I'm assuming you guys have had multiple discussions on what would make him more enthusiastic, right? The only answer I can remember is your working out more and all that.

My H and I have POJA'd things at times by the method of trading favors of sort. (No, not sexual favors! OK, well...sometimes. LOL) You have to be careful with that though: it can't be where you are sacrificing for each other as that's a no no. Example: lets say I don't feel like folding clothes but it needs to be done and it's my job to do it. Maybe H isn't enthusiastic about taking that job for me if I ask, but - if I offer to scratch his back for a time period, it makes him enthusiastic about folding the clothes for me. He's enthusiastic about the chore, I'm enthusiastic about scratching his back... it's win win, with no sacrifice.

Perhaps in some way you could sweeten the pot that entices him towards more SF without it being overt and direct, which he sees as a demand.

I don't know if I've ever read anything in MB on "incentives" in particular but I don't see anything wrong with them as long as it's not a sacrifice. Someone can (and will, I'm sure) correct me if I'm wrong. LOL

Edited because I want to ask.... how long has H been low drive? Always? Recently? If always then it's just a personal thing. (But still needs to be worked through.) If he hasn't always been low drive, then the underlying reason needs to be detected, be it health, a power play, related to the A issues, or something else.

Thanks for sharing your Dr experience SunnyD. He agrees, and thinks his system is indeed out of whack, even though the levels were in the normal range.

And I also like hollistic Drs. Its a shame insurance doesn't recognize this approach to medicine.

H has addressed his health issues, some of them come down to pain management however, and so he is often dealing with pain. Although his health issues are a factor, his lack of interest in SF predates his health issues.

I do think he needs to manage his health better, with good eating, sleeping, exercise, etc. I think that would made a very big impact.

Well, if the low drive has ALWAYS been an issue, since the beginning of your relationship, it's just him - the way he's built. If it's been come/go, then it means outside factors - whether health, stress, taking care of his own needs without you, age, etc... could all be an influence. No matter what the reason, I know it must suck. My biggest concern is that it has become a "power" issue within your relationship. Following the MB plan should eliminate that within a marriage, however.

Edited to add - the holistic approach really can make a difference to your health - and yes, a shame insurance ignores it. My doc said I should expect to feel better mentally and emotionally - as well as physically!

And...I know if a person is struggling with chronic pain it truly can affect everything else. I've been dealing with this shoulder/arm/neck pain because of my herniated disks since the end of May and it's no fun! It makes me crabby at times and I'm not as lively when I'm in pain. I have to be conscious not to LB my hubby or family when I'm hurting. The key is to do everything you can about it.

Yep. Lots of conversations. The thing about the working out. He specifically told me, he wanted me to be more 'petite.' Since I am 5'10 I do not consider myself capable of 'petite.' So to make sure I understood, I said what does that mean to you. He explained it as 'slender, fit.' I said, fit as in 'skinny' or fit as in 'P90X fit.' He said, BOTH. I want you to be skinny and at a level of P90X fitness. That is almost a verbatum of the conversation, it was simple, precise, as I wanted to know specifically what he envisioned. So, I started doing P90X every day. Now, I love working out, but I was a tad concerned about being at the level of P90X fitness ALL THE TIME. That is a very high level of fitness. Well about a month later we are talking about it. I think it was a conversation about eating, if I remember, we were ordering take out and I declined getting anything. It bothered him that the rest of the family was eating and I wasn't. I said I cannot eat that kind of food anymore, if you want a wife who looks like a P90Xer then you cannot have a wife that will eat whatever. See we both are active but we also both enjoy good food! Its a balance. But to achieve the level of fitness he said he wants, I have to be very very careful about what I eat, so that good food has to go. Well then he said that is not what he wants. I'm like, that's what you said, EXACTLY word for word what you said, do you not remember telling me that? Yes I remember, but that is not what I really meant.... HUH? This is called, NOT good communication. I repeated the conversation, and said, did I misunderstand what you SAID somehow. Nope, I said that, I just did not exactly MEAN that. What I meant is that I know YOU want to be really fit, so that is what I want you to look like for YOU. /unwritten shakes head in confusion/ He said he wants me to have balance, be active but also still go out for dinner with him and not obsess about what I eat. Anyway, now I kinda have no idea what he wants, physically, because apparently asking him is not working out for me.

IDK I am just approaching the whole PA thing as 'what do I think I need to do to be at my best.' I would like to be more fit, so I am working on that. I would like to dress up a little bit more. Heck I'm even planning to get a tummy tuck. If he wants me to change something, within reason, I will def entertain the idea. I am not opposed to change, my hair has been every length and color known to mankind (I have settled for long, dark brown with a splash of red...love )But I think it is as much a responsibility of his to TELL ME HONESTLY what he wants. Good grief I am not a mind reader, what is this "I know I said that but that is not what I meant..." I can't do anything with that.

The side of me that feels rejected and semi insecure about SF wants to look in the mirror and blame myself somehow. But the largest portion of Unwritten is sassy and confident and I KNOW that this is not about me not being attractive. There are deeper issues than that.

I have stopped the selfish demands, expectations, etc. I laid off so much, H actually said "what do I need to do to get the old UW back?" I said, she is gone, this is what you have to work with. Now YOU have to work for it too.

But, that hasn't panned out to more SF. Apparently that too is ineffective. Sorry HHH, T-Rex does NOT want to hunt, in this situation. T-Rex just doesn't like meat, I guess.

I will trade favors...bwahahaha. I am confused about sacrifice and enthusiasm. Seems to me like although that is majorly frowned upon, sometimes it is recommended, such as in that piece of the article I posted.

I have found I am not creative, when it comes to POJA or any of this stuff. How do I 'sweeten the pot?' All I can think of is offering some kind of crazy porn sex, and I already offer that on a regular basis so not sure what kind of new trick I can pull out of the hat.

H once told me that his old girlfriends all complained that he was 'too aggressive' sexually. Um, what??? I would say that his lack of desire predates me, but apparently it started with me. It is something to do with the dynamic of our relationship. Because clearly he had it at one time. Power play? Very possible. H has a tendency and def did in the beginning of our relationship of being controlling and manipulative. He would use it to barter with or withhold it to get what he wanted. When I went into plan wayward FU I had the power, and we had sex all the time. Now that I am letting go of resentment, reforming my wayward ways, seems we are back at square one. Guess he like the competition, challenge, whatever. But why can't he desire me when we have a healthy relationship??? It predates the As so that can't be it, they have only completely complicated things. IDK I have tackled this issue from every Freudian approach possible, at the end of the day I just want to have sex with my husband, often, and in an entertaining variety of ways. Why does it have to be so complex.

Absolutely.

Well, the P90X seemed extreme. Maybe he came to see how difficult that really was.

Sweetening the pot - you don't have to sweeten it with any kind of SF act; it can be something else that he likes that you feel good about doing - like a back rub or a favorite meal - or whatever. Be creative!

From what you're saying it certainly does sound like it's become a power struggle.

I don't think I've ever posted to you, but I have been reading along on your thread for awhile.

This may have already been covered, so sorry if I missed it, but does your H claim that he never has any desire for SF, or is it that he just desires it less often than you do?

If it's the first, then it may well be a health-related problem. If it's the latter, then it might just be a difference in sex-drive. Not all people have the same drive, after all.

My H still desires sex (according to him), but has been unable to have it, for the most part, for several years now. We've tried a few times, but it really never works out at all anymore. He went from having PE to having PE and ED. He has been to the doctor and they couldn't find anything wrong. They did say his testosterone was in the "normal" range, but on the low end of normal. That's the problem with T levels - there is a very wide range that is considered normal, and they fluctuate from one day to the next, so you have to have the levels tested several times to get a range.

Overall, my H's health is very good. He rarely ever gets sick. He takes no medications and has no health-related conditions. BP is fine, heart is fine, no diabetes, nothing. He could maybe stand to lose 10-15 lbs., but I definitely wouldn't consider him overweight. His diet is quite healthy and though he doesn't exercise a lot, he does get a decent amount of exercise. Yet, we're still dealing with this problem.

So, I can definitely empathize with your frustration.

You could try threatening him with acupuncture

Hi UW. I think incentives are fine as long as they genuinely make you want the activity.

Dr H has recommended men with a high SF who need to show DS wash the dishes after/before sex (as an incentive) because they will start to get a positive association from it. Far from resenting it they will start to enjoy it. But its a fine line. The man who thinks he HAS to or truly hates the dishes won't stick with it.

He does need to communicate with you better. He needs to help you figure this out. However we can change our minds and then we have to renegotiate POJA. He may have realised what he asked of you PA wise was silly once you got into it.

His health issues are definitely affecting him. I don't know how anyone can feel sexy under those conditions! Job number one.

I've heard you also say he dislikes his job. Stress and unhappiness is like poison to our health and libido.

P90X is extreme, watch the videos online. Side note. I LOVE LOVE LOVE P90X. H and I did it last spring, it is a full body workout that promotes muscle confusion, I think it is hands down the best training program out there that you can buy and do from your own home. So, its not that I don't like, I love it, but it is very hard to do, for the most part because of TIME as it is about 1-1 1/2 hrs every day for 90 days, and theoretically, you wouldn't stop after 90 days. I still do it inconsistently (and also run sometimes) but I just don't like the pressure of having that hardcore body style at all times.

And he does know how difficult it is! He has the luxury of me not having PA be a high need of mine, so I think he's sexy regardless of him losing or gaining within a range of 50lbs, (after that it might change, don't know never had that happen, but I really could care other than I want him to be healthy).

Well that sweetening the pot was kindof what I was initially doing, cleaning a lot and doing the domestic things with the hopes that it would inspire him to have more SF. But then Indie said that was sacrificing. So I'm not really sure if I have a strong grip on the difference between the two.

Wasn't working anyway so I guess it doesn't matter

It has always been a tad bit of a power struggle. That's why I've called it the 'cat and mouse game' and the like. Problem is I haven't quite figured out the game after all these years, so I don't really know how to win.

Welcome writer1 and thanks for joining the ongoing SF convo

He does have a desire, just much less than me. He thinks less than other men in general. There def is a difference in drive. But I think there are a lot of other factors involved too, and, as a need of mine it just isn't met in general, so that is what I have been attempting to rectify.

But I am sorry to hear about your H's issues too, because I know how hard it can be to go without if it is a high need of yours. Particularly hard when you are dealing with things like ED, for both of you I'm sure.

Just the thought of it gives me the willies.

Has your H had his T-levels checked several times so you can see the range his levels fall into?

How open to MB is your H?

I know Indie mentioned job stress. This is something my H has also dealt with. He's going back to school right now so that he can eventually find a job that he is more satisfied with. Is you H open to changing jobs/career?

Incentives aren't sacrifices if you don't mind doing them. If you mind, its a sacrifice.

I was more like keeping the house clean for SF, if I could get away with JUST doing the dishes I would be overjoyed!

I hear what you are saying, I will have to think on this incentive thing.

(About to DJ here, I think) I think he really does want me to have an exceptionally fit body. This was not the first occasion that he has mentioned it, in some form or another. But, I also think, he is not exceptionally fit. When I am eating very clean, and working out every day, he feels guilt for not living that lifestyle, for not being so diligent. He feels pressured to do the same. I think he also misses having me making sweets, or going out for dinner and getting something really good and unhealthy. I think ultimately, he DOES want me to look a certain way, but he also does NOT want to have to feel guilt or pressured to do the same things I am. So given the context of when we have had these conversations, that would fit into my theory.

The answer really is for us to both just go hard core at this, if for any other reason to get him healthy, honestly. Guess I can try to start that on my own and inspire him to do it. I will miss my Mt Dew though.

There is really no fix to his health issues, thats the problem. Other than just overall health and fitness, sleep, nutrition and exercise. That can only help, but won't solve his health issues, he just has to manage those, for the most part. And I can't make him do the rest, only suggest it and maybe try and inspire it.

His job, well, he doesn't love it. We just had this conversation this week. I told him that if I thought it was his job making him unhappy, I would gladly tell him to quit. But since his unhappiness predates this job, and has been around our entire marriage for ALL of his jobs (some of which he has really liked), pre kids, post kids, living different places, etc. I think quitting his job would not fix it. He would just carry it to the next job, next house, etc. Ya know?

I'm confused about muscle confusion... as if each and every one my muscle fibers has a brain?

Fiber A: What is this contraction? It's the exact same way we contracted last week, but somehow different?

Fiber B: I don't know, I'm confused!

It's more "person working out isn't getting bored."


However, the P90X nutrition guide is awesome and spot on about caloric intake.

Ramp up your workout, and ramp up your calories to meet the new nutritional demand.

H had T levels checked twice now, both were in the normal range. I don't know about the first time but this last time they were about at 1/3 (1/3 of the range below, 2/3 above, so I guess that would mean the low end of normal range somewhat).

He is very open to MB. He def has the right attitude, it is the follow through on some of it that hasn't happened. But I am guilty of that too to some extent.

He is open to changing careers. Personally, I think he needs to find happiness first, then decide what he wants to do. If he is depressive, or just has that personality type to find fault in everything he sees, then he will just go through the effort and sacrifice to change careers and then find the fault in the new career, ya know?

He has ALWAYS talked about 'well this career might have been better' or 'maybe I should have done that' but I do chalk some of it up to the grass is greener syndrome. What do they say, you just need to start watering the grass at home? He did change career once, hated the next one more than the one he is in, and went back. He more dislikes the company he works for right now though than the actual career, but he just started in March and can't change companies for at least a full year. Then we can look at that option. He was happiest in his consulting role but that was 80% travel and that is out of the question, obviously. So IDK, his job is always a work in progress. He's changed jobs (not careers but employers) many times, liked some companies/roles and disliked others, but he still has been 'unhappy' in general. I think it is more than a job thing.

HHH are you a P90Xer? LOVE.

I'm not into the biology, but I know that it kicks my hiney and I am sore in a different spot every single day, and feel AWESOME when I am doing it hard core (except the soreness ).

I am NOT however sold on the ramping up the caloric intake. The first round of X I did it by the book, weighed and measured everything, it was a TON of food. I could barely eat it all. And, I didn't lose an ounce of weight. At the time I wanted to lose 10lbs maybe and I didn't lose a single pound (but I got buff). So if I start doing it every day again I am going to way decrease the caloric intake this time, just go clean eating and call it a day.

I think this might be worth looking into. We were told that being in the low range of normal, though technically "normal," could still affect drive and sexual performance. Even though my H is in the normal range too, his doctor still referred him to an endocrinologist for further testing. I can definitely understand follow-through issues though, since that was almost a year ago and my H still hasn't seen the specialist.

As far as follow-through with MB goes, have you considered signing up for the online program? If you can afford it, I would definitely do it. We're beyond broke, so it isn't an option for us, but I've heard nothing but good things from everyone else who has tried it. And you would get your own personal coach to keep you both on track.