I totally see this in myself, too!

I remember when Steve assigned UA to us, we were in the throes of his AOs several times per week and I did NOT want to be around him. At least this past week I've been willing.

I think we're day 14 with no AO, and that's progress too.

However, my H is acting very discouraged right now. Reading my journal really shocked him. I think he feels betrayed that I'd have such strong feelings of resentment while outwardly trying to work on the marriage. He thinks it's dishonest. I guess I was trying to behave properly, share my feelings gently with him and eliminate LBs on my part - and get my raw, unedited feelings out in my journal. Now he says I haven't been honest.

It seems like no matter what I do, it's wrong.

You weren't honest! You wouldn't tell him what you were thinking when he asked.

Go apologize for not being honest, and negotiate a way of getting your complaints heard without fear of AO. Acknowledge YOUR FEAR. To him.

Not how he makes you afraid.

Wow, is Plan A the "Reality Bringer" or what? He is framing the problem for you, setting out the story line for you to believe if you want his acceptance. His temporary acceptance, until the next time you act in a way that is inconvenient to his story line. The story line he laid out is that you betrayed him in choosing to shine the light of day on these things, for yourself. That he and only he is going to determine what level of actions count as "committed" and what doesn't. Counseling, changing your behaviors, none of it counts as committed unless you are also holding to his story line at the level that he determines.

What's your inventory, how deep are you in the fog today? It took me so many times to keep re-reading here on the board and the basic concepts like thoughtful requests, and spending time with folks in healthy relationships IRL, to see what "set up for success" is. This isn't it, hon. Have you thought through what set up for success would look like? Can you set it to paper?

I told my then-H that the next time he put his hands on me in anger that I was going to call the police, let them know what happened, and get out of the way of his consequences. He tried to push his story, that it's nothing, but I was done trying to make myself believe stuff. So I said, I'm not going to argue with you about whether it's nothing. I'll give them the facts and let them decide. If things escalated from there, that would have been good to know, it takes what it takes for me to see things for what they are. But no, once I decided to get out of the way of the consequences, it stopped that day, the physical intimidation. They say the person in the situation is the best judge of her safety. You know what's appropriate for your situation.

Wow. Just wow.

This is true! He feels "betrayed" that I am shining the light of day on his abuse - to myself! Oh. My. Word.

You are right! "He" wants to determine what "Committed" is, and only him! Oh. My. Word.

I'm going to read the rest of what you said, again and again, until it sinks in. Thank you for helping me, NED.

I want to do this, would you please explain what you mean here? Should I just write down what a loving, caring relationship looks like? (It's hard to remember or articulate sometimes - I'm not trying to cop out, but I sometimes have a hard time seeing the "goal" because of the daily "non-goal-meeting" interactions)

This is great advice, and I saw glimpses of this when we were counseling with Steve: he would call my H out to answer my concerns in a loving manner, and it felt like water on the desert to have someone "understand," to be seen, heard. (Steve) I've forgotten what it sounds like, looks like, feels like. How do I get out of this gray place?

Well it sounds like his feelings are hurt. I get that you were journal your thoughts and feelings for you only, but I am wondering if maybe what you wrote had a ton of DJ's..maybe??

Do you think he has made any valid points at all? I could see where if what he read was full of DJ's and anger that you were not expressing he might feel upset and confused and maybe even attacked.

Did you ever discuss with Steve the problems you were having regarding UA time and conversation? If yes, what did he advise? This program can't work without it. What specifically is different about the conversation now vs. when you were happy and in love?

When I first went to my H and started really discussing our marriage, the problems, and my true feelings, what I wanted to do to fix things and my plan to recover our marriage, I admitted to him I had one foot out the door for years. Once he said he was willing to really work and do whatever we had to do, I told him I was ALL IN, and meant it.

I know that once we start cycling, and I shut down and withdraw he starts to question my commitment and thinks I have one foot back out the door! That's when I realize that we need to really sit down and communicate, and get back on track.

An appropriate response to DJs would be something along the lines of, "Ouch, that hurts." "I want to hear what are Aos to you, so I chan eliminate them. How about we keep a weekly log going forward, and go through it once a week like it suggests in the end-of-the chapter exercise. What do you think?" Something non-blaming. Like Z said, to answer her concerns in a loving manner. The response here was that he said he feels like he's being held "hostage," that Zhamila is "just building a case against him," and "beating him down." To negate her experience as if it didn't happen, to portray himself as betrayed by her honesty, that her commitment is on-the-spot and in question, as if that was not okay. Who would want to raise their children in such an environment? How do you teach thoughtfulness in the midst of AOs?

Z, I'm glad he didn't AO last night. He got more subtle, but you have the tools, O&H, to stay on your path and not let it backslide you into walking on eggshells again. And if it does, you can start your day over.

You ask what set up for success looks like. To me the basic concepts made it clear.

• selfish demands or thoughtful requests - Am I asked to do things, and it's "okay" to say no, or am I expected to follow through as it's already been decided. Can I change my mind without being "punished?"
• Disrespectful judgments or thoughtful persuasion - Is my opinion respected or am I expected to think like my partner? Are we using conversation to inform and learn about one another, or to tell the other "how it is?"
• Negotiation or AOs - What happens when we don't agree on how to handle something? Are we having comfortable, easy, conversation and UA time anyway, or am I waiting for the shoe to drop?

NED, it means so much to me that you've been in this situation, and you know what to do. Thank you!

I'm starting to get physically sick. I feel achy all over most of the time, and having GI problems too. It's hard to concentrate at work or even be motivated. I am consumed by thoughts of our problems (even on ADs). I feel "weak" rather than strong, emotionally drained.

I think I know what I should do: I'm just scared to do it.

This is very helpful. Thanks!

Why is this so hard?

Why am I so afraid?

Why am I allowing this in my life?

I think you're right NED (again!)

Z,

I don't understand this. I thought your big issue was his AO's,
he is going to AM, and has NOT had an AO for 14 days.

I get that your marriage is still in trouble, you are still struggling, but he has made (and is still making efforts) worked with Steve, and reads here. He may be missing the mark on some things, but I think getting his AO's under control is a HUGE thing here. I feel like you want instant perfection.

I am on your side here Z, and want you and Mr. Z to have a great marriage to and get to the other side, but maybe you are not giving him enough credit for his progress.

Honestly I do feel like you have had one foot out the door through this whole process. Now it seems to me you are thinking of throwing in the towel because he is upset and has non positive feelings about what he read in your journal, even though he did NOT have an AO. He IS allowed to have his feelings to Z.

I realize NED is a much more seasoned MBer then myself, but this just doesn't feel right to me. I am sorry you are so upset and feeling sick but I just don't understand why. Could it be because you are planning to seperate? That is a HUGE deal and would make me sick too, divorce isn't easy for anyone.

You didn't answer my questions about if what he read was full of DJ's or not. I had come here one day to complain about my H behaviour, it was full of DJ's pointed out to me by Prisca, I thought it was just my opinions and venting. I know now it didn't matter it was still wrong and distructive to my thinking, and marriage.

Maybe I have it all wrong, as I said I am still working on my M, and am not a vet like NED, I hope maybe some of the others can weigh in here....

Thanks for your feedback, TisMe. I appreciate your honesty!

I started to respond to your question, then was afraid I was going on and on. I'll post that one in a minute.

The big problem was AOs (recently) because they escalated when we started counseling with Steve and became pretty scary. Here's the original problem, the reason why I came here, from my very first post:


We are still at square one on all of this stuff.

Yes, he listened to Steve for 3 months, he didn't do his assignments or checklists, and did very little of the research he was assigned by Steve. From beginning to the end he's argued against the POJA. He wasn't showing effort or change of heart, so I stopped the counseling because it felt like a waste of money.

Yes, he's been going to AM classes, and yes he's not had an AO in 14 days...and this is a tough one because he's gone that long before, so I'm not convinced the AOs have truly stopped.

We have cycled up and down so many times...this is typical of an abusive relationship, and is great at keeping people trapped in them, thinking "everything's ok now." I think that's why NED's perspective is so valuable to me: she can see things because she's been there. And it's funny because I can see other people's abusive/controlling relationships on here...but when it's me, it's harder to "see" somehow.

Anyway, I value your input, too TisMe! So please keep sharing and telling me your thoughts. I need all the help I can get!!

I'll post my other answer in a bit.

The MB program says 4 weeks must go by before the lovebuster can be considered eliminated.

You may not trust him until he has gone several months. It will take time for the trust and security to rebuild.

14 days is not long in the grand scheme of things.

Thanks for letting me know, Prisca. That helps.

Thanks for the questions, TisMe.

He never asked me, "How would you feel about my reading your journal tonight?" He just did it, totally IB. It wasn't meant for him to read, so I'm sure reading how much I hate him didn't feel good! But no, I actually didn't DJ because part of the journal was stuff I sent to Steve to see if I was doing my part, and logging our interactions so I could learn what was really happening. So yes, strong language but not DJs.

Secondly, I had told him the things in my journal, except I said them much more gently. e.g. the journal's "I hate him" became "I am very unhappy and want to work on our marriage."

H�s reading stuff was also a problem when we were meeting with Steve. I sent emails to SH (assignments, etc) and H read them all without discussing with me first. Steve said he was torn: O&H is critically important, but he also knew I really needed outside help and needed to be able to get honest feedback, encouragement and advice (I think it was a safety issue). He was concerned that H would IB like that: look at things without discussing first. Steve also talked to each of us alone and stressed the importance of our hearing and saying things freely to him so we could get help.


Yes we did. Steve's primary focus became eliminating my H's unsafe, abusive behavior which had escalated - primarily AOs. Because these didn't end until last week, we never got to the rest of it all. In fact, we were only "allowed" to do UA time the last 2 weeks of counseling (again, because of safety due to H's abuse and AOs).

What's different now? My H interrupts, makes disrespectful judgments, begins blaming and sidetracking intimate conversations. He did not do this when we were dating - which Dr. Harley tells me is typical of Renters, and my research on abuse tells me is typical of abusers.


My H hasn't said this to me. He does not admit that he has any work to do. In fact, after reading a year's worth of agonizing entries in my journal, his entire focus was on my "building a case against him.� Not one word about regretting all the pain he has caused me in our marriage.

This is similar to H�s approach to the Verbal Abuse Agreement - which we tried to negotiate last week. He was more focused on editing the agreement than in being appalled at the many abusive things he's said to me in the past few months. They are all there in black and white, and yet all he said was, "I can't believe you've been tracking me, writing down what I say." No acknowledgement of the abusive things he's said, or how sorry he is for hurting me.

I would love to hear, �I am so sorry. I am committed to changing my abusive behavior and learning the skills I need to build a great marriage.� This would be music to my ears! And you betcha I�d respond with gladness. But I can�t make that happen. I can only take care of my behavior.

And try to be wise.

Z,

Thanks for explaining. I am so sorry you guys haven't made more progress. How long did Steve suggest you keep working, and at one point did he advise a split if no progress was made?

I am still a bit confused, if Steve did undersatand that you were in an abusive relationship, why he didn't want your H to move out then, to work on himsel first?

Do you have a history of finding abusive men or relationships before now?

I get what you are saying about being upset that he read your private journal, I am a very private person myself, and might feel the same way, but thought that the MB program teaches no secrets in a marriage and its OK to check (or read) everything. Did Steve tell your H that he should not read this? If Steve did then I totally understand and would be furious!!

Again I am so sorry for the pain. Please keep us posted whatever you decide.

What is a verbal abuse agreement? Is that from MB?

tisme, I am really sorry if it looks like I am pushing separation. I really am not. One of the things I really liked when I spoke to Steve is that he wasn't pushing an outcome, he talked with me about what was important to my then-H and I in my marriage, and what folks do to get there. And what folks do that derail their progress. Zhamila knows I would be beyond thrilled if her H gets on board with her to build a marriage that would last a lifetime together.

And Z, I understand your reluctance to separate. The lady in the When to Call It Quits took a period of time to get her ducks in a row first. I started with small steps, like making an appointment to see an attorney, finding out what to expect. The small steps will either fit or not fit, confirming your decisions, more data.

CWMI, I remember moments that were similar in their own way in your marriage. What was the turning point there? Was there a turning point, or a gradual, over time thing? How did your H overcome AOs and threatening divorce? It has been an extended time now that you two have transformed your marriage, right?

Thanks again, TisMe.

Steve said he would be guided by how 'safe' I felt - he didn't tell me what to do one way or the other. (separate or not) He did ask how my energy level was, and also told me that when I was done (exhausted) just to file for divorce and go. I asked about Plan B and he said he didn't think it would be beneficial in this case. He said whatever decision I made, if my H wanted to start working on the marriage, he could contact him (SH) at any time and they could build a plan to 'win me back'(e.g. if I decided to leave). He didn't encourage me to separate and keep holding out hope, I guess. This made me really sad, so I've been hedging because part of me doesn't want to give up.


Hm...history of abusive men. Just my upbringing - it was very difficult & full of abusive dad/stepdads. Perhaps because of this, I didn't understand that my needs "mattered" in my first marriage, so I'd stuff them which built lots of resentment and eventually I had an affair. YUCK! (shame) But no...I'm really surprised that I am here. I feel really stupid sometimes.



Steve didn't say "No he can't read it." or "Yes he can." I think that more than O&H policy, he wanted us to use the POJA regarding my journals/emails. I was uncomfortable with his reading them, but H insisted that O&H should override the POJA and did it anyway. I value both, so didn't forbid it, neither did SH. Steve's main concern seemed to be H's IB - doing things behind my back (reading stuff) rather than openly coming to an agreement about it.

I'm disappointed that he read it, but not angry. I knew it would hurt him and wanted to spare him the pain of reading my unedited feelings. Also, it's hijacked him and any progress he has begun. But in the end I suppose it's better to have it all on the table anyway.