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Originally Posted by unwritten
Well. I just got back from MC where we discussed this little panic attack I had last week. My episodes of feeling indifferent and checked out. My frustration with H not really working hard on recovery. He has made some strides, don't get me wrong. He has been more considerate, less self centered, has been in charge of scheduling weekly lunches and date nights. There is progress.

But its not enough. He is frustrated, feeling like I am not ever happy I suppose. I am feeling like, this type of maintenance that he is doing is great! And would be sufficient if we were trying to maintain an otherwise happy and healthy relationship. We are not. We are trying to dig ourselves out of this deep, deep hole of destruction before we can even begin to 'maintain.'

I know I have been called out in this thread to 'drive the boat of recovery.' I spent a decade ready to do anything to make this a better marriage. Even when I was in rebellion mode I was praying for him to just come clean so we could work on recovery. Then, he did come clean. Yet, we didn't work on recovery. We just...existed. Brushed it under the rug. I went from VERY resentful and angry, to just indifferent I guess. I can't remember the other stages but I have probably been through all of them except whichever the healthy one is! For the first decade the Giver was in charge and worshipped the ground he walked on. Don't want that back, fo sho. He took full advantage of that Giver! Then a year of Anger, is that a stage? Good thing I wasn't posting then or the mods would have kicked me off a here! Now, indifference/Withdrawal?

So I know what needs to be done. I know we need more UA time to build some love, and we need to invest into our MB home program, which has been sitting in our basement collecting dust through all of this. I just can't find it in me to walk down there and brush off the dust. I guess like you RQ, if he isn't fully invested, isn't willing to do everything he can to keep me here, then neither am I. I just need to see his desire to want this to change. I need to see him fight for this. His own indifference and lack of desire to go above and beyond, speaks volumes to me. It does NOT inspire me to move forward in recovery.

I guess I just need to know that I am moving forward with someone who values and loves me and wants to recover this. If he doesn't, why do I?

So...I have been giving a lot of thought about the withdrawn state. I guess my goal is to try and behave my way to success, or action first feelings later. Fight my urge to withdraw and just force myself to keep filling needs as much as possible, etc. What other advice is there to force myself out of this withdrawal state?


I totally understand. In fact, it is scary how similar we both feel about this. I'm meeting with my IC tonight to talk about my withdrawal. I feel that my personal recovery is more important than the marital recovery right now. No one else seems to care about my PR except me (and you all here) and my IC.

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Hmm. Not sure how to go about explaining that. Oh yes H had a ONS, and several other EA's and questionable situations throughout the years that we were married. He lied and deceived me for a long time. (Must interject here that I too, have had piss poor boundaries and wayward behavior...lest it seem I blame this all on him...) I decided to recover from those things and repair our marriage. But...then I left because I wasn't gettin enough booty. LOL.

I know its not a laughing matter, this not meeting of EN's. And I get what you are saying about not putting the care into a marriage, looking at it that way.

But you are right that it is subject to...uneasiness...or something like that. The constant emotional turmoil has made connecting on that intimate level difficult, to say the least, for both of us. Sometimes it almost does more damage than good, depending on one or both of our attitudes at the time. Oh wait, I think I might feel some resentment comin on! Because it could have been amAZing for us, sex and intimacy, but all this deception and division has taken that away and left us struggling to connect and leaving H struggling to even want to try, I guess. Its a shame really, all the things that have been lost. OK I'm done. Shoo resentment go away you are not welcome here...

Well I will see this through. Keep meeting his EN's and trying to restore the Love Banks that have been so ungraciously depleted by all this unbelievably stupid decision making (no I really said go away, you are not welcome). Hopefully as his Love Bank grows for me he will desire me more, or at the very least get to the point where he wants to fill my needs. If that time doesn't come and his current lack of desire to 'care' for me doesn't change, guess I will have to reevaluate.

Before you get all excited about the 4 hrs of cleaning, remember when it comes to DS I am easily distracted and counterproductive. I try really hard, work really hard, but my lack of focus equates to a dog discovering he has a tail, and spending 1 out of 4 hours chasing it. But even 3 is making a dent:)

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Yes RQ we care about your personal recovery! If I had a dollar for every time I wished I had discovered these boards and all this overwhelmingly valuable knowledge YEARS ago, heck before we were married would have been nice but any time after that, I would have been a different person. A better person, better wife, better mother. I don't know if I would still be married because I would have been STRONGER and known what to do rather than just wallow around in self pity like this is my destiny, to be married to all this crap. I guess reading stories on here of people who have been married 15, 20, 30 yrs and could say the same thing has made me thankful for my 13. I think we are ALL on a road to personal recovery, from the trauma's associated with a deceptive marriage, it is one of the most amazing things about being here.

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UW:

I just read your thread. My take is that you haven't done the BASICS of the program. And you're not working at it diligenty enough.

WHat is your concrete plan to meet EN, UA and, above all, your EPs. You talk about UA time, but aren't meeting it.

I'm 1.5 years from DDay. Felt like I was hit by a bus; every bone crushed. I know resentment. I know anger. I know the gall of having to lead the ship of your own recovery.

Suggestion? How about with every "venting" post you write, you also give us one or two or three concrete steps/actions you've taken to repair your marriage or fill your H's love bank FOR THAT DAY or WEEK. And what are his? You may be leading the ship, but he better be rowing ... hard!

Someone else wrote it on here somwhere: one day becomes another, and then another, and then a year. And instead of "working" at your marriage, it has BECOME your marriage.

Just a couple of other thoughts:
None of us likes housework. I work outside the home and have to clean, too. To me, it's like a boring, distasteful task I have to do at my job. I don't like it, but I get it done, because I like the rest of my job. I clean because I like an organized, peaceful and clean home. Hate the chore; love the result.

SF: It is simply unacceptable for your H to not meet this need, but perhaps you need to think about this a bit differently. You've been emotional and physically apart for years. How would you flirt/woo him? You did it once, and I bet if you approached it that way, you might have more success?

Not talking about the affair. This KILLED me. I agree with you about it being so traumatic, how can I ignore it? But NG's analogy of the wound is correct. Vent here. And when you are triggered, tell your H your are triggering. I asked my FWH to hug me and recognize that I'm being triggered (that was really important to me!), and, well, own it. We NEVER say the word AFFAIR. And now when I'm triggered, he hugs me, says he's sorry and has added his own vow: To get me to the great place where he is. (He knows I still suffer, and he wants that to end, and he knows it's his job to help me get there).

Hope this helps.

SweetPea


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Thanks SP.

You are right. We haven't done the basics, and we have NOT been working diligently enough.

I have no concrete plan. Just have H's EN's at the top of my mind all the time. First is RC but he did say he was getting enough of that already, we have many shared hobbies and common interests that we do together. Still in the quest to bump up UA time, we have worked to do even more. His second is DS. I have had a few people comment on the housework thing. I think the misunderstanding is that I just don't like to do it and therefore don't. Like a spoiled brat who doesn't want to eat her vegetables. Not the case AT ALL. Of course I don't like to do it, and I realize nobody does. But I do work very hard. I do not sit home every day and watch Oprah and eat bon bons. I just have a very ADHD personality and have a hard time focusing on tasks that are unenjoyable, and I am naturally disorganized and therefore seem to take one step forward to every two steps backward. So its not a lack of trying that stands in my way, just the focus issues/disorganization issues. Everyone who says 'well just organize yourself' or 'you just need to clean more' doesn't quite understand what I'm talking about. But LOVE you people who are neat and orderly and organized! Wish I could be like you. In any case, I have been working very hard to set a timer and remind myself whenever I get off task that if the timer has not beeped yet I have a goal and need to stay focused! (I have a child with ADHD and I try and use the same techniques with him...) So I am not really excusing bad behavior, just trying to dispel the common impression that I just don't care and don't try, that I feel like if I don't like it I don't have to do it. That's not it at all. Bottom line is, whatever my problem is, its a need of his and if I have to work at it 8 hrs a day to accomplish what the average person would do in half that time, I have to do it. H's third is Affection. I give him more affection than a normal person would know what to do with. The fourth for the record, is SF. Enough said.

UA. Not happening. I've explained why in a previous post, or several I guess. I have no excuse. He doesn't prioritize it and I just have a really, really hard time pushing him to spend the time with me. Really hard time. How do I get over that and just keep plugging forward?

EP's. We have never put our EP's in writing. I guess I did a quick version in this thread once, and transferred it to a word document to fine tune it for our sitch. But I never did and we never shared them in writing. He has not written any for me. We have discussed them in length however, agree to everything, and have applied them.

He is rowing, but definitely not hard.

As far as flirting and wooing. Flirting is a talent I have downpat. We flirt with each other throughout the day, almost every day, except the 'bad' days when one of us is triggered by something and that puts a dent in it. I'm not really sure about wooing him, what that means or how to do it better? I guess I have always been flirtatious and affectionate to him, that hasn't helped. I'm hoping having a cleaner house will help:) Any suggestions on wooing a man to get SF would be greatly appreciated...

Well one day this week I was triggered. It was totally my own fault too. I was discussing with a friend of mine her own A (past), and she asked me some questions about us and I answered her. I finally said, this is bringing up old stuff I would rather leave behind actually, triggering me. She apologized and we moved on, but that night I was having a hard time with it. I kindof avoided H because I didn't want to be love busting in any way, of course he caught on, asked what was wrong, etc. I said nothing, just a hard day. That is my way of saying I have been triggered and just need time to cope and get over it. Which I did, but a couple hrs later when I had forced the whole thing out of my mind and started to engage him then HE was withdrawn because me being triggered had triggered him??? Its the cat and mouse game, as I like to call it. Frustrating.

So what you are saying SP is 1)stop whining, 2) create a plan, and 3) implement. Gotcha. Notice gaps in my thread where I took this advice, implemented, got frustrated with what I perceive to be a lack of rowing at the other end of the boat, and end up on here venting again. Not sure what to do about that. How to just buckle down and row without looking back to see why there is drag.


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Also, for the record. I spew often on other peoples threads about making their WS take a poly, and not committing to recovery without knowing that you have all the information. This, is the pot calling the kettle black. I BELIEVE this. I have not IMPLEMENTED this.

My story is, decade of WH lying to me about PA and several EA's. Went into a FIGHT mode and had a year of trickle truth. Poly was discussed over that year, H would not take one (obviously). Finally, at the end, I demanded that he take it or I walk. This is when he confessed the PA. I NEVER HAD THE POLY. I have been called out on this a couple times (by SusieQ?). I have no idea if I have all the information. I know I know this could be a HUGE factor in my lack of committment to this recovery.

H has been verbally enthusiastic about taking one since DDay. Several months ago I reinvested in the thought of a poly and told him that yes, indeed, I needed him to take one. Months later, he has not.

This came up in MC this week, I was using it as an example of why I felt he wasn't committed to recovery or healing me. The MC basically said, if this is important to you it should be done(after some mumbo jumbo about false results blah blah blah). H sat next to me and I could feel the weight on him from where I was sitting. At the time, stupidly, I thought he was just feeling bad about this discussion. But about an hour later I realized it was the heaviness I felt from him on DDay.

I did mention this to him. He still swears there is nothing else. If there is folks, I will move this to the divorce board pronto. There are no false recoveries for this lady. This was a one time deal.

He is in charge of setting up the poly. By the way, I did state that I thought I should take one too. He has reason to not trust me in the same manner that I have reason to not trust him, I would prefer we start on a completely clean slate. As of now he tells me he doesn't think its necessary.

He has asked me for advice on polys. I wish he would just get his behind on this board and show some desire to learn from all you wonderful people too, but he isn't going to do that. So does anyone have any advice on polygraphers? How to find a good one? Also questions, I don't really know where to start on those. I have read on other peoples threads but seems like they differ for each set of circumstances?

Thanks for any poly guidance you can give me.

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UW:

I can't stress enough how you should buy and read "Surviving an Affair." You really need to steep yourself in the basics of the program so that you can move forward.

Why? Because what you're doing right now isn't working. Your second need isn't being met (SF), and neither is your H's (DS). I'd take a real hard look if you are even meeting both of your top needs.

And you may want to examine your top needs. Perhaps one of them can be doing his part in your marriage recovery. Trust me, I had to KNOCK MY FWH over the head with this until he got it. Why? Because he thought doing MB, AND marriage counseling AND his own therapy was more than enough. But it wasn't. I had to specifically tell him that I needed more.

Perhaps you need to schedule a weekly hour (make it a "happy" hour with wine) after the kids are in bed and talk about MB principles and how you did the previous week and what UA time you can commit to the next week.

Daily and weekly check-ins are a must. Otherwise, it's just far to easy to let everything slip under the rug of "normal." And you've experienced that enough already and know that it isn't "normal."

Also: My humble opinion is that your RA time isn't meeting UA time ... otherwise, you would feel more benefits from it. Personally, I'd put much of your separate RA time aside for now to work on your marriage. Hobbies can wait. Your marriage is at a crossroads and if you want it to be AFFAIR PROOF as well as AMAZINGLY HAPPY, put the time and effort in now.

And, housework? You made me totally laugh at the thought of me being neat and tidy. I'm anything but that! LOL! I have to FORCE myself to do those chores. I agree that ADD is a bear to deal with (my stepson has it, so I empathize). But ... you sound capable, smart and motivated. I'm sure you can slay the domestic support beast.

(I have no advice on poly; my FWH admitted everything straight away, so I never had to deal with that. Hope I never do!)

Cheers,
SP


Me: 47
BH: 48, previously married
Married: Nov. 27, 2004
DDay: Nov. 13, 2010
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FYI: how can H share the recovery burden?

1) HE can schedule a date night and make it a priority.
2) He can be in charge of talking about MB and your upcoming, scheduled UA time.
3) He can ask you if he is meeting your needs.

Make sense? Figure out what would make you happy in terms of using MB for success, and then POJA the strategies, making sure he is 50% (or more) responsible for concrete steps. That way, you both get what you want: you get help in guiding the recovery ship and he gets a happy wife.

SP


Me: 47
BH: 48, previously married
Married: Nov. 27, 2004
DDay: Nov. 13, 2010
Kids: stepsons DS17 and DS13
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Originally Posted by sweetpea2011
UW:

I can't stress enough how you should buy and read "Surviving an Affair." You really need to steep yourself in the basics of the program so that you can move forward.

SP thank you so much for taking the time to read my thread, and give me advice!

We own SAA, it has been collecting dust in our basement since before DDay.

Originally Posted by sweetpea2011
Why? Because what you're doing right now isn't working. Your second need isn't being met (SF), and neither is your H's (DS). I'd take a real hard look if you are even meeting both of your top needs.

Mine: OH, don't know if he is meeting this one. Guess you only know what you know. Without trust, how do you really ever know. His: RC. IDK we have a LOT of common interests and hobbies. When we first started and he filled out the EN he said I was meeting and he liked how I was meeting his need for RC. We have only added more time together. So not sure how I could better meet this need.

Originally Posted by sweetpea2011
And you may want to examine your top needs. Perhaps one of them can be doing his part in your marriage recovery. Trust me, I had to KNOCK MY FWH over the head with this until he got it. Why? Because he thought doing MB, AND marriage counseling AND his own therapy was more than enough. But it wasn't. I had to specifically tell him that I needed more.

I didn't quite understand the first sentence. The rest sounds VERY familiar, H keeps saying he is frustrated because he has made so many changes and its not good enough. I feel bad that he feels like I am not appreciating the changes, but he's right, its not good enough.

Originally Posted by sweetpea2011
Perhaps you need to schedule a weekly hour (make it a "happy" hour with wine) after the kids are in bed and talk about MB principles and how you did the previous week and what UA time you can commit to the next week.

Yes. Totally agree. Just change that wine to Jeremiah Weed Sweet Tea Vodka.

Originally Posted by sweetpea2011
Daily and weekly check-ins are a must. Otherwise, it's just far to easy to let everything slip under the rug of "normal." And you've experienced that enough already and know that it isn't "normal."

Yes. Absolutely agree.

Originally Posted by sweetpea2011
Also: My humble opinion is that your RA time isn't meeting UA time ... otherwise, you would feel more benefits from it. Personally, I'd put much of your separate RA time aside for now to work on your marriage. Hobbies can wait. Your marriage is at a crossroads and if you want it to be AFFAIR PROOF as well as AMAZINGLY HAPPY, put the time and effort in now.

Hrm. This is a hard one. Must say that I spent a good decade submerged in trying to make my H happy, trying to fix a marriage without even knowing why it was broken. He had hobbies which I supported, I had nothing. Just wallowing in sadness because of the state of my M. My activities are a result of me picking my chin up and not letting my life be controlled and manipulated by the Giver anymore, and they bring me immense personal joy. Giving them up seems like going backwards to me, reminds me of where I've been and where I never want to go again. I hear what you're saying, but its a struggle.

Also, one of the things I have always loved about H is his passion for his hobbies. I have always supported them. I would feel very uncomfortable asking him to give anything up. Also, I feel he would be resentful of me if I asked him to hold back or give any of them up, even temporarily. He would be withdrawn and 'make me pay' with withholding his affection, SF, etc. This is our history, when he doesn't get to do what he wants, or I don't agree, etc. he withdraws from me and withholds these things. We have discussed this in MC and he acknowledges it and seems to want to change it, but it is a struggle. Old habits you know. Just seems counterproduct to push this envelope right now. Oh great now the Giver is back taking control...

Originally Posted by sweetpea2011
And, housework? You made me totally laugh at the thought of me being neat and tidy. I'm anything but that! LOL! I have to FORCE myself to do those chores. I agree that ADD is a bear to deal with (my stepson has it, so I empathize). But ... you sound capable, smart and motivated. I'm sure you can slay the domestic support beast.

Speaking of, I am behind in my 4 hrs and must get to work. Date night tonight you know so must be done before H gets home. Also bought him a card that says, 'I'd walk a mile for one of your smiles...and crawl through broken glass for a piece of your...you know.' Bwahahaha. OK the groper is at it again.

Does that count as wooing???

Originally Posted by sweetpea2011
(I have no advice on poly; my FWH admitted everything straight away, so I never had to deal with that. Hope I never do!)

Cheers,
SP

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Originally Posted by sweetpea2011
FYI: how can H share the recovery burden?

1) HE can schedule a date night and make it a priority.
2) He can be in charge of talking about MB and your upcoming, scheduled UA time.
3) He can ask you if he is meeting your needs.

Make sense? Figure out what would make you happy in terms of using MB for success, and then POJA the strategies, making sure he is 50% (or more) responsible for concrete steps. That way, you both get what you want: you get help in guiding the recovery ship and he gets a happy wife.

SP

1) He is already scheduling our weekly lunches, and MC sessions, and date nights. Check.
2) He avoids this like the plague. During our decade of Plan C I regularly sat him down to 'talk about our relationship.' I am sure that was hard for him because HE WAS LYING the whole time and therefore it was uncomfortable. And in general it was about what he was doing wrong in our relationship (little did I know). And I was always sad and probably pathetic and not the sassy woman he fell in love with. So in general those were painful uncomfortable moments for him. I think he equates 'working the plan' to that.
3) He has done this. I have answered. Hasn't really seemed to have much affect. So, guess the asking is not the problem.

I want him to be 50% or more responsible, which is why I don't drive the boat. Which is why I don't just do all of these things. Because I don't just want him to be a passenger in this. I don't want him to just 'show up.' But I can't MAKE him do that, he has to want to do it on his own. THAT is what lacks here. I don't know how to change that.

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UW"

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We own SAA, it has been collecting dust in our basement since before DDay.

Easy to fix. Get it out. Each of you read xx pages per day.

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Without trust, how do you really ever know.
You should never blindly trust your FWH. It's a fact. He has strayed in the past (so have u). You are both vulnerable. Trust, but verify. Over time, and with great work, I have relaxed a bit, but I will never, ever, ever, ever, ever blindly trust my H again. Hopefully, MB EPs/ENs/UA will prevent another affair. But you can bet I will be checking any emails/phones/alibis if need be.

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I didn't quite understand the first sentence. The rest sounds VERY familiar, H keeps saying he is frustrated because he has made so many changes and its not good enough. I feel bad that he feels like I am not appreciating the changes, but he's right, its not good enough.

My H had a moment of clarity after one particularly awful day, during which I was convinced he'd never be faithful and that he was also incapable of radical honesty. I'll try to explain. He was doing everything (MB, MC and individual therapy). For a guy, he was talking MORE about his feelings, etc., than he'd ever done. And yet ... I often was miserable. That day in particular was really bad. He said: I'm doing everything I can, and that's not enough. I said back: Well, if being a good husband is too hard for you, then maybe we shouldn't be married.

Bing! Then he got it. All of the things he was doing was the BASE LEVEL of what a good husband does and what ensures a STRONG and HAPPY marriage. It felt hard for him because he wasn't used to it. He loves doing these things now, but it was hard at first. He realized that the "minimum" so-to-speak wasn't an extraordinary effort on his part. Just how is "should" be. And he realized he could more. (And what I was asking was not much; sharing of "ship" burden and better communication. Took him awhile, but he is getting there.)

It really was a mind-set change. Does that make sense?

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Jeremiah Weed Sweet Tea Vodka.
Whatever works, sister!

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Also, one of the things I have always loved about H is his passion for his hobbies
Don't you want his passion for YOU and your marriage to be paramount? You are in CRISIS!!!!!! Forget the stupid hobbies. They will be there when you two are recovered.

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Does that count as wooing???
If he likes cards with sexual inuendo, then sure. But I would ask you: What ... specifically ... turns him on? Do that!

Have a great date night!


Me: 47
BH: 48, previously married
Married: Nov. 27, 2004
DDay: Nov. 13, 2010
Kids: stepsons DS17 and DS13
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Originally Posted by sweetpea2011
My H had a moment of clarity after one particularly awful day, during which I was convinced he'd never be faithful and that he was also incapable of radical honesty. I'll try to explain. He was doing everything (MB, MC and individual therapy). For a guy, he was talking MORE about his feelings, etc., than he'd ever done. And yet ... I often was miserable. That day in particular was really bad. He said: I'm doing everything I can, and that's not enough. I said back: Well, if being a good husband is too hard for you, then maybe we shouldn't be married.

Bing! Then he got it. All of the things he was doing was the BASE LEVEL of what a good husband does and what ensures a STRONG and HAPPY marriage. It felt hard for him because he wasn't used to it. He loves doing these things now, but it was hard at first. He realized that the "minimum" so-to-speak wasn't an extraordinary effort on his part. Just how is "should" be. And he realized he could more. (And what I was asking was not much; sharing of "ship" burden and better communication. Took him awhile, but he is getting there.)

It really was a mind-set change. Does that make sense?

It totally makes sense. I have actually used these exact words with him several times in the past month+. That he is doing what he should have ALWAYS been doing. I relate it to starting a relationship on level ground and doing whatever needs to be done to stay there, to maintain a happy and healthy relationship. Vs where we are which is in a deep deep hole that has to be filled before we can even think of resorting to doing just the maintenance. Our MC refers to it as maintenance work vs recovery work. For example, H got me a very nice Mother's Day gift. I love it, and it makes me feel spoiled. He brought this up in MC, can't remember the context but it was kindof like, I haven't done this kind of thing before and now I am, now I am trying to spoil her, why is this not enough? Whereas I'm thinking, LOVE the gift, LOVE feeling spoiled, but this is the first time in 11 years since being a mother I can remember getting a MD gift. So should finally getting one be enough to make me happy and recovered? Of course not! The lightbulb hasn't come on for him yet though, doesn't seem to matter what I say about that.

Originally Posted by sweetpea2011
Don't you want his passion for YOU and your marriage to be paramount? You are in CRISIS!!!!!! Forget the stupid hobbies. They will be there when you two are recovered.


Hrm. Still not sold. All I do all day long is clean the house and wait on people. OK I do more than that, but I mean I am a SAHM. Lets look at it from the perspective that it canNOT be healthy for me (and isn't, proven) to not do ANYTHING else but center my life around my M and my family. Be with them 24/7, have no adult friends (which are mostly centered around my hobbies) or time away from home. I really just cannot fathom my life without all these things. Lots of people have their careers to balance things with, I do not. I have my hobbies. Also, I am the president of a local non profit, kindof like a 'job' I just don't get paid for it. Can't imagine the hardship I would cause to just walk away from it.

Originally Posted by sweetpea2011
If he likes cards with sexual inuendo, then sure. But I would ask you: What ... specifically ... turns him on? Do that!

Have a great date night!

Well, that is just more my sense of humor. To make him laugh. Not really as a 'turn on' lol. I guess I'm not really sure what turns him on...if I knew I'd be making good use of it right about now.

Maybe that will be our date night conversation. What turns you ON H? We have a rule we cannot talk about sad stuff, or logistical stuff while on date night. I think this would work.

Thanks!

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LOVE the gift, LOVE feeling spoiled
Tell him over and over and over again, how this small thing made you feel so good.

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this is the first time in 11 years since being a mother I can remember getting a MD gift.
That is the past and is love-busting (i know you're only saying this here, but don't let that undercurrent bubble up.

You are in a new marriage with a new faithful/fully engaged/honest/EP-guarded H. Celebrate the pluses and they will become self-fulfilling, or second nature, as opposed to some "penalty" he thinks he's paying for the affair.

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have no adult friends
No where does MB say this. For you, with your bad boundaries, it means no alone time with other men. No texting with other men, not flirty emails. You should NOT EVER, EVER, EVER let another man meet your need for admiration, love, interest, ect. And neither should your H with other women.

Friendships are fine. Work is fine. Just do not let other people get even an inch between the intimacy you have with you H. If you don't let anyone in, no one will ever get there.

And here's something to tempt your H: MB is all about "B" building a fantastic marriage. It does mean an extraordinarily close marriage, but it also means an extraoirdinarily HAPPY marriage. When you are meeting each others' needs, you don't need anything else. Other friends and whatnot are nice, just not necessary. Subtle distinction, but worthy of thinking about if you think your marriage is your MOST IMPORTANT LIFELONG ASSET.

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Can't imagine the hardship I would cause to just walk away from it.
I can't imagine the hardship you and your children will face if your marriage crumbles. Compassion is a great thing, but share that when YOU are recovered. Your needs trump all others ... for now.

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Maybe that will be our date night conversation. What turns you ON H?
Love, love, love this idea! Let us know what it is ... unless this board would be taken down due to censoring! wink

Make it a great night!!!!



Me: 47
BH: 48, previously married
Married: Nov. 27, 2004
DDay: Nov. 13, 2010
Kids: stepsons DS17 and DS13
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So... You resent having to PoJA activities, rather than just continuing your IB?

And you wonder why your marriage got wrecked?


"An expert is a person who has made all the mistakes that can be made in a very narrow field." - Niels Bohr

"Smart people believe weird things because they are skilled at defending beliefs they arrived at for non-smart reasons." - Michael Shermer

"Fair speech may hide a foul heart." - Samwise Gamgee LOTR
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Also, I've heard the "I don't get to have friends!!!!!!!!!!!!" complaint before. From my wife. While she was wayward.

Why? Well, she should have been OK to be friends with her AP because she should be able to have "friends." After all, the affair was wrong, but "adult friends" should be OK!



So, would the sneaking suspicion that your resentment is fueled by your connection to an unrevealed "friend" be very far off.


Hobby, "friends," or marriage.

Which one is it?


"An expert is a person who has made all the mistakes that can be made in a very narrow field." - Niels Bohr

"Smart people believe weird things because they are skilled at defending beliefs they arrived at for non-smart reasons." - Michael Shermer

"Fair speech may hide a foul heart." - Samwise Gamgee LOTR
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Thanks unwritten, I've been reading your posts the past couple of days and it has helped me realize I'm not alone in how I feel lately. We have been going through similar instances of not enough UA and I told my husband last night its like he isn't trying that he is sitting back waiting for me to get over it so we can move on, but I've felt so withdrawn I felt ready to throw in the towel. I'm encouraged.


FS(me): 52yrs
WH:51yrs
M: 9 + years
D-Day of supposed "EA": 27 Jun 11
D-Day of PA: 22 Jul 11
NC Day:#1 email 27 Jun 11, #2 email 26 Jul 11
4 DS- 27, 25, 21, 17; 1 SS- 21; 1 DD- 23
3 DIL- 25, 23, 20 and 7 grandkids- 9, 8, 6, 5, 4, 2, 2
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Originally Posted by sweetpea2011
Love, love, love this idea! Let us know what it is ... unless this board would be taken down due to censoring! wink

Make it a great night!!!!

OK SP. We did have a GREAT night. He walked in the door smiling, and said 'I must confess I was just reading your thread.' Bummer because he already knew about the funny card I bought him, lol. But I am always happy to hear that, without provocation, he is reading my thread. Makes me feel like he cares. And I think he can learn a lot by hearing it kindof like a fly on the wall.

He said I already know what turns him on. I said LEGS. He likes legs. I am 5'10 so I do have some legs on me. But I am a little bit tomboy and tend to wear a lot of jeans and tank tops or tshirts, I'm not really fancy. But I CAN be fancy and like to be on occassion. I guess I need to invest in more sundresses, skirts, even shorts. I might even start walking around in high heels to tone them up (although I AM already 5'10, I do love chunky heels and have several pair but I am REALLY tall with them on!).

I already knew he likes pretty feet. Tomboy+big feet+barefoot half my childhood= not pretty feet. I am way ahead of him on this though and had gotten a pedi earlier this week. Now pedi's are not for me, I am about as comfortable in a chair getting a pedi as your average lumberjack. Plus, I am kindof frugal and the cost of getting your nails done is painful for me, even though we have the money. But, if that's what he wants I will continue it. He has said several times he really likes it when my feet are pretty, and I know he has no problem with the cost.

He also said he likes cleavage, which I already show off quite a bit. He has never told me he liked it before but I guess he does.

Now, we did have to discuss some problems with these things. One being that 90% of the time when I 'dress up' which means wear a skirt or dress, heels, he will kindof harrass me about it because he feels like I look way better than him (he's a jeans and t-shirt guy too). I told him he has to stop that. If I try and look nice/sexy then he has to not harrass me for it. We agreed that there were times to dress nicer (lunch dates where he has a business suit on), and also that I need to be 'casual fancy'...he said I am too classy lol but I think he meant I go overboard when he just wants a sundress. Hope he doesn't want a hoochie mama.

He also said he doesn't like me to dress like that because "you are a beautiful woman and I don't like other guys oogling over you." I told him that if I want HIM to oogle over me, that might just be a problem. Not sure how to solve that.

Basically he wants me to be more girly, I wish I was naturally girly and not such a tomboy but I will give it my best shot. It was a nice conversation, we were both very negotiable. He basically said, dress like you are going out on a date to meet a guy you've never met, appropriate to the situation but looking hot. That will be forefront in my mind.

And, we discussed the whole SF thing. Must be reading my thread but I think he is starting to understand the need more. He said I was too aggressive. And that I want to jump in without warming him up first. Sometimes I feel like SUCH A BOY. And he said that my references to how the roles are reversed hurt his feelings because he already knows that, and he wants to be the man and feels mocked by that. I never knew that. I have always said that because I feel bad being so sexual, not because I was trying to make HIM feel bad. He said he wanted my flirting to be more subtle and less 'this is ending up in bed or else' so to speak. I am not a very subtle person usually. He said you wouldn't go on a date with someone and be that blatant about it, you would be more suggestive and less 'let's get it on.' I will work HARD to tone it down! Likewise I told him my fear was if I am not slightly aggressive and demanding about it (yes LB I know) then I would not get any! Because that is our history, when I pull back to see if he will be the aggressor or instigator I just go a long time with no sex. He said he will be very considerate of that.

So, good information shared. We had a nice dinner, good conversation, and great....well I'll leave that part out....

I am excited to make the changes.

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Originally Posted by HoldHerHand
So... You resent having to PoJA activities, rather than just continuing your IB?

And you wonder why your marriage got wrecked?

Well HHH, thank you for taking the time to post on my thread.

My H and I are in agreement about the activities, he is as supportive of mine as I am of his and we also share some together. So...it isn't really a PoJA thing because we are both in total agreement. I have never invested in activities he was not in agreement with or support of, and vice versa.

And no, I don't think our activities wrecked our marriage. I think our infidelities and lack of boundaries wrecked our marriage.

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Originally Posted by HoldHerHand
Also, I've heard the "I don't get to have friends!!!!!!!!!!!!" complaint before. From my wife. While she was wayward.

Why? Well, she should have been OK to be friends with her AP because she should be able to have "friends." After all, the affair was wrong, but "adult friends" should be OK!

You have misinterpreted my 'adult friends' comment to mean MALE friends. We SAHM's talk about our 'adult friends' as a means of saying 'separate from our mommy time.' I did not mean male friends.

Yes I have fought tooth and nail on this thread to not have to give up all male contact. And lost. And saw the light about good boundaries. And made the necessary changes to put boundaries around my marriage.

Originally Posted by HoldHerHand
So, would the sneaking suspicion that your resentment is fueled by your connection to an unrevealed "friend" be very far off.

Yes, it would be very far off. If you are suggesting I am currently in some kind of affair, that is very far off indeed. I have total transparancy to my H, and I welcome it. He has access to every account I have, cell phone, has a GPS tracker on my phone and frankly that makes me feel cared for. He can put any other snooping device on my computer, phone, etc., secretly or not, and I have no problem with that. Like I said, I welcome it as a step to prove to him that I am trustworthy, and because it makes me feel cared for.


Originally Posted by HoldHerHand
Hobby, "friends," or marriage.

Which one is it?

It is ALL. I don't want my life to be only about being a mother and wife. That is one of the ONLY things I will not agree to. And before you start talking about PoJA on this, H is in full agreement.

But I will prioritize them in the following order: MARRIAGE, friends, hobbies.

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Originally Posted by MisplacedTexan
Thanks unwritten, I've been reading your posts the past couple of days and it has helped me realize I'm not alone in how I feel lately. We have been going through similar instances of not enough UA and I told my husband last night its like he isn't trying that he is sitting back waiting for me to get over it so we can move on, but I've felt so withdrawn I felt ready to throw in the towel. I'm encouraged.

Thanks MT and I am happy to hear somehow my posts about being resentful and withdrawn are encouraging someone...surprised tho! Today, I am having a GREAT day. Great date night with H, lots of good discussion and negotiating and PoJAing. I told him last night that 'it doesn't take much effort on his part to inspire me.' Meaning, when I see the smallest effort on his part, like him reading my thread, or whatever, it inspires me and gives me the strength and energy to go full speed ahead for awhile.

Good luck with your sitch, I will have to check to see if you have a thread to follow.

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