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I am trying to plan against her possible reactions:
1. She rants, bragains, then she goes into waiting mode thinking. In this case I would continue with my 180s: be best father and husband I can be, 'as if' attitude. I don't think the 180 will help you one bit. I have never seen it work because it conveys complacence, which will not help you. 2. She grabs kids and runs for another city. No support from me. My assumption is this would be temporary as how can she support herself medium term beyond a month or so? But I am doubtful she would do this, as she did not do it when this OM was in the hospital. Her mom will help against this also. I would not let her take your kids out of the home without a court order. I really start to think, hopefully not too optimistically, that we are in a holding pattern with the OM's death on 30 Sept and if I push a bit her fantasy house of cards may collapse. Anyway, this is what I am hoping for. I cannot discount the possibility of some drama though, because she is so emotional right now, in the affair fog still, and has reacted with drama in the past at me. Yes, there will be drama. It has worked for her in the past so she will play the drama card here too. Another question: when I present what I want, should I try something like give it 12 months as a bargaining chip to get her to committ, or for her to at least feel comfortable committing? For example, "let's committ to making the marriage work and going through counseling 12 months, and if no success, then I will be more amicable"? Or would this be counter-productive? I am just thinking that if we get into counseling and work on this and 12 month that it will work regardless and 12 months is way in the future. Of course not. That is a sure fire way to ruin all your efforts. It is all or nothing. There will be no success if she doesn't try, but there will be success if she does. It won't work, though, with your approach of "lets see if this works" because that approach is contingent upon some magic happening to your marriage. IT won't get fixed with magic. And if she doesn't commit to the marriage and get this fixed, YOU SHOULD NOT BE AMICABLE. Giving her this timeline will only give her a one year reprieve to hook up with a new guy. [which I suspect she is already working on] I want to make a compelling vision for her so she will make the rational choice and committ to working it out and going through the effort/pain. And here you are trying to reason with a falling down drunk. It doesn't work. What you have to do is compel her to commit to the ACTIONS. Once she does that, her feelings will follow. The thing to avoid, BH, is to give the appearance that these conditions are negotiable. They are not. You don't negotiate with a terrorist. Your wife is in the fog, so that is not someone to whom you afford any decision making powers over your marriage. Remember, your goal is to lead your marriage and your family out of the fire. You do that by taking the wheel from the drunk driver. You don't SHARE the wheel with the drunk, you take it away.
"It is not the critic who counts; not the man who points out how the strong man stumbles, or where the doer of deeds could have done them better. The credit belongs to the man who is actually in the arena.." Theodore Roosevelt Exposure 101
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My wife has always had an interest in understanding religion and her sprituality. Is she familiar with the Bible? Bible Verses Against Adultery (Exodus 20:14) 14 �You shall not commit adultery. (Matthew 5:27-28) 27 �You have heard that it was said, �You shall not commit adultery;� 28 but I tell you that everyone who gazes at a woman to lust after her has committed adultery with her already in his heart. (Matthew 5:32) 32 but I tell you that whoever puts away his wife, except for the cause of sexual immorality, makes her an adulteress; and whoever marries her when she is put away commits adultery. (Matthew 19:9) 9 I tell you that whoever divorces his wife, except for sexual immorality, and marries another, commits adultery; and he who marries her when she is divorced commits adultery.�" (Matthew 19:18) 18 He said to him, �Which ones?� Jesus said, "��You shall not murder.� �You shall not commit adultery.� �You shall not steal.� �You shall not offer false testimony.� (Mark 10:11-12) 11 He said to them, "�Whoever divorces his wife, and marries another, commits adultery against her. 12 If a woman herself divorces her husband, and marries another, she commits adultery.�" (Luke 16:18) 18 Everyone who divorces his wife, and marries another, commits adultery. He who marries one who is divorced from a husband commits adultery. (1 Corinthians 6:9) 9 Or don�t you know that the unrighteous will not inherit the Kingdom of God? Don�t be deceived. Neither the sexually immoral, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor male prostitutes, nor homosexuals, (1 Corinthians 6:13) 13 �Foods for the belly, and the belly for foods,� but God will bring to nothing both it and them. But the body is not for sexual immorality, but for the Lord; and the Lord for the body. (1 Corinthians 6:15) 15 Don�t you know that your bodies are members of Christ? Shall I then take the members of Christ, and make them members of a prostitute? May it never be! (1 Corinthians 6:18-20) 18 Flee sexual immorality! �Every sin that a man does is outside the body,� but he who commits sexual immorality sins against his own body. 19 Or don�t you know that your body is a temple of the Holy Spirit which is in you, which you have from God? You are not your own, 20 for you were bought with a price. Therefore glorify God in your body and in your spirit, which are God�s. (Galatians 5:21) 21 envyings, murders, drunkenness, orgies, and things like these; of which I forewarn you, even as I also forewarned you, that those who practice such things will not inherit the Kingdom of God. (Ephesians 5:3-5) 3 But sexual immorality, and all uncleanness, or covetousness, let it not even be mentioned among you, as becomes saints; 4 nor filthiness, nor foolish talking, nor jesting, which are not appropriate; but rather giving of thanks. 5 Know this for sure, that no sexually immoral person, nor unclean person, nor covetous man, who is an idolater, has any inheritance in the Kingdom of Christ and God. (Hebrews 13:4) 4 Let marriage be held in honor among all, and let the bed be undefiled: but God will judge the sexually immoral and adulterers.
"It is not the critic who counts; not the man who points out how the strong man stumbles, or where the doer of deeds could have done them better. The credit belongs to the man who is actually in the arena.." Theodore Roosevelt Exposure 101
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As before, MelodyLane I want to thank you for your sound advice. I think the 180 here is me becoming a firm rock after the last month of complacent behavior, playing hardball and not enabling her any longer with this nonsense!
I almost wonder if beneath the fog this is what she is waiting for me to do, to show her I will fight for her and stand up.
And I know the MIL call will blow her down. She is not expecting this at all.
So what should I expect after she calms down, assuming she does not run? A cold war at home?
Me: BH
Marriage: 22 years
2 kids
D-Day 5 Sept 2011
EA w OM started Fall 2010, PA w OM Spring 2011, OM died end Sept 2011
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As before, MelodyLane I want to thank you for your sound advice. I think the 180 here is me becoming a firm rock after the last month of complacent behavior, playing hardball and not enabling her any longer with this nonsense!
I almost wonder if beneath the fog this is what she is waiting for me to do, to show her I will fight for her and stand up. I can't tell you how many WW's have said later that they appreciated their husbands standing up and fighting for their marriage. This is why it is such a huge mistake to be complacent. Complacence reflects a lack of caring. And I know the MIL call will blow her down. She is not expecting this at all. Are there other family members or friends you can call on to help? The more people who know, the more support for your marriage. And hopefully your MIL will call her up. If she won't then you must tell your wife later that day that you have informed others. Anyone who is fairly close to your family should know what is going on. And when you talk to them, ask for their help. Ask them to call her up and use their influence to persuade her to drop her destructive plans. So what should I expect after she calms down, assuming she does not run? A cold war at home? She will try giving you the cold shoulder to try and get you to back down from your position. You have to stand pat and don't back down. If you back down or apologize or appease, she will know she is still in control. It is very, very important that you stay firm and don't go wobbly. You must show her that you are in control now.
"It is not the critic who counts; not the man who points out how the strong man stumbles, or where the doer of deeds could have done them better. The credit belongs to the man who is actually in the arena.." Theodore Roosevelt Exposure 101
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So what should I expect after she calms down, assuming she does not run? A cold war at home? I seriously doubt she will run. She might leave for a few hours in the hopes you will call and beg and plead and cry. But she will back down when you don't call her. And don't you dare call her if she does that!!
"It is not the critic who counts; not the man who points out how the strong man stumbles, or where the doer of deeds could have done them better. The credit belongs to the man who is actually in the arena.." Theodore Roosevelt Exposure 101
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One reason to, as ML encourages, expand your exposure zone is often you only get one real good shot at exposure. You'll have one shot to respond to her anger with a "oops...my bad, I didn't think you'd mind everyone knowing, I'm just fighting for you and my family the best way I know how. Settle down...I won't do it anymore (because you won't have to...you've done it all already).
Another benefit of more broad exposure is that often, the waywards anger after exposure is both punishment and manipulation. They want to convince/manipulate you to STOP exposing their disgusting embarrassing behavior and figure if they get angry enough it won't be worth FURTHER exposure. Well...if you've already exposed to just about everyone...what good does an attempt to manipulate you do????
In the end, a truly repentant former wayward will understand and APPRECIATE all that you did to save her and the family. It may suck having everyone know but she'll come to understand that that was HER fault and a result/consequences of HER actions. You had no other choice and with the secret out...she'll gain accountability partners in real life and in prayer.
Mr. W
FBH(me)-51 FWW-49 (MrsWondering)
DD19 DS 22 Dday-2005-Recovered
"agree to disagree" = Used when one wants to reject the objective reality of the situation and hopefully replace it with their own.
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Thought I'd add another post that you may have read before (it's from the Notable Thread - For Newly Betrayed Husbands by Longhorn). This one is by the infamous Mortarman. I've never met the man but he is now one of the good friends my wife and I have made herein. After 5 years or so of fighting for his family and surviving not one but two separate divorce cases (in which he won more than 50% temporary custody both times)...his fww finally woke up and repented for good. He hasn't been around here much since. Anyway, it's a great newbie post, especially for military men, that I pulled out for the old Infidelity - General Questions Board. This post was directed to a BH named Good Father, who like Mortarman, was also military, hence the military angle. I'm guessing "blackhawk" signifies you are military or of a military mindset so figured you may like it: [color:"blue"]MORTARMAN - SPRING, 2006
Okay, you have begun the good fight. The folks here are some of the best on this blog to helping guide you. And they have laid it out pretty good. With that in mind, I must first of all center you. And here is my overall advice:
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#1...YOU are the leader of your family. Not your wife, nor your in-laws, nor Steve Harley, nor us. You, sir, must make the decisions here. You are fighting this fight. You are the man in command, on the ground. We are all just support. So, you have to take all advice here and look at it, and then look at the situation in front of you to make the decision based on what you see. Understand? As a military guy, the generals in the rear can make all the plans they want...and they usually are dead on. But it is the leader on the ground that has to decide when and where it all happens, based on the conditions in front of him. Do your own METT-T analysis (if you are Army, then you know what I am talking about). For thsoe that aren't Army, METT-T stands for: Mission, Enemy, Troops, Terrain and Time. In all of this, you can use that to figure out what is going on.
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What is your mission? Well, the overall one is to serve your God. But then comes the mission of saving your family. Below that, will come the missions of Plan A and Plan B. And so on.
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The enemy. Right now, your wife is as much an enemy to your family as the OM is. Treat her as such. Trust nothing she says, and only half of what you see. As others have postulated, she has been taken over by aliens. That is NOT your wife you are dealing with. It is a WW...a very coniving, deceitful and hideous creature. Your wife is buried somewhere inside of there. As you go thru this, you will learn the actions that defeat the enemy. Many of those actions are counter-intuitive to what you would normally be thinking is the right thing to do.
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Troops. These are the forces that you have at your disposal. Starting with us here. We are your S-2 (Intelligence). We know the lay of the land. We know all about the enemy and what their tactics and COAs (courses of action) are. The enemy hardly ever changes tactics. Another one of your troops is your daughter. While you arent going to "use" her in this battle, it was Steve Harley that told me that my kids were the best asset I had in this war. This is the biggest reason why you MUST seek custody (as well as you dont want aliens raising your daughter). Other troops are Steve Harley (the EXPERT!), your pastor, close friends and relatives, a PI, etc. All of the assets at your disposal.
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Terrain. Okay, in the military, it would be what is the land mass in front of me. In this case, it is the "lay of the land." Understanding all of the variables. Where does OM work? What things does your wife value (such as is she a part of a church group...and would be devasted if they found out she was sleeping around)? Figure out where the high ground is. Understand what direction fo attack she will most likely try. And so on.
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Time. You, at times, will feel rushed. By yourself, by your wife...even by us! Please don't be. As you go thru this, you will slowly begin to understand the power you have. Remember, YOU decide when and where a battle will happen...not your wife. If she wants a discussion (read: argument) and you aren't prepared for it, then bow out. You don't owe a WW ANYTHING!! They deserve NOTHING! Also, please go in this website and learn how long these things take. This stuff will take a lot longer than you think.
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Okay, we got thru that.
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Now, please understand that timing is critical here. You cant talk about Plan B until you have accomplished Plan A. Many even here will want to rush into Plan B. Slow down. Learn what the plans are all about (go to Dazed's thread to see the discussion on this).
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You sir need to get your plan in something like OPORD (operations order) format. Get it written down (NOT where your wife can find it!!). Read it daily to understand your mission and your goals.
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Also, you MUST document EVERYTHING. Begin journaling everyday. Write down everything! it is admissable in court AND it will also help you remain sane as you go thru this. I say that because sometimes, you will think you havent made any progress. But, going back and reading will help you see the steps you have made.
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Legal representation is vital! You dont have a womb, so you are at a deficit to start. Mrs. Wondering gave you a great link to an e-book that is great for gaining custody (I got custody!). Read it. Tell your lawyer that you want custody and want to protect the family assets. But also important is that you tell your attorney that you are attempting to save your marriage...NOT divorce. he may try to talk you into things...dont let him. You write the check...he works for YOU!!
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Another thing is that you are going to have to get smart. becoem an expert on affairs, marriage, love, etc. Read, read, read!!! By the time this is over, you will be like Dazed...a subject matter expert in all of this. You cant fight the enemy if you are ignorant of this stuff. Time to get smart.
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I will stop now and await your answer to the questions at the beginning of my post before going further. I find it a lot easier to get military men to get onboard MB quickly, because of our training. We want a plan...and MB gives us that plan. Steve Harley is the EXPERT in coming up with the plan. Your OPORD will come from him.
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Just like we Americans didnt choose to be attacked on 9/11...you didnt choose this attack on your marriage. But you have been attacked, nonetheless! There are two people counting on you to stand up and fight (yes...your wife is one of them!!). You have a duty and responsibility here. No matter how bad it hurts, no matter how hard it becomes...surrender is not an option.
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As the motto for my former battalion says..."Ever Forward."
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In His arms.
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--------------------
BS (me) (42)
WW (35)
Married April 1993...
3 kids (13, 11, 8)
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The Roles of Husbands and Wives
[/color]
FBH(me)-51 FWW-49 (MrsWondering)
DD19 DS 22 Dday-2005-Recovered
"agree to disagree" = Used when one wants to reject the objective reality of the situation and hopefully replace it with their own.
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"Old soul" = pickled
NC Letter is a No Contact letter sent to the OM, written by the WW and mailed by you, except now the OM was obliging enough to ensure that you didn't need to do this.
A smooth sea never made a skilled mariner.
~ English proverb Neak's Story
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Thank again to all for the pasts posts. I have been silent on my business trip and then have been home dealing with my situation for the last week. MrWondering, I liked the Mortarman post, and found also very useful your "Do's & Don'ts of Plan A & B" post in the notable post section. For an update, here is where we stand: I got back, implemented, and she agreed the next day to try joint counseling for some period of time so we can "say we tried everything." She also agreed to speak with my counselor seperately. She did tell me she was surprised I have fought all of this, and she expected me to accept her leaving with the kids and to even be ok about it! She says she still feels hopeless we can recreate love in our relationship becaus eit has been broken so long. We did speak each of us to my counselor seperately last week and after her call she said she is willing to give it until the end of the year to see if "something moves within her." I have a call tomorrow with my counselor to discuss her call and next steps. I realize until the end of the year is unrealistic because it will take longer than that. Also, we need to start taking concrete steps. I will discuss with my counselor tomorrow to get a concrete plan.
Any thoughts or suggestions from others at this juncture? I feel I have won 2 small battles: she agreed to try joint counseling (and speak to my pro-marriage counselor), she agreed to give it until the end of the year. We both agreed we do not want the old relationship again, and a new one is possible.
Minus: she still believes she wants a seperation and does not agree with everything my counselor said, does not believe we can fall in love again. She continues to be negative about the marriage and blames me for everything.
Me: BH
Marriage: 22 years
2 kids
D-Day 5 Sept 2011
EA w OM started Fall 2010, PA w OM Spring 2011, OM died end Sept 2011
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This morning was a bad one. She has the time of the month and told me yesterday "Don't listen to me right now, I don't feel well" after saying "why do keep torturing each other, let's seperate." It was interesting she said that, because I already do not believe alot of her toxic comments and ignore them.
This morning she got angry because I left underwear on our 3 year old over night, I let it go, then she got angry at the 3 year old, then said "when I was at my Mom's in summer (remember, this was where she made her decision to have the EA become a PA), there was not all this tension and crying of kids, it will be like this until the end of the year. We can't stay like this!" I made the mistake of saying she was upset because of her period, she argued no, then I left with kids for school.
I hope tonight is quieter...
Me: BH
Marriage: 22 years
2 kids
D-Day 5 Sept 2011
EA w OM started Fall 2010, PA w OM Spring 2011, OM died end Sept 2011
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You need to burst this bubble real quick. Paint her a very ugly picture of how this is going to play out if she wants to leave. Let her know that you won't leave, but if she does she will not take the kids. Tell her you will file for divorce on grounds of adultery and will file for primary custody of the children and possession of the house. You will bring in evidence of her adultery into the divorce case so that it is on record. Tell her you will not be her "friend" and that it will be an ugly, ugly divorce where you will fight to pay her nothing.
There is a very important reason you need to tell her this. She imagines that you will roll over and help her acheive her fantasy. You need to burst that fantasy. Wow, I'm just in process of reading Blackhawk's story, but I can't let this go. Melody, I can't tell you how validating it was to read this post from you. I did precisely this and still to this day have felt like I am being a hard-line A-hole for taking the position I have taken with respect to the protection and well-being of my children. Briefly, what I ultimately communicated to my WW over a period of months was: 1) This is our home where we live with our children. If you decide to leave our home to pursue your own selfish goal to "be happy," our children are not going anywhere. They are going to stay right here, in this house, with me. 2) All these BS fantasies you keep regurgitating about how our children "will be just fine" and how "what will really hurt the children is you being an A-hole and fighting over them" are delusions of grandeur. I have seriously thought, until now, that my hard-line position on her leaving without the kids (and the utter extremes to which I would go to protect my kids from exposure to her downhill spiral) were just that -- extreme. Every single "counselor" and adviser I've dealt with has been really critical of my position on custody of the kids. Even my attorney, whom I still trust, urges me to compromise for the sake of the children should it come to that. No way. I love my wife deeply, but if she ultimately makes the selfish decision to throw my children under a bus -- causing them life-long, permanent emotional pain and suffering as a result, I will fight til the end of the world to protect my children from her. I am anxious to learn more about: 1) How and why it is effective to be very clear about what the negative consequences of a WS's decision to leave the marriage will be. 2) How many times, and for how long do you continue to communicate your boundaries and consequences during the recovery process? What I'm struggling with now is that for me, my position no longer applies only to what would happen if she makes a deliberate choice to leave the marriage and file for divorce; It feels more and more to me that my position should apply in the same way if she makes a conscious choice to NOT commit to giving her all to repairing, rebuilding and renewing our marriage. Mel, your comment about how she just expected Blackhawk to roll over and HELP her throw her husband and children under a bus rings true for me as well. My WW had all kinds of delusional fantasies about how I was going to be totally on board with 50/50 custody, and how we wouldn't even need separate attorneys because there would be nothing to fight about blah, blah. After I made my position clear, she was REALLY F'ing mad that I would "disparage her as a mother" to get my way (she heard this from an attorney) because she would "never" say anything bad about me as a father... Yeah right.
BH (Me): 50
WW (Her): 44
Married 22 years
DD15, DD10
D-Day) 3/18/11
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Shes Mad? Awww the poor thing!
By now you realize that shes chasing rainbows and fantasy's, probably encouraged from who knows what.
Take your pick, there are always salesman wishing to show you the grass in greener over here/there, life wasn't fair, and boo-hoo let me help you achieve nirvana. It is not always men either, but women in the coffee clutch can also do it.
And who understands women as much as another women? Yeah that's the idea anyways. When the truth is probably that its just aggression misguided. They should take up weightlifting or some other form of exercise.
I don't know your story, but the stand you took was the best thing for you and your children all-around physical and emotional health, and is the best chance for you being able to help your W too. if she will allow the truth to reign.
Hang in there and Mel is one of those Woman who can help you, along with many of the posters on this Forum. Remember that you are not alone, and this kind of mental sickness has been around since Eve was tempted, and Adam bought the lie.
I know its like getting neutered, and that's just what they want us to be, men without principles unless they give us one.
Grats that you didn't by that bill of goods
Me 56 Former BS Widowed 5-17-09 --married 25 years. 4 children DS-35 previous marriage--18-22 DGrandSons 6 and 4 Me former BS DD-29 with DGDs 5 and 1yr DSs 26 and 23 Teilhard de Chardin..“We are not human beings having a spiritual experience. We are spiritual beings having a human experience.” ...Sounds about right to me.
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Here is the link to the second part Driven2. http://forum.marriagebuilders.com/u...flat&Number=2563596&#Post2563596I changed threads because I was afraid at one point she was reading the thread. After counseling with Steve though I think she was just following the usual WW script and I was reading too much into her reactions. WW, kids and I leave for a week at her mom's tomorrow, so I may be off-line for awhile. Blackhawk
Me: BH
Marriage: 22 years
2 kids
D-Day 5 Sept 2011
EA w OM started Fall 2010, PA w OM Spring 2011, OM died end Sept 2011
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Constant, I just wanted to say thank you for the words if encouragement and support. They mean a lot to me.
BH (Me): 50
WW (Her): 44
Married 22 years
DD15, DD10
D-Day) 3/18/11
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