Are you saying he does not count food as an DS need? Well he is the expert on his own needs. It's good that he's specific.



Ask him to be specific.



Guess? Ask him to be specific.



So ask him to be specific. How often tomboy and when? How often girly girl and when? Can either look be improved?



Ask him to be specific and you will KNOW as opposed to think what the problem is.

And by POJA I mean the step by step version Dr H spells out.

POJA the DS need and SF need, STEP BY STEP.

The solution is in a dark room and you need your H to SPECIFICALLY tell you where it is. He can't see you either so you need to SPECIFICALLY describe your position.

If the solution to SF IS a PA need, then you need to POJA it with specific instructions to each other (if you don't know what petite means, ask!)

If the solution to SF is something else...admiration for example. POJA it with specific info.

Each and every step of POJA.

Which includes, by law, enthusiasm.

[/quote]

I don't think Dr H would. Its Ok if you don't MIND the work and enjoy the results but Dr H encourages people to enjoy their lives and careers. It is not a long term solution to be actively unhappy about such a large chunk of your day.

I am really unsure of why you feel you must do something that you don't like, and which your H has said he does not require and would be happy to hire someone else to do.

Its just a huge waste of energy.

Why?

It is not being a taker to make yourself happy in a way your H approves of. He approves of FC. Plus it would involve the elements of DS you are enthusiastic about So you can make HIM happy too.

It IS being a taker to demand or do IB without POJA.

Right now, your DS policy is being a giver, without POJA and that is DISASTROUS to give like that.

You should not give.
You should not take

You should only POJA

Caaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaareful. What, exactly, are you finding unrealistic?

The fact that at 5'10, in a size 6, in a normal body range, he should want me to be more petite. If that means 'smaller' (think jockey), it is physically impossible. If that means 'thinner,' I think that is definitely unrealistic, to want to see a woman who is 5'10 to be LESS THAN a size 6. Disagree if you like, but I think the ladies will back me up here.

At the risk of having a DJ of his true intentions here, I will presume nothing until I clarify further with him though. These are just random things he has said, not in one, well thought out, well orchestrated conversation, which it sounds like we need to have.

I must say this whole conversation is getting me down! I felt like we were doing so good. Now I feel like we are doing close to everything wrong, and it is just a matter of time before it all implodes.

I was ridden HARD about bucking up and meeting this DS need. I am doing what I can to meet that. Now apparently I am just giving and sacrificing and it will all blow up in my face.

I have been working hard to try and find ways to 'inspire' H to meet my SF needs. But clearly that is not working either. Frankly, even the thought that is PA related kinda makes me...resentful. Oh yes it does. Not because he should just accept me for who I am, but because I am in a normal body range, shave my legs, do my hair, wear makeup, get pedis now, show cleavage and even show leg on a regular basis because I know he likes it. And frankly, I am a good looking woman. Exactly how MUCH do you do to meet this need, ya know?

Which indicates it is not PA related and I am just royally screwing up somewhere with demands or expectations that I should somehow, in some way, get this SF need met. IDK.

This is all a lot of confusing work.

Indie, I will ask him some of these questions, and ask him to be more specific. But you write in detail, I write in detail, H, like many men, is not obsessed with the details, specifically when it comes to relationships. I will not be surprised if he doesn't specifically even KNOW what he wants, or what he is lacking, or what he needs. But maybe that's a DJ to even say.

I would agree. He could simply mean he wants you to wear flat shoes because he likes your true height. Or clothes which emphasize petite fetures instead of bulky layers. Its impossible to know.

Also it isn't unrealistic to express a preference which you don't like (eg fake nails which make RC and DS hard to do) it is unrealistic to demand without hearing your POV, but it is not unrealistic to give you a starting point for the negotiation.

If your assumption about the weight was true, even though you would class that as unrealistic, you'd still POJA it.

First you'd just thank him for telling you that weight is an important issue for him. Then ask for specifics on what he means, ie when did he find your weight most attractive, what would he like you you 'do' about it. Then as part of the POJA you'd repeat HIS POV and responses back so he'd know you were listening. Then you'd give your POV that you don't believe your weight CAN be any lower and be healthy too. Then you'd brainstorm solutions, listing as many as possible on paper, which take both POVs into account. If you see a solution you like - he wants you to see a nutritionist and you don't mind that or he wants you to tone and you love Pilates, you have a POJA solution.

If you see no joint solution the POJA default is to do nothing. But by simply completeing the POJA process you've responding to his concerns and showed you won't dismiss his concerns. Even ones that seem 'unrealistic'at first. See?

Oh no! I think you are both in good shape because you are both keen to meet needs. Its just important you don't go too far and overdo it by sacrificing.

Plus Dr H is fine with short term sacrifice, which is all you've done. When he wanted to move away from their home community, Joyce saw it as sacrifice. She said she was willing to sacrifice short term as a trial and if it looked like she wasn't enjoying it they'd have to moive back to prevent it becoming a long term sacrifice.

You now see his DS need as important and worthy of effort. Amazing! You've trialled doing DS yourself (which is giving it a real go) and it isn't something you can enthusiastically POJA into long term. That's all. But you still see his need as important. Brilliant.



No no no. You ARE meeting the need. You are just exploring the best way to meet the need. The best way may be a housekeeper...or something else entirely.



Its not complicated - just ASK!

'What would make you more enthusiastic? What would make sex more fulfilling for YOU"

And he HAS given you info in the past that had ZERO to do with cleaning.



This is a complaint that is so easy to resolve

A) stop being whatever he specifically identifies as 'aggressive'
B)POJA who initiates and how
C)stop making the references he dislikes.

If you have done this and there's still a prob ask for further feedback on what ELSE you can do.

I have a strong feeling it is to do with demands and his preference for initiating.

It's going, going, going.... GONE! Home run Indie!


Your state of conflict/withdrawal kind of clouds it, UW.


A buyer takes a spousal complaint as an OPPORTUNITY, not something that is impossible or unrealistic.

You could start working out together, or you could go out and upgrade your wardrobe using PoJA (it's a nice little exercise in how to PoJA and avoid DJ's, AO's, and SD's).


Or, it could be as simple as not going without makeup at home, and not always being in your "lounge clothes." It used to be somewhat hurtful to me that FWW would put more effort into looking nice to go to the store than she would for me, and I don't even rank PA in my top 5.

Where's the bow icon?



That's because her dressing up more for you than others is an affection need, not a PA need.

You wanted her to show you you were more important = affection

My friend who has sex all the time (as I've been in Plan B for a year, I HATE her!) Ranks SF as her seventh need.

But her H kisses her with two hands on the face and his hands in her hair. He also strokes the top of her shoulders with his fingertips and says affectionate things.

She is CONSTANTLY getting new lingerie so she can have her affection need met during sex. She has no interest in sex itself alone but enjoys it when combined with affection.

Well, we had date night last night. I dressed pretty cute. Skirt that is ill advised for a woman of my age (above the knee) and I could tell H kinda liked that.

We did casually get into the SF topic at dinner. I approached it as 'what can I do to help you become more enthusiastic about it' and he got kinda mad. He said I needed to accept the fact that we just have two different drives and he will never have the drive I do.

I pushed about how I thought we maybe had a bad dynamic going, that maybe I was too 'demanding' about my needs. I also brought up the thought that my drive was making him feel like he can never satisfy me, etc. We did discuss things but I think overall he felt like I was expecting him to be enthusiastic about sex when he just doesn't have the drive I do, and that was unfair. Even though I kept reitterating that I just want to find ways that I can help him be more enthusiastic about it, whatever that means.

He agreed that the ego thing is an issue, that he feels like many times he has disappointed me. I said that is not the case and asked him what I can do to change that perception, but he really didn't give me an answer.

So, IDK where to go from here. Frankly I am a little bit frustrated with this whole SF thing. My instigating and sexual advances are apparently 'demanding,' so obviously I have to stop doing that. My sexual flirting is 'vulgar' so apparently I can't do that. I'm sorry to be negative thinking but I have years of experience telling me that I am pretty much going to not get that need met for awhile if I don't instigate or make advances, because he won't if I don't. Somehow my drive alone, regardless of all of the many, many complimentary things I have told him over the years, has made him feel like he will never satisfy me, yet I have NO IDEA how to change that. I can't even get straight answers as to what I can do to help him become more enthusiastic, even though I am willing to do those things. I feel quite rejected today.

Curse this drive of mine!

Feeling a little crabby right about now.

Yes he has. Nice feet = check. Legs = the next DAY I went and bought new shorts and have been wearing shorts all summer, and a skirt last night so, check. Cleavage = has ALWAYS been a check. In fact, I regulary take sexy pictures of myself, cleavage, sometimes more and send them to him at work to spice up his day. Be more petite = well this is one that I have not worked hard on this summer. I will work harder on it, yet I am not exactly enthusiastic about not being attractive enough to have sex with at a size 6, good grief.




He couldn't give me specifics, just overall that my attitude is aggressive, I guess.


I almost always initiated for the first decade, since DDay H has initiated more, but thats not sustainable because its in response to my resentment and withdrawal. If I wait for him to initiate I am not getting this need met, period.


Again, I don't specifically know what these are. But I have been working hard to just make a call on whether something is flirty or aggressive before I say or do it. Although may I say it now stands out to me that HE makes 'vulgar' references too. Maybe I trained him to do this, but now I tell him he shouldn't, if he wants me to be more subtly flirty then he should do that too.


I have made changes and it hasn't seemed to make a big difference because, I am STILL frustrated with SF and still complaining about it on this thread.

I have asked him more than once now what I could do to make him enthusiastic about SF, yet what about me? Obviously I am not feeling like this need is filled but that doesn't even seem to be a concern. I am thinking of every way possibly to try and wrangle a man into bed, that's frustrating.

OK Indie call me out on this post because I am sure there are some DJ's and demands in here somewhere.

What do you mean by this, specifically?



We used to work out together but haven't this summer, primarily because of H's health issues. In fact in the beginning I worked working out together as part of our UA time. This fell through because H didn't want to do that, not because I didn't. I have also done some clothes shopping this summer. I HAVE taken his complaints as an opportunity, and I feel like I have acted on them, ALL of them. I have asked him on more than one occasion what I can do to make him more enthusiastic, and any specific things he has told me I have acted on. And for the last couple of months I have done it with NO RESENTMENT, and no conflict and no withdrawal. Yet somehow you seem to think I am still f ing this up royally.



I always wear makeup, even when we do extreme camping trips I bring eyeliner and lipstick to still feel like a girl when we are not showering for days. I am a SAHM mom who cleans half the day and so ya, I have my 'day' clothes on when H comes home from work but I always dress up when we go out together somewhere. I never wear sweat pants or 'lounge clothes' or sit around with no makeup on.

Maybe you should and see what happens? LOL Just a thought. Perhaps you intimidate him in a way.

Just throwing ideas around. Maybe he wants a shy school marm or something? I don't know. rambling....

It's going to take time, unwritten.

When you are exhibiting 'resentment and withdrawal' is that because there's been no SF?

Or is it the more general resentment of betrayal?

How do you express it?

This may be the key to it

I think a big stumbling block is you think if you change something, he will respond immediately.

The thing with demands, is it takes time to trust that the demands have stopped. You will be tested to see whether the demands have stopped.



He got mad because he was expecting a demand past on past history.

He will need to see you demonstarte a lack of demands over time.

I would also stop PUSHING and talking about what YOU think when asking what HE thinks.

If he has no answer, say 'OK. I am interested if you think of something that would be fun for you'

Put the emphasis on allowing him to tell you stuff, rahter than on the 'bad dynamic' affecting your need.

That is the known quantity. We are trying to get at the unknown quantity.

I find it interesting you used the word 'push'. Any kind of pushing will have a 'demand' flavour all over it. Your H is on hyper senstivie lookout for anything 'pushy'

Dr Harley:

"If I push my request, making it a demand, what am I doing? I am trying to override her reluctance. I am declaring that my wishes are more important than her feelings. And I'm threatening to cause her some distress if she doesn't do what I want."



You need a softly, softly, catchee monkey approach.

Cheerful.

Rather than "What can we do to get you more enthusiastic about meeting my need"

say

"OK. Tell me if you can think of anything fun in bed. I want you to have more fun."

Then resume cheerful light conversation and DROP it.

He's hardly likely to come up with a solution on the spot when he's never been asked his opinion before.

Don't PUSH.

It's the frustration and wrangling that is causing the problem!

CALM DOWN.

Is it worth speaking to Dr Harley?

I personally would feel a lot calmer if i hear an expert say 'this can be done' or 'Ive done it many times'

You know pushing doesnt work....

So....you have nothing to lose by stopping, breathing and relaxing for a bit.

So I should have a need, want to have that need met, yet pretend I could care less about it? Just wear short skirts, show a little cleavage, and hang around hoping that at some point it will be enough to turn H on, wait around for HIM to initiate sex when he wants it and completely ignore all the times that I want it that go unmet?

I know I am being defensive and I'm sorry, I am just frustrated. It is frustrating to be a BS, struggling to get a need met (and may I add he didn't have the OW clean his house, he had SEX with her while I was going with the need unmet), jumping through hoops to try and make your spouse enthusiastic to meet that need, and still not getting it met. And being told that I am doing it all wrong and I need to now do X, Y or Z better or just, it seems, ignoring the need altogether because asking for it to be met is apparently the main issue.

What I have to lose, Indie, is getting this need met AT ALL. I don't get it met as much or in the ways that I like, but at least I get something when I push. If I completely back off and pretend I don't even need it (which seems a little contradictory to the O&H need), I will likely get far LESS of it than I do now.

I'm not saying it should continue as it has been, or that I have a right to make demands, if that is what I have indeed been doing. I am just saying that there is a downside to NOT making those demands too, I guess.

I'm done talking about this SF thing. I am just waiting for NeverGuessed or HHH to get on here and tell me to stop being a big drama queen and stop whining and just POJA it.

This is also frustrating to me. I am the one who is on this board, asking for help, not him. I am the one who brings up the topic to brainstorm ideas on how to fix it. I am the one who already goes ABOVE AND BEYOND in the bedroom to meet his needs, I cannot IMAGINE what he could possibly want in the bedroom that he does not already have access to. I have always been willing to do whatever he needed to make it a pleasurable experience for him. Since I have been on here, I have gone to HIM to ask HIM what HE NEEDS to be more invested and enthusiastic about this. Only once has he said he wants to meet this need and asked me what I would like for him to do to meet it. I answered with some very specific things which he totally ignored. So I am getting a little frustrated that this keeps coming back to the fact that I am doing something wrong.