Hrm. H has told me that he feels like I only want him because he is the closest warm body that is 'ethical' because we are married. I am very affectionate and admiring of him, so I never quite understood this.

I don't really feel like I ever make 'demands' of him with SF, but maybe I do... I don't ever outright 'demand' SF. I guess I am just a little pushy at times, but I never thought of that as demanding.


I never looked at it this way because he is getting some too, ya know?

OK, Unwritten.

Keep going. You have good points, your H has good points. Together they will make a beautiful POJA solution.

If your H would HATE to do the chores, he shouldn't do them.

But I would suggest you the DS exercise anyway just so you can both see the difference between wanting something done and needing something done. Like Dr H says it changes attitudes.

If he wants you to keep a cleaner house, you don't have to. That's not POJA. And you shouldn't sacrifice for his want. His need can be met in other ways and with other solutions.

Do you want to be at home FT? Wouldn't some small income help pay for help? Even if it was a home business or the like.

Keep going, keep brainstorming.

what kind of cleaning takes four hours anyway?

He wouldn't hate to do the chores, as much as he has no time to do the chores. Between his work, our UA time, and family time I have NO idea where he would squeeze in housework. I honestly don't know how people with two full times jobs get it all done, short from outside help.

Do I want to be at home FT? Hrm. I have always felt like I FAIL as a SAHM. Not as a mom, but with this whole DS thing. It is, afterall, expected that a SAHM have it all together in the home, because what else does she do all day? That DJ has been given to me by MBers right here on this thread, so clearly it is the overwhelming public opinion (and likely shared by H, although he is pretty good about it compared to others). So, its not that I dislike being a SAHM FT, but I, like all SAHM's have probably struggled with the perceptions and DJ's about what exactly that means.

I don't know that I would ever go back to work FT or PT, unless it was doing something I was passionate about. We don't need the money, or the hassle of juggling two schedules. There are many benefits to having one parent at home, of course. I know H does NOT want me to go back to work, in any fashion.

I do work. I am the president, volunteer coordinator and educator for a non profit organization. It is no small task and I already spend the equivalant of a part time job on it, most weeks. I just do it from home (mostly) and don't get paid for it, so again it is not considered a 'job' by anyone I know. It is something that has been suggested I give up, to make more time for EN meeting, UA time, etc. and I have fought that tooth and nail because I take great pride in it, even though I don't get paid for it.

As far as working to pay for housekeeping. We can afford outside help. Its the whole 'what exactly is MY job' thing I have to get over, I guess. We did just hire someone to do lawncare for us though. But clean the house, when I am home all day? That would be hard for me.

Unwritten, I feel your pain. I, too, am a SHAM (actually, I work from home, but make very little income doing it). I have been trying to even the playing ground some (and for self-preservation reasons) to get a good paying FT job,...but it's been a loooong process of a lot of time/effort with little results.

It's torture to try and recover when the income and responsibilities for each spouse is so opposite (one the bread winner, able to make 6x what the hard working, yet dependent, domestic can). My H is also a neat-freak,...but doesn't bother to do domestic things,..claiming it's not his job (and insinuating that I have "more time" to do it). When asked what he plans to do when I am working FT,...he says he plans to make it the kids' responsibility or, he hopes we'll be making enough to hire a maid service (yeah,...nice to know I am replaceable/disposable in that regard).

* sigh *

For me, the terror of my cheating spouse, essentially landing a granade in my home,...and very sudden abandonment.... was the WORST thing (emotionally and physically) -- and it continues to be --- that I have EVER had to deal with.

It leaves a CONSTANT sense of doom,....and threat,...because he's proven he has the the ability to not only hurt me,...but to destroy my future, my family, cause the children to have scars, resentment, lose their sense of security, their home, and livelihood; and most of it is completely beyond my control,...despite my hard effort, time, love, and loyalty.

It's easy to say,..."just leave him" -- he doesn't respect you, he refuses to agree to POJA and work on the things that are required for recovery. Many of my friends, family, and even MB have told me....that's what needs to be done.

However, that's much easier said than done. Until I am able to work to support my family on my own, I am trapped....under his control, essentially. Sure, I can chose to leave,...but, I am also choosing to live on 1/3 of the income we currently have (at best -- even with CS and alimony), burdened with ALL of the domestics and time constraints as a working single mom, choosing, by necessity, to leave our comfortable home, choosing a much harder time for my children, because I will be gone more, dealing with parents living separately and juggled from one home to another (which they will resent both of us for -- they did). I will be choosing to allow OP to be a part of my children's lives (by the sheer act of divorcing/separating),...not now, but forever,..having to deal with seeing/mingling with OP for all future family events, choosing to leave our community,...and the loss of friends, associates, family connections. Not to mention the mess of the dating life.

I make a choice to stay in it, to avoid all of that. I don't wish to choose that future. I do what I can,..and I do my part (including my own healing). Yet, I also have to prepare for the possible uncertainty I now know I have no control over -- my H choices (despite the good things and effort that I put into the relationship).

As far as cleaning, I have had friends ask me how I can clean for that much in a day? I ask them how they canNOT clean that much in a day. I have 3 little kids and a few animals running around here. I probably spend an hour washing, folding, and putting away laundry PER DAY, just laundry. I 'should' sweep and/or vacuum daily, we seem to drag a lot of dirt in with our hobbies. Cleaning the kitchen after meals. Heck just the bare necessities would probably take me 4 hrs a day, without any projects and there are plenty of those to go around.

That being said, I also have a dose of ADHD I think, I am VERY easily distracted and therefore struggle to stay on task, so it takes me much longer to perform a task than the next guy.

You sound like me. I sympathise. Because I find housework boring I am constantly wandering off mid task. It simply isn't efficient making you use up so much valuable marraige time doing something you hate and find boring. that's why POJA is so wise.

I can clean with my mother helping me. She can do in ten minutes what takes me an hour. I find the sociability of a helper really useful too and keeps me on task. How about making a pact with another SAHM? You blitz her house in an hour then you blitz yours. Or you do her hated tasks and she does yours (if compatible). Cheaper than help. Keep thinking.



Can you send out the laundry? Can you get a robovac to help keep things 'topped up'on the floor front?

My mum was a SAHM and my dad worked crazy overtime. She never spent more than an hour a day on cleaning and she viewed it as an impediment to her true role of helper, playmate, teacher and CHEF (the kitchen is where our true memories of her lie!).

She never did the traditionally male DS stuff, like the lawn or DIY, my dad that. If your H does these things, you may want to 'exchange' them with him if he does not hate cleaning. The DS exercise will take you through that.

My mother taught us and played with us. This is the role of a SAHM. The 'M' part. At home! You said yourself the 'fun' part was important to you. That is part of your wise POJA solution I suspect.



Is reducing his hours an option?



I dont recall seeing that written in stone anywhere! And I would much rather have a mother like mine who put the emphasis on mother, as opposed to cleaner.

It's both your money, not your H's money. If you want to hire a cleaner while you bake with the kids or begin all the 'projects'. you dont have time for. You dont have to feel guilty for getting a service you need and are paying for.

Truth be told, my H has asked me several times if I would want a cleaner. He is totally on board with getting one. He says he doesn't care how it gets done, he just wants it done (the housework).

It's really my hangup about not feeling worthy, if I am not cleaning the house, I guess. Even though I suck at it!

We are currently searching for land, in the country, and planning to build a new home within the next 1-2 yrs. When we go through that building process it will be on a hobby farm, and will have a kennel as well. I have already told H when that move happens I will gladly get someone to do the housework, so that I can do all the farmwork and kennel work. That will be a full time job in itself really, and one that I will HAPPILY and enthusiastically do (I smile just writing it, glorious barns and kennels!). So that will solve this problem. House will be clean because Matilda the maid cleaned it, farm will run smoothly because I will happily work all day maintaining barn, kennel, animals and collecting eggs from my chickens... and H will just work and pay for it all, and come home to enjoy it all with me. Oh I have such grand ideas don't I? I really do think, life is always better on the farm.

OK Indie thank you for all your help here with this. I will rethink our need filling and demands, sacrificing, etc.

I still have lots of hangups and questions regarding the SF thing, but I am going to let it rest for now. I feel like I talk about SF way too much.

Unwritten you are clearly an intelligent woman who will make an intelligent household manager once you unchain yourself from the sink. When was the last time you had time to go through your household budget for example? Work to your strengths and you wont feel like a failure.



Nah, keep going. It's what you're here for.

What are his top ENs? If he has a fair sex drive I bet it would be easy to hike it up further by combining his other high ENs with it. (Like Melody does by combining her need for affection)

PA need is the obvious one. Men have very funny and specific requests here someimes!

It sounds like just dropping the demands will do a lot. That has shot his admiration need down. The 'warm body' comment I heard myself when I demanded SF.



I have the appetite of a lumberjack. But if you woke me at 5am and said I had to eat a rich dessert on an empty stomach, I'd tell you to go jump.

Eventually, if I had to eat it every day, the chocolate dessert I used to love would make me sick of the sight of it.

No matter what our needs, we have to have them met the way we like, when we like and how often we like. Enthusiastically.

Ah, its actually more important to you to keep doing it to 'earn' a say, isn't it?

If you sacrice, you can ask him to sacrice.

This is exactly why sacrifice is banned, hon.

You can get the sex you want with him enthusiastically on board

Like me, you probably jumped straight to the 'I'm the girl, I should get all the sex I want' type demand.

His working hours may also be a factor.

What does he say?

I was thinking of your question, on my way home Unwritten. What is a homemaker? What is their main task?

All us crazy dames feel anxiety at times in living up to the Ideal of Womanhood. Either with PA or FC or DS.

It reminded me of Meg in Little Women. She nearly sacrificed herself on that altar, because she so wanted to be an amazing wife and mother.

She wants to devote herself to FC but it is wearing her out. Her mother suggests switching to DS as it suits her better.

I would suggest switching DS for FC in your sitch, (the 'fun' you were talking about) but meeting H's need for DS in ways you enjoy.

But back to your Q, Meg's mother comes up with THE BEST description of what a SAHM is:

"You have only made the mistake that most young wives make-forgotten your duty to your husband in your love for your children. A very natural and forgivable mistake, Meg, but one that had better be remedied before you take to different ways, for children should draw you nearer than ever, not separate you, as if they were all yours, and John had nothing to do but support them. I've seen it for some weeks, but have not spoken, feeling sure it would come right in time."

"I'm afraid it won't. If I ask him to stay, he'll think I'm jealous, and I wouldn't insult him by such an idea. He doesn't see that I want him, and I don't know how to tell him without words."

"Make it so pleasant he won't want to go away. My dear, he's longing for his little home, but it isn't home without you, and you are always in the nursery."

"Oughtn't I to be there?"

"Not all the time, too much confinement makes you nervous, and then you are unfitted for everything. Besides, you owe something to John as well as to the babies. Don't neglect husband for children, don't shut him out of the nursery, but teach him how to help in it. His place is there as well as yours, and the children need him. Let him feel that he has a part to do, and he will do it gladly and faithfully, and it will be better for you all."

"You really think so, Mother?"

"I know it, Meg, for I've tried it, and I seldom give advice unless I've proved its practicability. When you and Jo were little, I went on just as you are, feeling as if I didn't do my duty unless I devoted myself wholly to you. Poor Father took to his books, after I had refused all offers of help, and left me to try my experiment alone. I struggled along as well as I could, but Jo was too much for me. I nearly spoiled her by indulgence. You were poorly, and I worried about you till I fell sick myself. Then Father came to the rescue, quietly managed everything, and made himself so helpful that I saw my mistake, and never have been able to got on without him since. That is the secret of our home happiness. He does not let business wean him from the little cares and duties that affect us all, and I try not to let domestic worries destroy my interest in his pursuits. We each do our part alone in many things, but at home we work together, always."

"It is so, Mother, and my great wish is to be to my husband and children what you have been to yours. Show me how, I'll do anything you say."

"You were always my docile daughter. Well, dear, I'd do what I have often proposed, let Hannah come and help you. She is a capital nurse, and you may trust the precious babies to her while you do more housework. You need the exercise, Hannah would enjoy the rest, and John would find his wife again. Go out more, keep cheerful as well as busy, for you are the sunshine-maker of the family, and if you get dismal there is no fair weather."

THAT is what you are, Unwritten!

You are the sunshine maker! And we need to put great importance on keeping you cheerful.

Thanks for sharing your story Daisy.

At some point in this mess I did have the rug of security pulled out from under me, of course. I am sure everyone does but I do think for a SAHM there is a different dynamic because you do rely on your spouse for things that working BS's do not. Of course my immediate thought was, how will I function as a single parent, when I haven't even worked in a decade?

I do have an education, and have, through my volunteer work, continued with some skills, but that being said I would still make FAR less than my H does. Our lifestyle would change dramatically.

At some point I got over that fear. I think it was the first fear of my family breaking up that I faced. It didn't take me long to realize that I would rather be dirt poor and facing the world without his financial help than live like I was. A little tiny apartment sounded PEACEFUL, and I didn't fear rationing paper towels or any of the other things that ran through my mind. I just want peace.

Not to mention the fact that I soon realized there are actually laws to protect me from becoming destitute after this kind of situation. He could pay me child support and spousal support (if my pride would let me accept that) and STILL live a very, very nice life as well. And he has always vowed to always financial take care of me, not that I would want to take advantage of that in any way. (And, you divorce a different person than you marry so...)

I hope you rethink staying together out of fear for what your life will be like if you don't. To me, rationing paper towels is far easier.

DS, AF, RC, Admiration, SF


Maybe if I clean the house in a maid outfit.


I have been working on this with him. I do feel he has some unrealistic expectations about PA. And sometimes, I am confused by his contradictory attitude about PA. So I guess we are still working on it...

I am really not convinced he needs you to clean at all for his DS need to be met. He's already said he doesnt care. As long as you treat his need for a pleasant, welcoming home as important and work with him on that, you're golden. If he has a need for affection, you'd prob be better off making cute thoughtful lunches for him to take to work with little notes in. Which is FAR less work than four hours cleaning and prob makes way more LB deposits.

But keep the outfit handy




With an extra four hours to spare you could put a Hollywood godesses' routine to shame.

Perhaps I should go back and read some more to really 'get' this, but meeting a PA need is going to get you much further with SF than cleaning.

So get help and reprioritise!

I take your point about his request likely being unrealistic. Being a man, he's never walked a mile in your slingbacks and prob has no idea of the effort PA takes.

That's the beauty of POJA. It takes one spouse's perspective a reshapes it into more realistic form.

Have you sat down and POJA'd his need for PA, using the specific POJA steps Dr H laid down?

For example if he says "I want you to wear stilettos 24/7" Do you simply respond with "I think that would damage my spine
.." or Y/N? Or do you go through ALL the POJA steps until it is reshaped into something you both like?

Apologies if this is covered already here. I will go see....

I will admit, I have had the attitude that if I am an attractive woman, offering anything he wants on a silver platter, whenever he wants it, he would be a FOOL not to take me up. What man turns that down?

Oh I have pages of discussion on this thread about why I don't seem to get the SF I want. Is it because the supply is so high he never has to work for it. Is it because of PA. etc. etc.

Recently, I have started to evolve my way of thinking on this. I have come to the conclusion that I am just extraordinarily needy in this respect. I think this came in the way of someone telling me to POJA 3 times a week, to which I replied we POJA'd 5 times a week, and I still am not happy. Such as unrealistic expectations about PA, is more than 5 times a week a completely unrealistic expectation? Yup.

But you know, SF IS a biological thing. When the desire is there, biologically, like needing food, water or air you can think of little else. You just want to satisfy that need. For me, anyway. So it is hard to have the object of my desire sitting right in front of me, and yet not be able to have any.

I didn't mean for that to sound disrespectful at all, I am just trying to be brutally honest about the 'need' more or less.

So, I have concluded I am needy on this topic. Overly needy, I guess. For many years I did not get my SF need met in any way shape or form. I was rejected a LOT. It was very hurtful. I guess by 'demand' I think of 'give me this or else' and I have never been THAT way. But I have been pushy, like I said. Mopey if I do not get my needs met, sure. Detached when I don't get my way. Yes that is definitely demands, now that I think about it.

One thing that hit me HARD recently was this. H and I were discussing his ONS. I know I know, it was a conversation he felt we must have prior to his recent polygraph, to make sure every last detail was communicated properly. He did not want any detail to pop into his head with a 'did I tell UW about this?" and make him screw up the poly. He had already told me that he saw the OW one time following that, outside of work, at a happy hr. She got really drunk and someone asked him to bring her home safely. He had told me he doesn't barely remember talking to her, other than to confirm she had not told anyone about their recent ONS. Well in this 'rehash' of this situation, he told me that he remembers her saying something along the lines of 'I'll never forget that night.' He can't remember exactly what she said, just that it is the only time he has ever felt admired for his sexual performance.

OUCH! It is painful for me to think that in one night, this stupid POSOW made my H feel good about his performance, and in 13 yrs apparently I have never made him feel good about his performance. That sucks. In a very eye opening kinda way. I try not to ever criticize his performance, and in fact am generally very happy with it. I am very affectionate and admiring, both in and out of the sack, and prior to DDay gave him these two things in bucketfuls. So how could this be?

Basically it is because I am never satisfied, I always want more. Even when I tell him I LOVED it and LOVE him and LOVE being with him and that's why I want more, he still feels like he can never satisfy me. I never knew that the fact I have such a strong desire for SF hurt his ego as much as it apparently does.

Not sure how to fix all this. Just trying to figure it all out. I don't want to demand, in any way shape or form. I shouldn't have to demand. But I also don't want to go without that need met, as I did for over a decade. In this process of trying to figure my EN's and relationship out, I can tell that it has the single greatest impact on my ability to engage, leave resentment behind, etc. And going with out also has the greatest affect on me disengaging, getting resentful, etc. So...

IDK. Those are my thoughts, randomly.

Well, DS is H's #1 need not FC, in fact FC does not even make the top 5 and he already says I do great at it.


And that made me almost spit out my Mt. Dew. Sunshine Maker! That is definitely something I have NEVER been called before!!!

Yes, but it makes YOU happy. And we need you to be happy before you attempt to meet his needs.

Plus it does sound like he DOES appreciate FC being met. So it would be foolish to cut it.

Are those top needs you listed genuinely his top needs? Or just needs he has complaints about so he has prioritised them?

Its very common for people to not recognise a top need because they are already getting it.

But back to my main point. I assume your H likes his job and does stuff he is good at.

So what's wrong with you doing the same?

Cute, thoughtful lunches will not do anything to meet his need for DS though, so I am confused as to why that is better. It would meet his need for affection but I already meet that need pretty easily.



Well, I am 5'10 and wear a size 6, although after a lazy winter I am pushing into a size 8 (not gonna let it happen though!). I often have people tell me I don't look my age. I think it is mainly because I don't ACT my age, so when people find out I am 40 they are flabbergasted. I am attractive, and obviously modest too...ha. And sex appeal...check, and then some. But, I know he has told me I am more 'vulgar' sometimes than sexy in my speech and mannerisms (to him), (think guys talking in the locker room), so I am trying to curtail that.

He says he would like me to be more petite, although I'm not sure if anyone my heighth can be 'petite.' I guess that means thinner. Well I, like every girl, wouldn't mind losing a few and definitely have some spots to tone up, but I am within a normal weight range and don't think that should be holding him back in terms of PA, ya know?

So the problem is I guess, I'm a tomboy. When I dress up I am a show stopper, but mostly I wear jeans and tank tops and have dirt under my nails. I'm that kinda girl. Which, H loves in some ways because we have lots of shared hobbies and he is outdoorsy guy and we like to play in the mud together, so to speak. I am not a girl who could pull off fake nails, or fake anything very well frankly. So he says he would never want a girly girl, or high maintenance girl, because he LOVES the fact that I play in the dirt with him (RC is a pretty high need for him).

But then he also seems to not be satisfied with my tomboyishness too sometimes. He says "you are so beautiful if you tried to look hot you would turn heads wherever you go." Sweet, but how do I go from the barn to turning heads? I do hate shopping, hate primping, and in general am just not...girly. So I guess I do get mixed messages here of...I love the tomboy in you...but I wish you would be more girly.

Now, to be fair to myself, I shave my legs, do my hair, and wear makeup every day, so its not like I am totally UNgirly either.

IDK. We had this PA conversation earlier this summer. He told me he really likes cleavage. Well, I happen to really like cleavage, so I wear clothes that show off cleavage almost all the time already, even with jeans and dirt under my nails. He also said he likes leg, so I have been attempting to wear things that show a little leg, although he has yet to comment on that. I also know he likes nice feet. I have big saskwatch feet so it is hard to make them pretty, but I have been trying to maintain pedicures and plan to continue doing so.

So i'm trying, but I do have to say many people would be envious of what he is starting with. That's where I say I think he is unrealistic. Because I think even in jeans and tank tops I am smokin hot! At least I'm confident.



I think the answer here is we are still working on this.

And frankly, PA doesn't even fall in the top 5 for him. So, I'm not sure that it really makes a huge difference in the need for SF, but perhaps I am mistaken. As a girl of course being rejected for SF, I immediately THINK that is the problem. Its a quandary.

DJ and demand. The oft travelled route to NOT getting what you want. Been there.


I doubt a man with an admiration need will ever resent a wife who wants him. But demanding him is different.

The best way is to ask him really. What does he say?


Why is that unrealistic? I know couples who do six or seven where one has or had low SF need. They just got another need met like affection. And this is non MBers. Well they are in spirit but not heard of the programme.

Wish I had done it their way instead of mine.



I know!



Don't assume. ASK. In what way SPECIFICALLY does he want to be admired sexually.

If you are right and it is your level of satisfaction, then you're both working on that, anyway.

You need to find the key to his enthusiasm. What would make him enthusiastic about more sex? Simply showing you care about his enthusiasm and enjoyment removes the whole demand dynamic.

Hrm, that seems kindof unMBlike. Kindof like being a taker. IDK. We both get PLENTY of FC time, that I know.


No, his top needs based on the last questionnaire he did, although we have been planning to go over and update it. I would think they would be relatively similar.

I have always been affectionate and was VERY admiring, before all this. Now he complains about not getting those needs met, but some of that is because he feels guilt as a WH and does not allow me to be affectionate or admiring. Such as when I say something admiring about his work ethic/job/financial support he will counter with, well that doesn't matter. He won't accept it. As far as admiring him as a MAN, obviously that has taken a hit and for obvious reasons so, that just needs to change with time. I can't admire him the same way right now that I could pre DDay KWIM? He misses that a lot, but if I were to say admiring things like before it would not be O&H so I admire him in other ways when I can, but I know thats why he feels that need is not met.


I agree 100% with this.


Funny thing is he was just telling me this morning how much he currently DISlikes his job.

Yet he goes to work every day to pay our bills and take us on vacation. Not a lot of people in life LOVE their job, he is very gifted at his job and gets paid very well but no he doesn't love his job. So should I love my job?

I like my volunteer job. I like being a mom too. I dislike the housework but, who likes housework? Seriously, I had many people lay into me about this earlier in my thread, like I said. Some things you just have to do in life, that was the answer, more or less. I guess I agree with that, to some extent. [/quote]