Wait...what am I doing over and over?

I have to figure out this balance. The last few days have seen a COLD Unwritten, which is NOT what H wants for sure. Its like I have an ON/OFF button, my ON is full on, my off is full off. H has said he feels like I am being distant, non affectionate, etc. but really I am just trying to contain myself sometimes.

I second guess everything right now though. I feel like I don't have a comprehension of what 'too much' is sometimes. Like I often send H...ahem...photos, to his phone while he is working. He has always seemed to REALLY like this. Today I almost sent one and then thought hrm...too forward? too needy? IDK it seems like he really likes it when I do that but there's that cat and mouse game too. Or is that a good 'teaser'?

My attitude has been BAD for the last week, I feel overwhelmed. With this SF issue we have, along with just feeling like I thought I was doing so well and now feel like I am just screwing this all up and don't even know it. But right now I just feel like I need to keep plugging along. Keep working the program, keep attempting to meet his needs, keep trying to do what I can. I can only do what I can, ya know? For instance with PA, I can only ASK what he would like from me, and try to adhere to it (if I am enthusiastic...). I like working out, feels good so I will do it enthusiastically. I might even do plastic surgery. If he finds fault in PA after all that, well, I did what I can do. When it comes to meeting needs, normally it is things that BETTER ourselves. Such as, keep a cleaner house, get in shape, whatever. What is the worst case scenario? I invest 100% into meeting these needs and at the end it is not enough, or he does not invest back, or this recovery does not happen. Then, I move on but only really fit with a really clean house...

Hrm. Very interesting first paragraph. Makes a great deal of sense with regards to some of the things he says.

Neither H or myself are people pleasers, I don't think!

And I would SUCK at Plan A. Honestly, I read the Plan A threads and I don't even know what to say, because I could never, ever in a million trillion yrs contain my anger enough to keep bodies out of the river. Play nice when there is another person on the side? Nope. Not saying it is WRONG, it is admirable and brave and courageous and anyone who can pull that off for any length of time should be given a medal, just saying I could never do it. But then, I have been known to say "I would never..." before too, guess you just never know what you are capable of until called upon.

Ah*haha! You dont play nice in Plan A! You tease and confuse and bribe the wayward brain and get tough! It's amazing! But very tough, yeah.
I am the Queen of angry outbursts but once it was explained to me as a warlike tactic (see sig) I got CALM.

I think you could easily have done it. Recovery is not for the fainthearted either and your intelligence does really shine through on this thread you know.

In fact recovery I would say (guessing) is harder because you put down your shield and have to trust enough to reconnect. Three weeks of war tactics is nothing compared to that.

You're close on this POJA thing, I think - I can hear you considering each others POV more and I think you're really really close.

On the "over and over" thing I just meant that if you have talked about this stuff with him a lot lately to no avail, it may be time to regroup and redirect.



As for the other, I understand what you're saying: you try hard to do things "right" and then, when it doesn't produce the results you want, you go cold - out of exasperation, no doubt.

SO...it's time to maybe try doing things differently.

Unwritten,

I think getting some coaching on this from the counseling center would be a very good idea. At the very least, maybe you could consider emailing the radio show and getting on air for a direct, and free, chat with the Harleys. They seem pretty good at teasing out details.

Email your questions to Joyce Harley at mbradio@marriagebuilders.com

Unwritten, I just want you to know you are not alone. Almost everything you've described in your thread about your drive and feelings of rejection are spot on for me, and I often feel out of place reading the material and the advice on the board because I'm the outlier/exception that proves the rule. But it just doesn't apply to me and our situation. Makes me feel worse reading about how men want sex/sex/sex ... except not in our house, compounded by the fact that I do and often.

Obviously no advice, but know you're not the only one.

Ditto Unwritten, if you're a freak so am I! I do seem to differ a LOT from my girlfriends when we're talking about SF, but it's not unfeminine, just slightly rare. It may only be my number 3 need as opposed to top, but your drive sounds about the same as mine tbh. Based purely on the act and not the romance that comes with it sometimes. It just means you have a lot of energy, are healthy and you are lucky enough to be able to tune in and enjoy it without necessarily needing it to be part of a huge romatic event imo.

Thank you Indie for saying I sound intelligent...

Thank you everyone for your replies that I am not alone. I really often FEEL alone on this topic. Maybe I will write the show, if it would apply to others. I don't like to use up show time on something that only applies to me, you know?

Here's a good clip.
Radio clip on the importance of sex

Does your H like to listen to the clips?

Last week H and I had a nice date night. We talked about many of the things in regards to this thread, which he had read almost in its entirety.

In regards to SF. Turns out H's ego regarding SF is only hurt in one area, not all areas. There are many things he does very well, and he knows it. So we will just have to work on the one area.

He is himself wondering if there is a problem with his T levels. He says he has always felt that way, because he doesn't oogle over girls the same way his same age friends do. He has had the levels chked and they were in a normal range, but we did not 'see' the results so does that mean the low end of the normal range? He is going to get an appt to get them chked again, so we can see where on the range he is.

He has also been researching things that can affect sex drive. Turns out all of the things that affect it negatively he does. High stress environment=chk. Not getting 8 hrs of sleep a night=chk. Not eating healthy of exercising regularly=chk. He is working to change all of these things, and is also going to look into taking natural supplements that can affect sex drive.

We had a frank conversation about his drive vs. my drive. He said if left with no demands (which he confirmed that I am VERY demanding about SF, hrm) he would only want to 2-3 times a week. I told him that the drive he has when he has not had SF for a month, is how I feel EVERY DAY. He said that is mind boggling. OK some days are worse than others, there is never a day I don't think about it but some days I honestly think about it non stop, like when your stomach is growling and all you can focus on is when you are going to eat again. At least he has a better understanding of what 'drives' me perhaps. But still doesn't solve the fact that we are so different in drive.

Since I have always handed out OS like candy, and loved quickies (if I had my way there would be 1 quickie and one more substantial SF experience per day), we have had many of those occurrences in the past. But I told him I thought we should cut down or eliminate those occurrences because, if I'm going to only have SF 2-3 times a week I would rather have something more substantial (and where there is something in it for me, ya know what I mean). He did NOT like this at all! He did not want to give these things up, and said he would rather just wait and see what he could do on his end to increase drive rather than go to those extreme measures right away. So at least I know he enjoys these things.

As for me, I am working hard to not be so demanding. Yes I have to question everything I do. I am trying to be sexy and coy, instead of grab his a$$ and tell him I want to (fill in the blank) him. After date night we went through the car wash. I had a shirt on with some nice cleavage. While he was washing the windows I was tempted to flash him...but instead I just made sure as much cleavage was showing as possible without a wardrobe malfunction and then pretended I wasn't paying attention to him. He didn't notice until he got back into the car and then he did comment on the cleavage, to which I just smiled. Then when we went through the car wash, I was tempted to ask him if we could do it in the car wash. Now this is something I know he would say no to, he isn't quite as interested in crazy, risky SF where we could possibly get caught as I am lol. But normally I would have suggested it anyway. I didn't, instead I said, 'can we kiss in the car wash?' and we did, and it was grand. But later he said he knew I was really wanting to do it in the car wash, lol. I wonder if they have video cameras in there...hrm.

SF=work in progress.

I also went shopping and bought some new clothes. I hate shopping, so that is notable.

Had a busy weekend and did not work out so now I have to hammer this week, maybe 2 workouts a day. Holy mackeral I'm going to be sore.

Here's a weird thing.

During the trickle truth stage I experienced a lot of stress related health problems. I never get headaches, but had stress headaches every day for several months. I had hair falling out. I picked up this weird thing where I started to get cold very easily. I have always been 'warm blooded' and hardly ever get cold, all of a sudden I got so cold at the drop of a hat and then couldn't warm up again. I researched it online, what could cause this, and one of the reasons was stress. Once I knew that I realized that whenever we were fighting or I was getting trickle truthed or whatever at that moment, I would all of a sudden start shaking, like my body temp dropped, so it was definitely stress related. Also I had pain during SF for awhile. I went to the gyn about it and she told me that nothing was wrong, perhaps it was stress related and I was tensing up during SF. I realized it started when I found out about his A with OW#2, and decided that was exactly what was going on.

Anyway, those things have all dissipated over time. But all of a sudden in the last month I am getting some of these stress related things again, like the headaches. And I am having stress dreams almost every night.

My stress dreams are almost always now that I am cheating on H. I had a dream that I met with a friend from HS at our favorite restaurant and lied to H about it, and was all stressed I was going to get caught.

Now I write here as a BS but I am also a WS. I had piss poor boundaries for a long long time in this M, and didn't even know it. I have had male friends the entire time I have been married, and have consistently gotten my needs for admiration, affection, IC, RC...other than SF pretty much all other needs were filled by other men at one point or another. I struggle now with wondering if all of my friendships were EA's even if there was nothing sexual in them, you know? I mean by definition they were, but I didn't think about it this way, if anything ever turned to 'I have feelings for you' or any sexual talk or anything, I went NC with the person lickity split. I also had RA's during the trickle truth time, and I am not proud of that. I felt like because I did not have sex with anyone else I was still not stooping to H's level, but at the end of the day an A is an A. In any case, I still struggle with having the urge to contact other men sometimes, not in any sexual way because I always knew that was wrong. But in a friendly friendship way. I basically went NC with people who were friends and nothing more, once I realized there was such a thing as EN's and boundaries around them. But I still sometimes have the thought run through my brain that I should contact this person or that person and see how they are doing, and that it is no big deal, because for many yrs it wasn't ya know? Or it was I didn't realize it was, you understand what I am saying. Almost like it is a bad habit to overcome. And then I quickly rethink it and remember that it IS a big deal and H would not be happy with that and I do not want to do anything to make H unhappy or cause him harm. But anyway, my stress dreams are simply that I call one person or another, and 'forget' more or less that I am not supposed to do that anymore. Or just disregard that and give in to the old habit ideas of 'its no big deal' and do it and then feel guilt and have to tell H about it, etc. That's my stress dream.

Why am I all of a sudden having these stress situations again?

Also this.
The Critical Importance of Undivided Attention

Sounds like the SF talk was a positive, even if still a work in progress. Steps forward are better than standing still or going backwards. Although, it's interesting to me that H didn't want to give up his easy pickings - where there isn't "mutuality." Hmmm. Usually there is nothing wrong with one-sided things if you are enthusiastic about it, but not at the expense of mutual satisfying experiences!

As for the shopping, I hear ya. I don't know what it is these days but I can't stand to shop for very long; used to love to shop when I was younger! Although, it tends to go in spurts or if I have someone to shop with. If I have DD20 home and we're shopping and lunching, it's more of an event than just shopping - and a lot more fun. Sometimes H will go shopping with me and that's fun too; I like it when he picks out stuff he likes for me.

Kudos on the more use of "coyness" lol.

As for the dreams - that is interesting that you are having those dreams now. I was going to ask you if your H was fully aware of off the attention you sought from other men, but obviously he is if you posted it on your thread here knowing he reads it.

Hmmm.

Stress isn't always a negative, you know. Often times I find that when H and I have an issue brought to light it is, indeed, stress-inducing. However, the alternative is to ignore it or bury it. That's how we used to deal with things - not good! So, yes: it is stressful to deal with problems but it is also a positive because you're finding ways to cope. Just what comes to mind at the moment.

Ya I know, it goes to that 'looking for the easy thing' theory doesn't it? He just said he doesn't want to give up all the variety, which I understand, because I am a sucker for variety and putting on a show.

As far as H's awareness. Well, yes and no. I was always O&H about people I had friendships with, conversations I had, he has PW's for all my email, facebook and phone, etc, and I never hid conversations from him or anything until the RA's (although I also knew he never checked up on me in any way).

When it came to seeing people in person I would ask H if he minded, and he would always say no. I think deep down I knew it wasn't good to go out for drinks with another guy or something, you now? I had a guy friend pre M that came into town after we were married and I asked H if he would mind if we went out for dinner, he said nope, no problem. I went to dinner with this man and as we sat in a dark restaurant sipping wine by candlelight I kept thinking, what if someone sees me? They will think I am having an A!!! H knew I was there and had no problem with it, and afterall this was just a 'friend,' but it still felt really wrong! Over time those interactions with other men became easier though. The less H seemed to care the less of a big deal it seemed to be, to me.

I had an ex bf who I dated for 1 1/2 yrs before H. He pined after me right up until the week of my wedding, at which point I told him I was getting married and he needed to stop calling me. Well about 6 yrs into our M a mutual friend invited us both out to lunch. IDK why she thought that a good idea... I asked H if he would mind thinking he would say YES I mind (this was the one ex bf he compares himself too and has a major issue with), he was like, that's cool no problem! I was smart enough to cancel the lunch, but I did maintain a friendship (openly) with this ex bf until about page 15 of this thread so... One time this ex bf asked me if he should call/text when H was home and I was like, why would that matter? He thought it was VERY odd that H didn't seem to care at all that we were friends.

Now some people don't like jealousy, but I do. It makes me feel cared for and taken care of, don't know what EN that falls into. So half of the time I 'asked' H about things it was because I WANTED him to say HE11 NO you aren't going out with this guy or that guy! He never did show any jealousy and now he says it is because he had these things going on the side and felt he had no right too, even though things really did bother him. I wanted him to lay down the law with me and show some possession!

I think I am worried that I will fall into bad habits and fall off the wagon so to speak, contacting one of these 'friends.' Yes I did tell H about these dreams and the fact that I sometimes feel like I want to contact a male 'friend' and he said he is concerned. All I have ever wanted is H, I'm not saying I don't care about any male friends but I now realize a lot of it was getting my needs met by them, and I would MUCH rather get them met by H. But I guess when H isn't meeting those needs it is hard not to want to revert to the old methods, ya know?

I'm sure that will illicit some 2x4's as that is my waywardness I didn't know existed until now, just being honest that I have the thoughts.

I struggle now with wondering if all of my friendships were EA's even if there was nothing sexual in them...

What's done is done, so I'd advise you to spend ZERO time dissecting what you might or might not have done in the past before becoming familiar with the principles here, and put that time to practicing and implementing those principles. You've actually come a long way since the "What to do? What to do?" essences of your first posts, UW, so you probably just need to keep focused on EAOTP.

As for future friendships and interactions, it really is an easy tactic to envision every discussion, every electronic communication, every look and glance, between yourself and another male as being taped and played for your DH's review. If the content would bother him, (or bother YOU if he were the male in the video with some other female) you should not do it.

When the stress feelings start to arise again about what may have happened in past instances, you need to tell yourself, "No more; I'm smarter than that now!" and be done with it.

Dr. Harley's definition of an EA is if two people share their feelings of attraction to one another. Was just on the radio show last Thursday or Friday, IIRC.

If one shares feelings and the other demurs? Not an EA. But the moment you both admit attraction for each other, that's an incredibly powerful Love Bank deposit all around and usually marks when the affair started.

But the technical definition of an EA really doesn't matter. The real question is "would my spouse be disappointed or upset in my behavior?" And the answer in most cases -- if you are sharing intimate information about your marriage and spending time alone with members of the opposite sex -- is almost certainly "yes". In fact, my wife told me a few years ago that she resents it when I'm complimentary toward the appearance of other women, period. Therefore, I avoid giving compliments to women regarding their appearance in any way.

Emotional needs & reactions aren't rational.

Unwritten, I wanted to thank you for your post on kiss's thread. You verbalized what is in my head and heart and I teared up over seeing it written so well. You totally understand where I am at right now.

Bless you, my friend
~RQ

This all sounds very healthy to me. The more aware you become of your boundaries, the more paranoid you get about sticking to them (and paranoia is appropriate, knowing as we all do, that a part of us doesnt really want to).

The facts is you enjoy attention and care and friendship from other people. We ALL do. That's why Dr H says we are all wired for A's.

In exactly the same way that I would eat chocolate cake for every meal if I didnt know about calories!

Being aware of the fact we ENJOY care from others makes you stronger, not weaker.

I am the same, because I have a high admiration need. It's understood when you get married that you cant be sexual with the OS, but it's not clear that simply being a friend can be a danger.

I LOVE admiration. Early in my marriage I had piss poor boundaries too and I created a few crushes by meeting male friends' needs for affection, IC, etc...Of course I wanted to be admired really.

I was able to shrug off a few pushy attempts, because I don't like pushiness and that was easy to dodge, (I suppose the SD was a lovebuster that protected me) In that sitch, I didn't feel my own weakness or feel like I was doing anything wrong. But one friend was very passive and made it clear he liked me without doing anything pushy or even speaking up.

I was in real danger then! I developed a crush of my own. That's when I decided my feelings were my own fault for 'being vain' (having a high admiration need) and I created boundaries to prevent it happening again.

During that creation of boundaries time - I got paranoid about how flirty I was being or wasn't. Was I being cold to people? Did I come across as easy? That paranoid feeling is key, because you are assessing the new you against the old 'it doesn't matter' you. It feels strange at first.

As a BW who was separated in Plan B, I needed brand new and SKY high boundaries, and I would get stressed about how well I was doing and I've seen others on here do the same. They invite 2x4s like you did because they want to do well.

The paranoia and stress helps you create boundaries, IMO.

At first, my 'overreaction' to a male co-worker messaging me on FB at 11pm seemed like paranoia. The old me wouldnt have worried. But then I discovered he was wayward and he was after me.

So I think this all sounds normal. A part of the process of building new boundaries.

Excellent SF discussion, btw. I think you two are getting closer all the time.