Well, H got back his health tests and everything seems rather normal, including his T levels. Which means that it really IS just me, at least thats how I usually feel. His Dr, when he took the test, actually told him that most of the time when a man of his age comes in asking for a T level test, it is really because their wife is just not attractive. F er. H has some photos on his phone that could have closed that argument down rather quickly.

IDK, I've kinda given up on getting my SF need met. Not the MB way but I am really at a loss and don't know where to go from here. I guess I don't even have a question, because all of you have given me much advice already. I have taken most of it (I think), talked to H about his feelings regarding SF, tried to do specific things PA related to increase his attraction to me, totally laid off on the SD's and actually I have toned down my constant sexuality, instigation, suggestion, etc. remarkably well (to a fault sometimes). H has gotten his T levels and other health things tested, and has started a regiment of nutritional supplements to try and increase his health and drive. None of it has made a damn bit of difference. Honestly, since I have laid off on the sexual advances I have had far LESS sex than I used to, which is kindof what I was expecting I guess.

Its a hopeless cause.

I know someone will say something about my spouse being 'unwilling to meet my needs' but he has put some effort in. Also, what about ENTHUSIASTIC participation. If you ask H, he will just say he has a much lower need/drive than me, and he just can't help the fact that he doesn't think about sex all the time. If we POJA'd, for instance, 5 times a week, but he is only enthusiastic and wants to 2 times a week, then should he still do the other 3 times just because it was POJA'd, when he isn't enthusiastic about it? Frankly, I have gotten very, IDK, sensitive is the right word I guess, to the fact that I do not WANT to have sex with someone who does not fully WANT to have sex with me, so that would not be something I would be enthusiastic about either (even though I want to have sex with him). WOW, here goes my brain again making a pretzel out of this topic. Seems like it should be SO MUCH more simplistic than this, man+woman=good time. Nope.

Meanwhile, I am pent up, almost always. But I don't complain and I don't talk about it, because that would likely come across as demanding and would put pressure on him which he has already stated is a turn off. Plus, everyone and their mother knows that I have an unnaturally high SF need and don't get it filled, why continue to complain when he already knows it.

And its gotten quite cold here so cleavage and leg is going in the closet for the winter. Pedicures won't be visable under my SmartWool socks either.

So, there's my update.

So here's my other issue I deal with right now with regards to H. I do think it stands in the way of recovery, but I don't really know how to address it.

H in general has a very bad attitude about life. He is def a glass is half empty kinda guy. Stoic, anxious, uptight frankly. Makes him GREAT at his job, not so much fun to live with. He complains a lot, about things he doesn't have, vs valuing the things he DOES have. He sees the negative in things far sooner than he sees the positive. The grass is almost always greener somewhere else.

It isn't very fun to live with. My daughter nicknamed him Mr Crabs after the Spongebob Squarepants cartoon. He is in general very crabby, almost always.

Add to that health issues. He has been unhealthy for the last 5 yrs. It has really taken a toll on him. He complains about our middle child not having the ability to handle things, not being resilient, and talks about how resilient he (H) is, and I think, um NO you are not resilient! Because he complains about his health issues all the time, and is complaining about SOMEthing all the time (just like middle child). I don't want to sound uncompassionate towards his issues, I just get tired of hearing negativity and complaining ALL THE TIME. Negativity surrounds me, drives me crazy.

If you all can believe it, I am the laid back, happy, positive person in our house! I know right.

I just wish for once he would walk in and say, life is GREAT, I'm so happy and so lucky and so blessed. I love my life! I don't remember ever hearing that, just this hurts or that hurts or life sucks for XYZ fill in the reason.

How do I address this with him, without sounding mean, belittling, etc. Is 'bad attitude' some kind of LB? I guess it is for ME. It has always bothered me, but especially after everything we've been through and how far we've come, seems to me he should see things in a new perspective.

I do blame this attitude somewhat for the A's. I feel like he always sees ME as 'glass half empty,' IOW the qualities I don't possess (or needs I don't fill, I guess) vs those I do. Grass has always been greener when comparing me to other women. So his attitude is kindof a trigger for me, or at least something that makes me feel unsafe.

Plus, I just want to start having fun in life. Life's too short to spend it as miserable as I have been for the last few years.

Unwritten, I can only imagine how frustrated you are. And I'm sorry that I don't have any further advice to give. You said he was taking supplements but I would encourage your husband to take anti-depressants (maybe they'll work the opposite on his drive) and/or try some mood boosting vitamins.

Hugs to you friend. Whether you want to believe it or not, you deserve to be happy.

Have you thought of e-mailing the radio show and asking for Dr. Harley's advice?

Thanks RQ. We did discuss him asking the Dr about AD's but then he ended up not even asking. Not because he doesn't think they will help, as much as because he has his mind wrapped around the stereotypes and social stigma attached to AD's. It isn't really off the table though.

Don't think that will help with the SF issues though, isn't a side affect of AD's decreased sex drive? Rock, meet hard place.

I have thought about having a session with SH to discuss the SF issues specifically. Guess I could also email the show as well.

Not all AD meds affect the sex drive. If you ask your doctor specifically about that, he might be able to recommend one. My H took wellbutrin for a number of years and it didn't affect his drive or "performance" at all. Made him feel a lot better during a long period of intense work stress. Years before, he was on Zoloft which did cause pretty severe SF problems.

Now, as to the T-levels, if your H is having sexual experiences that do not include you, then a waning sexual desire for his wife is very often the result. May not have an immediate effect, but it will almost certainly affect his sexual desire for real life sex with his wife.

Dr. Harley recommends SF 2 or 3 times a week, times determined when planning UA.

If you are referring to masturbation and/or porn, he is not doing that (or at least he should not be, says he isn't, will be in trouble if I find out he is...). If you are referring to 'other' sexual experiences that do not include me, well, same rules apply I guess

There are many people on here who talk about having a much more active sex life than 2-3 times a week. Some, daily, which is what I would prefer. 2 times a week is not a level of SF I would POJA.

OK I'm thoroughly confused. I was just reading an article 'How to meet the need for SF:Part 2' (I'd link the whole thing but I don't know how...)

It is a letter from a WOMAN (thank you God) who's H doesn't want SF as much as her. Well, I am disappointed in some of the response from Dr H, who indicates that for women it is often a need for acceptance of some sort. I HATE hearing that, because for me it truly is a straight out SF need and almost everyone assumes it is a mistaken need for something else. But, here is one paragraph of the advice given:

"One solution to your problem is to make love once a day, at a time that he has the most energy, say in the morning. Another, is to compromise: If he makes love to you every other day, he can pick the time and place, but if two days goes by without sex, at 7:30 the next morning you've got an appointment!"

So, after much discussion in my thread about SF, of ALL the EN's specifically SF, needing to be done completely enthusiastically by BOTH spouses, how does this apply??? It doesn't seem in this case like Dr H is being considerate to the H's lack of enthusiasm for this (ie if 2 days go by come hell or highwater the deed will be done...). I'm not trying to second guess Dr H here, just royally confused about what my EXPECTATION should be, more or less.

H and I HAVE had an agreement somewhat like this, basically we POJA'd at one point that every night we WOULD have SF, unless one of us said 'no thanks.' IOW, expect it, unless you say no thanks, rather than not expect it until someone instigated it. We were having quite a bit of SF when that was implemented. But then I had this whole convo on my thread about how I had Selfish Demands with regards to SF, and he felt pressured, and then he agreed and said that this POJA'd agreement made him feel pressured...and then it just went to hell in a handbasket.

But according to this letter/response from Dr H, this kind of agreement is OK, even with regards to SF.

I am confused about how this whole SF, POJAing, enthusiastic agreement relationship works here. How do I POJA SF, without it becoming a SD or making H feel pressured to have SF at a time when he is not enthusiastic about, and does he ALWAYS have to be enthusiastic about it, and if he DOES how do we POJA this? Indie where are you? I know you will have some things to say about this.

Many people do indeed have SF more than 2 - 3 times per week, absolutely. But 2 - 3 times per week is at least a reasonable expectation in marriage. Would your H be at least enthusiastic about that level--to start with? At 2 - 3 times per week, you would at least have your need for SF met to some degree.

Yes, I was talking about porn and masturbation. It's a subject that hits close to home. When my H admitted to masturbation once or twice a week years ago, he was understating the truth. In the Personal History questionnaire, he confessed to more like 3 or 4 times per week. It had a devastating effect on our sex life. We were making love maybe once a week, often less, and over time, he developed major problems with PE, so that the whole experience was frustrating and unsatisfying for me, embarrassing for him. Definitely became something to avoid.

Is this the article?
How to Meet the need for SF #2

Have you read this thread? Sexual Fulfillment

Maybe something in there would help?

H used to engage in those activities but pretty infrequently. It was pretty easy for him to stop engaging in them at all. Unless he is totally pulling the wool over my eyes, always possible.

Yes, thank you. I was hoping you would link that for me BH

You're welcome.

Do you have spyware installed to verify?

I read halfway through that one day, then jumped to the end and saw there was some kind of ongoing A in that sitch and decided the rest did not relate to me.

It started with advice to put SF to the side and focus on meeting the spouses needs first, which I feel like I did this summer. I focused on meeting H's #1 EN of DS but then when I referenced hoping to get my need for SF met by meeting his DS need Indie jumped all over me for this kind of thinking, as part of the sacrificing convo. I have attempted to meet his PA need more, to no avail. I have def become more admiring and affectionate, we have much more UA along with the other 3 intimate needs. So I kindof have followed this protocol. Just very frustrated it has not paid out. In fact, less than when I was just using LB's to get my way.

No. How would I verify whether he masturbates, other than putting secret cameras in the shower, which sounds rather illegal and even if not rather unethical. Plus, if life comes to spy cameras in the shower, I'm out.

As far as porn, H uses work devices that I cannot have spyware on, however if at any time I wish to browse through anything (and sometimes do) he willingly logs in and show me anything I want to see. I regularly browse through his phone, have never found history deleted or anything like that.

H never was a big porn user, to my knowledge anyway. Half the infrequent times he did watch porn it was with me.

As with anything else though, H is highly intellegent, has a double major from a prestigious school and one of those majors is IT. I have a hard time turning the tv on. Hiding something from me would be very, very easy for him.

Ah, Ok. I haven't read through the whole thing myself. But I did see ideas being thrown out there that you might not have gotten before. I don't know, girl. You have followed all of the MB advice thrown at you. Any further advice I would give you wouldn't be MB

First, let me say how unprofessional that doctor is to make such a statement about wives and their attractiveness!

Second, I don't want to go off on a tangent, but I spent 3 hours yesterday at my new "wellness doctor" as well as 2 hours last Friday. I've learned a lot in a short time about hormones, nutrition, and how it all affects the body and brain. This doctor is one who left traditional medicine because she was tired of prescribing drugs to people to cure symptoms and not get a person well - to the point that one's own body is working as the well oiled machine it was intended to be.

In talking to her about my issue, she explained to me that your body can test normally (on blood tests) for something, but that doesn't mean it is being utilized in the body properly. A lot of us suffer from adrenal fatigue and don't even know it. We go to our doctors saying "something's not right" but tests come out ok. So, the doc says, "eat better; exercise; get sleep." Do we follow that advice? no - not usually. lol.

This doctor does a full work up (blood tests, EKG, etc...) but also spends 3 HOURS with you discussing all your symptoms. Then, she prescribes vitamins and supplements as well as a diet plan to get your body cleansed of junk and to help kick it into gear. Sometimes she prescribes bio-identical hormones, if needed. The vitamins and minerals she prescribes are targeted towards your personal symptoms, not a one size fits all. It's a very holistic approach to good health.

It's worth noting that she and I did discuss other things that affect libido. You know, the emotional stuff as well as body image, stress, state of the marital union, underlying resentments (even subconsciously) etc...

Couples have come to this doctor for infertility - after everything else has not worked - and have successfully gotten pregnant.

Anyway, I just found it all very enlightening. I guess she's our area Dr. Oz. LOL

All that to say this: just because your H tested fine in T levels, his system could still be outta whack and affecting him negatively.

Ahhh...see...I should have read this before I responded to the first post of yours today. His health issues - for 5 years... It's time he addresses those, I would say!

As for the negativity, it is obviously a LB to you and is draining his account! People sometimes think they aren't guilty of a LB because they aren't complaining about YOU but about other things - but they are still sucking the life out of the home! I used to do this when I was depressed. I consciously had to put a stop to it and was the first thing I changed about myself in plan A. It is not wrong for you to ask him to change this. It's a habit that can be unlearned! It will not only make you happier but your kids as well!

How you talk to him about it is you explain how it makes you feel negatively towards him when he does this. Remember, MB101 is that you put your spouse's happiness first - and he needs to remember that.

This, of course, doesn't mean he doesn't get an outlet to share his frustrations or worries - he just needs to learn to do it differently. And those new ways - if done correctly - will fulfill him much better as a person than just bombing the house with his attitude. In the conversation you can tell him that when he does this correctly, you will be more than happy to listen and validate his feelings, etc... It's win win.