Yes, have read it a handful of times but thanks for the link.

I would say that RH plays a role in the fact that I can't always pinpoint what it is H really WANTS sometimes. He will say things verbatim, and even when I ask very specific questions to clarify, but then later change to something else and say I 'misunderstood.' I often feel like he is honest on the onset about what he wants (for instance, P90X fitness and a thin frame), but then when I start to obsess about getting that he backtracks and says thats not what he really meant. Like he is honest but if it makes me feel bad, he backtracks on what his real desire is to 'protect me' in some way. But I am DJing that, I guess I just don't always know what to do when he switches around what he says, how to take that.

The one book of Harley's I don't own and haven't read. Although I've been meaning to!

This was very interesting. I think I've read it before but this time I read most of the thread, and sometimes I read things and they don't resonate as much until I reread them in accordance with an issue I am having.

I guess the answer is POJA. POJA is a work in progress for us.

One difficult thing I have encountered is nature's way of wanting to pull you back into your old dynamics. Our old dynamic is me the giver and H the taker. I am naturally (personality wise) a giver, and also I am laid back. H is naturally the opposite. So in our history I have always sacrificed, because most of the time I just want to make him happy! And also most of the time, I don't really care all that much about the details. I am laid back and flexible. For instance, if he wanted chinese and I wanted mexican I would probably just give in, because I really don't care that much about what I eat. I can be happy eating either, even if I preferred one more than the other. So we fall victim to this dynamic of me being the giver and him the taker, without even realizing it.

There are many negative dynamics that we have gotten accostumed to, but that is definitely one.

It is hard to POJA! I guess I feel like if I POJA things like PA, for instance, H will still not be happy at the end. If he wants me to weigh 130 and I want to weigh 150 and we settle on 140, that doesn't mean he is attracted to 140. If he likes short hair and I like long hair and I have medium hair, that doesn't mean he is attracted to medium hair. You get the drift.

I disagree, I don't think anyone can learn this. Its the equivalant of saying anyone can learn to be a mechanic. Although it might be true that anyone, if they studied hard enough, could learn the anatomy of a car, that doesn't mean everyone is mechanical.

My daughter, who is a little fashionista, is addicted to all of the fashion shows. What Not To Wear, etc. I watch them. Seems like torture to shop in NY for a couple days. And the money spent on clothes blows my MIND. I do watch these with her, I understand the 'theories' behind what to wear or not wear, I just have no interest in it what.so.ever. Ya know? It is WORK to shop, shop, shop, try things on, shop some more, put together outfits, primp in front of a mirror...It would be torture for me to have to do this on a regular basis. Last time I went to a store I was in desperate need of jeans. I walked in, told the first sales clerk that approached me, "I need jeans, here's my size, make sure they are LONG (I am 5'10), I'll be in dressing room #2." She brought me jeans, I picked what I liked, paid and left. Didn't even look at the rest of the clothes in the store. And even that was painful.

Course that was jean shopping and jean shopping sucks. BTW it was trendy jeans in a trendy clothing store. Of course, I wear them under my carhartts to do chores I'm such a nerd.

Interesting quote CP, that you would respect a woman's INSECURITY. Elaborate further on that.


I don't think looks make a man. But I guess that depends on who you are and what you are looking for. PA is not a big need of mine, I have always been more attracted to other things first.


Well said, but there is STILL that little thing called PA which is a top need for some (including my H). So in that case, it is important.

IG you need to fly over here and dress me. I will give you money and sizes and you can go personal shop for me and just put the outfits together in my closet. And then I will slap my carhartts over them and away I'll go...

See I'm not shooting for a 'look.' I just want to be comfortable.

Oh I did recently do this. I will do some shopping online, rather than go to stores, less pain... Anyway I created a shopping cart at one of my favorite stores, and then told H to look at it and pick out his favorites and order them. I thought that would be a nice little kinda POJA thing, I chose my favorites, he could go through those and pick the ones he likes, then order. He did too. But he has never done it. I have also suggested us shopping together for our date night to pick out clothes, but he has never wanted to do that either. So I do try to involve him in the process...

I don't know anything about Chanel clothes. Sounds expensive. Frankly, we have money. It just PAINS me to spend it on clothes.

So, as I stated in a previous response, the hard thing for me is that I do feel like when you POJA/negotiate, nobody will be completely happy with the result. The previous example I gave was PA related, since that is a high need of H. If he wants me to be one weight and I want to be another, and we negotiate to the middle, that doesn't mean he is attracted to the middle, ya know?

Since SF is my top EN, and obviously something we struggle with, I think this relates here too. I have a high need, he has a low need. Even if we negotiated to somewhere in the middle, there are still many days when my 'need' is going unmet, and therefore I am still not happy. Not that this is what is happening, but theoretically.

I mean bluntly, if I want it every day, and we negotiate to 3 times a week, there are still 4 days a week I want it and am not getting it. But negotiating means we have to meet in the middle.

POJA back hand me here, tell me where I'm wrong.

I can relate to your dislike of shopping for clothes. I have never been able to put together a nice outfit on my own. Always had to go to a store where I could get help. And I'm on the opposite end of the height spectrum at 62". Plus I'm in a "mature" age bracket but petite, so I'm looking for small clothes that make me feel great but not trying to look like I'm a wanna-be teeny bopper. I want to feel great with clothes that fit properly and also make my husband smile in appreciation.

Could you get him to find some outfits that he likes or sketches of a general look? Either online or from magazines or catalogs. Then you could take the pictures of his likes that overlook with your likes to a nice store and show them to a helpful associate there for assistance. Not every assistant will be helpful, but if you keep looking, you will probably find one who understands your tastes and will know how to help you.

With a nice budget where you don't have to be too concerned over how much things cost, you could go to a boutique or a really nice department store and develop a relationship with a female personal shopper type who could help you with selections and bringing clothes to you in the fitting room.

I found a good tailor who could take a store-bought dress or pair of jeans and make it fit right to me. I've rarely been able to find clothes in places like Ross, Target, or Walmart, because they carry a lot of "average" sizes.

I take really good care of my clothes so that I don't have to spend time shopping as much. I hate it, too. I go maybe twice a year and only if I have to.

I think POJA will often lead us to a place where we are both reasonably happy with the end result, but our original desire would have led us being ecstatically happy. The problem would be that someone would be quite happy while the other isn't happy at all.

In SF, I am happy to accommodate my H to 2 - 4 times per week, although he would certainly enjoy it more often. Since he feels more fulfilled when I "go over the top" but I can't seem to get there every single time, we pick a place where we are both fine with what is happening.

My H loves action movies, superhero movies, where as I love romantic comedy and foreign films. I would be completely happy getting to watch my favorite; the same for him. But in our attempt to create compatibility, we find movies that we both can enjoy, even though we may not enjoy them quite as much as we did our original choices. However, the fact that we are creating compatibility is very fulfilling to both of us now.

"Reasonably happy" - It's the way it has turned out with many of our want-to's. I want to ride bikes on a Saturday and go out all day long with a picnic lunch. My H prefers a shorter ride with time for a table game and a grilled supper. He would go all day with me and do what I want, but he wouldn't have as good of a time and might feel resentful. He has learned to be open and honest about what he wants to do, and then we find something we both like, even if the result is not what we would have picked if it was only up to one person. The result is what will make us both reasonably happy and not cause resentment.

See thats one of the problems. I am not 100% sure WHAT H likes. He has given me information in this area several times, all different.

Once he told me that early on in our marriage we got an outdoor catalog (like REI, Patagonia, something like that) and he paged through it looking at the different girls thinking "I wish my wife was like her." Now these were girls dressed sporty, for sure. Just the other day we got an REI catelog and I thought about that while thinking, that is kinda how I dress (but I am always dirty than the girls in the pictures, because I am actually doing the activity, not just modeling it for a catalog), only I am better looking then all of them (and more modest too, of course).

That was back in the day when I was at home with my babies and HE was doing all those activities but I was foregoing them because someone needed to stay home with the kiddos. Not because I didn't love doing them, but because only one of us could so I let him. (Giver). So now that I do those he now says he wants me to be trendier or whatever, so that has changed.

He will specifically give me a weight, but then when I get obsessed about meeting that weight, he will say what he really wants is that weight because thats what I want, huh? Or he will tell me he wants me to be trendier. But when I express that I feel uncomfortable dressing like that he'll say he doesn't want me to and that I misunderstand.

It is a lack of communication. But I have tried really hard to get him to specifically identify what it is he WANTS and he doesn't, or he can't, IDK. H is a 'grass is greener' kinda guy, to the 9th degree, he always wants the next best thing, so sometimes I wonder if that plays a role.

Which is one reason I feel stuck, like I cannot meet his need here regardless of what I do.

But those are good ideas LWFH. Except the taking good care of my clothes part, I just work hard play harder in all my clothes and somehow end up wearing even my 'good' clothes to do dirty things so they get trashed. But if I had expensive clothes I probably wouldn't do that.

Great explanation.

So what is wrong with a little back and forth sacrifice?

By this I mean, what if you like one kind of movie and he likes another. One night he chooses the next night you choose. As long as you both get a night to choose, why would anyone be resentful? And you wouldn't have to forego your romance films completely and he wouldn't have to forego his action films completely, just take turns. Like when we were kids, and our parents told us to take turns. Not everything was a negotiation, sometimes the other kid got his way, and sometimes you did.

I know that is recommended against, but I don't understand why that is so bad.

That's what we used to do. We used Netflix back when they sent DVDs to your house. I insisted we set up two queues: one for him and one for me. H kind of wanted to pick films with me in mind, but I encouraged him to pick films just for him. That way I could pick my foreign films, which drove him nuts, because he hated reading subtitles.

When it was time for his film, I sometimes joined him in watching, but most often I sat and read a book. Then he suffered through the stuff I like.

We just both like it better now. We sit on the couch, all cuddled up, and find something we both like. We've learned to prefer it this way. The POJA has helped us learn to enjoy more of the same things.

If I want to watch something he doesn't want to watch, I can always watch it some other time when we're not together or when H doesn't care about watching "Family Man" for the umpteenth time, like when he is working on a presentation and can ignore it. He will occasionally watch one of his favorites while I'm at my dance class one evening a week.

The new way has created compatibility. But the other cool thing we love about the POJA is the "test." He will ask me if I might be persuaded to give some movie a try. It is often a movie that I would have otherwise no interest in. But since he asked me, well, I would check it out. The agreement is that if I don't like it within a certain time frame, then we can turn it off. So we will sometimes go this route.

That's how the gym thing started. I hated gyms, didn't like the smell, didn't like machines, and was bored with treadmills and stairmasters. But my H was more motivated with me there with him, so I said I'd give it a try. I don't like the gym any better; however, I like the result of going to the gym with H. He loves to have my company and will work hard at the machines since I'm there. It's time together for us, and I'm more toned now. He didn't like running the four miles through the neighborhood before breakfast like I did, so we changed the way we did things so that we would both be okay with it. If given the choice, I'd much rather go out running first thing, shower and have breakfast, but that didn't work for H once he was home from deployment.

My H had to learn to be completely and radically honest about his feelings and desires. This is all new to him. I used to wear older sweat-stained shirts to the gym until he finally asked me to throw those away and wear nicer-looking ones. He loves it when I wear arm-baring shirts. LOVES it! He never told me this kind of thing before, so I wasn't too thrilled to have to get rid of what I considered perfectly decent shirts, but if he didn't like the way I looked with those underarm stains, I was glad he was telling me.

The POJA doesn't work if one spouse isn't radically honest.

When I say I take care of my clothes, I mean that I wash them pretty carefully and mostly air dry my favorite things so that they don't get beat up in the dryer. Also, I always wear an apron when I am cooking to protect what's underneath. If I work in the garden, I change into my overalls and an old t-shirt. I wear work-out clothes to the gym. I am so delighted when I finally find something that I like and that H is delighted to see me wear that I am careful about protecting it, because it's not always easy to find a replacement.

If I find a shirt I like I will often buy it in several colors. H loves to see me in my low cut jeans (tummy covered) with polos from VS. They're not sexy shirts, just nice-looking simple tops that look great with jeans and boots. H even likes the bras and panties I've been buying and will say so. He's a bit braver now about telling me, "I don't like those jeans-they come up too high." It's....surprising after so many years of not hearing an opinion.

Oh I wouldnt buy designer either. I'm so cheap. The outfit I'm wearing right now was actually free! If Chanel could lump together some old clothes, cheap clothes or knock things up on a sewing machine, who am I to argue with her example? I just use her for inspiration.





That sounds great. How come he didnt go for it? Take the reason from him as to why it dodnt work and reshape the solution.



I'm a reporter, so what I wear everyday HAS to be comfortable. I could end up wading through a muddy field after a story. Once I had to scoot along a slippery wooden plank, conveniently placed over a pit of sharp twisted metal things. When there's extreme weather, I get sent out to cover it. If there's a fire, I shiver on the street until it's over. (god bless firemen and their kind knack of making tea inside the fire engine!)

And on the weekends, after a week like that, there's no way Im going to opt for discomfort. These are my comfort-but-stylish tips.

Leggings. Wear them under cute 'mini dress' tunics and sweater dresses with great boots. I had a great sweater dress that was so warm and soft it was like wearing my duvet.

Smart shoes. Ballet flats with pretty details, cowboy boots, knee/calf boots in great leather with a sole that handle anything.

A great jacket/coat - something smart and super warm. Mine's alpaca and while it was dear it saves me from freezing and is like a big wooly hug.

That's the best I can do from here anyway!

Bingo. Mr U may find the coaching helpful there.



Its fine as a short term 'let be open minded' 'maybe I WILL like westerns if you do' approach. But long term, if you really DONT like each other's movies you will spend years never enjoying a movie togehter. Whats fun about that?

It's OK if you dont MIND the movie choice. Not minding is POJA, but there has to be something in it for both of you.

'Togehter when happiest' is the approach for building love. 'Together when bored out of our brains' makes you view each other as boring.

But it is unlikely that he is attracted to a very specific weight only, an exact shading of muscle tone, a specific hair length only, an exact red dress with buttons on the hem.... you see?

Perhaps when he is giving you examples and then 'changing' his viewpoint when you object, he is simply giving you ideas and options. Options that he MIGHT like in the flesh, but you have to like them too. Basically he isnt married to those concepts and he is open minded to other ideas, which is what POJA is all about.

Going back to the movies example, I HATE James Bond movies, but I liked the recent one because it included other elements I do like. Sometimes you dont know what you will like until you see it.

Its not that he didn't like the idea. He is just very, very, VERY passive when it comes to relationship stuff. He has gotten 'better' over the course of all this, but I would not say he prioritizes it or takes the bull by the horns.

So he liked the idea, said that sounds great. Then never did it. Never took the time to actually pull up the website and have a look see. Yes he is a busy guy, but he DOES have the time to pull up websites on various hobby related things, so there is time for it. He just doesn't prioritize it.

On a daily basis, I do my hobby which is muddy and dirty and all outside (in the midwest, where it is cold most of the year). When I am not doing that I am at home cleaning bathrooms, cat litter boxes, etc. When I am not doing that I am working at my non profit which is also not necessarily a dress fancy kinda place, although I am more involved with admin then hands on stuff. So very little of what I do is capable of handling anything that is remotely dressy or expensive. The closest I get is date nights and parties, and I do try and dress up for those. However, even though H specifically asked that I dress up for date nights, when I did he began to complain because I made him feel out of place, because he is a jeans and tshirt guy and I am perfectly comfortable with that. So we were mismatched on our dates for awhile.

Leggings bug me, because in my heighth they almost always are either too big and bunch up or too short and have that little pocket in the crotch. Totally uncomfortable! (but I guess I wear long johns a lot and thats not that different...) Dresses, UGGG Indie what are you trying to do to me here! I can't imagine wearing a dress every day, although on date nights I think I would like this getup. Shopping for dresses would be painful though...

I LOVE LOVE LOVE tall boots. Totally sexy!!! The taller the better, and if I have enough heel to put me over 6 foot I am totally comfortable with that. Here's a problem with that. I have developed over the last year a bad case of plantar fascitis, which means my heels hurt like a mo fo. Some days I can barely walk, although I try to not complain. The only thing that seems to help is one pair of Nike tennis I have, I put them on when I get up and wear them until I go to bed. It kinda sucks because I can't really dress up AT ALL because not a lot goes with tennis shoes. And my fave pair of tall boots are collecting dust. I did wear them on Sunday because I had a party for work (non profit) and wanted to look nice and professional, and I paid for it. So, not sure how to get around that. I don't like to talk about health issues though, makes me feel old.

You have great ideas, I am like one of those women on What Not To Wear who is just negative about everything, lol. I need to just invest and be more open minded.

I have suggested this many, many times. He is not enthusiastic about it.

Well let me rephrase that. He says he is willing to do the online program if we fail on our own for a specific period of time (in the future) and apparently this long is not enough yet. And he also says he will use the coaching center on specific items, but when it comes down to it, drags his feet at it. That whole passive thing. Or maybe he thinks it is a terrible idea and just isn't ever O&H with me, IDK.

All true. I know I put too much thought into it.

I go gung ho into trying to be the perfect wife for him in one way or another, PA wise, DS wise, etc. and get so little positive feedback back from it. It seems sometime I can never get it right. I try and clarify what he wants from a PA perspective, and the goal he gives me is daunting of itself. Then I kindof obsess over meeting that goal, but get little encouragement or positive feedback from him, and eventually he says I misunderstand what he wants, and we are back to square one. Then I get frustrated and just go F it, why even try. Then I muster up some more energy, try some different approach, same cycle happens, then I am in F it stage again. Over and over. And it gives me these emotional highs and lows, high when I think I understand what to do and get excited about doing it, go gung ho into it with a positive attitude and energy, but then it pans out to nothing good, then I just get really negative and like hopeless about it. Rollercoaster. I have asked before when the rollercoaster ends and that is because this long after DDay I am still on it. Maybe not in a crisis kind of way anymore, not because of triggers or bad thoughts or anything like that, just because of our relationship dynamics, more than anything.

Meanwhile he says nothing about meeting my needs. I can tell he does put effort in, he has been really helping out in the DS area lately, and he attempts to give me more admiration. But he certainly doesn't seem to obsess about it as much as I do.

Oh goody I am sounding like a girl, for once.