drive. Not being in the medical field, I can only conjecture here, but now that my H has lost weight and looks great, he says he also feels really great.

He feels great on an emotional level, because he believes he looks good and feels pretty good about that.

He also feels great on a physical level and has so much more energy.

He used to appear to have a very low sex drive. I could never understand why he hardly ever wanted sex. I was slender, reasonably decent-looking, dressed okay and was responsive to him. He never had any complaints. He had obligatory sex with me on Saturdays. Sigh. That was so unfulfilling. I rarely felt truly desired.

Turns out he had a habit, spanning years, of pleasuring himself several times a WEEK. I never knew it; I only knew that he developed problems with premature ejaculation and the whole thing became desperately frustrating to me.

Also, my H was a flirt. We've suffered through couple of his infidelities even before this most recent adultery. So then I was dealing the contrast effect.

He ended up in a very high-stress job, which affected his emotional health. It was all he could do at times, just to keep going, let alone have any sort of sex drive. The stress was just too all-encompassing.

Fast forward a few years to the present: D-Day was a year and a half ago and we did the HB thing for months.We're well into recovery.

His low-stress job of the past couple of years has done wonders for his own psyche, and he feels great about his work life.

Immediately after D-Day, my H had a great deal of self-loathing, because he was so grieved at the kind of life he had led and all of his regrets at doing things the wrong way for so long. He felt despair that those wrongs could ever be righted.

A year and a half later, he has consistently worked to be a better person, and he feels really great about that. He hates what he was before, but he can respect who he has become.

His weight loss has brought him great satisfaction and greater energy.

His drive is much higher than ever before, and we both wonder if it's a result of the above outside sources.

We also conjecture that one reason he rarely wanted sex with me is because he had such independent behavior that to try and meet my needs in order to have his needs met was impossible for him. He just didn't want to bother.

We found the Online Seminar to be invaluable not only for recovery, but also for our marriage in general.

Just my thoughts on your situation.

This was done a couple yrs ago, he is within a normal range of hormones.


He does not view porn on any regular basis (I know he HAS viewed porn but do not think it a common occurrence, in other words), but yes he does masturbate. I never had a problem with that but after DDay asked him to stop. I felt like it took away from me and my need for SF, if he got a release through that then he would have less of a need for SF with me. I felt like him choosing to masturbate instead of having sex with me was completely insulting. And finally, after DDay, I felt like he probably wasn't thinking about ME when he did this and that all of a sudden mattered to me A LOT.

Also, although we often have lengthy SF sessions and he always makes sure I am pleased, the act itself isn't exactly long running. I have read that masturbation can affect that, teach your body to 'get er done' more or less, so there was that. At the time in the heat of my betrayal and resentment, I also wanted to test him to see if he could or would choose to have some control over his desires, if I asked him to. Regardless of the reasons I asked him to stop.

Several months went by where he told me he never did it. Finally one day I pressed him on the issue, NEVER, you have NEVER done it since that conversation, only to have him admit that indeed, he had and was masturbating and never really stopped. I was PI$$ED! More because he was STILL LYING to me about stuff, do the lies never end??? If he lies about something so stupid why would he not STILL lie to me about a situation with another woman. I had a bit of an AO if I remember, I didn't reiterate 'don't do it' but I did express my DEEP frustration at the fact that he had, and that he had lied about it. And I reiterated all the reasons it was working against us and our sexual satisfaction. Several months later I ask him again, at least this time he told me straight off, oh yes I still do it.

Now I don't ask because I assume he still is. He clearly has no concern at its affect on our sexual life or how it affects his ability to meet my SF need, and he clearly has no intention of changing his behavior to make me happy or for any other reason. He clearly does not even have concern for how frustrating this all is for me.

So I assume he still does this, although I don't know how regularly. Short from being at work there is NEVER a time where he would need to. I am not opposed to stepping in the shower, the bathroom, the laundry room, quickies, being woken from a dead sleep, etc.


Yes, very possible. He is a 'grass is greener' kindof guy in all aspects of life, and I am sure that does and will always apply to me as well.


H used to be very confident, OVERLY confident, as in I'm God's greatest gift kind of confidence. Not physically but he is very intelligent and successful, he always felt like he was better than people for that reason. I think that confidence has been shot, which to some extent is a good thing. He has come to the understanding that what kind of MAN you are is far more important than what kind of money you make.

But I do not think he has ever been overly confident in his body. PA does not even make the top 5 for me. I have always found him sexy. He is a tall man and has been anywhere from 10-40lbs overweight since we have been married, but he wears it well and like I said, I have always loved the way he looks, and have been very admiring of it. I have never said anything to him negatively about his PA, never. I do not think he has a major hangup about his looks, but do think he wouldn't mind to be in better shape.


I would 100% agree that being fit affects your sex drive. I would love to see him work out for that one reason only. He has had a lot of health issues over the years so I would never expect that from him, given his physical limitations, what he can tolerate based on those is for him to decide.


We do have SF quite a bit, I would say 3-5 times/week. His desire level is not there though, he is not as into it as me, not passionate about it. He would be happy with far less I imagine. (I would like to get to the once a day mark frankly, but if the intensity of the situations rose 3-5 would probably be enough).


H has a corporate executive job. I imagine it is high stress, although he seems to handle the stress well. He has had many jobs over the course of our marriage though, some high and some lower stress and none of that has seemed to play a role in this. You gotta remember this has gone on for years, and lots of things have changed over those yrs, from my PA to having kids, moving, job changes, location changes...we have been in lots of different environments and this SF situation has always been the same.


I am sure there is much to be said for this. Thank you for adding an added element, but this time that it is about HIM feeling bad about himself, rather than something I am doing wrong! Because I really needed that!


Thanks for your thoughts!

i'm not trying to t/j, just have some general discussion about this issue, as sf is a high need for me as well.


this is really hard for me to type, but i'm going to take a deep breath and give it a go.

when my H and i got together, we had sex just about every day. of course, he was only 35. he told me he was thrilled that we were so sexually compatible. that was his opinion - mine was that the frequency was ok, but boy, he had a lot to learn about variety!

as soon as he "had" me (ring on finger), it dropped to once a week, and has stayed there since, with *sometimes* 2-3 times a week (i initiate), except during the hysterical bonding period.

oh, yes, i've done all the wacky things women's mags suggest: meet at door naked, raunchy lingere, surprise oral, etc. he's come a long way with variety, but is still not where i would prefer to be.

i don't mind having a standard "date" for sf. we often plan for it, and UA time has helped a lot with the simultaneous need meeting. also, it takes away my initiation of sf, which is a relief for me.

however. yes, that "desirable" thing is a real issue. i still clearly remember being in my 20s where just a smile would bring men running. but not now in my mid 40s, heading fast to 50...i am invisible.

however, having been cursed with huge boobs since my teen years, i have never been confident about my looks. i always say, you can tell the difference between real big ones and fake big ones with clothes on. the girls with real huge boobs are the ones that slouch. attracting that kind of attention at a young age kinda does a number on ya. and let's face it - big boobs are gauche.

do i feel desirable? sometimes. when i get all dolled up for something fancy. on a regular day, i feel i am attractive, but nothing special. i have no "good" features that stand out. without makeup i am very plain. w/makeup and hair, i am attractive, but nothing more.

my H, when we have sf, always makes sure that it is pleasing to me. however, i know that is a lot of work, and so i often try to give him a little something during the week that pleases him (which pleases me) and that is *not* a lot of work. i want him to enjoy sf so he wants to have it - does that make sense?

now that he's in his mid 50s, i worry about the drop off. we only have sf once a week mostly - i don't know if i'll be able to bear it if it's less! and i wonder, unwritten, how old your H is? as men age, their need for sf drops off, while ours goes up! how unfair is that??? having said that, he has no problem in the plumbing department. we've never experienced impotence.

and yes, i notice a difference in my demeanor when i don't get it. the longer it goes, the crankier i get (not to him, in general). in the past, if i didn't initiate, it could be 3 weeks before any sf. this made me feel like sh1t. it didn't seem to bother him at all. in fact, he told *me* to masturbate! which i didn't do, because i wanted my pleasure to take place with him.

does he masturbate? i know that he has in the past, which i have resented, because he was IBing (this was before MB), and taking his pleasure w/out me. now? i don't know. i guess i will ask.

to get sf 3-5 times a week would put me in heaven. and this may be a very controversial question, but i wonder, unwritten, if you are getting it 3-5x/wk and still need to, how did you put it, get off, if you should maybe have some toys for yourself? (boy, am i ready for a 2x4 for that! but i said at the start i was going to be honest.)

i would really like some of the over 50 males on the board to chime in here. what is sf like from your perspectives? not the need meeting, but the "want to have it" - how has that declined since your late 20s-early 30s? how do you feel about sf with your spouses, since you both have aged? do you feel the media biases you against finding your W physically attractive due to the aging process (i'm not talking the "let herself go and gained 100lbs, i'm talking natural aging - wrinkles, sag, vaginal dryness [sorry for the tmi]), and if so, how do you deal with that? and just as importantly, how do your Ws deal with that??

if you'd like to read my mini-rant on aging, pop over to my thread!

I just asked my H for his perspective to your last paragraph or two. He doesn't post to any forum, so he said I could just type what he says...so here goes:

"I'm almost 53 and I was foolish and not following MB principles; sex was pretty much limited to Saturday mornings and that was mostly due to obligation or expectation than anything else.

"Now, thanks to MB, the thought of once a week is unfathomable. While we have the occasional week like this week where a business trip interfered with our love life, we normally make love three to five times a week. I find myself wondering when we're going to enjoy our next makeout session even before we finish the one we're in the middle of.

"I have no clue what you're talking about with the vaginal dryness, because my wife, well...tmi. Let's just say that things are very different (better) now.

"In the past, sex was work. We had to meet some sort of "romance" quota in the bedroom for it to be satisfying. Now I make a point to be affectionate throughout the course of the day. Magically the battle over creating a right mood has disappeared and romance in the bedroom just happens automatically.

"In the past, because of the lack of romance it was sometimes hard to get my wife to stop whatever task she was in the middle of and go make love. Now, I just have to make a suggestion and we're both ...tmi.

"Since sex was work before, I did frequently masturbate but now, it's not an issue.

"I refuse to consider that we'd ever go back to only a time or two a week. Sometimes we wait a day just to give our bodies a chance to recover, but if we're not making love every other day, then it definitely seems like it's way too long between times, and I miss the connection.

"I understand your point about the media bias; however, I have discovered that my wife has the sexiest bare arms and seeing her in a sleeveless shirt has been more of a turn on than I ever thought. She has always kept herself in great shape but a few new items in the wardrobe has really turned up the desire. She has this one top that still takes me by surprise when I see her out in public. "Wow, that sexy woman is going home with me????" Sure, we don't look like we did when we were 20 but on the other hand my wife puts many of the 20-somethings out there to shame.

"Another major impact was acknowledging that she has a high need for physical attractiveness. It's amazing how losing 40 to 50 pounds has improved the way she looks at me or responds. The more she responds the more enjoyable it is. The more enjoyable then the more frequent...

"So, bottom line is our whole marriage is better. I hate the fact that I wasted so much time. I can't believe how great our marriage is now and wish I had done my part to have made life like this 30 years ago."

Back from me--I had to edit out a couple of sentences due to tmi. I wanted to add that about 10 or so years ago, he went to a special class kind of study through a church that discussed sexual addictions, masturbation being one of them. He dropped the habit at that time. His performance vastly improved, but the frequency didn't change very much. MB has made the difference there. Masturbation insidious and had a disastrous effect on our marriage over the long term.

Dr. Harley advocates sex only between spouses; I would imagine that to mean no-ah, sex toys. I used one a bit, though, while H was deployed, figuring it would sort of keep me in practice, so to speak. (okay, whew, tmi, tmi.) Long post, sorry. I appreciate H posting, because he never does, but I told him of the difficult situation and asked his perspective. I would love to get him to post, but he's not into it.

wow, thanks LWFH! that was terrific of you, and your H, to share so honestly w/me. i really, really appreciate it! food for thought...

i may have been too stark in my writing. when we get time away, like last week, we have sf every day. but when we're home working, it's another story. i am going to read your post to my H and encourage some open & honest conversation about the topic. it's going to hurt, i think, so expect some posts to my thread. i won't lunk up UWs with it.

unwritten, i've been thinking about your cleaning dilemma since reading all the posts in your thread last night. you don't like to clean. your H doesn't care WHO does it, as long as it's done. why *don't* you hire a housecleaner? it's seems such an easy solution and one worry gone!

i'm like your H. i like a tidy house. i currently work full time, but when we lived in the states i did not. we had a house cleaner there (and do i miss her), and now we have one here. i even had one here when i didn't work!

i will not spend my "downtime" doing chores! i do a "spring clean" myself each quarter when i have school breaks. in between times, i'm willing to live with her cleaning so i have time doing things i *want* to do. life's too short.

i wonder if your feeling "put out" by societal expectations? do you feel you *have* to clean the house because "that's what SAHMs do?" your H is happy with help. the person who is unhappy is you - why? believe me, coming from LA, i know how hard it is to deal with others' expectations. there's no meaner group than a LA-based PTA club! *whew!* but i'm wondering why you feel so pressured to conform to an artificial SAHM mold that *isn't* held up by your husband. who will be judging you if you hire in help? and do you really care what they think?

or...is your issue with the cleaning/hiring a cleaner a symptom of something else?

i've just come in from tending to my horse. i so envy your future egg collecting. i'm dying for a chook house, but my H won't let me have one!

OK I'm back. Usually MIA on the weekends.

Letty my H is only 34, and since this has been going on since we got married (at the age of 22, for him), this is not an age thing.

And, I will add that I do not have the same rules for myself regarding 'extracurricular activities' when H is not present (and sometimes when he is ! ) because, he doesn't mind and it doesn't do anything to negatively affect our SF relationship.

Thank you to everyone for sharing their stories and thoughts.

We did have a discussion last night about EN's, including my SF needs and his DS and PA needs.

We explored many reasons why he might not be more enthusiastic about SF.

The underlying ego damage done by my high desire and feeling like he can't ever please me. Also because I had more experience before I met him, feeling like an ex bf could please me and he can't.

Also he said he feels like with my high desire and assertiveness it takes away his 'man role,' and that with me he is always trying to assert his manliness more or less. He works in business, but he is a hunter/fisherman/outdoorsy man, extreme camping, drives a big truck, can do any project around the house...this is not a man who has to prove his manliness IMO. But apparently he feels like he has to around me.

I told him there were things that we have already discussed to try and increase his desire for SF and I was frustrated he was completely unconcerned with doing them. Such as, working out to feel better about himself and/or have more energy, stop masturbating, etc. He just said 'ah huh' so there was no commitment to doing anything, unfortunately.

Then at the end he said he felt 'defeated' and that there was no way to make me happy. Which kinda indicates to me that he isn't going to try all that hard, and that he feels my need is just out of whack.

Regarding the SF thing, I am very frustrated and disheartened about it. I feel like I will never have that need met. I have not seen in him a desire to meet it. And I am starting to have major hangups about it, second guessing myself in everything I say or do, losing confidence in my sexuality I guess. I feel BAD for it being such an unusually high need (for a girl) and for being so assertive, etc.

Oh ya we also talked about DS. I told him he needed to catch up on my thread, but was kindof trying to tell him the gist of what Indy was saying about the difference between doing something enthusiastically vs sacrificing. He was pretty defensive and kept cutting me off until I told him to stop interrupting me! Clearly he disagrees that I should NOT be doing DS/cleaning if I am not enthusiastic about it (he thinks it is perfectly acceptable to do something for your spouse that you are not enthusiastic about, for THEM....sacrifice in other words). Since I have not come to terms with the theory myself we basically left it as status quo.

PA. Since we rated each other on our needs using the questionnaire, I got a rating on this. He gave me a 'low 2.' I refrained from getting defensive, even though every fiber of my being wanted too! Such a difficult thing to hear, that your spouse has attraction issues with you. He basically said he wanted me to be in better shape. I said, 'p90x shape or thinner shape' and he said both, he wants me to be thinner and he wants me to be as fit as someone in the P90X videos. We do actually do P90X but randomly, not enough to be as fit as those people! He said he wanted me to 'focus on my stomach more.' So I am 40, have had 3 kids, gained 60lbs+ in every pregnancy. Even at my fittest since having my kids, which was thinner than I was when I got married, I STILL had a little bit of 'mama tummy' on me, ya know what I mean girls? I am convinced that no matter how much AbRipperX I do, there will a mama tummy on me. Oh and BTW, plastic surgery was discussed. I will admit that I am not opposed to a little tummy tuck, and it was originally my idea, but I don't know that I would even consider going through those means if it weren't for his lack of PA desire for me.

So IDK ladies, tell me what you think in terms of if this is realistic or not. IDK how I feel about it. It is 'doable.' I could eat no sugar, ever, do P90X every day, have a hardcore body and then on top of it get some plastic surgery to get rid of any leftover baby damage and be at 100%. I don't know if I feel like his expectation for me to do this is a little TOO over the top though. Frankly I don't know how sustainable this ideal is long term either. What do you all think? I guess men can chime in here too.

As for me, as with the SF I feel....I don't know what word I'm looking for here, bad, judged...regarding PA. I think I am a hot woman. Not 'perfect', but 'in a normal weight range' hot. And I feel like he wants me to be 100% of what I can be, before he will be satisfied. I feel 'not good enough' until I reach that goal. And that kinda sucks. I guess these may be the personal feelings that accompany many people regarding the PA need though, ya?

Last night I brought this up as an option, and he did NOT sound enthusiastic about it. He has mentioned it in the past and yet now, sounded put off by the idea that I would hire someone to do my one and only job. So, guess this is not an option, for now.


Yes, I do feel like its 'my job' as a SAHM. I think it IS held up by my husband, and myself frankly. And I do care what he thinks.

I already get called 'spoiled' by people, because I stay home, buy whatever I want, etc. I feel spoiled frankly! Yes I guess I do feel bad that other people would think I am not only spoiled but lazy because I don't even clean the house too! Heck, I got 2x4's handed to me IN THIS THREAD by experienced posters for not being willing to just 'buck up and clean' so goodness knows what society in general will do.


Its a symptom of how I define myself, more or less. Right now I define myself as a SAHM. If I am a SAHM who doesn't do anything at home, then what am I? IDK. It's a SAHM thing, I think.



We will have horses too! I like to trail ride in the summer. And I really like the smell of barns!

I might have fryers, not sure. I had thought not, because I will give them names and then chopping off their heads will be so complex. But I guess you butcher them pretty early in life, poor things, so then I won't have time to name them. Maybe that won't be so bad. Fresh chicken would be refreshing, over that store boat somanila infested stuff.

Now you know how he feels, you can act on his complaint. Will you?



You have got to stop thinking that he is supposed to do what you ask, simply because it's an EN.

If he isnt enthusiastic, it won't be a POJA solution.

You NEED him to be honest about a lack of enthusiasm.

When he goes 'ah hum', tell him 'I can see you're not enthusiastic about that particular idea, so lets keep thinking up solutions until we find something we both like'



Massive DJ.



Larger still DJ.

He has TOLD you his complaint regarding enthusiasm. What is going to be done about his complaint?



You never had POJA before.




Why would you feel bad about being assertive? Before it was discussed, how would you know that was not welcomed? Some men like it, some men don't. Like sugar in coffee.

Stop assuming blame. Your H has a preference, less assertiveness you have a preference, more assertiveness. Now you have to negotiate the right amount of 'sugar' in the coffee, the right amount of assertiveness, so you both get served the way you like it.

You must stop taking this all so personally. Why beat yourself up about simple preferences?

Our opinion doesnt even figure. Our enthusiasm has no effect on the POJA between you and your H.

If YOU ARE NOT ENTHUSIASTIC - you cant POJA his suggestion.

You can take it seriously. You can brainstorm. You can decide to make it part of your RC and UA time by doing it together.

But unless there are two enthusiastic hands up from YOU and HIM (i.e. not us) then there can be no POJA agreement.

Have you done POJA with your marriage coach? Are you being honest when you are not enthusiastic about doing something?

"Now you know how he feels, you can act on his complaint. Will you?"

I feel like I have already acted on his complaints.

I have worked hard to not be verbally assertive. I have worked hard to not be 'the groper.' I have actually asked for SF far less than I ever used to. And the result is I have GOTTEN IT LESS.

If I don't assert, the theory is he will, but he doesn't, so we just go without. How long is that acceptable?

I can't do anything about my underlying 'desire' nor can I do anything about the fact that I have had ex lovers.

"You have got to stop thinking that he is supposed to do what you ask, simply because it's an EN."

I don't expect him to do it. But he tells me he WANTS to meet that need, and I tell him what he can do to help meet that need, and he just ignores it. Such as the masturbating. Dr Harley himself disagrees with masturbating, because of its damage to SF in marriages. Yet I am to POJA that with him because he wants to continue doing it, even though it is damaging to our SF relationship?