A caveat: Intimate conversation is one of the four Intimate Emotional Needs. If you read Dr. Harley's more recent articles, he usually puts that word "intimate" in front of it to denote a special kind of conversation: radically honest conversation, talking about your hopes, dreams, desires, problems, and plans for the future.

You can meet the need for Conversation with lots of people. If you've had an affair, you probably should limit your Conversation with any members of the opposite sex, but nonetheless, it's not an Intimate Emotional Need. If you don't discuss your personal life -- i.e. professional conversations, banter about work, basics about your family but no discussion of challenges therein, etc. -- it's probably not Intimate Conversation.

Intimate Conversation, on the other hand, is very special conversation that you should primarily have with your spouse. If you're talking about your personal life, it's probably Intimate Conversation. Sharing how many children you have is probably not Intimate; sharing the challenges your third child has, and talking about how you are coping with them almost certainly is Intimate.

Another way of thinking about it is if you find the conversation deeply satisfying on a personal level, you probably just had an Intimate Conversation.

EDIT: Swapped "only" with "primarily" above. There are times & places for intimate conversations with those who are not your spouse. During the first year or two recovering from an affair is probably not such a time, with the exception of trusted same-sex ecclesiastical advisers or secular counselors.

DoNoMo, the person I was responding to gets her NEED for conversation met elsewhere because her husband is not interested and was advising UW to do the same.

We're not talking about every day, hum-drum conversations. It is not too uncommon for women to not have intimate conversation with their husbands, and then try to fill that void with conversations with girlfriends. This simply will not work.

Agreed; in fact, Jennifer Harley Chalmers cautioned my wife against exactly that (confiding in a close girlfriend) during recovery as it works against recovery.

My purpose was to clarify that there are two types of Conversation: Intimate, and non-Intimate. Intimate is reserved for your spouse and -- perhaps -- close spiritual or secular counselors.

Uh oh. I'm in big trouble then. I do this all the time!

It is not too uncommon for women to not have intimate conversation with their husbands, and then try to fill that void with conversations with girlfriends. This simply will not work.

Expand on that, please.

I don't know if you see it where you live, but in our area, the common wisdom about marriage seems to be that love (the feeling) peters out after a couple years, and after that your job is to coexist faithfully. Prisca and I have heard this taught from the pulpit at multiple churches, by people who are absolutely convinced this idea comes from God. (Personally I think it's Buddhism. )

The really mature Christians are supposedly the ones who don't expect any of that childish romantic love stuff and instead learn to suppress their desires or meet them in other ways. One way this plays out is lots of homosocial activities. i.e., men go hunting, women go quilting, men need guy friends and guy time, women need girls' nights out. And women talk amongst themselves and the older "wiser" ladies tell the younger ones when they are disappointed with their husbands that rather than being a Buyer and trying to fix the problem, they should just get their need met elsewhere, like with girl friends.

The approach has the appearance of preventing affairs, but it makes for a lot of depressed wives. This is the kind of advice Prisca got early in our marriage, and it led to a situation where she felt she had no right to expect me to continue to be the loving companion and confidante I had been in our dating days.

UW, a thought on your "jealousy". Sometimes, I have seen that a spouse will often "jealous" behaviour when their spouse has poor boundaries around members of the opposite sex. I don't know that this happens on a conscious level, but more that the spouse "sees" the poor boundaries, and not knowing what to label them, will instead see the other person as a rival to them and hence the "jealousy" pops up. I actually recently discussed this with a friend of mine who worries that one of her neighbours is at risk of becoming an OM, and his wife exhibits jealous tendencies. Her H has VERY weak boundaries around women, hence her insecurities and jealous behaviour. Just a thought.

Never mind.

If you and your wife can sit through sermons in which it is preached that over time husbands and wives should expect to, and agree to, become less involved in their critical marital interactions, without jumping up and screaming, "That's [censored]!", (or at least leaving in disgust, never to return) I guess we would differ markedly on what is acceptable.

Her quote was, "This (dis-involvement) simply will not work!", and your response is that it is being PREACHED, to your presence, without protest, thereby signalling your tacit acceptance.

WTF?

Well, shouting out certain words like that in our church isn't considered appropriate.

We do quietly make our opinions known, and are hoping to have an influence through example.

And force of numbers. Remember, we have six kids.

Obviously you go to different churches. It would be looked at with askance in my church, too. How dull, how pedestrian, how plebian, how provincial are our houses of worship.

tl

I meant lower level on an individual scale - I understand it is a EN. And, my H does meet the need - but isn't a top need for me from him - and so, talking with friends and family also meets the need for conversation. However, when I wrote this post I was not referring to intimate conversation. OF COURSE one's spouse should meet that need.

And at the time, I was using it as an example.

well, all this talk of T levels and SF. i have often wondered how high my T levels are. many of my personal traits are definitely more "masculine," such as the importance of high achievement in a career, how i make decisions, and the like. i once took a test along the lines of "are you more masculine or feminine" and scored off the charts for masculinity!

i truly wonder how "rare" a high SF need in women is if there are at least 4 of us on this thread alone! in my copy of HNHN, the margins of the "why he needs sex" section is marked up with comments like "uhmm hrmmmmm" and "yeah, right!" SF is not my #1 at this time, but definitely #2! i have never, not once, been in a relationship with a man who could keep up. and i have always, *always* hated reading about how men are so sex-driven and women can take it or leave it. those kinds of articles have no bearing in the reality of my life at all, and frankly, peeve me off big time!

sunny made a really good post about sf & your H, UW. and it sounds like you're making some progress with RH, which is very good. i hope things continue improving for you, without the need to resort to plastic surgery!

Ditto, even if it is true for some people it's highly irritating when it's referred to as a universal truth. I can think of five people in RL who feel the same way.

Thank you to everyone for your posts about IC. Its nice to be talking about something other than SF for once...

I don't really have IC with anyone, other than H and we don't really talk INTIMATELY that often, because I guess I don't really like or need to talk about my feelings all the time.

Just write about them, apparently.

Markos, I think that is the general concensus for many people. Since becoming familiar with the MB way, I am so perceptive of how many people who are happily married are really failing at M, but rather just 'sticking it out.'

I remember my H's dad giving him advice when he started dating me, saying that eventually the lust is gone and then you are just business partners so to speak. (It was a conversation where he was trying to talk H into breaking up with me, lol). Maybe its the voice of the older generation? The 'younger' generation seems to be more concerned with being happy all the time, personal sanctification and instant gratification above all else.

Not really sure which generation I fall into, in age anyway.

H has air tight boundaries NOW, but even before MB days he had fairly tight boundaries. Certainly tighter than mine. He is not a flirt, does not outwardly lust after women, is not proactive about getting another woman's attention. His ONS was passed out in a hotel room where a woman took her clothes off and, well, climbed on (for the first round, not trying to take the blame away from him here). His OW#2 was with a highly predatorial woman(I know her) who pursued him and he willingly went along with it, if it were with anyone else it wouldn't have gone in that direction I don't think. There were other instances throughout our M, EA's, etc. where he might have been more the proactive participant, IDK, but for the most part it is not his personality. He has never had female 'friends' who he hung out, had lunch with, texted, called, etc. I would have NEVER allowed that. His breakdowns were in his traveling job and other boundary issues, and just not being in love with me. So his lack of boundaries don't cause the jealousy.

That being said, I am more possessive and jealous now that I was in the past. I never really cared or noticed if another woman seemed attracted to him, but NOW I am very in tune to those type of things and far more vigilant, I guess. I'm sure that is insecurity due to the A's.

So I agree, I have seen that. For me I think it is more of a hormonal combination like Indie said, the one that makes me act more like a boy you know...lol. The same thing that gives me such a high need for SF also makes me competitive, like more manly sports, and be possessive and territorial of my man. I really do look very much like a woman though, I swear. No extra body hair or anything.

Regarding SF...how did we get back on that topic??? Did I mention that we realized while doing our homework that we had different versions of Dr Harley's HNHN book? I had a printed version, and the chapter on SF had little to nothing in it about how this was 'in general' but it could be reversed (ie women could be the one with the high SF need). I was annoyed at the whole chapter, since it is my #1 it did not apply to me. I thought H, who had the online version, was just a VERY slow reader, but then found out that his version was a much more updated one and did have several things in there stating that women could have the higher need for SF (and was longer, thus, the slower reading time). Guess that was a learning curve for Dr H!

I had a really crabby day yesterday.

Some days I just get overwhelmed with the feeling that I am failing in life. I am intellegent and have a great business sense, was planning to go to law school, and instead I am a SAHM. Now I am not saying that is BAD, just that I would have been a great lawyer, or some other profession, but I SUCK as a SAHM. I really do. I am not the 'have it all together' mom who takes her kids to the library every week, reads to them every night, has craft hour or playdates. I don't keep a beautifully clean house, I barely keep up on the laundry. I don't have wonderful meals on the table every night. I have some form of ADHD in the house I swear, I spend my days chasing my tail in an attempt to get it together and be organized but it never seems to work itself out. I'm not saying I am a bad woman, just a bad SAHM, and many parts of me wishes I had never agreed to the decision to be one!

My kids are sweet kids, but they are selfish kids, afterall. They are used to mom doing everything for them, so they are much more prone to complain about something not being done than to thank me for what I did do. Hopefully someday that will change.

And my marriage has gone to hell in a handbasket. This is one thing I always thought would be good. Because for most of my married life H has been #1. I have been admiring and affectionate, very passionate about him, intimately passionate with him. I guess I thought that was enough. I have so many friends who are very neglectful of their spouses intimate needs, and I never have been, so I wonder how MY relationship got in this predicament?

IDK some days its hard to see where I have had success in life, you know? I don't get pats on the back, great work reviews, salary increases. I don't get anything to show me that I have done something RIGHT.

So that has nothing to do with MB, just my own woe is me I had a hard day yesterday discussion. How it pertains to MB is coming. I kindof complained to H on the way home. He isn't good about picking me up on these kind of days. Instead they usually irritate him. DJ coming: I think in my head he feels like he works hard all day so I can have a nice life at home, why can't I just be happy to have the opportunity? DJ end. Anyway he comes home very upset, AO's left and right, totally withdraws from me which is a HUGE LB for me, I hate him withdrawing. I just want him to come home and be the sunshine, you know? I can't have that title EVERY day, the glue that holds things together, aren't I allowed to have a bad day sometimes and have HIM come home and be the ray of light? Well he did the opposite. Came home and said 'we are going for a hike.' Nobody wanted to go. I didn't really even want to go, even though he thought he was trying to help me by getting me out of the house, he was doing what HE thought would help and not asking me what I thought would help. When everyone said they didn't want to go, AO AO AO. Then he just ignored everyone for most of the night. So I had a bad day, then had to take care of everyone last night, too. But around 10:15 when my daughter asked if I would read to her and I said 'not tonight' (clearly she knew I was having a rough one), and she gave me that 'you are a horrible mom and you NEVER do anything for me' look, I had had it. I left the house to get away from it all.

OK here's where it is relative to MB, in a small way. Normally, over the last 2+ yrs, I would have left and had a meltdown. Even though I would have been stressed about normal life, my brain would have gone not to the frustrations of being a SAHM, but to the white elephant in the room, the A's and the devastation and the pain from those. Instead of just getting away for a couple minutes, I would have spent an hour sobbing in the car, feeling the pain of the A all over again.

I waited for that to happen. It didn't. I couldn't really even think about the A, or feel that pain anymore. Is that a good thing? I just didn't care about it in the way I used to. Bizarre. How many times did I think I would feel that gut wrenching pain every day for the rest of my life, and now, when I was in the perfect moment to, I couldn't even muster it up. Not that I was trying, just expecting to.

I guess that is progress.

When I got back H told me he goes into a depressive state when I am upset. He feels like our whole family is unhappy and it is his fault. We have had a few convo's about this lately, how he was in a bad place since DDay, how depressed he truly was, what a bad place he was in. Guess I was too caught up in my own pain to even notice, or care.

Sometimes its hard to remember what you are fighting for, you know.

This isn't true. I was speaking of exactly what Door responded to. Perhaps I used the word "need" loosely where it was taken more dogmatically. I never said my H did not or was not interested in, meeting my need for intimate conversation!

It's important to me that this is cleared up because that was a lot of speculation there, or miscommunication.

Sorry to keep coming back to this - but this was NOT what I was speaking of when I suggested that UW have friends and whatnot.

My friendships with other women ENHANCE my marriage - as I surround myself with like-minded people. We speak highly of our husbands. In my ladies group at church, for instance, it would NEVER be suggested that you just "deal with" a subpar marriage. My church is very proactive in this area.

As for my non-church friends, yes, they also meet needs - but - they are not a replacement for my husband. He's at work all day and gets certain needs met there that supplement my need-meeting... nothing wrong with that. He goes to lunch with a couple of guys virtually every day. They talk about engineer stuff that I know nothing about. He couldn't care less that I know it - so long as I talk to him about his day in other ways.

So, my need for conversation - about girlie stuff that H doesn't really care about - is met by my friends. Likewise, I like having discussions about my course work with classmates (of the same sex, of course).

I stand by my suggestion to UW. A SAHM needs people too. As long as those people are supportive of good marriage principles and not a replacement for H being the primary need-meeter or recreational companion, it is a good thing. I get great ideas on how to enhance my marriage all the time by my friends. And, if someone does complain about their husband, I make sure to address it in a MB positive way.

UW, I'm sorry that it is harder for you in this area. I am weird in that I am a tomboy who can also be very girlie. I love makeup and fashion - but I also like "dirty" lol stuff. I love football (and other sports) and rolling in the grass with our german shepherds.... I LOVED when H took me to the shooting range. My daughter is the same way. She is a cheerleader and sorority girl, but is very athletic and rock climbs - and all that stuff. It's getting a lot more common for girls to be able to be "strong" and still considered feminine, thankfully.

Maybe you just need to brainstorm a bit on this issue. ???

Of course... we're all here for you - as cyber friends.

UW...

I have had days EXACTLY like you just described. Days where I felt misunderstood, taken for granted, wondering "why me" (as to my marriage) when I thought I'd done so many things right...feeling inadequate as a SAHM... needing something different from H than what he offered as support... all of it.

I tell you this to give you hope. It CAN get better...as long as you have a spouse who is willing to stick with the program and wants to meet your needs.

I've learned I have to tell my H exact specifications on what I need him to do and say in my "moments" and what I need him to NOT do and say in those moments. The key for us has been to have those discussion during times we are both happy and content - not during the moment. I describe to him how it makes me feel when he does or says things that are not productive in lifting me up. I tell him what I need from him instead.

I think a key part of dealing with this is respect. You mentioned DJs...and you're right to consider them. Your H also needs to consider them. As H and I discussed, it is a DJ on his part to think that my feelings (of exasperation or whatever in those "moments") are wrong/not important/uncalled for... you name it. It was a breakthrough for us when he was able to realize that feelings are personal; to quit expecting ME to feel how HE would feel under certain circumstances. For my part, I had to recognize that maybe my feelings weren't always "right." For instance, if I felt unloved that didn't mean I WAS unloved. However, I DID feel it so I needed something to turn that feeling around.

Through POJA H and I were able to brainstorm some solutions. It was frustrating us both that I wasn't getting any relief in these down moments and he felt he was doing what was right but wasn't. He had to be willing to do what I needed, of course, and not just what he thought *should* be done. He, like most males, is big on fixing stuff and I didn't want to be fixed! lol I needed a shoulder. I let him know how I needed him to take care of me in those times - even though I am usually pretty independent and tough. Now, we have joking moments. If he finds me exasperated, he says, "Are you needing to vent or do you want me to offer a solution?" If I say vent - he will sometimes even get me laughing as he starts spouting off with me. It's quite funny. Before, if I was spouting off he'd just argue the other side and it would make me MAD! lol

When hormones kick in monthly, I am esp. prone to feeling overwhelmed or sad - and not always with good reason, I'll admit. It used to be that H would try to pick me up by telling me all the reasons I shouldn't feel that way. It made it worse. Now, he knows to just make me stop whatever I'm doing, and he hugs me and holds me for as long as it takes for me to feel better. In doing so, I know I am not alone - that I have a life partner to share my burdens with and vice versa. It doesn't usually take long either. (And, I might add, always leads to some good SF!)

Since changing the ways we handle these scenarios, I've seen a real dynamic shift in our relationship. By being my go-to guy, H now seems to feel more manly - wanting to take care of his girl. He gets a big boost of admiration from being my knight in shining armor rather than "disappointing" me as you used to feel. This is MUCH better than him feeling he couldn't do anything right!

On my end, I've become more reasonable in my thinking when I have those days/moments. Because I know I can rely on my H to be there for me, I can dismiss things more quickly and more easily that used to seem more daunting.

Win Win. Big love bank deposits for both of us!

I know there is a lot more to address from your post - but I seem to be very long-winded lately! Plus, I really think the crux of your day is in this dynamic.

Back to the jealousy issue - I DO think we are more sensitive to matters after our spouse has had an A. It's only natural. On things like that, time - as well as protective walls around your marriage - are the only answer. As for you wanting him to be jealous, I get that too - I really do. Some things come down to personality type, I believe. Having said that, the MB program is designed to overcome those types and getting your needs met from your spouse despite being different personality types. You just have to come up with practical ways he can meet that need that you both agree on. Maybe he needs to learn to be more verbal about his appreciation of you.

As for SF - again, lol - I think that at times, when other, surrounding issues get fixed, SF naturally gets better. And yeah - you are NOT alone. I may not be as HD as you, but I've always been pretty HD! Fortunately, it has not been a problem in our marriage. It's very rare that H or I turn each other down when one of us initiates. I think I'd feel pretty rejected if it happened often - which would make me insecure. (Which might then turn into feelings of jealousy - or wanting H to be more jealous, at least demonstrating some desire for me.) Hmmmm....

Enough from me!

I wish I'd read through all the posts of the last day before responding. Now you've got like 4 posts from me within the last hour. LOL