OW#1 is not even remotely in the same league as me. The funny thing about her is this. H and I have a good friend who was single (getting hitched to a wonderful woman on Friday). For a long time I helped him do the online dating thing by pulling up dating profiles and picking ones out that I thought were a good match. Once, I pulled up OW#1 (before I knew she was an OW) and her profile, due to profession, etc. was okish and one that attracted me for him. Then I got into her profile with more photos and thought, hrmmm I am pretty sure he would NOT be attracted to her... After I found out about her and H, I was like, where do I know her from??? And then I remembered about pulling her up and 'vetoing' her based on her lack of attractiveness. I am not in any way shape or form intimidated by her, at all.

OW#2, well she is the one I had a problem with. Like I said, H fantasized about her openly for years. She was the little sex kitten in high school who everyone had a turn with, why he would feel like it was a BAD thing he did not is beyond me. Like I said, when I met her I was unimpressed. The very strange thing is, after all came out about her, H told me he was disappointed when I met her because he 'wanted her to impress me.' What??? IDK chalk that up to crazy things waywards say. I am tall and beautiful, she is more the short, cute cheerleader type. The intimidation was more because I knew H was so completely anamoured with her, and I would LOVE to have him feel that way about me. It took me a long time to get over my intimidation factor with her, that 'what is it about her that I don't have' factor. I'm over it. She's a cute girl, but SO AM I. There were definitely some wayward goggles going on in that situation.

I did lose my self esteem for a long time, due to the negative impact of the dysfunction in our relationship. And once I stopped feeling beautiful I stopped BEING beautiful. I will admit I didn't take care of myself in the way I do now. Even though the rebellion stage in my life made me behave in a damaging and reckless way, it restored my own self worth, and for that I am grateful. I haven't lost that. Yes I think my mama tummy is blagchhh but I still think I am a beautiful, sexy, amazing woman! I just don't think H thinks that, unfortunately. (oops, was that a DJ?)

Thanks for your input DNM! But yes, you've missed a LOT and we've covered most of it.

1. Been checked. In the normal range.
2. Yes I think self gratification and contrast effect are an issue. Unfortunately, H is unwilling to discontinue the self gratification. I don't know how to change this, since asking him to does not work.
3. This is what we have been covering. PA need/attraction level. I am a hot mama, that's all I can say. I am working on dropping another 10-15lbs which will put me in a 'very fit' range, I have also been working on the minor attributes this summer too, like getting pedi's and showing more skin. Once I do all that though, IDK what to say about attraction level, I am who I am at the end of the day.

Plus a beautiful OW would have to be extra crazy/dumb/skanky if she can't attract her own man.

Probably NOT a defensible position, IG, as OWs are often someone else's WW, and she might easily HAVE her own man, but neither the correct EN satisfaction, nor boundary protections, to prevent her straying.

I am always aware that if the OMW in our case were on this site, she would have every right to demonize my FWW as her targeted OW, but calling her "extra crazy/dumb/skanky" and unable to "attract her own man" would have been demonstrably false.

The problem with dismissing an AP as unworthy out of hand is to underestimate the attraction to the WS, and misalign the tactics necessary to fight her. It also might delude the recovering BS into thinking that running off the current AP would, of itself, solve the problem, without understanding the underlying initiating cause(s) of the WS becoming entangled.

I wasn't considering the OW as WW angle I must admit, more my own OWs dynamic and the serial single OW, who seems to bounce from man to man we see sometimes.

Considering your point of formerly good people, I wouldn't say the AP was necessarily unworthy BEFORE the A - but they certainly were during. Personality wise at the very least they had turned off every worthwhile instinct and feeling. (And I have seen two very beautiful OW even lose beauty due to the stress and guilt though I don't know how common that is).

I would say never underestimate a OPs power in and dedication to meeting a WSs ENs. They do that the way a druggie pays a dealer.

I would say never underestimate the power of the A addiction. Even when latent.

But when a BS is comparing her own self worth to the AP, we have to remember that they were dumb soulmate shmoopies drunk off their [censored] the entire time.

Their WSs perspective of how beautiful/funny/clever isn't real. It just isn't. A contrast effect set far away from the real life world of kids and dishes and bills. And that place and person would look very disgusting to a sober persons eyes.

My point is not to underestimate the AP but for BSs not to underestimate themselves.

My point is not to underestimate the AP but for BSs not to underestimate themselves.

On that, my friend, we are in full agreement.

EXACTLY

Don't underestimate the all consuming power of the nonsense reality waywards dream up ON THEM. But buy into that crap at your peril

Clearly, then your husband HAS a great deal of sexual desire. He simply finds self-gratification easier, more convenient, and possibly more pleasurable than sex with you right now. I would go so far as to say that this is not just "an issue". This is THE ISSUE. Full stop.

The real question for you is "what can I do?" I see two courses of action.

1. Continue as you are now. He's engaging in a huge Love Buster. It's Independent Behavior, probably coupled with Dishonesty about it if he follows the typical pattern. Independent Behavior + Dishonesty is also exactly the toxic combination that creates affairs. You can expect that he'll remain faithful for a short time, but as long as he keeps engaging in this, he will almost certainly stray again. You'll fight repeatedly, try to make it work, then eventually divorce in disgust or remain in an unhappy marriage in some way living separate lives.

2. Read these three articles:
http://www.marriagebuilders.com/graphic/mbi8111_quit.html
http://www.marriagebuilders.com/graphic/mbi8111_quit2.html
http://www.marriagebuilders.com/graphic/mbi8111_quit3.html

Part 2, I believe, is particularly relevant to you. He's neglecting you and your needs; how long can you live that way?

First, try a soft approach. See if you can negotiate a temporary cessation of his activity to see what happens to his desire. Usually, he will become much more interested in you within 3-7 days if he ceases his regular self-gratification. Figure out Extraordinary Precautions to prevent his use of pornography to include internet filters, getting rid of the Internet in your home completely, switching from a "smart phone" to a "dumb phone", stopping subscriptions to pornographic magazines or DVDs, etc.

If he cannot or will not cease pornography + masturbation, then plan for a separation and eventual divorce. It's really, truly, that big of a deal in your marriage.

Now, the flip side, or "how you can clean up your side of the fence". He may not BELIEVE fully that you are going to be sexually available to him with the frequency he requires. Most men require a minimum of 2-3 orgasms a week to feel "normal" and not feel like they are going to crawl out of their skins. It's all about the testosterone Do you track how often he self-gratifies?

There's a sense in which you might be able to deal with this as a BAD HABIT. Dr. Harley's book "Love Busters" covers bad habits in great detail. If he's not truly addicted, one of the several strategies outlined in the book for reducing the frequency of bad habits and eventually eliminating them might work.

I'd encourage you to read Love Busters cover-to-cover with your husband. Read the chapters aloud together, and in particular ask one another the questions at the end of each chapter. If he's otherwise committed to the program, this exercise will cover "Bad Habits" partway through the book, and it will be a perfect time to introduce how much his self-gratification is affecting your marriage and what a huge Love Buster it is. You can have an honest discussion about what it will take for him to never use pornography for the rest of his life.

And that, IMHO, is going to be a prerequisite for a life-long, monogamous marriage with your husband.

I think there are more issues than this. But it is a factor.


H does not engage in frequent masturbation, and I do not think he ever watches porn. I have said he 'has' watched porn in the past, as have I, it is not something we do now. Yesterday he read my thread and told me that we need to discuss some major misconceptions regarding things, one of which is that he self gratifies 'regularly.' He said he answered my question as to whether he still was with a 'yes' only because he HAD, not because he did on a regular basis. He said once a month tops, and hasn't at all since the last time we talked about it which was probably a month ago. I am assuming the same is true of porn, if he has watched it at all it has been very irregularly. I don't know if he has at all because since we have started this process he has been very negative verbally about the damages of porn, even more so than I have. But we will have a conversation about that.

Regarding EP's. H has a work computer that is locked down with very tight company security, he also has an ipad and an iphone both of which he uses for work. I do not have control over those items, without affecting his job (not to say I don't have ACCESS bc I do have access to all his accounts, pw's, browsing history, etc. and I use it). Our internet service at home is primarily used by me, if I were to shut it down well...goodbye! I wouldn't even be able to post here! We have never subscribed to porn mags or had DVDs etc in our house. I am sorry if I have given you the impression that porn is a big issue, it is not, H really has never had a huge interest in it.


You clearly have missed a LOT of my thread. SF is my #1 EN and has been, well, my whole adult life. I know all about what a normal man thinks like because I have the hormones of an 18 yr old boy. Pre DDay I can not think of a single time I turned H down for SF (that would be in a decade of marriage), post DDay we obviously had issues to overcome due to triggers/images etc, but even then as much as I WANTED to not ask for sex I just couldn't help myself. I have also given OS out like candy in a parade up until recently, when I was pg and on bedrest for 5 months I offered OS every day to make sure his need was satisfied, even though I could not satisfy my own needs due to medical reasons. There is NO WAY he thinks I will not 'anti up' for a sexual need on his part. No way.


I truly appreciate your posts and your perspective! When people have ideas and suggestions, even if they are not all relevant, I take them all to heart in a combined way. We do have a hurdle to overcome with SF, it is clear, and I think there are many factors that play into it. But I do not think the masturbation is the #1 reason or source of the problem. (Porn isn't even a problem, unless there is some SSL going on I don't know about, which as we all know is always possible, but I don't think so).

So yesterday I asked H to read my thread. Hesitantly, I have been posting in a pretty haphazard way knowing he might read it at some point but not really considering that as I post. Not that I would change content as much as how I approach things, perhaps. But I have gotten a lot of insight in the last week and I feel like that insight should not just be mine alone, in this quest for recovery.

He hasn't read it in awhile, and had to start back at page 17. Needlesstosay he was reading almost all night, and therefore we did not have much time to discuss what he read.

We also went through the SF assignments in the program. Our interaction was...bad. Defensive on his part (although I could see he was trying very hard to not be/work through that) and, well, I am just feeling really IDK out of whack when it comes to SF, like I am internally trying to build a wall between myself and this need for SF which I have gained so much guilt and disgust for. It didn't help that the entire chapter in HNHN regarding SF didn't apply to me, although, it turns out that H and I have DIFFERENT copies of the book, mine an old version which doesn't even mention the fact that the WOMAN could have a higher need than the MAN (his online copy, I assume the latest version, did approach this). All in all at the end I just felt like more of a freak, and none of the chapter questions even applied to me. We will do the workbook questions tonight though, and hopefully can discuss things in a productive way.

The little bit of intel I did get was 1) H does not self gratify more than once a month, and hasn't since our last conversation about it. I never knew the frequency and assumed it was more than that. I would assume this is not regular enough to make any kind of impact. 2) He said the parts about a spouse 'expecting' sex once they are married and making demands hit home with him. He said he feels I have always had the attitude that 'I am a hot girl and there is no reason I should not be able to get some whenever I want.' Kinda true, I guess, to some extent. But I have also worked hard to try and figure out the issues and do whatever I could to make him more excited about it, so I haven't just expected without being willing to 'help' I guess. In my defense, because apparently I need one. 3) EGO has a HUGE part in this, IMO. H has referenced it a couple times in regards to SF lately. Somehow over the course of time I have really damaged his ego. It started with a conversation we had 15 yrs ago when we first met. I don't even remember it myself, but apparently we had a convo about my bf from right before him. This is a bf I dated for 1 1/2 yrs and yes, SF was not an issue for us, and he also had a lot of admiration for me, but other than that he was a total screw up and not at all the kindof guy I would want to be with long term. We remained friends until, well, about 40 pages ago when I got the 2x4's about male friends and went NC with him. As we were friends H heard me comment often about what a screw up he was, and to my knowledge I have NEVER ranted and raved about him sexually. If I said complimentary things 15 yrs ago it was trying to give an O&H response to H's questions, I'm sure. But that convo has stuck with him all these yrs as a measuring stick. I was more experienced than him pre M and he feels like I had a better SF relationship with others than with him. I have never made a point of talking about, comparing, etc. any past lovers to H, not ever. I have never said he isn't GOOD at SF either. But I have made it known I am not satisfied and he has taken that ball and run with it, IMO with a lot of DJ's about what that 'implies' even though I have not said or meant for it to imply those things. It is not that I feel he can't meet my SF needs, I think he could which is one of the most frustrating things, ya know?

Anyway we need to work on this ego/comparison issue. Not really sure what to do about that. Like I said, I have never compared him, told him he wasn't good at SF, criticized him, etc. I HAVE been O&H about questions regarding past relationships, and I have also been O&H about my own needs and/or whether they were being met or not. Now I feel like I can't/shouldn't be O&H about those things.

We have a lot of talking to do about this whole SF issue. Unfortunately whenever we approach the topic it is with bad, defensive and DJing attitude on his part and a whacked out, almost timid approach on my part so, how we work this out with those attitudes is beyond me.

What a mess.

Meanwhile there is no good SF anywhere in sight...

What do you think about talking to the coaching center about this? I don't want to imply that I am a 'special case' by any means, I know there are other women out there with a higher need for SF than just me. But I am the only woman I know that has this as a #1 need, that thinks like a man when it comes to sex. When the book describes the differences between men and women, arousal, etc.(very graphically holy mackeral), I pretty much fit into the men category. WTH? One would think I have a lot of testosterone causing an excess amount of hair and manly features and whatnot, thankfully that is NOT the case. If not testosterone what exactly causes this??? I still think I was cursed as a baby or something. In any case, this is one of our key issues right now and I wonder if we could use a little professional help on it, do you think the counseling center would be the way to go here?

I stand corrected then!

The part I struggle with is, when it comes to men and preventing them from wanking, it's like trying to take away a favorite toy. Men will hide it, wait until you're out of the house to play with it, and try to make sure "out of sight, out of mind" is the rule. Someone who is careful is also extremely difficult to detect.

His behavior as described in the thread that I've read thus far perfectly matches that of a chronic and frequent masturbator. A typical pattern of misdirection -- in general -- involves admitting to a little bit of something in order to deter detection that the individual is engaged in a LOT of something.

So while I'm optimistic on your behalf, I nevertheless suggest vigilance.

WOW...a lot here since I've been busy the last several days or so....

I will admit I have just skimmed, so, if I say something that's already been mentioned, forgive me. I have some thoughts that I think are possibly relevant and not yet covered.

While most men are attracted to the physical realm of beauty when it comes to SF, there is something to be said for psychological attractiveness as well. As a dual major in psyche and communications, I tend to think along psychological factors. I may be on target, however, and I may not be. I haven't finished the degree yet - so, take it as you will. lol

Most of us want what we can't have in a lot of ways. That's partially why A's are so exciting - forbidden fruit and all of that. We've all seen the movies and lived through high school: Susie likes Joe but Joe likes Mary, and so on... But, the minute Susie turns her attention to Gary, and Gary likes her back - Joe starts to think twice about Susie!

Is there any reason to think this dynamic goes away because two people are married for umpteen years? Obviously it manifests itself in a different,more subtle way, but the underlying desire mechanism is still there. I find, for instance, that if I want more attention from Mr. Sunny, the best way to get it isn't by being needy but by being interesting. Sometimes, you gotta draw someone in instead of beating them over the head, ya know?

In that vein, I did catch a comment someone made pages ago about maybe your H would be more attracted by you playing the "shy librarian" than the hot sexy momma - or something like that. Maybe that poster was on to something - that your H wants the chance to be the aggressor. Yeah, I realize you said you've laid off to see if he would initiate only to be disappointed - but what I'm talking about is something more than just "not initiating sex." It's about drawing him to you rather than having him run from you. One of his needs may indeed be that he is attracted to you more when he has to do more to catch you - if that makes sense.

I've seen this play out in my own life with my H (not about SF but other things).

As for the PA and whether or not your H's vision of it is realistic or not, I have to wonder, if again, it isn't more of a psychological thing. Maybe your H is all hopped up on your being even more fit because he is looking for something that justifies his lack of desire or in just wanting you to be different somehow, but not really getting to the bottom of what that is, whether consciously or subconsciously. He may need to dig deeper to look at what really is at the core of the issue here.

That's the beauty of the MB program. You can get the basics and work them and they do wonders for your marriage - but there are always new levels to explore; always something deeper to discover about yourself and your partner. In that way, you never reach "the end" because you are always learning and evolving.

I am just thinking there is something deeper going on here rather than him wanting you to be at a 20 year old's fitness level after 3 kids and so on.

Edited to add MB principle I forgot to mention: the need for admiration is often met when a man feels he has "won" you over in some way, or even when he is in protection mode. Something as silly as finding me the perfect pair of shoes I wanted (but couldn't find in my size) made my H feel good that he was doing something for me that I admired him for doing. AND...it made met my need for affection because I felt he cared enough to go to the trouble. I had started to tell him I could do it myself, etc... but I'm so glad I didn't!

In other words, men do like independent women but they also like the admiration they get from taking care of "their baby."

He just needs to explain how he wants the admiration need met today. Ok the chat about the ex dented that EN years ago, interesting to know, but what would he like today?

What about suggesting he do something for you he's really good at, massage or kissing, and you have to hold out from 'giving in' to him for as long as you can. I think he just wants a chance to be appreciated for what he's good at. If you can hold out for longer than x amount of time, you win. Maybe the prize can be no dishes!

Come up with as many silly ideas as you can and see which rings the enthusiasm bell.

Thanks for your thoughts DNM. I do not think this is the main issue. First off, I have not seen any behavior to indicate that he has a SSL that includes a large amount of self gratification and/or porn. He doesn't spend a lot of time on the computer (which is in the kitchen...or he sits on the couch with his ipad in plain view), he doesn't take his phone into the bathroom, etc. As far as self gratification, I guess that's anyone's guess. Not sure how to 'be vigilant' about that, unless I were to put some kind of recorder in the shower or other places he might steal away to do this. Ya, that ain't happening.

Also, keep in mind we do not have a normal SF relationship. By this I mean, perhaps in other relationships SF can be 'work,' but in our relationship, at least for the first decade, I was completely enthusiastic and even assertive about random OS (for him), quickies, etc. He has had easy sex with me where he did not have to find ways to get me interested or involved, do a lot of foreplay, etc. or even get me to seal the deal at the end. He has repeatedly over the years turned this down. Maybe I am totally off base on why a male uses self gratification but I thought it was because it was 'easy,' and if they can get 'easy' with additional visuals even, why would they chose not to? Which would indicate it isn't about 'easy' or a self gratification issue, but about other issues, wouldn't it?

Either way, the answer is, we are in recovery. That means he should and needs to be committed to doing whatever it takes to be O&H and recover this. If I feel like he is actually hiding some kind of SSL which is causing us to NOT recover, meet each others EN's, etc. I am just going to call it, not set up some kind of surveillance to catch him.

I know SunnyD I've been busy ya? Beating a dead horse, but at the end of the day the horse is still dead?

What you say here is REALLY impactful, and really hits home and I think is very relevant. I agree with all of it.

I am absolutely NOT good at 'playing hard to get,' by any stretch of the imagination. Men do like the chase. And I have had opportunities to witness his need to 'chase,' I call it the cat and mouse game. During the last 3 yrs during the rebellion stage, trickle truths, DDays, RA's, craziness in other words, there have been many times I have been much more distant just because of our situation. And H has also had to feel competitive, which is not a good thing nor am I saying that SHOULD happen. Just that it did. He definitely during this time exhibited a LOT more interest in me than he has ever shown. So yes, there is a lot of truth to this 'chase' psychology.

The problem I run into is this is an ongoing daily need of mine. I don't like to have to play hard to get and pretend I don't want or need it, to get him to 'chase' me. Feels like a big game, and I don't like it. KWIM?

Your second theory on H using PA to justify his lack of desire, when in reality it could be related to other things, is an interesting concept. I will not try and downsize his NEED for PA, or stop trying to meet that need by DJing that he must be mistaken that it actually IS a need. But I do think there may be some truth to this. Only because, I really am a very attractive woman. Not that I can't tone up a little, but even withOUT that I do not think I am unattractive enough to have that be a reason to not want SF. Maybe I really AM unattractive and I just have a modesty issue???

Thanks for the post, lots of good things to ponder.

Well, good thing I know how to do the dishes, cuz y'all know I can't hold out...And one would think the fact that I CAN'T hold out would be an ego BOOSTER right? Maybe we should make it like bull riding, I think I can make 8 seconds.

I think we are going to have a long chat about this whole ego/admiration thing today. I feel horrible about it. I love this man. It pains me to think that he has for years now felt inadequate as a lover. Because I love having SF with him and always have, which is why I want to do it all the time! I don't know what I did to feed into that, and I wish he had been O&H with me about it long before this! But you right, hopefully he can be O&H with me about it now and we can work through it and find ways to make him not feel that way moving forward.

I think you're really close. You're keen to be pleased, he's keen to please, there has to be a POJA solution there somewhere in a way he feels admired.

I WANT to admire him in the bedroom. But alas, I need to stop going to that as my 'fix all' don't I.

I know you don't want to play games or play hard to get - esp. on a daily basis, but I believe there are things that help in this area without resorting to games or pretending you don't need it. It's quite the balance!

As for the PA issue, I don't think you're being immodest and you are right to not DJ his requests on this front. But you know men: they are not always that in touch with their emotions or what's really going on underneath all the thoughts they're having. I'm not saying he needs psychotherapy...lol. I'm just thinking that if you work on some other things that appeal to his need for admiration and "chase" that maybe this need for the superwoman level of fitness may dissipate some, if not all. You'll only find that out by trial and error - by him coming to that realization.

In fact, it may serve you well to back off for a bit before pushing this issue further. If he is feeling the need to defend his position it will be harder for him to be O&H about it all - esp. when it comes to ego and admiration.

I'm not saying you shouldn't address it, of course. I'm saying that you need to assess whether it's been "nothing but" talk about all this lately and that perhaps you should focus on meeting a need or two of his, letting it rest for a couple of days, then going back to it.

You remember the definition of insane, right - doing something over and over the same old way, expecting different results.

What I meant is his need here seems to be to be admired sexually in a challenging situation. Not just wanted by you because of your drive but to feel like he's specifically doing something admirable. Probably the 'give us a chance to warm up' comments he's made is because he enjoys the initial responses from you as his fave type of admiration .

Dr H says some people are more 'people pleasers' than others. These people are sometimes more attracted to those who don't like them straight off because they like the feeling of seeing someone being won around. In marriage they respond well to being challenged in order to please.

I have a high admiration need and am a people pleaser so I rocked Plan A!