|
|
Joined: Oct 2010
Posts: 5,123 Likes: 1
Member
|
Member
Joined: Oct 2010
Posts: 5,123 Likes: 1 |
You know who people who have successful, life-long, romantic marriages prefer to spend ALL of their time with? You can PoJA right into the destruction of your marriage. We even had a poster here who thought a threesome with her husband and another man would be OK... because the did it under PoJA! Get a month or two of 20+ hours of UA time in (the vow "forsaking all others" refers just as much to friends as it does to prospects of infidelity) and then reevaluate how much value these escapes have.
"An expert is a person who has made all the mistakes that can be made in a very narrow field." - Niels Bohr
"Smart people believe weird things because they are skilled at defending beliefs they arrived at for non-smart reasons." - Michael Shermer
"Fair speech may hide a foul heart." - Samwise Gamgee LOTR
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Apr 2012
Posts: 3,197
Member
|
|
OP
Member
Joined: Apr 2012
Posts: 3,197 |
Thats ridiculous. You are saying to be married I cannot have any friends? FEMALE friends since I have already determined I would not keep MALE friends mind you. That all I can have in my life is my husband? And you are equating having friends and hobbies, as long as you can prioritize your marriage and relationship with your spouse, to having a threesome?
Sorry. You are not going to sell me on that point.
Frankly, if the cost of a good marriage is to give up EVERYTHING else in my life, it costs too much.
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Apr 2011
Posts: 3,786
Member
|
|
Member
Joined: Apr 2011
Posts: 3,786 |
Friends of the same sex can come after UA time. I believe the issue has to be POJA'd with your spouse.
If you want to do something with your girlfriends after you UA time has be successfully utilized, then POJA it with your husband.
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Apr 2011
Posts: 3,786
Member
|
|
Member
Joined: Apr 2011
Posts: 3,786 |
Reading your thread ... You have infidelity and children, so your time will be limited currently outside of your marriage.
With infidelity ... you will need at least 15+ UA hours, it is highly encouraged to go to 20-25 for the first couple of years.
With children Dr. Harley suggests 15+ hours of family time also ...
With the rebuilding of your marriage and your family that means you need up to 35 hours/week with your husband and children.
I am not sure if Dr. Harley suggests your 15 hours of family time can include other families... you may want to email Dr. Harley and ask him this question.
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Oct 2010
Posts: 5,123 Likes: 1
Member
|
|
Member
Joined: Oct 2010
Posts: 5,123 Likes: 1 |
Thats ridiculous. You are saying to be married I cannot have any friends? FEMALE friends since I have already determined I would not keep MALE friends mind you. That all I can have in my life is my husband? Let's start simply, right here: One of the most controversial positions I take regarding marriage is that a husband and wife should be together for their favorite recreational activities. Whatever it is they enjoy doing the most, they either do with each other, or they don't do it at all.
Some feel that I am out to destroy marriage with that suggestion, not save it. After all, how can a husband and wife survive each other in life unless they are able to get away once in a while to have some fun.
"You are meddling, Dr. Harley! I need something to look forward to, and _______ is absolutely essential to my survival," is the response I often hear from spouses when first introduced to the idea. "There are some things a man and woman simply cannot enjoy together, and yet are essential to their happiness."
But my advice is not based on ivory tower speculation. It's based on years of observation. Couples who spend their most enjoyable time together tend to have great marriages, and those who do not, tend to divorce. Furthermore, I have witnessed hundreds of couples who have given up activities that only one enjoyed for activities that they both enjoyed. None went crazy, and almost all of them were very happy that they made the change.
My goal is saving marriages, and I achieve that goal by helping a husband and wife fall in love with each other. They fall in love by being with each other when they are the happiest (depositing love units), and avoiding unpleasant experiences (withdrawing love units) when they are together. Since the purpose of recreational activities is to create enjoyment, it makes sense for a husband and wife to spend their recreational time together. It's one of the easiest ways to deposit love units. And you are equating having friends and hobbies, as long as you can prioritize your marriage and relationship with your spouse, to having a threesome? Hey, fantastic use of a worst-case scenario to red herring the conversation! You should be proud! Now, get over it. The point is; you can absolutely PoJA the destruction of your marriage, as you seem to be content to do at this time. Sorry. You are not going to sell me on that point.
Frankly, if the cost of a good marriage is to give up EVERYTHING else in my life, it costs too much. Does it? Does it REALLY? You see, what I see reading your posts, and your responses to others posting isn't "the devil or resentment." I see the devil of; selfishness self-entitlement the state of marital withdrawal In short, you ma'am, are a drama queen. Yet, just fixing that third "devil" can actually do a lot toward erasing the other two. You, ma'am, use "resentment" as a tool for secondary gain against your husband. Yet another reason you are in a wreck of a marriage. And, your wrecked marriage - your state of marital withdrawal - is why you can't fathom changing your life for a good marriage. So... you claim I can't "sell" you on one of the most basic marriage builders principles? Ok. How about this; Calculate the cost of divorce. Calculate the cost to your children emotionally and mentally... as well as financially over their own lifetimes based on the model of marriage YOU will present. How does that weigh versus these "precious" activities and friendships of yours? Over your lifetime. Over the lifetime of your children? I don't have to "sell" anything. You have a choice to make. As it turns out, falling in and out of love is not as much of a mystery as some literature and music make it out to be. Love is simply an emotional reaction that is triggered by repeated associations of very good feelings with a person of the opposite sex. Technically, we can fall in love with anyone of the opposite sex if we feel particularly good whenever we are with that person.
Courtship usually follows a plan that is intended to create the feeling of love. Each person makes an effort to make the other one happy, and if they are both successful, they deposit enough love units in each other's Love Banks to trigger love for each other. And the recreational activities that they enjoy together are usually an essential part of the plan because it's one of the easiest ways to create happiness.
Sadly, once a couple marry, they usually think that their love for each other will never leave them. They do not understand that unless they continue to associate each other with their best feelings (deposit love units), they will lose that feeling of love that motivated them to marry in the first place. So after marriage, and especially after children arrive, they do not make a special effort to spend their favorite recreational time with each other. Mind you, they usually don't put an end to recreational activities; they simply stop doing them with each other. They squander their opportunity to deposit love units into each other's love banks.
There are some couples, Charlene, like you and your husband, who try to compromise regarding recreational activities. They spend some of their recreational time with each other. But they spend their very favorite recreational time apart. Your husband's participation in fantasy baseball draft is a good example.
My problem with his plan is that it not only squanders the opportunity to deposit the most love units in the shortest amount of time, but it also tends to make the time he does have with you much less enjoyable than it would have been. Starting to make sense? Sound familiar? Marriage, and raising children, can force a husband and wife to be together when they are unhappy, because they become partners in situations that are stressful. So after having children, it's even more important for them to spend their most enjoyable time with each other, than it was when they were dating. They need to compensate for the stressful time they spend with each other raising their children by taking time to escape together.
Sadly, most people do not understand this important principle until it's too late. When you lose your love for each other, then you don't want to be with each other at all. Things go from bad to worse in a deteriorating marriage, because the solution to the problem, having your most enjoyable time with each other, is intentionally avoided. When you are out of love, you would rather be with anyone than with each other.
Right now, you want to spend your leisure time with your husband, but if he continues to exclude you from his favorite recreational activities, you will eventually exclude him from yours. Sooner or later, you won't want to be with him because you will have much more fun without him. Making sense yet? You see... you have been going about Marriage Builders BACKWARDS. PoJA is important, but it is LESS important than the very base of this program; UA time. Why? Because PoJA is a GREAT way to for a spouse in withdrawal to justify marriage-wrecking activities. After all, you have "enthusiastic agreement" to do it, right? Your focus should NOT be on PoJA, it should primarily be on 20+ hours each week meeting each others 4 intimate emotional needs; Affection, Intimate Conversation, Sexual Fulfillment, and RECREATIONAL ACTIVITY. Once you and your husband are actually IN LOVE with each other, then you can look at these issues again. 2-3 months of solid 20+ hours a week should get you there. So, which is it; drama queen, or marriage builder?
Last edited by HoldHerHand; 05/19/12 07:31 PM.
"An expert is a person who has made all the mistakes that can be made in a very narrow field." - Niels Bohr
"Smart people believe weird things because they are skilled at defending beliefs they arrived at for non-smart reasons." - Michael Shermer
"Fair speech may hide a foul heart." - Samwise Gamgee LOTR
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Oct 2010
Posts: 5,123 Likes: 1
Member
|
|
Member
Joined: Oct 2010
Posts: 5,123 Likes: 1 |
To drive the point home; Dr. Harley has stated he WILL NOT accept anybody for coaching who refuses to meet the UA requirements, because all else in the program DOES NOT WORK WITHOUT IT.
"An expert is a person who has made all the mistakes that can be made in a very narrow field." - Niels Bohr
"Smart people believe weird things because they are skilled at defending beliefs they arrived at for non-smart reasons." - Michael Shermer
"Fair speech may hide a foul heart." - Samwise Gamgee LOTR
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Apr 2012
Posts: 3,197
Member
|
|
OP
Member
Joined: Apr 2012
Posts: 3,197 |
HHH,
Thank you for the time you have taken to respond to my thread and gather support from Dr Harley for your argument. I have weighed and considered it.
I respectfully disagree. Not with 15-20 hrs of UA time, but with having individual activities when that time is fulfilled.
I also disagree with the fact that I am a selfish drama queen. But you have a right to your own impression of me.
UW
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: May 2011
Posts: 361
Member
|
|
Member
Joined: May 2011
Posts: 361 |
UW: Then prove US all wrong!  I am sincerely challenging you, sister, to post here EVERY DAY how you get 15-20 hours of UA time in (no kids, no TV). That's 2-3 hours ... per day! If "friends" are more important/enjoyable than your H ... or I would venture to say if they are as equal to you as your H, that's a mind-set that will erode the strength of your H. You are not being sentenced to prison. It's a lifelong vacation with the most important person in your life. (FYI: I'm totally sympathetic to you wanting to hang onto your independence. Got it. But MB isn't about independence; it's about strong, healthy and HAPPY marriages. And you both have proven over time that you simply can not handle outside friendships ... at least w/members of opposite sex.) SP P.S.: Nice work on date night and talking about H's needs. Think more on this: Guys are laser-focused on how to get what they want (flattery, presents, doing favors, etc.). Now you know what he finds attractive and the approach he likes. You go, girl! (In the most subtle of ways, as per his request, of course!)
Last edited by sweetpea2011; 05/21/12 08:44 AM.
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Oct 2010
Posts: 5,123 Likes: 1
Member
|
|
Member
Joined: Oct 2010
Posts: 5,123 Likes: 1 |
I respectfully disagree. Not with 15-20 hrs of UA time, but with having individual activities when that time is fulfilled. When putting your marriage after independent behavior creates a successful, romantic marriage and you are happy with your husband doing it this way, I encourage you to write Dr. Harley and let him know he's been going about this all wrong for well over 3 decades, and that he has been teaching thousands upon thousands of couples the wrong way, too. Heck, maybe I'd like to go back to playing WoW all the time! I also disagree with the fact that I am a selfish drama queen. But you have a right to your own impression of me.
UW I can only go off of your own words; that you would rather not have a marriage at all than to give up your independent behavior. Said with dramatic inflection.
"An expert is a person who has made all the mistakes that can be made in a very narrow field." - Niels Bohr
"Smart people believe weird things because they are skilled at defending beliefs they arrived at for non-smart reasons." - Michael Shermer
"Fair speech may hide a foul heart." - Samwise Gamgee LOTR
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Apr 2012
Posts: 3,197
Member
|
|
OP
Member
Joined: Apr 2012
Posts: 3,197 |
UW: Then prove US all wrong! I am sincerely challenging you, sister, to post here EVERY DAY how you get 15-20 hours of UA time in (no kids, no TV). That's 2-3 hours ... per day! If "friends" are more important/enjoyable than your H ... or I would venture to say if they are as equal to you as your H, that's a mind-set that will erode the strength of your H. You are not being sentenced to prison. It's a lifelong vacation with the most important person in your life. (FYI: I'm totally sympathetic to you wanting to hang onto your independence. Got it. But MB isn't about independence; it's about strong, healthy and HAPPY marriages. And you both have proven over time that you simply can not handle outside friendships ... at least w/members of opposite sex.) SP P.S.: Nice work on date night and talking about H's needs. Think more on this: Guys are laser-focused on how to get what they want (flattery, presents, doing favors, etc.). Now you know what he finds attractive and the approach he likes. You go, girl! (In the most subtle of ways, as per his request, of course!) Thanks SP. I am having a hard time understanding how there is such misinterpretation of what I've said. I have never said I prioritized friends over marriage. I haven't even seen my closest friend for 20 yrs in over a year, because of my attempts to try and focus on my marriage. I have repeatedly said that I prioritize my marriage. And that I agree with UA time. I am not challenging either of those issues and I'm not sure why its coming across that I am. I am simply stating that I disagree with the fact that, AFTER I meet UA time, AFTER I have prioritized my marriage, filled my H's needs (which I am working very diligently on despite my desire to sometimes withdraw), that I must give up all activities that do not 100% include my spouse and have no same sex relationships. I have read every kind word you and others have said, and every unkind word other posters have said, and Dr Harley's advice, and I do not agree with giving up all other activities and friends. For that, I am being called selfish and self entitled. Its discouraging. I'm on here trying to seek advice and support to work through the emotional rollercoaster, asking questions and taking advice and implementing much of what I have learned, which is a lot. Its discouraging to come on here and have a poster suggesting I am having some kind of affair, am being selfish and self serving and a drama queen. It makes me go from being excited to learn from my H about what his needs are and what I can do to invest, instead of withdraw, and it totally brings me down. I thank you again for being supportive in this process, it means a lot to me to balance the negative with help and support from people like you.
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Apr 2012
Posts: 3,197
Member
|
|
OP
Member
Joined: Apr 2012
Posts: 3,197 |
When putting your marriage after independent behavior creates a successful, romantic marriage and you are happy with your husband doing it this way, I encourage you to write Dr. Harley and let him know he's been going about this all wrong for well over 3 decades, and that he has been teaching thousands upon thousands of couples the wrong way, too.
Heck, maybe I'd like to go back to playing WoW all the time! HHH, I am not sure why you keep coming at me here. You have suggested I am having an affair. You have suggested I am self serving and a drama queen. I am posting about my emotional rollercoaster, and trying to seek advice, weighing what everyone says, and implementing much of it. I have never, not once, said that my independent activity (and I have thought long and hard about this, there is only ONE that I do independently that H is not really interested in, everything else we do as a family or as a couple) would come BEFORE my marriage or my husband. I have only said that I do not feel, if I am meeting my H's needs and UA time, that I should have to give it up. I have been in my own 'profession' for over 20 years. That does mean all people regarding this profession must take my word as the bible, agree with 100% of what I say, and implement exactly as I say it. I feel like you are trying to manipulate me into agreeing to something that I don't agree with. I can only go off of your own words; that you would rather not have a marriage at all than to give up your independent behavior. Said with dramatic inflection. So a 'dramatic inflection' is what caused you to call me a drama queen? I would assume you are here to help, because I don't know why you would be here writing on my thread if you weren't. Your approach to this is only discouraging me and making me defensive, it is not educating me, helping me with my questions regarding my state of withdrawal or polygraphs or any of those things. It is just being accusatory and what I consider to be negative and incredibly condescending.
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Apr 2012
Posts: 3,197
Member
|
|
OP
Member
Joined: Apr 2012
Posts: 3,197 |
OK Sweet Pea we sat down last night and we made a UA schedule together for the week. First time we have done that.
We only have 12 hours on it though since we are going away for the holiday weekend. We will be with my inlaws over the weekend though so vowed to up that time by asking them to watch kids while we go do RC time together, should get at least a couple more hours in there. And that also didn't include 'unplanned' things like SF (we don't really plan this...).
We agreed to consistently commit to 2 hours every Monday night to discuss our home program materials, review our previous weeks UA time, where our gaps were and what we needed to change for the better, and also plan for the following week.
Tonight, 1.5 hrs of workout time, then we usually sit down to rest and have some recovery drinks and talk for about a half hour afterwards. That is our schedule for the rest of the week, and a lunch date and dinner date, and scheduled 3 hours of RC time fishing this weekend:)
OK have to go short shopping. I. highly dislike. shopping. Wish me luck, hopefully I will only have to go to one store.
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Oct 2010
Posts: 5,123 Likes: 1
Member
|
|
Member
Joined: Oct 2010
Posts: 5,123 Likes: 1 |
HHH,
I am not sure why you keep coming at me here. I believe you are intelligent and determined enough to have a fantastic marriage once you create the attitude and habits to build it. I can either; a) back pat you and tell you how great you are doing, or b) help you plug the holes. And, honestly, back patting is more condescending. You are a grown woman and don't need a "There, there... you just don't know better" approach. You aren't a child. That is how you talk to children. As for the rest of your response here; Dr. Harley has stated that this program is a "narrow path." And that does mean you implement it exactly as he says to. You want help with withdrawal? Then quit doing a one-cheek job for six months. Go all out, and work the program without all the excuses not to, without the "I know better than the experts" attitude. 15 hours a week is the BARE-MINIMUM, ma'am. If you want out of withdrawal, you will be prioritizing 20+ hours EACH WEEK. Your "adult contact" time will be spent WITH YOUR HUSBAND. Your recreational time will be spent WITH YOUR HUSBAND. Your non-profit work will be done WITH YOUR HUSBAND. Do you want to fall back in love with your husband, or continue to make excuses not to?
"An expert is a person who has made all the mistakes that can be made in a very narrow field." - Niels Bohr
"Smart people believe weird things because they are skilled at defending beliefs they arrived at for non-smart reasons." - Michael Shermer
"Fair speech may hide a foul heart." - Samwise Gamgee LOTR
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Apr 2012
Posts: 3,197
Member
|
|
OP
Member
Joined: Apr 2012
Posts: 3,197 |
HHH,
Thank you for toning it down, I really appreciate it:)
I am not a little girl but a pat on the back once in awhile is still encouraging. I think support and encouragement during a difficult time is welcome at any age. Surely I am doing some things right that deserve encouragement, but perhaps in your opinion not.
I don't know better than the experts. But I didn't go to the seminary and still don't agree with everything every preacher on the planet who did tells me to, I still weigh all opinions and make my own judgement call at the end.
Anyway, no use beating a dead horse on this topic. Appreciate all the time you have invested in me.
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: May 2011
Posts: 361
Member
|
|
Member
Joined: May 2011
Posts: 361 |
UW:
Great work on scheduling UA time. See how HARD it is to find? And maybe you'll get some bonus UA time in that isn't scheduled. That's always great, too.
When you sit down and really make time for each other -- in order to make MB work -- there is very little time for other things, especially if you have kids, too.
It's a way of FORCING you two to bond, deeply, strongly and richly so that A) you repair your marriage and B) you make it impenitrable to affairs.
I love being in a happy, healthy MB-strengthened marriage. My "old" marriage -- in which my H screwed a POSOW -- that was not a good one.
And I love my friends. Love my hobbies. They just do not compare to my love for my H and our life together. I don't want anything to ever threatn that again.
Make sense?
OK, lastly: You've said you have planned out UA time next week. I'd love a daily report on whether your plans actually came true, or if you ended up cutting corners. Or, if you managed to find more UA time. Daily! You can do it!
Cheers,
SP
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: May 2011
Posts: 361
Member
|
|
Member
Joined: May 2011
Posts: 361 |
UW:
How's the UA time going? Are you meeting your goals? Let us know. We're rooting for you!
Cheers,
SP
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Apr 2012
Posts: 3,197
Member
|
|
OP
Member
Joined: Apr 2012
Posts: 3,197 |
Thank you SP!
UA time last week was kinda iffy. Not proud to report that we probably only got about 10 hrs in. Both were sick different days last week, then the weekend it was rainy and we didn't get out as much as we wanted. We did do our usual lunch date, dinner date, and a couple hours of fishing together each day over the long weekend. Not enough though.
Tonight we are supposed to review last weeks UA time, where the failures happened, what we can improve on this week to get more hours, etc. Main failure is working out. We are supposed to work out together every night but I just don't feel like H is committed to it (or the UA time in general frankly). How do I get his commitment on this?
Last week he read my thread and came back all gung ho about scheduling our UA time, etc. But then that zest fell through the cracks a little. Scheduling it is one thing but following through is another and he just isn't all that dedicated to following through. I would be but I just don't want to feel like I am twisting his arm to recover this, I know I have a hangup about that.
Also, he was supposed to have taken a poly by our next MC session which is supposed to be this week. He hasn't even scheduled one. What do I make of that. This darn poly thing is just a monkey on my back.
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: May 2011
Posts: 361
Member
|
|
Member
Joined: May 2011
Posts: 361 |
Well, UA time is non-negotiable. If H doesn't do it, then you are likely headed for divorce. Does he not understand this? You have strayed; he has strayed. The only way to really fix your marriage is to commit fully to each other and meet each others needs during UA time.
I guess I would ask him why he isn't committed to UA time, because it's a HUGE red flag into the recovery of your marriage.
Poly? Why is he scheduling the poly. I would NEVER trust a former wayward to schedule his own poly. You are the one that needs answers, not him. So, schedule it. Make him do it. Ask the questions you want answered, and then move on.
(Not very knowledgeable about polys because my WH didn't require one.) Perhaps others will pipe in and assist on this topic, and on the UA issue altogether.
Cheers,
SP
Question: How much time did you and H give to other people last week? Meaning, if you only got 10 hours in, did either of u sacrifice precious time to others?
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Mar 2010
Posts: 6,352
Member
|
|
Member
Joined: Mar 2010
Posts: 6,352 |
UW, you haven't progressed very much since you began this thread. Do you recall the angst about the wedding bands? To review:
I did not feel that we should honor our former rings, because of the dishonor FWH brought to them, so I insisted we get new ones. Now I resent the fact that we had to spend the money to do what I insisted upon.
So now we're presented with:
I haven't driven us to fulfill our UA requirements because I don't feel his heart is in it.
HE'S NOT HERE - YOU ARE!
We cannot energize him to understand, internalize, and fully accept the MB practices because we're not talking to him.
We cannot energize you to understand, internalize, and fully accept the MB practices because....(Fill in the blank, UW, because if I do, you're not very likely to enjoy reading it.)
And please don't waste the electrons explaining how you do "understand, internalize, and fully accept the MB practices" but just don't accomplish them, okay? This is an action-based program. Sterile "knowledge" and "comprehension" prep the participant for the necessary "application", which is where the progress takes place.
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Apr 2012
Posts: 151
Member
|
|
Member
Joined: Apr 2012
Posts: 151 |
UW, you haven't progressed very much since you began this thread. Do you recall the angst about the wedding bands? To review:
I did not feel that we should honor our former rings, because of the dishonor FWH brought to them, so I insisted we get new ones. Now I resent the fact that we had to spend the money to do what I insisted upon.
So now we're presented with:
I haven't driven us to fulfill our UA requirements because I don't feel his heart is in it.
HE'S NOT HERE - YOU ARE!
We cannot energize him to understand, internalize, and fully accept the MB practices because we're not talking to him.
We cannot energize you to understand, internalize, and fully accept the MB practices because....(Fill in the blank, UW, because if I do, you're not very likely to enjoy reading it.)
And please don't waste the electrons explaining how you do "understand, internalize, and fully accept the MB practices" but just don't accomplish them, okay? This is an action-based program. Sterile "knowledge" and "comprehension" prep the participant for the necessary "application", which is where the progress takes place. My question to you is how do you get a WW spouse 'on-board' with you in accomplishing this plan. That's been my difficulty and it's allowing me to wallow in resentment like UW.
|
|
|
Moderated by Ariel, BerlinMB, Denali, Fordude, IrishGreen, MBeliever, MBsurvivor, MBSync, McLovin, Mizar, PhoenixMB, Toujours
|
0 members (),
483
guests, and
91
robots. |
|
Key:
Admin,
Global Mod,
Mod
|
|
|
|
