Thank you BH I was going to reply that I have read Dr Harley say that EN's DO and CAN change over time, and that has been my experience too.

But I also agree Indie that you can focus on EN's that are not being met vs ones that are, and also that EN's can be confused.

Yes he has agreed he has a higher need for PA then he has let on. It would be hard for me to share this with my spouse because it is a very personal thing, and I would never want to hurt his feelings. I don't know if that played a role in him not identifying this need or not, for me it would. And I have taken it personally... But I have also responded to it. P90X workout day 2 and it kicked my a$$!

He has made requests for admiration since DDay, because he knows that my admiration for him was shot. Likewise his own self admiration was shot. But considering the fact that I gave him boatloads of admiration before that (for over a decade), and he did NOT respond to it at all really, that would indicate that admiration is indeed NOT a top EN for him, wouldn't it?

Before he redid the EN questionnaire this time, he listened to Dr Harley's audio explanation of each EN, and specifically answered it based on that. So he did put time and care into getting it right. For instance, O&H, which I originally put as my top EN, is really not even in the top 5 for me and I put it there during the midst of all the trickle truthing and DDay stuff, before a poly. O&H seemed like a paramount need at that moment in time. But, as Dr Harley describes it, the O&H need is really when you feel your love bank grow based on your spouse giving you intimate details about their life (something like that, I didn't relisten yet myself, just going based on memory). I really don't have a need for that kind of O&H.

One EN that I never rated very high until now is FC. I grew up in a small town in a working class family, and have never really cared about money. Even though I am educated and expected to be middle class, I never expected to have more than what I needed to get by, and that was just fine with me. But H is incredibly gifted in business (and in many other ways), brilliant, etc. and has been very successful and that only continues to grow. It has just been in the last couple of yrs that he has provided in a way where money is no object really, I mean not Oprah Winfrey no object, but day to day bill paying, traveling, etc. is not an issue. Since that has been the case I have noticed that I feel incredibly spoiled and lucky, and it totally fills my love bank. I feel taken care of. A couple times recently we have taken my whole extended family out for dinner, and H has paid the bill, and it totally fills my LB because I feel like he is taking care of me AND my family! I love my family and am very generous, when I think about ways to spend money it is usually help out our family with college, or contribute to my non profit, etc. When H is very generous that fills my LB too. So as I'm writing this I am starting to wonder if this is one of those confusions you are talking about, is this really an FC need or something else? The need to feel 'taken care of.' I guess that doesn't just apply to money, I like to be with a guy who is jealous and protective of me too, we just had this conversation the other night because H isn't protective at all in this manner and I feel like its a huge love buster. Anyway, I guess theres a question for you, whether this is an FC need as I have identified it to be, or some other need instead.

We really should have a coach for this.

I meant FS for financial support, not FC for family commitment.

With regards to meeting EN's, and how to shuffle them, I know Dr Harley suggests focusing on the top 3-5, but I try to focus on the ones I am failing at the most.

DS for instance, which is #2. DS is something I fail miserably at, which is why it needs to take precedence as a work in progress. And its #2, very impactful to H, so that makes it even more important to focus on.

PA is either 5 or 6, so not very high really, but it affects my H's desire for SF and Admiration to me, which are my #1 and #2, so that is why I focus on the PA. And because that need for admiration means it kills me to think H doesn't think I'm HOT! Guess that is a double edge sword, I don't fill his PA need, then his perception of me makes me feel not admired, or something like that.

RC is his #1 and its not that I don't consider it, as part of UA time I do of course, but overall I have already been doing good at RC time since we share so many hobbies, so no need to focus on the wheel that ain't broken.

I think I blog to much on here, leaves lots of holes to get called out on. But I guess thats how I learn too, so have at it.

Look at you go!

RH is VITAL, though Unwritten. Without it means you're working in the dark without the light of truth. There is no POJA without honesty. I would thank him for his honesty here. Doesn't mean you cant be honest back about your feelings.



I would agree with the way you prioritise. If its working, work on stuff that isnt. The only danger is stopping important ENs that DO work in favour of lesser ENs that DONT. But you seem aware of that danger.



Yes I would agree with you there, if he didn't respond (or says he never felt a response) then it's prob not a high EN.

This puzzles me somewhat. If your H tells you he has a high PA need, then that is a compliment surely? Someone with a high PA need would have chosen a pretty wife (and you do sound super hot!)

Why is admitting to a high PA need the same as hurting feelings?

Saying you dont meet it, or meet it any more is more hurtful, but I guess I dont fully understand why it being rated as high is hurtful?

Like I said, the list isnt put in order of what is not being met....

PA is actually NOT that high, 5 or 6 so in the middle somewhere. Why is it hurtful? Well I guess that goes back to my need for admiration somewhat. I highly desire H to think I am hot, adore me, desire me, etc. That totally fills my need for admiration. When he does not have any of those feelings, it makes me feel highly UNadmired. So telling me that he is not happy with my PA hurts my need for admiration. And my pride, I suppose.

The list isn't put in order of what is not being met. But some needs are more intimate and personal than others. Such as me telling H that he is not meeting my need for SF, that is very intimate and personal, and a challenge to his ego. Whereas if my top need was DS and I said he was not meeting that need and needed to take the trash out more, I doubt that would have the same impact. For a woman to hear that she is not meeting a PA need is very personal, IMO.

Oh ok, I just wasn't sure about the order of the list....



Yeah I have to agree and also that the emotional reaction is linked to a woman's desire to be admired physically.

My H had a high PA need, like number 2 and he was always bragging about my looks, which obviously I liked (admiration is my number two need).

One time though he said something about my legs that offended me greatly. I am really petite and I'm never going to have long slim legs, they let me down and are my worst feature IMO.

One time he said he bet that if I ofund the right exercise programme they'd be much better (he said it calmly and respectfully too) and I just lost it. My lovebusting technique was to have AOs so I compeltely made the subject taboo and it was never mentioned again.

Of course I would do things differently now!

I read Dr H's article on how to negotiate POJA if you are an emotional person recently and I was thinking that would have come in really handy for me back then.

Now it's not so much of a big deal. Having to Plan A cured me of speaking before I think.

But I think I would use it if I felt I was approaching a topic that made me feel emotional.

Dr H says there are many upsides to being emotional, and knowing myself as I do, I sure hope so!

I don't consider myself emotional but I also didn't consider myself as demanding or DJing so...who knows.

I think we take the most personal the things we hate about OURSELVES. For instance, I have big saskwatch feet. I am 5'10 and wear a size 11. They are slender feet but big, I have to be careful with the shoes I buy as some definitely make them LOOK saskwatch and others make them look smaller than they are. Anyway, I like em. I make jokes about them myself. If someone says I have saskwatch feet I would laugh along with them, it wouldn't bother me in the least.

My stomach is another matter. Before I got married I had rock hard 6 pack abs. Then I got pg with our first, and was on bedrest for 4-5 months. I relied heavily on H to bring me healthy foods (he didn't) and I could obviously do nothing to manage weight gain. So I gained a LOT (60lbs) and my stomach got all stretched out and crazy looking. It was not a fun pregnancy by any means, I was majorly depressed during and after.

During pregnancy and after H treated me like a leper. I lost the weight with the first baby in less than a yr, not from working out as much as depression and stress I think. But even after the weight loss my stomach looked like a water balloon that had filled with water and left for a year. Just never going to be the same. I hate it! And I would LOVE to have the 6 pack back, but instead I added 2 more pregnancies and the rest is history. No matter what kind of weight I lose or how many ab workouts I do, my abs will never be the same, without going under the knife that is. I feel like that is my only option. So my point to all this is I do take the comments about my stomach very personally because until I was 29 my abs were rockin, and I mourn them and I hate these flabby mom abs more than anything so, its a sore spot KWIM?

I honestly plan to just go through with the surgery. Can't do it until the spring because I have a race season to think about, but when that is over I will. I am NOT enthusiastic about many things; going through with a painful surgery, going through a painful recovery, spending that kind of money on vanity, being the kind of woman who resorts to plastic surgery, the list could go on. I wish I didn't feel the need to try and get that level of perfection again, I am afterall a 40 yr old mom of 3, not a 20 something single woman. But I do feel that pressure. I AM enthusiastic about having my abs back though.

My H never brags about my looks. Before DDay H never complimented me on my looks. I honestly don't remember a single time. He is a grass is greener kinda guy, and he would compare me to others a lot (in a 'you fall short' kinda way) and I would be insulted, but never did he seem to be impressed by me. OW#2 he ranted and raved about for YEARS as the one that got away, when I finally met her I was like...what? is this it?...she was cute, I am more on the 'beautiful' end of the spectrum. Or we would meet a woman who was the wife of someone he worked with and he would say, 'wow so and so did really well for himself!' and I would say, 'um, YOU did well for YOURself.' But he just never saw it that way. (His words, not mine.)

Now after DDay he does say I'm beautiful here and there. I don't really believe he feels that way, which I'm sure is a DJ. I don't mean to DJ but after all those yrs of him feeling and behaving otherwise, which was very hurtful to me, it is hard to believe he just sees me differently now. Just seems like a check in the box of admiration you know? That's the hard part of having many yrs of history, there is a lot of rewiring that has to happen to ACCEPT need meeting to some extent.

It is just hard to have everyone else see me as beautiful and not him, ya know? He is really the only one I care about.

So when you say 'its just a need, don't take it personal' I hope you can see there is a lot more to it than that, I guess.

then that's enthusiasm

Sounds like contrast effect is a problem. I'm sure people can chime in with tips here, he can't be the first H to do this. And the way he meets your admiration need also sounds like a problem.

Hmmm not reaaaally a DJ. He isnt meeting your need in the way you want and it's fine to say so. We usually need to see enthusiasm alongside the effort in order to really 'trust' the need meeting effort.

As the person with the need, it's your role to encourage his enthusiasm and it sounds like you're doing that process.

Oh I do. Been there done that myself, after all. And I would still feel it today. But there is also a lot more than we first think to controlling our emotions in order to encourage honesty and calm negotiation while being honest about those emotions. You sound like you're doing that, though.

Does anyone have any links to what Dr Harley says about the 'contrast effect?' I see it used here and there and would like more info on its true definition and what Dr H says about it.

Historical Honesty
What is sexual addiction
Together When You're the Happiest

Thanks BH.

Dear unwritten:

EXACTLY.

Following this portion of your thread with interest.

I don't meet my husband's PA need either - never have, and never will. He has said I was beautiful maybe once or twice in the past 30 years. Sometimes he says my clothes or jewelry are "nice."

He likes one part of my body, and it's the body part I LEAST want to be liked for. (When we counseled with Jennifer, she suggested that my husband write me a compliment each day. He did this for a year, and I kept them in a book. I had hundreds of compliments about this particular body part, and ONE compliment about my face, because I specifically asked him to PLEASE write something about my face).

All the other body parts? Anything I could do would need to be surgical, and for my worst-offending body part (legs) there IS no surgery to correct them. Genetically, these are the legs I got; I have a family album full of women with this trait. (Exercise will not help - my sister is a marathon runner and still has the same problem).

In one of our MANY past discussions about his affairs, I asked him WHY those particular OW. He said OW#1 was the "hot" girl that everyone wanted, but she wanted him. That made him feel great. He spent most of his time with her out with other friends. He NEVER brought me around these friends.

OW #2, he said, had great conversation with him; he said conversation with her was a "10." Also, she had a better figure - she was "in proportion." (I am a size 0-2 on top and a size 10 on bottom, obviously not "in proportion").

When I asked my husband what my "10(s)" were, he said (in order), frugality, hard-worker/good earner and I stayed with him even though he had affairs (loyalty, I guess). My looks are a "6" and my conversation is "fine," but he says he doesn't care because I'm "the whole package." He admits that I'm very smart (academically) and that I have talent (I'm beginning to have some success with an artistic talent I have), but that these aren't qualities he needs or particularly admires in a spouse; if he remarried in the future, in fact, he would not want these qualities in his next spouse. (said in the context of a "hypothetical" conversation - one of the many non-MB conversations we have had over the years).

Some additional info: my husband has not been steadily employed since 2008, so the "whole package" includes my ability to work and support us and provide health insurance. OW #2 was a financial and domestic mess; problems he would never want deal with "in real life."

Ever read the novel or see the movie "Washington Square?" I often feel like Catherine and see my husband as Morris when he returns years later.

So, he'd rather have be with someone who is approaching average across the board than someone who has "10s" but maybe some 1s or zeroes. My good qualities, he doesn't like. This does not make me feel admired; in fact, it makes me feel RESENTFUL (which is why I started reading your thread).

My husband says I fill all of his ENs; I guess I just hate his ENs? (I should say my husband is not intentionally mean to me; all of the things he said were in the context of trying to make me feel better).

Some venting here, obviously. I certainly don't want to thread-jack you - just wanted to let you know there is someone else out there in the same boat.

BV

Thanks for sharing your story broken. T/J away, it is through the simple blogging (and responses to that) where I seem to learn the most. Things that exist that I didn't even know existed until they were pointed out to me from a blog that didn't even ask a question, you know?

The PA need is tough. Especially when you feel like your natural body (ie not something that can be changed) is just never going to be good enough. How do you ever feel like you are meeting that need for PA, or not let it impact your self esteem? Especially when you have OW's that you feel met the PA need more.

I don't have any answers, clearly. Speaking of PA, I have to go do my 3rd workout in a row. I am SORE man I can barely walk up stairs, normally I do not get so sore doing these workouts I must have been more out of shape then I thought or something.

I realize I'm skipping 88 posts to respond to this, but any man who's not interested in the woman offering herself to him has one of three things going on:

1. Low testosterone. Get it checked out by a doctor. There are creams, shots, and more to solve the problem. There is no excuse for a man of any age these days to not have the hormonal drive of a twenty-year-old if he could use it.

2. Self gratification. Particularly as men age, the women our own age seem increasingly unattractive due to "contrast effect" if we are engaging in even moderate, casual use of pornography and self-gratification.

3. Lastly, he may not find you attractive. This is an entire topic of its own that I don't want to spend too much time exploring. If the previous two possibilities have been thoroughly investigated and found inaccurate, then chasing down this course may be useful. Treatments range from the very shallow -- wear red lipstick instead of pink, for example -- to much deeper (latent homosexuality, sexual aversion, etc.). Those latter reasons are the reason I hesitate to bring it up unless you've very thoroughly investigated the two former, much-more-likely options. Including snooping, if need be.

I suppose this is where I am lucky. OW was dumpy and round with poor skin and a bad dye job. Many people disbelieved exposure based purely on they didn't believe hed go for her. Always felt sorry for her in fact. But if you asked WH he'd say she was 'little, cute and dark'. He said this around the time he decided that I 'looked old'

Waywards can't really be trusted in their assessment of OWs PA because they forever have drunk wayward goggles on where she's concerned.

Bottom line is they should never have put us through that contrast effect. You can't compete with something that's not real.

Plus a beautiful OW would have to be extra crazy/dumb/skanky if she can't attract her own man.