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Originally Posted by loveherafaad
She is hard to deal with and I still want to try even though no one can figure out why.

Thanks


You try because it's the right thing to do. It's hard, no doubt about it, but you do it because TODAY you are married and your vows (your integrity) dictate that you love her in good times and bad...in sickness and in health. She is making the biggest mistake of her life and many/most would include her after-life in that summation. Your duty is to TRY to save her...protect her. If she rejects that...that's on her.

That being said...you aren't a fool either. You have your "get out of this marriage" ticket and you're free to use that. But divorce takes time...so you might as well TRY while you REMAIN married. So you just live up to your covenant until the covenant is removed. Duty is a something that should come easy for you to explain to others and people respect those honoring their duties. Sometimes you'll need to assure others that you do see the writing on the wall and that you aren't delusional....just respecting a process which will lead you towards divorce OR recovery and you'll be OK with either result.


BTW...while you continue to attack OM and the affair...don't expect any kindness towards you. It's all about the affair. Mess with her addiction and she'll punish you in an effort to manipulate you to stop. She'll want to convince you it's over and that you have no shot so stop "trying". If you are nice to her and not making waves...then she'll be nice and cake eat in an effort to reward you for being a good boy and not messing with her primary addiction. Thus...the more mad she is...the better you are doing. Busting up the affair with exposure and whatever techniques you can use is the primary objective right now. I love the friend withdrawing his money idea. It would be great to have two friends do this...one on thursday and then one on Friday making her sweat all weekend whether more will show up on Monday, Tuesday...Wednesday the following week. Also...keep asking her out. Even when she says "no"...she's still reporting back to OM who despite what he says to WW, still views you as threat #1 to his relationship and has to wonder if he's getting the whole story from WW (who he knows is a cheating liar). Remember...most everything you say to her gets reported back to him so use that to your advantage (the OM in our lives thought my family was in the Greek Mafia and that my wife had a huge spending problem that he'd never be able to afford).

Good Luck,

Mr. W



FBH(me)-51 FWW-49 (MrsWondering)
DD19 DS 22 Dday-2005-Recovered

"agree to disagree" = Used when one wants to reject the objective reality of the situation and hopefully replace it with their own.
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Thanks Tiger and Mr W: Problem with the friends A) they won't talk to her or B) she won't answer or return calls. She told me last week when we were talking that she has no more friends only aquaintances. I'm still stuck on the "asking her out" bc it pushes her away. I know you all say there is no use in trying to reason with her or understand what she says/does. That makes it harder to try to convince her.

I know she knows I have changed my faults in the marriage and I am willing to forgive her and work on our marriage. She says "All you do is talk and I listen. I CAN'T do that anymore. I can't be your sounding board". It angers her when I do this. She is angry and alone. All she has is him (God only knows if she is seeing anyone other than him or having one night stands). She knows my faithfulness to her and dedication to our marriage. She wants me to finish the separation agreement so we can proceed with the divorce. I'm still trying to "derail that train" but it is difficult to do by myself.

Several people (family and friends) have already witdrawn their money but I do not know if they were vocal with the management as to why. Should I have my friend to this asap or wait until the PI gets proof of the affair?

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Tip? When she says ' I don't want to do that' or 'I don't want to go there' or 'I never want to do things with you' get your acting/salesman face into top gear.

Adopt a slightly surprised expression, as though you work for the lottery and you've just met your first winner who wants to turn the prize.

Say 'Are you sure you want to do that?' - as though you've never heard her - or anyone - turn down such a great offer. Then shrug as if to silently say 'its your life, sweetheart'

Act as if you're doing her a favour and its no skin off your nose if she turns your generosity down.

Do this rather than promising to pursue her. For one thing, her behaviour does not deserve any promises on your part and you shouldn't reward this brattiness with reassurances.

For another, this approach keeps her guessing.

This approach means she has NO IDEA whether you will ask her out again

She has NO IDEA whether she is in danger of losing her cake.
Cake which has been obligingly talkative about the future up until now is suddenly - silent.

Treat an active wayward like an enemy - a chess opponent.

NEVER tell the enemy what's coming next.



What would you do if you were not afraid?

"Fear is the little death. Fear is the mind-killer" Frank Herbert.

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Of course they should be telling the manager why they are withdrawing their money. How else will he know why? The fact that they feel strongly enough about it to take their money to another institution will be all the proof he needs. But offer it up later when you get it from the PI if you have to.

Would any of those friends that are still willing to talk to her be willing to actually go over there? If you have a particularly ornery one I would get him/her to go when POS will be there. Get them to push the issue. Your WW didn't turn her back on all of them because she is in her right mind and doing the right thing. She can't face them because she's completely embarrassed over her behavior but powerless to stop on her own. Your friends need to take it to her doorstep if necessary and shove it down her throat. That's what friends do.


Every man I meet is in some way my superior; and in that I can learn of him.

-Ralph Waldo Emerson


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Originally Posted by indiegirl
Tip? When she says ' I don't want to do that' or 'I don't want to go there' or 'I never want to do things with you' get your acting/salesman face into top gear.

Adopt a slightly surprised expression, as though you work for the lottery and you've just met your first winner who wants to turn the prize.

Say 'Are you sure you want to do that?' - as though you've never heard her - or anyone - turn down such a great offer. Then shrug as if to silently say 'its your life, sweetheart'

Act as if you're doing her a favour and its no skin off your nose if she turns your generosity down.

Do this rather than promising to pursue her. For one thing, her behaviour does not deserve any promises on your part and you shouldn't reward this brattiness with reassurances.

For another, this approach keeps her guessing.

This approach means she has NO IDEA whether you will ask her out again

She has NO IDEA whether she is in danger of losing her cake.
Cake which has been obligingly talkative about the future up until now is suddenly - silent.

Treat an active wayward like an enemy - a chess opponent.

NEVER tell the enemy what's coming next.



Read this over and over again.

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HFLD. Read it over and over. I copied it as well as stuff you wrote and Mr. Wonderful and it is at home so I read it everyday. smile

I stopped texting her and calling her alot (only when necessary) about 4 days before that. Since the stop she has not asked me about the divorce or where I am at in writing the separation agreement. Our anniversary was Aug 2nd. I did not call or text (on the advice of others since I asked her before abour taking her out bc I never missed a anniversary and she was VERY mad and repeatedly said no). She call ed me at 10 am to "see how the kids were doing". She has only done that during the day maybe 3-4 times in the last 5 months. She never even drops by to see them on my days. She them called me 3-4 times to talk about mundane work/schedule stuff. She told me next Sat she was going to a concert with her brother and I said "whatever". She got mad and said "What do you mean whatever?" I said "Uh. You do what you want so whatever. You said yuo are going to a concert so whatever". (WHAT was that???). She then said bc she was supposed to take th ekids out of town to her brothers but plans changed if I had plans she could watch them. I told her sure I had things to do.

She picked them up. I have a sign posted on the front door that is all capital letters "B.J.B." (Be James Bond), Try B.T.Y.A.S.M. (Try because today you are still married). Y.D.D.M (You don't deserve me) and Y.L.M.I.D.L.Y (You lost me I did'nt loose you). She looked at it hard 2-3 seconds yesterday and today (never asked but I know she is curious). It keeps me centered when she shows up.

HFLD said dress up and go out (I ALWAYS wear t-shirts nad jeans). I did as advised and even used cologne. Went to her place to drop off our daughters blanket. WS did'nt say anything but I wonder I she was thinking. I did go out to see friends and then down to the bars. She sees the credit cards so i cahrged a few bars downtown. I called to say goodnight to the kids and I said if our daughter was restless call bc I be in town for about 2 hours. I said I think there is something else and said no Just the thing about our son. She said ok so I said it will be ok if she calls and she got angry bc "It sounds like you are fishing for an invite". I said "Uh No". I said I 'll see you tomm and hung up.

Friends have said she sees her "back up plan" going away and it scares her. As Mr. W said "Ill be ok either way". I made a whole chicken and gave her half and fresh picked beans our son picked. She said thanks. I firgure it throws her off and she does'nt know whats coming. I have a friend who said he could set up a meeting (she is his financial advisor for now)and speak with her giving her the "Do you know what you tand to loose" etc. Sticking with the facts she can't deny.

I have NO odea if she thinks she is makeing a huge mistake and wondering how to fix it. I'm trying to show her what she will miss but at the same time not give her the promise of being here regrardless. I read the advice from posters here and appreciate everything. Still trying to "figure out" WS. Really tryin gto figure my next move that may show her the reality of her leaving and that the best thing in her life is right her wanting to rebuild our marriage.

Next moves?? Still waiting on the PI to get the proof but no idea when OM will be here. Thanks for the continued advice. HArd t otell if it is working or not but I may not be able to tell with the "crazy WS"

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Tiger good advice but even her best friend of 15 years won't speak to her. It is REAL bad. I tried to call her brother but don't know if I can trust him entirely. HFLD said he would help. She knows he has been through this and may answer a call. She is hit or miss on answering calls. No friends talk to her and some don't even talk to me anymore bc I try to make our marrigae work. There is ALOT of damaged feelings. The friends I met yesterday said if we got back some of the people will never be friends with her others may take YEARS to rebuild but would never be the same. I told them about duty and honor bound in the marriage and they did understand and appreciate.

This is tough (Everything on marriage builders is. LOL). She puts on a hard core game face and I'm trying to figure if she just likes the "we are getting along and not arguing but still wants the divorce" OR "maybe I am making a mistake. I'm embarrassed and to proud to admit wrong but I don't want to loose him so what do I do".

I wish I could read her mind. I asked what she is doing with the kids tomm and she said going to a bbq.I asked if the kids would have friends to play with and it is/was a mutual friend that has kids almost their age. Sometimes she does'nt tell me anything at all so I wonder about what she tells me. A week or so ago EVERYTHING was NONE of your business.

Hard to tell if there was a shift in her mind set and if we may have a chance. How to proceed???

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before I read further...

"Mr. Wonderful"????

snort


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This is some good Plan Aing. But don't be scared to call and text her regularly. Just not constantly, if that makes sense. I would aim for a once a day, non kid affectionate/flattering needs meeter. If you aren't dropping by in person, then a text 'how are you today beautiful?' The next day maybe a call to ask her how she's doing, does she want to talk about her day?

Meet all nasty responses with a shrug and an OK catchyou later.

Get in the habit of doing meeting at least one need daily, but at different times and in different ways.

Then just skip a day here and there to keep her guessing.

Get her to enjoy the attention but feel unsure as to whether you'll keep it up forever.

I wouldn't say 'whatever' either. Its kinda anti-affectionate. Always be charming and full of compliments.

It really doesn't matter if it makes her mad or she doesn't like it, etc, this is your plan not hers.

Don't try to read her mind. Its as mad as a box of frogs.

Just keep feeding needs and compliments and affection and fun to her like drugs to an addict.

Just keep telling yourself you'll be in Plan B in six months.

Just show her something that ANY REASONABLE person is going to miss when Plan B comes in.


What would you do if you were not afraid?

"Fear is the little death. Fear is the mind-killer" Frank Herbert.

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Oh and at some point she is going to object to your bar visits and accuse you of being with girls and say that you are just as bad as she is.

Put on the surprised face and say: "hey why don't you come! Put on that dress you look really sexy in and come with!"

Shell say no, but the image of being out having fun with you will stick.

If she doesn't bring it up, invite her out of the blue one day.


What would you do if you were not afraid?

"Fear is the little death. Fear is the mind-killer" Frank Herbert.

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Originally Posted by MrWondering
before I read further...

"Mr. Wonderful"????

snort

So, I wasn't the only one. HAHAHAHA I LOL'd for REAL.

Loveher, STOP TRYING TO FIGURE HER OUT.

The beauty of MB is that the plans are done with NO REGARD to the WSs reactions, or in-actions. You do what you do because it is in YOUR plans.

I'm glad to hear that you are getting more comfortable with Plan A.

Have you read the Art of War thread? It's linked in Indie's siggy. It will help you, a lot during your Plan A. Have you read the Newly Betrayed link in my siggy? It helps explain Plan A more fully.


BW(Me)aka Scotty:37
DSx2: 10,12
DDAY2(PA)Nov27/09
Plan B Dec18/09
Personal R in works
Scotty's THING laugh
Newly Betrayed click here


Praying for walls and doors. Thanx MM

Surviving is important. Thriving is elegant.
? Maya Angelou

PROGRESS NOT PERFECTION

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Thanks fo the advice. I have been printing alot of the advice to read daily and keep focus. Sorry Mr. Wondering (lol). My midnights shifts at work are bad on me. I did cook for her the other day and she asked me to watch the kids for a few hours tomm so she could prep for monday work. Thinking of cooking a chinese chicken she likes and either just telling her I'll make it for lunch for the kids or asking her to come get them when she is done and lunch will be ready. Which is better????

Still "trying" to figure her out and how best to turn her to back to me as long as I am still willing to make it work. DK if she just likes the "no arguing" or she is missing me and realizing what she will loose and is trying to hold me to her.

?????

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Originally Posted by loveherafaad
Still "trying" to figure her out and how best to turn her to back to me as long as I am still willing to make it work. DK if she just likes the "no arguing" or she is missing me and realizing what she will loose and is trying to hold me to her.

?????


Your plan is not to figure her out. Your plan is to be the best you you can be. For your own self worth and so you have no regrets.


What would you do if you were not afraid?

"Fear is the little death. Fear is the mind-killer" Frank Herbert.

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Originally Posted by indiegirl
Originally Posted by loveherafaad
Still "trying" to figure her out and how best to turn her to back to me as long as I am still willing to make it work. DK if she just likes the "no arguing" or she is missing me and realizing what she will loose and is trying to hold me to her.

?????


Your plan is not to figure her out. Your plan is to be the best you you can be. For your own self worth and so you have no regrets.
We can't control others, only ourselves.


FWW/BW (me)
WH
2nd M for both
Blended Family with 7 kids between us
Too much hurt and pain on both sides that my brain hurts just thinking about it all.



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I have no regrets because I am faithful to her and our marriage, have changed my faults and am still willing to try.

She did come over for lunch today (she did'nt say no or even close to object). In keeping with the advice of her "not knowing what I'll do next" I mentioned, in her presence, to our son about grilling out tommm and did not invite her but want to see if she will say anything or ask "what we are doing" (fishing) and then ask her to join us if she asks.

She is getting her brother from surgery wed/thurs so I was toying with asking her over with her brother and his girlfriend for dinner and to let our kids and her brothers girlfriends son play. I think if she says no the OM may be coming over.

I offered and she did take the leftovers home for dinner. I know she likes what I cook and can see that she no longer rolls her eyes or huffs if I offer a meal or to take some with her. I hope I am making a difference and she realizes what she will loose. I am still trying bc "today I am still married".

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I called the PI yesterday evening and told hiim the OM may be there tonight (Monday evening) or Friday. I said Monday night bc she never responded to the offer for dinner. I was right and the PI got the pictures I needed (have not seen them yet). I tried to be calm but my emotions must have shown and she asked me what was wrong. The first time I said nothing just got up. The second time she said "Whats wrong. Yesterday you were joking around and laughing". I said I feel like I am still trying to make the marriage work and dk if she just likes the not arguing or she is thinking about it". She said she is waiting for the separation agreement and still wants the divorce". I said fine. I will work on it.

A friend went to see her (I was upset and sent her 2 texts which were sent as 8). The friend spoke with her for 45 minutes (she does not trust his motives) and she listened. He suggests I stop texting, not do anything about the PI intel and give her space. She said he could talk to me about their meeting bc nothing was said that I did'nt already know.

I soke with her and she is angry about me still trying to make the marraige work. She cried alot when we spoke and I told her that I truly love her more than anyone ever will. I know she knows that she will never find another who will love her and stand by her. I asked her to forgive my role in her leaving and she asked how many chances has she already given me. Not including the affair my role in the demise of our marriage was huge. My role caused her to leave (does NOT mean the affair is fine just a huge reaason for her leaving).

I am trying to figure IF i have a chance at saving my marriage what is the best way to go about it? Few friends who can help NONE of which does she trust. No family on my side for her to talk to (all want the marriage to end but will be ok if we got back together). She insists the divorce is what she wants and gets angry when I say that I still have hope and believe in true love. That before I met her I gave up on love and know I did wrong and took her for granted and am asking for forgiveness and another chance. I told her I know I won't have a problem finding a date but don't want to because i want to save our marriage.

Follow friends advice and give her space? Hold the PI info for another time? Work on the separation agreement and file the papers? I know I wish what most do here that I could 1) change the past or 2) have a crystal ball to see into the future but since that won't happen how best to save the marriage.

Still anger since she is still seeing him. She asked me to ask my nephews to watch the kids next monday. I told her to ask and she said they don't return her calls or text since she left. I intially refused but about 4 hours later called and got them to watch the kids and told her its ok.

This is TOUGH and exhausting!

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This is the time that you need to PLan A your butt off. The next time she talks about the separation agreement, you dodge it. You don't speak about divorce, only marriage. And in Plan A, you don't speak about your relationship at all.

In Plan A, a BH needs to WIN his WW back. It's not easy. And she is going to fight you tooth and nail because she will no longer be able to justify her actions by saying that you are horrible. You cause an internal struggle, and that's what you want. You want her questioning her choices, and if OM meets up to you. He doesn't. We all know that, you know that, now she will learn that.

And who is this "friend" that you sent to speak with her? Why is he telling you to do nothing with the evidence that you gathered? And to just give your WW some space? Sounds like someone was gaslighted to me, at minimum.

Have you read up EVERYTHING on Plan A? Do you know what her top ENs are? Are you ensuring that you are NOT committing LBs? Do you even know what I am talking about when I say this?

And for the love of all that is holy, please stop telling her that you love her, and no one else will love her more. She doesn't feel that you love her at all right now, and when you say this, you are ANNOYING her. STOP IT. Instead of telling her, show her by fighting for your marriage, but fight SMART.

So, you have more proof, why did you want to gather it? Are you using it to re-expose(you did expose to OM's family, friends, WW's family, friends, and your own family and friends right?)? Are you using it to better yourself in a divorce situation? Did you need it to solidify your stance?

How are you going to Plan A your wife for the next day, 2 days, week?


BW(Me)aka Scotty:37
DSx2: 10,12
DDAY2(PA)Nov27/09
Plan B Dec18/09
Personal R in works
Scotty's THING laugh
Newly Betrayed click here


Praying for walls and doors. Thanx MM

Surviving is important. Thriving is elegant.
? Maya Angelou

PROGRESS NOT PERFECTION

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My friend is someone who knows us both but she said she does not trust his motives but spoke with him for about 45 minutes (he and I were both surprised she even spoke with him about our situation). He wants me to hold the PI intel and give her space (he does'nt know MB but basically wants me to plan A). He said give her space, she knows you love her, the ball is in her court and she knows it.

For a week I did'nt text or call much (makes her calmer and better to be around). She is liking the "not arguing and getting along". Came for dinner, appreciated me makeing her dinner to bring to her place for the kids etc. The problem is she states she still wants the divorce and was super cake eating but not necessarily "remembering what she can loose by divorcing". I told her today that she has not mentioned the separation agreement and she said she was waiting for me to finish it and get it to her (to proceed with the divorce).

I talked with my friend and said her situation would not be so difficult and I believe she could make a clearer decision if the divorce is what she really wants if 1) she was not seeing anyone at all 2)the problems with the friends and family I KNOW influence her decision to divorce 3)she accepted a date invitation with me (have not done that yet but did not seem like the right time yet and with OM in the picture makes it almost impossible.

I feel in her heart she knows that he (or anyone for that matter) will never meet up to me but with the loss of friends and family her choice is narrow. I told her today that the road to rebuilding our marraige is very difficult but not impossible. She keeps saying I STILL don't listen to her (part of the demise of the marriage) BUT I told her I am listening to her and understand she wants to divorce BUT I can't accept that. I hear you but can't give up on our marraige and love. She cried and said she had to go.

All our friends and family know of the affair THAT is the problem WS and OM family don't care or as her mother says "She is my daughter I may not agree with what she does but she is my daughter" (NO help even when I asked) and our friends (she says YOUR friends) are furious and won't speak to her and my family is furious and wants me to leave the marriage. My mom was of the attitude that if she comes back and you love her we will accept her but as of late she is more on the side of leave her. It seems I (and our 5 yo son) are the only ones wanting to save my marriage. I still feel she knows she is making a mistake but it is just to hard of a road for her to travel and the easier path is the path she is choosing NOT the path she knnows to be right. She is still upset and angry. She says it is because I say the same thing over an dover (apologize for my mistakes, want to save the marriage etc).

I don't knnow her top emotional needs bc she and I don't spend much time together and she won't let me in on filling any needs. I want her to Plan A and cake eat but she is eating but I don't think it is having the effect it needs to. I know it won't happen overnight but I know the only pressure she will let this slide until the year separation is here and she can divorce without proof. She thinks the OM needs to come to court and testify (all I need is proof of the affair [PI intel]) and that is causing her strife. I am trying to save my marriage but if it winds up in divorce it won't be easy. HFLD says sometimes the pressure and realization that "Oh crap I can loose him" may make her wonder if she is making the right decision.

I did, after the anger subsided, Plan A and ask my nephews to watch the kids next Monday for her because she had to work past my start of work. I'm sure she appreciated me asking bc they won't speak to her.

Any way to get my family on board and try to get them to help Plan A? They are REALLY angry and want nothing to do with her and don't understand why I still try.

Thanks Scotland and all

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What were her top ENs BEFORE the affair? How can you meet those? Hint, read the EN list, and see which ones are usually for men, and which for women. You may get some hints there.

Have you read a lot of other BHs threads on here? You can get ideas on how to meet ENs. You will need to do them in a subtle way at first.

NO MORE RELATIONSHIP TALK IN PLAN A.

Have you read the carrot and stick of Plan A? Have you read the Newly betrayed thread which has some amazing things written about Plan A, and Plan B?

See, when your WW states that you aren't listening to her, and you respond by saying that you understand BUT can't accept it, she thinks to herself, "There he goes again. It's all about what HE wants. He's always been like this. I just want him to LISTEN to me." Hmmmm, maybe conversation is on her list, ya think? And you are supposed to make it pleasant conversation right now.

Are there any funny inside jokes or memories that you can share? And when your child does something cute, you should tell her about it.

Channel the man that you were when you started dating her. You were trying to win her over. You were chasing her. Well, you are doing that again, only this time, you KNOW what she likes.


BW(Me)aka Scotty:37
DSx2: 10,12
DDAY2(PA)Nov27/09
Plan B Dec18/09
Personal R in works
Scotty's THING laugh
Newly Betrayed click here


Praying for walls and doors. Thanx MM

Surviving is important. Thriving is elegant.
? Maya Angelou

PROGRESS NOT PERFECTION

THANK YOU
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Thanks Scotland.

My worry is that it is over or that she has convinced herself it is and believes that no matter what.

I do jooke around with her (our sense of humor together is legendary among our friends). i ahve been working on physical (for me and her. Not a huge part but I'm sure it makes a impression on her). Some E needs she will not allow me to meet because she won''t let me get close to her physically. She does not like me texting her although she says pics of the kids are fine. If I text anything during the day (her work) I am not listening to her. I offered financial support a month ago when she had trouble paying her rent but she said she would find a way (I'm sure she accepted help from OM). My family commitment is the strongest it has ever been and she can't deny that and never would. It has always been an attractive feature. She does'nt want me helping around her apartment (domestic). Can't show her affection (Still firguring how to end the affair but this is tough. Given my job and the fact that NO ONE on OM or WS side cares and my family and friends are done! A handful of friends but she won't listen to them). I make myself as attractive as possible to her physically and with my sense of humor. I would like to ask her out but with the latest turmoil that is not possible. I know a casual dinner out and something fun would be enjoyable but I know now she would say no and wonder if that would be "cheating on OM" (NOT that I care and that is the most ironic thing ever BUT it is a WS mind). I think I need to let things cool off for a week and see what happens. Try for the Plan A my *** off after she cools off. If she goes back to over for some meals and joking around I will probably feel her out and breach the going out question.

I have been VERY honest and open with everything. The finances I review with her at the end of the month even though I don't have to and she shows litte interest but it shows her that I am doing what I did'nt before and am honest.

So I will try to figure out what she needs but since she will not allow me to fill some of those I will fill what I can and work on the others.

I KNOW the loss of our friends and family and the guilt of what she haas done weigh heavily on her not wanting to return. To hard of a road even though I have told her it is a difficult path but I am willing to walk the path with her and our family and marriage is worth it.

Her minds is messed up and I am still here being that faithful and loving husband. Thanks for the help.

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