Marriage Builders®
All: I'm starting this thread for my friend. **edit**whose wife walked out on him. He was initially in denial about her being wayward. I told him that I've been at this long enough to know a wayward when I see one. It is an instance where I'm not happy to be correct.

She got her own place. Exposure so far has happened to a limited extent, but the loose ends are being tied up. Their friends know, his family knows, the OMW may or may not know. We haven't been able to get a hold of her and either the OM intercepted the attempt to call or she's separated and doesn't care OR they have an open marriage and are swingers.

WW is fairly standard. She is totally cake eating right now and gives him mixed signals where on one end she is crying and wants to be friend with him but on the other she is clearly deep in fog and pursuing the affair regardless of cost to her.

I've been applying the 2x4s to shake him out of his fog and get him to understand that she is an addict and that he will only see results by taking specific actions. Reasoning will not work.

I bought him SA which he now has in his possession and he'll be by to post in his own name very shortly.
Is he reading here on the forum yet?

Welcome Loveheraaf.
Thanks helpforlostdads! We will watch for him and try and give him a hand.
It's crazy, isn't it? I currently have 2 friends with WH's that I am trying to help. One won't do anything no matter how much I try to talk to her. My other friend's WH moved out months ago and she has done limited exposure but won't plan B. It's frustrating. I have directed the both here but haven't seen them yet. I hope your friend takes the help that is offered.
He tried to post, but it got erased. He listens and is open to inputs, but is still on plan c.
He has homework tonight. 1. Hangout with son.
2. Read SA.
3. Be still. Chill. Think. Come up with a plan.
While you're studying up please read this and make sure to listen to the clips from Dr. Harley talking about Plan C.
BSs...Plan C is not a Plan
He just came over. Still going through some of his own fog, but I think I gave him some good advice. I'd like to bounce it off the peanut gallery.

She left. She has her own apartment and they both use his parents to take care of the kids.

I told him that his parents need to stop taking care of the kids on "her" day. If she moved out, then she loses the marital privilege and she needs to get her own daycare for her days.

I told him to quit going into her apartment to put kids to bed, etc.

I'm torn at this point on the final piece of advice. I backed up and asked myself what I'd tell a BS I didn't know so I told him to file papers to protect himself and the kids.

I told him he doesn't have to file for a divorce, but can file to establish alimony, child support, and separation. He needs a solid schedule.

A couple of details:

OM works in another state so he and WW don't work together. He lives about 50 miles away.

I told him to quit trying to educate her because it is a waste of time. He acknowledges that there's a part of him that wants to say the "magic words" that will snap her out of her insanity. I told him there is no such thing.

I expressed that he's not following Plan A and that there is no such thing as Plan B. He gives me the excuses regarding Plan B and little kids. I offered to be the IM and told him that the daycare, his parents, or his brother could be the neutral drop off point for exchanging the kids.

He says that her seeing him be strong and cold hurts her more and that it messes with her head because she's use to seeing him friendly, hurt, and wanting to talk.

I expressed that if he's in Plan A then he should use the times with her to be friendly and strong and carefree, but he's not being either at this point.

What makes this all difficult is that she's out of the house.

So I told him that he needs to file for abandonment and let her see very real consequences for leaving. She's been making every excuse in the book for not filing papers.

I told him that it is because he is her fallback guy if things don't work out with POSOM. She is doing classic cake eating.

She wants to have family time together and do things together, but only when it is convenient for her. She doesn't like it when he drops in on her unannounced on "her" weekends.

So that's where things stand today. I hope he gets on here and posts.

One matter of concern is that **edit**. She could accuse him of threatening and he would have all kinds of hell come down on him. We're in**** so using a voice recorder is illegal unless he informs her she's being recorded. Thinking about it, I will advise him to carry one with him to protect himself and to be very open with his interactions with her about recording so that there is no false accusation.

She hasn't gone down that road and I don't think she will, but she's a wayward and waywards are stupid, as we all know.

So any advice?
The most impactful thing he could do for his marriage is to do a very widespread exposure, including the OM's family and friends. Exposure ruins affairs. OM are RATS who are run off fairly easily. If he exposes the affair to his family then they might not welcome his wife into their family. It would ruin the affair.

He should find the OM's facebook page and expose to all his contacts. SEnd him the link in my signature and tell him to follow those instructions.

OM do not like any trouble over a cheap piece of side action, so he should cause as much hell in his life as possible. He needs to go confront the OM too.

I agree with your suggestion for him to get legal protection. He should probably just file for divorce and drag it out for 2 years. If the affair dies in that time, he can just drop it.
The problem with "confrontation" is that ***edit***could basically cost him his job.

Exposure is done. Her family knows. His family knows. Friends know.

It has worked to isolate her. OM is basically all she has.

OMW either already knows, doesn't care, or had the calls to her get intercepted.

We have good intel that they may be swingers.

So exposure is done. OM has FB on private, but the exposure to those that matter is done.

We're looking into adultery laws.***edit***

I don't know if there are alienation of affection laws **edit** Looking into it all.
So he has personally spoken to the OMs parents and his wife? If that has not happened, then this affair is not exposed at all. That is not an area where corners can be cut.

Wo exposed WHAT to her family?
There's no 'alienation of affection' in ***. Adultery [if legally proven] is a class 4 misdemeanor here. That + $1.77 will get a BS a cup of coffee. So that's not gonna help.

Massive exposure without warning is the way to go.

I'm no lawyer, but seems to me that one option is to have someone expose things for your friend on his behalf. That could give him plausible deniability, as re: his job. But if he's worried about that angle, he ought to talk to his departmental lawyers, and his union reps. **edit**oughtn't to mean giving up the same rights as any other citizen has to fight for his marriage.
Mel,

I'm on it. I'm here with him and ask him those questions.

BH exposed to BIL, who is on his side. He tried to contact MIL. He's planning on talking to her. I advised him to text her or email her in case she won't answer her phone.

BIL already knew and says the family already knows.

I advised him to take an all business, emotionless tone with WW and focus all conversations on kids. Any talk outside of that is a waste of time so long as she's in an affair.

I advised that if she tries to argue or go outside of basic logistics, to return the conversation to the kids.

He plans on filing on Monday for separation.

"BIL already knew and says the family already knows."

This is exactly why your friend needs to call them all personally and expose the affair. It is very likely the WW told them some spin story. It isn't exposed at all unless HE does it.
I'm encouraging him to and he's not afraid to (exposure). He's trying to get a hold of MIL.

The toughest thing for him to swallow is the idea that when it is his time with the kids it is his time and when it is hers it is hers. I told him that that is the ugly truth that neither he nor she is ready for.

I told him that by going to her apartment to hang out with her and the kids feeds the illusion of the friendly divorce and is an indirect endorsement of how things are.

He's doing his best to take on the attitude that his marriage is over. I told him that taking that attitude will help him emotionally detach to take the actions necessary to either save the marriage or preserve his rights as a dad.

I told him that the old marriage truly is dead and that if there is to be a marriage at all it will be new and rebuilt.

I told him to make talking about the logistics of the kids the ONLY thing he talks about. Anything else is not to be addressed or is left to the lawyers.
Help,

You are a GREAT friend.
I hope he posts. He has his own degree of fog, as we all did. There's still that part of him that hopes the magic switch will go off in her head where she'll see how stupid she's being.

I agree she's being dumb.

His LB is draining for sure. I explained to him the importance of emulating James Bond. It isn't about being angry with her or being harsh or cold. It's about being cool. It's about being a man of action and not one of reaction.

I told him that he HAS to protect his legal rights because she could legally up and leave to VA with the kids and he can't stop her UNLESS he has some legal process in the works.

The ugly different possibilities got his attention.

I also encourage him to separate his finances. He says he can't for various reasons, but I know full well (and hope you guys supply the 2x4s to support) that it isn't too complicated. He needs to setup his own account to pay bills and then contact the debtors or collectors about the change.

By establishing legal papers, he ensures she is obligated legally to pay her share of the bills. She makes more than him.***edit*** So on the one end he's "using" her to pay the bills, but on the other he needs to make a statement that joint anything won't fly anymore so long as she is wayward and in an affair.

He's listening, I think.
****edit*** Hope they snap out of it and realize how stupid they are being? Hmmmmmm

Loveheraaf, I hope you post. You are setting yourself (and your kids) up for serious consequences if you don't protect yourself/them from WW.
I'm the husband. First post and I appreciate everyones opinions and help.

A few points:

1) I am filing for separation Monday using my parents money so she does not see money missing from the bank (element of surprise).

2) I'm at a point where if it works it does if it doesn't I'm ready to pop smoke and move out.

3) My children are my only priority now.

4)I do not text her anymore or call her unless it involves the children. I have not given her the Plan B letter yet but I will post that for opinions (see below). Please keep in mind that **edit***my situation is delicate to keep my job and public trust.

5) She has intitiated all texts since my attitude adjustment a few days ago. She had the kids call me before bed last night(we both have calls everynight to say goodnight to the kids). She usually would hang up after, not always, but last night talked about child exchange tomm. I kept a it children only conversation. She asked when I am picking them up and I said "I have no room in the cruiser and will want to take a shower asap". She offered to drive them to me smile. I could tell she was sad (EASY and obvious to hear in her voice). The old me would have asked me "What's wrong?" or "Are you ok?". She said ttyl and I hung up with no response.

6) My plan B HAS to be my plan B because of my family not cooperating with a child exchange so she does not see me. Trying not to pay for any daycare and when she sees me only for child exchange and I am not the weak and "please take me back" person I was before (Yes the book is great so far) she is loosing her "Cake" side I provided for her. I do not pick the kids up or contact them during her time except for calling them to say goodnight. My plan B is modified but I have NO other options and it wears on her bc I am strong when seeing her. I know she wants to see (Subliminally or not) the weak me to give her strength and keep her cake side I gave her before.

7) My place in my head and heart is if she wants to come back it is my non-negotiable terms and if she chooses to leave or not agree to the terms than there is a woman out there who appreciates a honest man with a good job, who is a great father, cooks, cleans and is faithful to the core.


MY LETTER TO HER:
Not delilvered yet. Separation papers first. Btw AFAAD is "Always forever and a day". Used to end all letters that way when we first started dating. "My ****" is my reference that I told her last week that "I dont know who in the **** you are but My would never do the things you did to my and I will always love "My ". Sorry this was long. Thanks. ***** is our children name ( habit to hide stuff like that). I dont refer to the OM because he is not worth my breath.


WW,
I apologize to you for my part in creating an environment that helped make your affair with him possible.

I made poor financial decisions and was very disrespectful to you but I have truly changed. I also understand my lack of responsibility to meet your most important emotional and physical needs. I was not there for you when you needed me the most and we are both suffering for my mistakes and now your additional mistakes. You should know that I never cheated on you however and always loved “My *****” with all my heart and soul.

I will avoid the errors I've made in the past for the rest of my life and we can create a new life together for both of us that will meet all of our needs. But I cannot do that until you end your relationship with him once and for all.

Until then, I will avoid seeing you or talking to you unless exchanging ***** and *****. Emails, texts or conversations must specifically relate to ***** and *****. They are my only priorities in life at this time.

I will still keep my promise to “My *****” with regards to my new financial outlook on life.

You are welcome and encouraged to call anytime to speak with ***** and ***** day or night. Even if it is not your day to have them I, again, highly encourage you to make arrangements by emailing or texting me to take them out to spend time with them. I hope you would allow me to also do this to spend time with ***** and *****. This is a devastating time for ***** but especially for ***** and he needs all the time he can spend with his families.

I ask you to respect my decision to separate from you this way. You must know about the severe suffering I am enduring because of all of your lies, the dramatic change in your personality and worse your repeated affair with him, and I simply cannot see you any longer while you are with him or anyone other than me.

I remember great times with you like the romantic weekend of your 18th birthday and the whirlwind proposal in Ireland. I will never forget small memories or major events in our lives. I still deeply love “My *****” but I cannot see you under these conditions.

As soon as you are willing to permanently separate from him and are willing to follow measures that ensure total separation, I will be willing to discuss our future together.

We need to build a new lifestyle together in which everything we do for each other makes us both happy. Then there will never be any reason for us to separate again or find others to fill a void. I want to be your greatest lover, best friend and the only person you will ever need to be there for you when you need me for anything. I want you as my best friend.

I loved you since the day we met, when we married and I continue to love “My *****” right up to this day. I just cannot be with you or help you as long as you are seeing him.

Loving My ***** AFAAD,
****
Welcome to MB,




Originally Posted By: loveherafaad


2) I'm at a point where if it works it does if it doesn't I'm ready to pop smoke and move out.




But your wife is already "moved out", isn't she? So what does this mean? Do you live in an apartment and you and the kids are going to "move out" to say, your parents?

The fact that she left the marital home/abode should help you secure as much custody as possible through any potential divorce scenario. Although you are fighting to save your marriage you must also fight to protect your rights and your children on the back side against negative legal outcomes in divorce. Having her out and you in the marital home/abode speaks well for you. It's as though she abandoned the family and you stood by the children and courts like children to be placed, to the greatest extent possible, in familiar circumstances (i.e. - the home of their youth).

"Don't Move Out"- it's rule #1 for betrayed husbands



Another point....betrayed husbands are often eager to jump on the Plan B wagon as they look for a plan, any plan to help them desperately save their marriages. I haven't read or seen enough of your story (from you) to know whether NOW is quite the time for a Plan B letter just yet. Plan B is more about saving YOU than saving the marriage and you may want to execute some Plan A stuff BEFORE you head in to Plan B. Maybe not....but it's worth a discussion. How long has it even been since D-day??? How are you holding up emotionally? If I told you Plan A was more likely to save your marriage than Plan B today...would you tell me you just can't stomach doing Plan A anymore, emotionally speaking???? Plan B involves and ultimatum and if you aren't prepared yourself to go completely dark...you'll fail at it and completely ruin Plan B. Ultimatums don't work unless you are prepared to walk the walk.


I've called out an old poster here *****that went through this back in 2006-2007 (I don't think his is story on MB because his xw found his thread). He had some of the same issues you're having with exposure and your duties as a man.*******. We'll see if he emails me back. I've known a few posters to save their marriages and families even after a WW moved out....others have been luckily and thankfully divorced. MB will help you get to the bottom of your situation (divorce or saving it) in the most efficient and healthy manner FOR YOU and your children. Resolution is the key and MB is here to help you achieve that.

Either way....YOU WILL MAKE IT.


Mr. Wondering



lh, welcome to Marriage Builders. I am sorry for the reasons that bring you here.

I would suggest that you put off Plan B for a few more months if you want to save your marriage. You have a much better chance of saving your marriage if you execute Plan A for a while longer. You have a distinct advantage over the OM in that you a) have history with her, b) are the father of her children and c) her affair is doomed.

Her affair has a very small chance of making it. About 5% of affairs ever make it beyond 2 years. The very traits that make them possible, thoughtlessness and deceit, eventually make their way into the affair and it goes into a freefall.

What will cause the affair to go into a freefall is causing as much conflict as possible in it. Exposing the affair is ruinous because affairs thrive on secrecy and fantasy. When it is exposed, that all falls apart.

So, I would take a much more strategic approach if I were you and instead of going into full retreat, get out on the battle field and kill the affair. You have a much greater chance of winning this war than the OM if you will just fight smart using the best weapons. You have a distinct advantage over the OM if you will just use it.

I would execute a very thorough, wide spread, strategic exposure. Read the thread linked in my signature. It will give you both strategy and tactics.
Originally Posted By: MrWondering

I've called out an old poster here that***that went through this back in 2006-2007 (I don't think his is story on MB because his xw found his thread). He had some of the same issues you're having with exposure and your duties as a man.*****


He did a very complete exposure, however, he didn't confront the OM because of potential conflicts.
I just remembered that since he couldn't confront the OM directly, that he filed for divorce on grounds of adultery and had that RAT subpeonaed into court. They worked him over on the stand.
Welcome to MB, afaad

Originally Posted By: loveherafaad
6) My plan B HAS to be my plan B because of my family not cooperating with a child exchange so she does not see me.


How is your family not cooperating?

When was Dday? How long has the A been going on? What are the ages of your children?
Originally Posted By: MrWondering
I haven't read or seen enough of your story (from you) to know whether NOW is quite the time for a Plan B letter just yet. Plan B is more about saving YOU than saving the marriage and you may want to execute some Plan A stuff BEFORE you head in to Plan B. Maybe not....but it's worth a discussion. How long has it even been since D-day??? How are you holding up emotionally? If I told you Plan A was more likely to save your marriage than Plan B today...would you tell me you just can't stomach doing Plan A anymore, emotionally speaking???? Plan B involves and ultimatum and if you aren't prepared yourself to go completely dark...you'll fail at it and completely ruin Plan B. Ultimatums don't work unless you are prepared to walk the walk.


Ditto

I do like the Plan B letter though.
LH was just over. Been reading through the responses together.

I explained that Plan B is complete darkness. He insists it isn't possible because of the kids, so in effect he is in Plan A.

Given that it is Plan A, then a letter to her isn't called for. I'm going to advise him (he just got called away on a job matter) that he not announce what he's doing (through the letter) but that he simply do it. In other words, show through actions versus words that he's a changed man.

He's been doing Plan A things. He got unfinished house projects completed, has had family time with her and the kids, was talkative and friendly.

Right now, however, he's transitioning to a place where he feels stronger and in more control. He wants to be James Bond cool and basically show the strength and spine of self respect he had been lacking up until now.

So his contact and communications with her is minimal.

I don't want him to waiver on the legal steps he must take. I think he'll be afraid to take the steps because what he's doing so far seems to be having an effect (in terms of her responses to him).

I think he needs to file regardless. Her reactions to him tell me that Plan B would be extremely effective but so would him standing up and fighting legally (not for a D, but for formal separation, CS, alimony, etc.)

Mr. W, can you file for a separation and not for a D?
Hfld, let him know that Plan B is possible with kids and we can help him with that if he reaches that stage. However, his Plan a is going to be ineffective if he doesn't expose the affair. Exposure is his most powerful weapon and he can't afford to skip that step.
There are different legal terms used in VA and MD similar to separation but they aren't called separation. Adultery is a fault that can be cited in both states. Depending on what is cited also affects the filing requirements.

How long has WW lived in MD? MD has a one yr residency requirement. BH will also have to consider that if he files in MD he will have to travel to MD to deal with their courts during the process and maybe even thereafter.
Exposure is done, Melody.

His family knows. Her family knows. Friends all know.

OMW won't take his calls.

The rumor, before all of this broke, was that she was seeing a couple who were swingers. So OMW may not care as she was involved.

We don't know how true that is, but we have good intel that this was the case and the response from exposure to OMW tells us that there may be a kernel of truth to it.

WW won't get pressure from her family. There's been a lot of D in her family and WW's mom (MIL) justifies the affair by saying that WW moved out.

On the one end she supports LH, on the other she is taking WW's side. In other words, she's an enabler and doesn't have the moral backbone to tell her DD that she has her head up her a$$.

BIL is supportive, but doesn't talk to WW.

Originally Posted By: MelodyLane

I would suggest that you put off Plan B for a few more months if you want to save your marriage. You have a much better chance of saving your marriage if you execute Plan A for a while longer. You have a distinct advantage over the OM in that you a) have history with her, b) are the father of her children and c) her affair is doomed.



This bears repeating. Dr. Harley has noted that a WW will typically respond to being "chased" (Plan A) better than a quick and decisive Plan B, which they will note as a lack of care.

By all means, make the needed preparations for Plan B - for instance, securing an IM - until then, Plan A your butt off.
Thanks for all the help. She moved out and into an apartment 15 minutes away. I am NOT seeing anyone else (never cheated never will). I am in plan A. Will give her the above letter tonight (modified a little). I STOPPED calling her and texting her all the time. I don't call unless to say goodnight to my children. I don't text her unless child related. I don't know if she will come back but way to early to tell. I am at a "good" place. My version of D-Day is the day I feel the marriage is dead and I have nothing to loose and if she does not come back I will be fine. I still want her to come back (If she cuts ALL ties with him, apologizes and is honest with me and answers my questions).

When I say I popped smoke. It is my mental rehersal and focus: The helo dropped me off, I popped smoke, locked and loaded and moved out. She has the choice to follow my until I loose her in the dense jungle so she better hurry. The longer the affair goes on the faster I move and cover my tracks.

I will see how things go and update on the forum. Thanks for any advice.
This is not Plan A. Plan B is ??? For whatever reason you don't want to answer basic questions. Whether you want to go Plan A, B, D or FU there are things to consider. Right now I have no idea what you are doing given the info provided.

Good luck I guess.

Originally Posted By: loveherafaad
Thanks for all the help. She moved out and into an apartment 15 minutes away. I am NOT seeing anyone else (never cheated never will). I am in plan A. Will give her the above letter tonight (modified a little). I STOPPED calling her and texting her all the time. I don't call unless to say goodnight to my children. I don't text her unless child related. I don't know if she will come back but way to early to tell. I am at a "good" place. My version of D-Day is the day I feel the marriage is dead and I have nothing to loose and if she does not come back I will be fine. I still want her to come back (If she cuts ALL ties with him, apologizes and is honest with me and answers my questions).


You are making strategic mistakes that will not help your marriage. The things you are doing will make the situation worse. Do you want help saving your marriage?
Originally Posted By: loveherafaad
Will give her the above letter tonight (modified a little). I STOPPED calling her and texting her all the time. I don't call unless to say goodnight to my children.


Your absence will only make her grow more detached from you and closer to the OM, which will make it much more likely that you end up divorced. You are essentially pushing her towards the OM. You have the competitive advantage here but are making it so that the OM has the advantage. You are snatching defeat from the jaws of victory.

Will you accept that you have no experience and no expertise in saving marriages and allow us to help you? You are taking advice from the guy [yourself] who got his marriage in this sad place.
What letter are you giving her? Plan B isn't warranted yet - and you've said you couldn't do one even if it was!

You're supposed to be Plan Aing and fighting for the marriage.

This involves carrot and stick. Give her carrots in the form of her needs and looking good,and stick involves exposure and standing up for yourself. The legal advice is a great way to run OM off.

You can't wing the plans or 'modify' them based o n your feelings/a waywards reactions/convenience/the weather

Those who have recovered their marriages or escaped false recoveries followed a narrow path. Its a recipe that must be followed exactly.

Its like trying to bake a cake without any flour and using salt because it looks like sugar.

You're making a mess. Stop, listen, follow the plans.

Your WW is fairly typical and you have a good shot if you can follow instructions.
Dude, please listen to the experts here. Satisfying your ego is not the best way to save the marriage you have for the sake of your children. Plan A is geared toward showing her the best you have to give/offer/be. Plan B is total blackout from contact/support. Doing one, or the other, is the MB program.

I'm not sure why you think what you are proposing stands much chance of recovering your union. Those of US who strike out blindly without MB support waste time and opportunity.
Sorry to see you have a need to be here lh, but be thankful you are and welcome.

You are so close to busting this up IMO, but the missing element is confronting the OM face to face. I truly do understand your trepidations about this with your profession and all, but as someone alluded to previously, it shouldn't preclude you from exercising your rights as a man and a husband. I understand where you are coming from, but frankly, it's nothing but an excuse for not doing everything you need to do to bust this sorry [censored] and do what is right by your wife and your marriage. YOUR marriage. You are doing yourself a serious disservice to not only yourself, but more importantly, to the one you say you love. Your job is to protect her, and right now she needs protection more than ever before. That's your job. You assumed it when you said, "I do". You are failing miserably in this regard.

If you're so hung up on the confrontation with this POS then why not go to your commander (or whatever he's called, forgive my ignorance on this) and explain the situation. Find out straight from the horse's mouth what you can and cannot do. It may seem embarrassing to consider, but why should it be? Think about it; what have YOU done wrong?

Don't make the mistake of assuming you have no options here when you haven't even taken the time to explore what options you just may have.
Hey all, I've got my pulse on the situation firsthand. He's not going into Plan B. He knows he's in Plan A. What's changed is that he is no longer the doormat.

She's seeing him stand up for himself, set boundaries, and is reducing the types of things that were turnoffs for her (such as the crying).

He didn't say he was going dark. He told her he won't address anything unless it regards the kids.

He has done good Plan A things. He's reading SA, has cleaned up his place, himself, and is focusing on his kids.

She's been thrown off by the sudden spine. She's been fishing for contact with him that falls outside of the kids.

I told him the objective here is to appear respectable, be cool, no longer whine and cry around her, and focus his efforts on his kids.

He can't confront the OM face to face. Tomorrow he seeks legal papers for separation. He's made it clear to her that he's happy to discuss ways to repair the marriage. Confronting OM face to face puts him and his career in danger. It is far to easy to *****and report him for threatening someone, even if he isn't.

LH, don't get defensive on the board. Absorb what is being said. I share some of the opinions of those here.

You're drawing boundaries, showing backbone, and are no longer reacting but acting.

My question to the board members is this:

Should he permit her to enter the marital home "for family time" if she seeks that out? What if she wants to hang out with him and the kids?

This is the part I'm a little torn on. Part of me says that if she seeks time in the marital home to do so and make the LB deposits. But at the same time, doing this has simply continued to let her cake eat and straddle the fence.

This is the strongest I've seen him in months. He has a plan, has grown a backbone, and is drawing boundaries so he's no longer a doormat.

He and I are in agreement that he's in Plan A since Plan B hasn't been setup properly yet. Some logistical matters with the kids need to happen first in terms of setting things up with his parents. I'm working with him on that one.
If he's in Plan A then he should be spending time with her making deposits, correct?

Yes time with the kids.
Originally Posted By: helpthelostdads


Hey all, I've got my pulse on the situation firsthand. He's not going into Plan B. He knows he's in Plan A. What's changed is that he is no longer the doormat.

This is the part I'm a little torn on. Part of me says that if she seeks time in the marital home to do so and make the LB deposits. But at the same time, doing this has simply continued to let her cake eat and straddle the fence.



He is not in Plan A at all. He is making serious strategic mistakes and doesn't know what is doing. By being distant, he is giving the OM an ADVANTAGE over him. And by neglecting to expose the affair, he is all but handing his family to the OM on silver platter.

He needs to be in Plan A, where he should be competing for his wife. But he is not doing that. Rather, he is standing back and making the OM look good in comparison.

We can't help this guy if he won't listen, hlf.

Here is what he needs to be doing if he is serious about saving his marriage:

The Carrot and the Stick of Plan A

The carrot of Plan A


Meeting your wandering spouse's emotional needs.

Making "home" a warm and inviting place to be.

Placing emphasis on what has worked in the marriage.

Showing consistent self improvement in areas where previously lacking.

Stop lovebusting behaviors.

Communicating with a calm reassuring voice and relaxed body language, even in the center of a verbal storm created by the infidel.

Becoming the person any reasonable spouse would want to come home to.

Remaining open to the possibility of recovery.

Offering forgiveness and understanding.



The stick of Plan A


Exposing adultery where it matters most. Exposure that takes the form of a swift and sudden unexpected tsunami of truth.

Not appologizing for exposure or speaking the truth in a kind yet direct way.

Directly communicating the hurt and devastation that the affair has caused.

Not accepting blame for the infidel's choice to become adulterous.

Let the consequences of adultery and infidelity fall freely upon the heads of the adulterous.

Establishing boundaries that disallow the affair to effect children of the marriage, financal security of the marriage, and otherwise ruin innocent bystanders.

Standing up to infidelity as a beast that must be slayed for the good of the family.
Apparently he is ignoring our posts so I see no reason to continue posting here until he responds to my posts and starts following the program. I certainly don't have time to post to someone who is not here to get advice.
I did all of that. About a month ago I found out about the affair and confronted her. Friends told me of it and the confrontation was by phone. She lied and then had to confess. I cried and forgave her quickly. We met ftf the next day. We both talked and cried. I said she can't be on the fence as she put it if she is seeing him. She stated she would not stop seeing him. That morning I got angry with the situtation and called her at 3am. I told her how much she hurt me with the affair and stabbed me right in the back and straight through the heart. I tod her she will not have him and me. She has to make a choice. Him or me. I called her at 10 am and asked her if she had 4 minutes.

WS "It's done"
BH " Whats dome"
WS "What do you think"
BH "Well I assume by the crying you didnt pick me"
WS "I broke it off with him this morning"
WS "Don't call me. Leave me alone"

After there were family dinners. Time with the children. Watching movies at our "home". I offered to cook her favorite meals. Spoke with her. Reassured my love and wanting the marriage to work. She wanted to start marriage counseling. She came over one night about 2.5 weeks ago for dessert our son and I made. We tucked the kids in to bed. Then we stood in the hallway and a romantic night ensued. I thought we are on track (NOT there but headed in the right direction). WRONG!

My birthday July 3. She buys a laptop and internet and home phone so we can see the kids when sayong good night. Nice right? Earlier in the week she asked what I wanted for my birthday. I said for us and the kids to go to dinner then watch the fireworks together. She agrees. July 3 I remind her of it and she says. Let me think about it and later saying No. She had to stay in and work.

I took my kid an 15 year old nephew to dinner instead but brought 2 pieces of cake over to share on my birthday. Knock on the door. Hesitation. She answer in a sexy tank top no bra. Red faced. We enter she goes into her room put on a bra and shirt. My 2 year old daughter tries to open the door and my wife goes nuts. "NO ONE IN THE ROOM". She was about to leave and get a photo for my son from her car but changed her mind and siad we will get it when you leave. 2 bags were there that I had never seen before. I peeked. Mens shaving gel, hypodemic needles, a toothbrush etc. She could not look me in the eye without appearing shameful and embarrassed. lone in the kitchen I confronted her about the needles. WS "Its a medical condition I'm working on". BH "They dont give you needles for something you're working on". WS shows arms (I know its not heroin most likely he is diabetic). I ask her about the bags "They are from work". I ewxamine a bag "Get off my stuff". We leave and at the car I say "I neeed to talk to you but away from the kids". I ask her Whats going on. WS - Nothing BH- Whats going on? WS - Nothing BH "How long has he been up there?". Blown up mess. Outside her apartment I yelled to him "Thanks alot MF for ruining my marriage. She got angry and then sad. The net day I called her and aske her if her left that night WS- "All I will share with you is that I was a train wreck". Happy birthday right

SO -

I HAVE been trying to fill the LB. Show her and encourage family time. Be the man she loved, buried the man she did'nt and was showing her the new husband and father that rose from the ashes. His side does not care. Her family takes her side even if they dont agree with her decision. I want to save my marriage. She is hard to read (BEST poker face ever).

Any help is appreciated. I still want to sav my marraige. She is in FB blackout and bascially off the grid. She has no more of the friend support that she had before the affair (I told her I would always be there for her and even 4 days ago told her we could still make the marriage work). She finds diff excuses to avoid divorce (I don't want it). She is cake eating and I am running out of cake to provide. I would still offer all the family and me time and give space IF she was NOT seeing him.

I know this was long but trying as I have time to provide more intel.It's hard to see the whole picture. BTW - BAD child hood (domestic, raising her siblings at a young age). Her mother and siblings ALL are have disfunctional relationships. She was the only "shining star".

ADVICE?
I hane not been posting becauese I only had internet at work until today and dont get much computer time at wotk. With the affect on friends and family I am fighting so many fronts on this war and defending her. Most tell me to move on. I tell them "My *****" who I love is still there somewhere and needs my help and love. Thanks
Her childhood has zero to do with it, but you are right the 'real' her is in there somewhere.

Lovebank deposits from OM have turned her, but lovebank deposits from you can tempt her back.

Of course you need exposure and the stick of Plan A to prevent cake eating while you make lovebank deposits.

Think of her as having been swallowed by an alien and the alien is in charge. Nothing the alien says or does is trustworthy and the A must be slayed.in order to slay the alien.

You must make lovebank deposits in order to keep a foot in the game.
She is your wife. She must see what kind of marriage she is chhosing to bail on. Be attractive, strong, funny and affectionate. Spend time with her. It is possible to do this while drawing a line in the sand. Find the strength.

You must insist she behave as a married woman and tell her she will lose you as coparent and friend if this keeps up.

Tell her she will never speak to you again if she chooses this path. And mean it.

If the OM ever dares show his face around your family again, you tell him to leave.
OM has never shown his face to me since this began. What should I do. His side and her family will not help and she has NONE of our friends she used to have to intervene. It's me fighting by myself to stay married. Should I get the separation agreement? I want to save my marriage but she lost the respect and love of my family (can be rebuilt) and our friends. She has no one here but the OM and her work (aside fromour kids). What should I do to win her back. Does it show weakness to break the rules of my own letter? or does it show kindness and start to fill the LB?
Thanks indie girl and everyone for the help. With internet and a laptop now I'm on it. She will pick our daughter up tonight so I need a plan.

A) keep with the letter rules
B) Break them and speak with her about the letter and what I meant?
C) ???
Well I think the letter was a mistake because it was all over the place and did not follow any MB plan. I was hoping you hadn't given it to her

For a start you promised in that letter to financially support her no matter what she did! Are you going to pay for her affairage (affair that turns into marraige) wedding too?

Fortunately she's wayward and they do not listen, much less read, things which are not enforced so she's probably paid it very little attention.

I would ignore the letter and start Plan Aing her.

If she refers to the letter, just chamge the subject.

It's easy to do that with waywards. So much affair-dope in their brains its like talking to a drunk.
I’ve gone back and forth in my head about your best course of action. I think Plan A has been done as you described. You’ve had some good moments with her and have made deposits. She claimed to dump him and things got a little better, but as I suspected and told you, she continued the affair underground.

I know the birthday incident really hurt you. It was a huge drain on your LB. That’s why I was chewing on Plan B as being your best option since she dumped him but then went back.

The problem is that you’re unable or unwilling to totally go dark. As I’ve said, and as the forum members will tell you, there is no such thing as a “modified Plan B.” You’re either in it or you’re not.

So I suspect SH would advise you to continue Plan A. You may be able to email him. He’s been known to respond. He also takes calls on his radio show.

Plan A basically means you’re a man with a spine (James Bond) and you reinforce the times she behaves like your wife.

You mentioned to me how she was hot and cold after dumping OM. I knew right away she was still in contact because of it. The Jekyll and Hyde syndrome is big evidence that there is still contact.

Since you’re unable to do Plan B (I think you could make it happen), then stick with Plan A.

So there is opportunity tonight when she comes and gets the kids. Be welcoming into the marital home. Be approachable, but not weak. Act like a confident single guy she’s interested in. If anything, be dressed up like you’re going out and are just waiting for her to get DD so you can head out. In other words, don’t look downtrodden and depressed, but attractive and desirable and like you’re carrying on with your life. Don’t be over talkative. Be cool but not cold. Keep the conversation simple and about the kids. Listen to her and say little in return. Perhaps repeat back to her what she said so it shows you’re listening. Don’t agree with her rationalizations and justifications.

If she tries to tell you that you two could be friends after a D, clarify that you can’t.

Keep things short. Look like you’ve got plans you need to get to once she takes your DD. Don’t be an open book. Don’t clarify where you’re going, even if you’re only heading to the Safeway down the street or to your parents.

Plan B can’t be done half a$$ed. You’re either dark or you aren’t. So Plan A it is. This means little to no expectations from her. The hard and heavy lifting is on your end. And I know it sucks.
Originally Posted By: loveherafaad
I did all of that. About a month ago I found out about the affair and confronted her. Friends told me of it and the confrontation was by phone. She lied and then had to confess. I cried and forgave her quickly. We met ftf the next day. We both talked and cried. I said she can't be on the fence as she put it if she is seeing him. She stated she would not stop seeing him. That morning I got angry with the situtation and called her at 3am. I told her how much she hurt me with the affair and stabbed me right in the back and straight through the heart. I tod her she will not have him and me. She has to make a choice. Him or me. I called her at 10 am and asked her if she had 4 minutes.

WS "It's done"
BH " Whats dome"
WS "What do you think"
BH "Well I assume by the crying you didnt pick me"
WS "I broke it off with him this morning"
WS "Don't call me. Leave me alone"

After there were family dinners. Time with the children. Watching movies at our "home". I offered to cook her favorite meals. Spoke with her. Reassured my love and wanting the marriage to work. She wanted to start marriage counseling. She came over one night about 2.5 weeks ago for dessert our son and I made. We tucked the kids in to bed. Then we stood in the hallway and a romantic night ensued. I thought we are on track (NOT there but headed in the right direction). WRONG!

My birthday July 3. She buys a laptop and internet and home phone so we can see the kids when sayong good night. Nice right? Earlier in the week she asked what I wanted for my birthday. I said for us and the kids to go to dinner then watch the fireworks together. She agrees. July 3 I remind her of it and she says. Let me think about it and later saying No. She had to stay in and work.

I took my kid an 15 year old nephew to dinner instead but brought 2 pieces of cake over to share on my birthday. Knock on the door. Hesitation. She answer in a sexy tank top no bra. Red faced. We enter she goes into her room put on a bra and shirt. My 2 year old daughter tries to open the door and my wife goes nuts. "NO ONE IN THE ROOM". She was about to leave and get a photo for my sonfrom her car but changed her mind and siad we will get it when you leave. 2 bags were there that I had never seen before. I peeked. Mens shaving gel, hypodemic needles, a toothbrush etc. She could not look me in the eye without appearing shameful and embarrassed. lone in the kitchen I confronted her about the needles. WS "Its a medical condition I'm working on". BH "They dont give you needles for something you're working on". WS shows arms (I know its not heroin most likely he is diabetic). I ask her about the bags "They are from work". I ewxamine a bag "Get off my stuff". We leave and at the car I say "I neeed to talk to you but away from the kids". I ask her Whats going on. WS - Nothing BH- Whats going on? WS - Nothing BH "How long has he been up there?". Blown up mess. Outside her apartment I yelled to him "Thanks alot MF for ruining my marriage. She got angry and then sad. The net day I called her and aske her if her left that night WS- "All I will share with you is that I was a train wreck". Happy birthday right

SO -

I HAVE been trying to fill the LB. Show her and encourage family time. Be the man she loved, buried the man she did'nt and was showing her the new husband and father that rose from the ashes. His side does not care. Her family takes her side even if they dont agree with her decision. I want to save my marraige. She is hard to read (BEST poker face ever).

Any help is appreciated. I still want to sav my marraige. She is in FB blackout and bascially off the grid. She has no more of the friend support that she had before the affair (I told her I would always be there for her and even 4 days ago told her we could still make the marriage work). She finds diff excuses to avoid divorce (I don't want it). She is cake eating and I am running out of cake to provide. I would still offer all the family and me time and give space IF she was NOT seeing him.

I know this was long but trying as I have time to provide more intel.It's hard to see the whole picture. BTW - BAD child hood (domestic, raising her siblings at a young age). Her mother and siblings ALL are have disfunctional relationships. She was the only "shining star".

ADVICE?


Did you read my post about Plan A? I would try PLAN A. Expose the affair wide and far. And stay in Plan A for 6 months to a year. The plan that you describe, giving her the cold shoulder, is the most likely to lead to the demise of your marriage. It just makes the OM look good.

So please re-read the posts to you. EXPOSE the affair wide and far and stick to Plan A.

And her childhood has absolutely nothing to do with it. Leave the past in the past.
Originally Posted By: indiegirl

For a start you promised in that letter to financially support her no matter what she did! Are you going to pay for her affairage (affair that turns into marraige) wedding too?
.


AGree with indiegirl, you should not give her a dime unless it is court ordered. You shouldn't be financing her affair.

I would focus first on exposure. Go read the thread in my signature and there are template letters there. Exposure will be your best weapon.
Originally Posted By: helpthelostdads


The problem is that you’re unable or unwilling to totally go dark. As I’ve said, and as the forum members will tell you, there is no such thing as a “modified Plan B.” You’re either in it or you’re not.



But Plan B has to be a very real part of the future, set in stone. You should be lining it up and preparing for it.

You say you 'don't have any more cake to give' but knowing you have a plan helps.

If you are firm that the James Bond cool customer Plan A act is temporary planning and you will only be doing it for six months, that'll help you stay cool.

Anyone would despair if they thought that was a permanent state of affairs.

The goal is to flood your wife's lovebank so she becomes addicted to the needs you meet.

When you go into Plan B and she can't reach you at all, she becomes desperate to reach you - but at this point she will still be addicted to OM.

That's OK though because affairs are delusions which break up easily in Plan B. When that happens you will have set the stage for recovery.

Plan A and Plan B are intertwined and you can't do one without the other.

You won't need to Plan B if she becomes remorseful or the OM is run off effectively.

However you need to plan for that escape if need be. It'll help keep you cool and Plan Aing like a rockstar.
Another excellent radio clip on the importance of exposure and why. Dr. Harley also explains all the steps that need to be taken to recover from an affair.
Radio clip on steps to take to revover from an Affair
Guys, I don't think we need to beat a dead horse on exposure. It's done. LH's family, her family, and all their friends know.

Exposure is done and WW is paying the price in the loss of friends and alienation of family. OMW flat out doesn't care (I have my suspicions on this matter.)

So the focus now on advice is to help coach him on Plan A. That's what he needs help with.

Exposure is done. It has created a huge problem for WW and hasa alienated her. Lets move on with the advice and focus on Plan A.

BTW, OM's FB is blocked. Can't see friends list to expose to them. Believe me, we've been trying on this end.
He exposed to the kids?
Originally Posted By: helpthelostdads
BTW, OM's FB is blocked. Can't see friends list to expose to them. Belive me, we've been trying on this end.


Have you tried this?
Facebook:A backdoor to see more
The two year old is too young, but the 5 year old knows that mom's actions are the cause of all of this and has told her so.

He's not happy with how things are.
Dday was a month ago?
Roughly a month ago. Please keep in mind he's a cop, so sitting at the computer and postings isn't a huge part of his day, though he'll post an update soon.

I sit at a desk, bored out of my mind most days, so I can take the time to post.

She left back in April. I called him to say hello and got the word she left. I suspected affair, LH didn't believe me at first. LH's other friends got intel that she's been with a couple of swingers for over a year.

This comes from a good source, though we haven't been able to confirm if this is really true or not. It sounded crazy to me until I learned that OMW didn't care when called.

WW is totally confused about what she wants, sending LH mixed signals all the time. The only time she's sought him out is when he's gotten cool with her and taken the James Bond approach. After the A came out in the open, she "cut it off" and was confusing LH again with mixed signals and odd behavior. I suspected it was underground or that contact continued. LH got false hope. There were nights hanging out together and one instance of SF. But the affair is now back on and contact has resumed.

He's seen her crying and deluding herself about family time and being friends after a D. It's been a case of classic cake eating.

I believe Plan B would be extremely effective with her due to her desire to keep one foot in both worlds and because she's responded to him getting cool on her.

But since Plan B isn't possible, then I've told him to continue Plan A, strengthen himself, be approachable, friendly, etc.
helpforlostdads, if you are going to give this guy advice that continually conflicts with standard MB, then why bring him here? What is the point of that?

First off, Plan B *IS* possible but is ill-advised and stupid at this point. There is no reason he couldn't do Plan B.

Rather, what he needs to focus on is exposure. Exposure has not been done in a complete and effective manner. That is his best weapon so to brush that aside is a TRAGEDY.

We need to focus on doing an EFFECTIVE Plan A, which includes a strategic exposure.
Originally Posted By: helpthelostdads


Exposure is done. It has created a huge problem for WW and hasa alienated her. Lets move on with the advice and focus on Plan A.



No, I will not move on from this point. You can't help someone if they have not employed the greatest weapon against an affair. Until that is done completely and thoroughly there is no hope here. And this may be a hopeless situation anyway. But his best chance comes from exposure.
Melody,

What part of “exposure is done and everybody knows” is unclear? He’s exposed it. She is alienated and alone because all their mutual friends abandoned her. Her family knows. His family knows. Exposure is done. OMW knows and doesn’t care.

Short of taking out ads, I don’t know what you’re expecting.

And Plan B isn’t possible because he’s been unwilling to setup the logistics for it. I told him Plan B is full on no contact in any way and that means not even seeing her or letting her see him. So unless he’s willing to do it right, then Plan A is the only option.

I know what exposure is supposed to do. It’s done here. It’s working as it is supposed to since nobody that matters is supporting her affair and her family is divided on how much to support her despite her idiotic decisions.

I’m here on the ground seeing things as they unfold. LH has embraced MB. He’s on board with doing Plan A and eventually Plan B. He’s torn on whether or not to file for protection. I think he should and if she protests he can always say, “What did you expect me to do? I have to protect myself and the kids from your affair.”

He’s trying to be the lighthouse and she appears receptive to at least looking at the lighthouse. She’s receptive when he’s not weepy and whiny.
Originally Posted By: helpthelostdads
Melody,

What part of “exposure is done and everybody knows” is unclear? He’s exposed it. She is alienated and alone because all their mutual friends abandoned her. Her family knows. His family knows. Exposure is done. OMW knows and doesn’t care.


The OM's family does not know and I am doubtful that he has personally exposed to her family. Her family knows WHAT? Do they know only the spin she told them?

How in the world can you consider the affair exposed if the OM's family has not been informed? crazy

Quote:
Short of taking out ads, I don’t know what you’re expecting.


A proper exposure.

Quote:
And Plan B isn’t possible because he’s been unwilling to setup the logistics for it. I told him Plan B is full on no contact in any way and that means not even seeing her or letting her see him. So unless he’s willing to do it right, then Plan A is the only option.


First off, Plan B is very possible. And secondly, Plan B is inappropriate.

In order for him to have a chance, he needs to stay in Plan A.

If you don't want us to help this poster, just say so and we won't help him anymore. But I am certainly not going to sweep the most powerful weapon against an affair under the rug with "they already know."

Trying to help someone who hasn't exposed is like being asked to push a car up the hill with the parking brake on. We shouldn't help him do that.
Quote:
Trying to help someone who hasn't exposed is like being asked to push a car up the hill with the parking brake on. We shouldn't help him do that.


Well said.
Another way to expose "sideways", is to tell a few key people EVERYTHING and then say:

"This is not any sort of secret. Feel free to tell anyone you meet about this adulterous affair. Tell anyone they can call me to verify the truth of what you've said."


Like spreading seeds in the wind.
Originally Posted By: helpthelostdads
And Plan B isn’t possible because he’s been unwilling to setup the logistics for it.


LH, why is this? What state are your parents in? They provide daycare for the children fulltime?

Unless I missed your answer...your parent won't help you with Plan B type pickups?
Update: I have read and appreciate all the advice from everyone. I am going blindly no more. I am in Plan A with the carrot stick and trying to make deposits in the LB to push the OM away.
I have tried everything to expose the affair and crush it but his wife and her family does not care or want to help (was not surprised). My mom is my only ally in
my family and does not understand why I want her back but accepts my wish.

This morning our son called her to see how her day was going (2 minute converstion). He handed the phone to me after (Deep breath, James Bond, LB deposits). I asked her how she was doing and
she said work was ok. I asked no how are you doing. She said "I'm not out partying with friends" (our frinds abandoned her when they found out about the OM. So she only feels she has the OM as no family
is near and friends are gone). I said that I still want to make things work. The path is narrow and it is a hard road but it can be done and the friends that don't follow us were never our
friends (a week ago she would have yelled, said F your friends and hung up). Silence (she is usually quiet 90% of the time)
I told her I am still her for her and asked her what she wants in life. I told her that I want her in my life and can live without her but that would tear me apart
and I don't want to be without her (STILL being James Bond the whole time). I told her we can make this work and it will take time. We need to focus on us first. She was quiet and had to go and hung up. She did not
take the return call to tell her something about our daughter.

I sent her the followng text: "I won't talk to you about this for a while. You know my position. You have alot on your mind. Please don't lose us if that is whatyou truly desire. Talk to me when you're
ready. I'm here for you. Please think about things. See who I have become and how strongly I feel for you. Talk to me when you're ready. Tell me what you want, alone time, family time, us time. I am here for you always.

No reply. Offered for her to go to the park with us tomm. She is picking up our daughter tonight. Deep breath no more texting. Listeing to her and giving her space and time to think.

Any thoughts????

I truly do appreciate the help and now that I have a computer and internet i can read and post here more often.

Reply to read post: In my line of work people complain alot and somethings (stalking, harassment when to OMW does not care can cost me my career). OM is from England originally. Not much on the internet although a friend is working the FB angle in the next week (he is tech savy). I will stay in Plan A. I may see more tonight when she picks our daughter up. I will be James Bond, not a weepy doormat. She is very hard to read even after 16 years BUT she is such a social butterfly the loss of long time good friends and me is tearing her apart I'm sure. ALL advice is appreciated. I feel like I'm walking on burning glass with bare feet around her. Thanks again
Originally Posted By: loveherafaad
Reply to read post: In my line of work people complain alot and somethings (stalking, harassment when to OMW does not care can cost me my career). OM is from England originally. Not much on the internet although a friend is working the FB angle in the next week (he is tech savy). I will stay in Plan A.


I would find a way to reach the OMs family and expose to them all. Are you saying you have personally spoken to his wife and she does not care about the affair?

Exposing to the OM's family can be a powerful exposure because it will ruin your wife's future with that family.
Also, WHAT has her family been told about the affair? By WHOM? And have they applied any pressure on her? Will her father or brothers confront the OM on your behalf?
I spoke directly with WS brother and mother and they are 1) aware 2) not willing to help even though they do not agree with her decision.

I spoke with OMW she does not care. My instructions were to not contact again. They either have an open marriage or both are fine with their own separation/divorce.

My parents are 1 mile from me and 15 min from WS apartment. Child care is free but my dads health is poor (poorer with this while mess) and he is very angry and disappointed with her. My only allies in my family are my 15 yo nephew and my mother. I have to constantly explain to my mother that I am using the help from the forum and understanding more about our situation every day. I liten to her but am always in James Bond mode. I want the marraige to work but am prepared in case it does not.My conversation and texts to her this morning went well I think (Thanks to all for the advice).

The only way I feel that this OM can be out of the situation (I'm sure he is still in to some degree but I won't ask bc James woudn't wink is for 1) her to boot him out 2) Me to put deposits into her LB and to start to fulfill her 10 emotional needs THEN she won't care what is in his LB. Even after 16 years she is a difficult read made worse by this situation.

I have been able to talk a 6'03" 250lb gym rat into 2 sets of handcuffs bc that was the only way to cuff him but also had to fight 5'09" 175. I realize with that everyones situation is unique and what works for one may not work for another. If I could crush this affair and embarass him or whatever it took (legally) to end it I would. If I had the affair my parents would kill me. Her family loves me but does not care to get involved or fight on my behalf. OMW doesnt care at all!

I have the gift of gab and can read people well but am close to this. Before I was James Bond I made bad mistakes and was a blubbering doormat wrapped around her finger. NOW I am strong, confident and alot more in control. I am still learning and hope our marraige works and I still need and appreciate the forums help. I have not texted her or called anymore so I will wait until she picks our daughter up to see what how she acts.
The guy is from England, so unless the FB angle reveals more, we're stuck in terms of exposing to them. He's a man in his 40's in an aparent open marriage. Exposing to his mom and dad, if they're still around, won't do anything. Exposure to their friends may work, unless their friends are a bunch of swingers as well.

I disagree that we need to find every person that the OM has ever had contact with and expose to them. We're dealing with people that swing, so what the hell do they care about others' opinions.

The people that matter have been exposed to. I'm nearly 100% confident that SH would be satisfied with the level of exposure given the facts at hand and the fact that OM's family lives in the UK and that he's in an open marriage, separated, or divorcing.

We deal with BS's who haven't done 50% of the exposure LH has done and we help them.

LH has exposed and is doing his best to find OM's info from FB. Short of searching British legal records, we're not going to dig up much more on his family or friends.

So we can get stuck on the fact that the OM's 3rd grade math teacher from England doesn't know or we can provide LH with useful advice he can work with.
UPDATE:
She came to pick up our daughter. I was James Bond as much as it killed me. She stayed for a while hooking up wireless and ps3 wireless. We had some time in my room with the kids (1 coin in the LB at best). I did not ask her about anything related to our marriage. Since I earlier offered that "we could still make this work", "I am here for you" and "you talk to me when you're ready and lmk what you need, alone time, family time, us time". I will patiently wait and be James Bond when I see or talk to her. She moved one of her paintings out today (that hurt). I'm trying not to read into her actions to much bc what is the use of reading the "alien host". How long until I bring up something related to us and our marriage? Not until she starts bc I said I would wait for her to be ready to talk? 1-2 weeks and breach the subject?

Any advice is appreciated. Since I am on the forum alot more now I can read and ask for feedback. I'm trying to understand my challenge and the journey ahead. It is alot to try to focus on being "James Bond" in front of the WS whom I love so dearly and want to be with.

Should I eventually ask about the OM?

Should I apply for separation papers or would that push her further away and hurt my LB?

Thanks
Originally Posted By: helpthelostdads
He's a man in his 40's in an aparent open marriage.


You don't really believe this do you? Has it been verified with OM wife?
Originally Posted By: helpthelostdads
Exposure to their friends may work, unless their friends are a bunch of swingers as well.

I disagree that we need to find every person that the OM has ever had contact with and expose to them. We're dealing with people that swing, so what the hell do they care about others' opinions.

The people that matter have been exposed to. I'm nearly 100% confident that SH would be satisfied with the level of exposure given the facts at hand and the fact that OM's family lives in the UK and that he's in an open marriage, separated, or divorcing.

We deal with BS's who haven't done 50% of the exposure LH has done and we help them.


I don't. If people won't expose, on all sides, what's the point?

I can't understand why you're trying to predict which expousre targets will be effective and which won't. That's impossible to predict.

The wives from our couple friends, whom I was counting on, turned away from me. His mother, whom he worshiped before going alien, backed me to the hilt - but he didn't give a hoot about her.

It was the support of his wayward dad that got to him. He's always hated his father and I am sure he when he started becoming wayward too he decided he didn't want his father to see he had become like him. After exposure, when his father started making excuses for him I saw the alien face twist and my real husband was grief stricken inside.

Even the OMW, whom you are so sure won't care - how do you know what's happening behind closed doors. Even if nothing he now knows she knows. That's something in itself.

The real point of exposure is not so much to get express disapproval, it is more to turn the light on in the crack house.

They aren't snorting their drug in secret any more. People know. People are watching. That's less exciting and more embarassing. Even if the audience contains people as degenerate as themselves - the shame still penetrates.

Its less about other peoples disgust and activating their own inner sense of disgust by seeing themselves as others must see them.
Originally Posted By: loveherafaad
I'm trying not to read into her actions to much bc what is the use of reading the "alien host".


Exactly.
Originally Posted By: loveherafaad


Should I apply for separation papers or would that push her further away and hurt my LB?

Thanks


No the legal papers are a great idea. If she complains, I would look mildly surprised and remind her that she knows how much you love her and that you have no desire to separate unless you have to.

I would then just add 'unfortunately your affair makes it necessary. When your affair goes away, so do the papers, sweetie' kiss on the head, walk away. If she then yells or rants ask her if she wants vegetable juice or tell her an interesting fact about polar bears or something.

The alien is watching all the time for poor reactions, loss of control, weakness etc.
Originally Posted By: helpthelostdads
The guy is from England, so unless the FB angle reveals more, we're stuck in terms of exposing to them. He's a man in his 40's in an aparent open marriage. Exposing to his mom and dad, if they're still around, won't do anything. Exposure to their friends may work, unless their friends are a bunch of swingers as well.

I disagree that we need to find every person that the OM has ever had contact with and expose to them. We're dealing with people that swing, so what the hell do they care about others' opinions.

The people that matter have been exposed to. I'm nearly 100% confident that SH would be satisfied with the level of exposure given the facts at hand and the fact that OM's family lives in the UK and that he's in an open marriage, separated, or divorcing.

We deal with BS's who haven't done 50% of the exposure LH has done and we help them.

LH has exposed and is doing his best to find OM's info from FB. Short of searching British legal records, we're not going to dig up much more on his family or friends.

So we can get stuck on the fact that the OM's 3rd grade math teacher from England doesn't know or we can provide LH with useful advice he can work with.


Unfortunately you are giving this guy bad advice that is likely going to doom his marriage. A meaningful, comprehensive exposure could possibly make the difference between success and failure and here you are discouraging him? Whoever in the world would you do that to a friend?

Loveheraaf, just so you know, Dr Harley advocates exposing an affair wide and far. ESPECIALLY to the family of the OP. the Harley's most certainly would not advocate a trickle exposure. You never know if exposing to his family could kill the affair.

And have you personally spoken to the OMs wife?
OMW was exposed to and didn't care.

The OM parents are in England. The intel on the swinger part is pretty solid.

We're working on finding more about OM. It is a challenge and it isn't like we're sitting idle on it.

But seriously, what do people expect when AP is from another country? I recognize the value of exposure, but the purpose of exposure isn't to announce the affair to the universe but to inform those that can pressure the affair.

I can assure you that the alienation of their mutual friends is having a huge impact along with the alienation from LH's family. LH's wife is shocked that his parents are suddenly aloof and don't want to talk to her.

WW's family is enabling since that's all they've ever done in their past when divorce comes into the picture.

OMW got the message via email, text, and phone. She told LH to not contact her anymore.

So it isn't that I don't believe that there isn't value in exposing to OM's family, but finding that info is a challenge given his background and blocked FB page and the fact that they all live outside the country.

So we're working with the intel we have and the exposure targets we have. In the meantime, LH needs to Plan A and needs advice on that front.
Use exposure and cast as big a net as you can. You don't know where the support will come from and who will best put pressure on your WW.

Have you spoken to a lawyer about your legal rights? I don't know what it is like in your area, but here, if your parents were watching the children on WW's time, it would actually count towards YOUR time and affect your CS. Look into it.

Have you read all that you can on PA? A part of Plan A is to get prepared for PB, but that is going to be a while for you yet.

Get cracking on finding OM's family. Get cracking on doing a complete exposure. You don't want to have any second guessing in the months to come. Do everything fully.
"But seriously, what do people expect when AP is from another country? I recognize the value of exposure, but the purpose of exposure isn't to announce the affair to the universe but to inform those that can pressure the affair. "

The purpose of exposure is to kill the affair by exposing it to key people in the lives of the afairees. I don't believe you do understand the value or you wouldn't be here discouraging this guy from exposing, which is not in his best interest. I am really amazed that you don't seem to understand the value and purpose of exposure. You are hurting your friend by minimizing it.

And what do people expect when exposure targets are in another country? Ae you kidding me? They have phones in foreign countries, for Gods sake. They have mail and email. What do you think BSs do when an exposure target is another country? We are not talking about MARS, after all.

Why not step aside and allow some more experienced folks to help this man? You have become an obstacle to his success, I am sad to say.
Originally Posted By: helpthelostdads
OMW was exposed to and didn't care.
.


How on earth can you possibly know this? She could easily have been gaslighted. Plus, even if she is a swinger, there's still no way of knowing if she approves of the threat the WW poses. Some women are pressured in to it to keep their Hs happy. Other swingers don't expect the 'fun' to threaten their marriage and security.

Plus if OMW is genuinely a fully signed up wayward, that's great. There is no one more likely to be a venomous, angry jealous nightmare to the OW than someone wayward themsleves.

Originally Posted By: helpthelostdads


But seriously, what do people expect when AP is from another country? I recognize the value of exposure, but the purpose of exposure isn't to announce the affair to the universe but to inform those that can pressure the affair. .


No not entirely. Simply the act of exposure shows caring and it causes shame even when it falls on deaf ears. The wayward feels a unit of shame and a unit of being cared about with each and every exposure.

Plus not everyone knows. Key targets are amiss. Are his parents swingers too? His nana?

Originally Posted By: helpthelostdads

But seriously, what do people expect when AP is from another country? ....finding that info is a challenge given his background and blocked FB page and the fact that they all live outside the country.


Its not Mars. Have you tried 192.com? You may need to pay for the info, but searching his name should show you where he was living when he was 18 and first registered to vote.

That should give you the parents names and their address at that time. You can then search their current address. Some of the result contain phone numbers. You can also try BT's website (british telecom) under their directory enquiries listings.

Or he could hire a PI.

Some of the info is free, some isn't.

The fact he is from another country makes following this up even more imperative.

Why would she care about losing friends when she has this 'new start' escape route undisturbed?

It would be very good for her to learn that she won't be able to lie to this family and they won't accept her.

I also doubt our friend here would welcome his kids being whisked away across an ocean.
Originally Posted By: MelodyLane
We are not talking about MARS, after all.


Oh hey, snap!
Love her, just so you know, Dr Harley, the founder of Marriage Builders calls exposure the "most important step" in killing an affair. So you can imagine my frustration at your friends minimization of the most effective and powerful tool at your disposal. Here are a couple of Harley's quote - please note he does not minimize it:

Originally Posted By: Dr. Bill Harley, clinical psychologist and founder of Marriage Builders

"Exposure is very likely to end the affair, lifting the fog that has overcome the unfaithful spouse, helping him or her become truly repentant and willing to put energy and effort into a full marital recovery. In my experience with thousands of couples who struggle with the fallout of infidelity, exposure has been the single most important first step toward recovery. It not only helps end the affair, but it also provides support to the betrayed spouse, giving him or her stamina to hold out for ultimate recovery."


Originally Posted By: Dr Bill Harley
"The reason for the wide exposure is not to hurt the unfaithful spouse, but rather to end the fantasy. Your husband's secret second life made his affair possible, and the more you can to to make it public, the easier it is for him to see the damage he's doing. Keeping it secret does damage, but few know about it. Making it public helps everyone, including the unfaithful spouse and lover, see the affair for what it really is."
Good grief, I personally exposed a WW in New Zealand! If a Texan can figure it out, I figure he can too.
Just so you know hfld and lhaaf, I'm a reporter in the UK and it's my job to find people. If 192 and BT don't pan out, (works 80 per cent of the time) I may have some other pointers, depending on what intel you have.

But a fake FB page or PI will get you a result, I'm sure.
My friend will work on FB intel. Believe me the affair exposure is a dead issue bc NO one cares on the OM and WS side. The friends on WS side ALL know but she is not friends with them anymore and will not take phone calls or see them or they want nothing more to do with her and vica versa.

I am slowly convincing my family to help me win her back and am working on filling her LB and the 10 emotional needs. I wish affair exposure would have sent him packing and her coming back.

Her guilt, my love, our family (me her and our children) are my most powerful ways to win her back. If she had any friends left to rely on then I would talk to them but she lost everyone bc of the affair. From what I gather this is not the norm. She can be miserable alone (or with him) I am relying on that and her guilt so she sees what she left. I will fill her LB!
" In my experience with thousands of couples who struggle with the fallout of infidelity, exposure has been the single most important first step toward recovery. It not only helps end the affair, but it also provides support to the betrayed spouse, giving him or her stamina to hold out for ultimate recovery." Dr Bill Harley, minimizing exposure...
"My friend will work on FB intel. Believe me the affair exposure is a dead issue bc NO one cares on the OM and WS side. The friends on WS side ALL know but she is not friends with them anymore and will not take phone calls or see them or they want nothing more to do with her and vica versa."

It is never a dead issue until you have exposed to the OMs family. We have had affairs killed from a parent stepping in. While it may not kill the affair, it will hasten its death. I would keep exposure on the FRONT burner until you have done a complete and comprehensive exposure. We can't really move on until that is done properly.
"Her guilt, my love, our family (me her and our children) are my most powerful ways to win her back"

Guilt is not going to get her back. Waywards dont believe they are doing anything wrong. The way you get her back is to kill the affair through exposure and do your best to meet her needs while the affair is crumbling.

However, unless the affair is completely exposed it is unlikely to crumble for a very long time. It can thrive on fantasy fumes for a long time.
Sometimes exposure works instantly, sometimes it takes up to two years along with Plan B, you can't possibly know at this point.

If nothing else it will make LOVEBANK deposits.

If you want to free your wife from this alien you have to reach for the gun marked 'OMs parents'

You may not hit the mark, and it may not matter to the alien, who will just get mad or the Om or his parents...
.. But it WILL matter to the wife inside the alien. Even if she is lost for years or forever.

She is watching to see how hard you try.
FWIW:

1. to this day, I firmly believe that exposing to OMs family is what killed the affair dead

2. many times after exposure and the fog cleared, it was my W who THANKED ME for exposing, and as Indiegirl alluded to, admitted it was clear to her who fought for her, and who did not

3. Listen to and do WHATEVER Melody tells you to do. 'nough said.

Expose and end that affair. God Bless.
Originally Posted By: MelodyLane
Good grief, I personally exposed a WW in New Zealand! If a Texan can figure it out, I figure he can too.

Apologize ahead of time for the t/j

I wish I knew more of this story. flirt

I've seen you and Pep reference it a few times.
Brainhurts, I called kiwijens husband in New Zealand and busted her. She had met up with the OM and refused to tell her husband despite days and days worth of posts trying to persuade her to tell him. So I found her name, looked up her home number and called her husband! Busted! grin

Thanks helpfordad. smile
Melody, I've always understood the value of exposure. We're on it, but it isn't as easy to find info as it would be here.

LH talked to OMW. She doesn't care.

I want to help LH effectively Plan A by saying the right things. For starters, I recommended avoiding saying things like, "I'll always be here for you."

That sends an indirect message that says, "I'll be here for as long as it takes for you to finish getting your jollies with OM."

It's better to say, "I'm willing to work on our marriage once you establish NC."
Originally Posted By: MelodyLane
Brainhurts, I called kiwijens husband in New Zealand and busted her. She had met up with the OM and refused to tell her husband despite days and days worth of posts trying to persuade her to tell him. So I found her name, looked up her home number and called her husband! Busted! grin

Thanks helpfordad. smile

Wow. Thank you Mrs. Texas. I've been wanting to read her story.

Those boots are made for walking. Talk about walking the walk. smile
Originally Posted By: helpthelostdads
For starters, I recommended avoiding saying things like, "I'll always be here for you."


I would agree with that. Better to keep things in the moment.
I know this is going to fall on deaf ears (pretty much as it did last night), but did you talk to your boss and find out just what actions you can take against this POS that won't jeopardize you career?

I simply find it very difficult to believe that just because you're a cop that you have to give up your right to fight for your family and confront this [censored] face to face and make his life a miserable hell on earth for his actions.

Hell, no one's suggesting you taze the SOB in the nads, although personally I would buy you a beer for doing so.
"&Melody, I've always understood the value of exposure. We're on it, but it isn't as easy to find info as it would be here."

And it is impossible if you never try. He can't limit his efforts to include only things that are easy. He wont make it that way. If there ever was a time to do some HARD things, this is it.

I am alarmed that the focus seems to be on less important things like the words he uses. That is a distraction from doing more effective things like finding and exposing to his family.
You're welcome, Mel.

It's a bittersweet feeling: I miss having so much contact with you, my friend, but obviously grateful I'm now in a place where I don't require so much of your time.

I hope you are doing well, and thank you for all you do, for so many (me included, still) smile
Hugs to you, my good friend. You worked hard and your efforts paid off. smile
Question?

How do I tell the difference between being her "cake" and doing things to fill the LB and meet the 10 emotional?

I had to go to her place to get shoes for our son (my need and responsibility). She asked me to bring plain vinegar to clean her dogs ear. I had to go to the store near her and she is watching our daughter overnight so i can take our son to a park early in the morning. I bought her a jar of vinegar and a pack of donuts for breakfast (same that he and I got). Said she may be in a rush so I got breakfast. She said Thank you (2x).

Being cake? Filling the LB?
I know my WS enough to see guilt written on her face when I see her and that she knows her acts are affecting her children (espc the 5 yo). She told me he asked her the other day "Mom why did you ruin everything?". She blamed my parents bc they had been with them all night but he is a smart child and sees what is going on. He has blamed himself before frown She was angry before and telling me to get my "game face" on in front of the kids. I said I don't have one like you. (Now I have James Bond). I have a friend I will contact who is a PI and I will ask him some ?s My boss was on vacation and I work midnight shift so won't see hiim for a week until I rotate back but he is easy to get office time with and get his opinion. In speaking with him since this happened he has expressed worry over WS or even OM doing sonething (false accusations) that could cost me my job. Lies that others tell cost many cops their jobs. She and I are staying out of each others jobs bc they support the children. That "weapon" is reserved for Plan B. I feel my health paying the price and I know hers is. I believe the letter was effective and KNOW my attitude change, not crying all the time and begging her back, not texting and calling alot are already working. It may be she is happy I stopped or she may be worried I am starting to walk away and she may loose me.
Originally Posted By: loveherafaad
Question?

How do I tell the difference between being her "cake" and doing things to fill the LB and meet the 10 emotional?

I had to go to her place to get shoes for our son (my need and responsibility). She asked me to bring plain vinegar to clean her dogs ear. I had to go to the store near her and she is watching our daughter overnight so i can take our son to a park early in the morning. I bought her a jar of vinegar and a pack of donuts for breakfast (same that he and I got). Said she may be in a rush so I got breakfast. She said Thank you (2x).

Being cake? Filling the LB?


That's ok if she eats cake. Making her happy is what will attract her back. What you can't do is allow her to disrespect you. For example, of she leaves you a voicemail and tells you to get to her house and empty her trash, you don't want to do that because it rewards disrespect and it is a sacrifice on your part.
As far as guilt goes, it only lasts until she gets her next fix. Once she gets another OM fix, the guilt will evaporate. The feelings she gets in the affair are her refuge from the mean, cruel world where she can rationalize the affair.

She won't have that refuge if you continually cause havoc in her affair. Measures like exposure ruin the fantasy of the affair and make it harder to sustain. This is why you can't afford to pencil whip exposure. It is critical to your success. Exposure light is like bringing a pea shooter to a gun fight.
Thanks Melody. smile I'm learning and have not given up yet. Still working on my family to prep to forgive and welcome her back. I am fighting many fronts of the war. I feel she wants to come back and our converstion this morning was ALOT better than if we had it even a week and a half ago. Her mom is coming this weekend (my weekend) and her mom said she wants to come by to see the grandkids. DK if WS will come by. I ALWAYS made crepes, bacon and fresh ground coffee for her mom and WS when we still lived together. It will be an interesting weekend. I won't offer to make the breakfast they love but will wait to see if WS mentions anything about the visit or breakfast. I did take the key to the house last week (my birthday). I still love "My Steph" and want to see the Alien gone. Still working at it. Thanks again for all the advice.
Melody (or anyone). Should I or when should I, ask her if she is still seeing OM (I know she lies)? Or should I get my PI friend to work?
Originally Posted By: loveherafaad
Melody (or anyone). Should I or when should I, ask her if she is still seeing OM (I know she lies)? Or should I get my PI friend to work?

I would get him to work.
It's easy to tell. When she treats you bad, she's talked to him and had recent contact. When she treats you better, she's been out of contact for a bit.

My recommendation on MIL: Make the big breakfast you've always made. Be friendly, courteous, approachable, and as much of your old self as you can be (which will be really hard).

The objective would hopefully be to have MIL walk out of your place and say to WW, "You're crazy. You need to seriously think about what you're doing."

I'll second the notion of the PI friend. He may be able to find OM family that may be in the States.
Originally Posted By: helpthelostdads

I'll second the notion of the PI friend. He may be able to find OM family that may be in the States.


He can find the OM's family that lives abroad too. Or if he can't, I can look up their names in the phone book like I did with KiwiJen. For free!
Sorry one more t/j.

Mel that story of KiwiJ was a trip. Thank you for calling her BH. Even after all that she would come here and post like she did nothing wrong.

Entitlement! Nope not her! crazy

No wonder your Bull Shyte sniffer is so good. Thanks again, my friend.
Originally Posted By: loveherafaad
Question?

How do I tell the difference between being her "cake" and doing things to fill the LB and meet the 10 emotional?

I had to go to her place to get shoes for our son (my need and responsibility). She asked me to bring plain vinegar to clean her dogs ear. I had to go to the store near her and she is watching our daughter overnight so i can take our son to a park early in the morning. I bought her a jar of vinegar and a pack of donuts for breakfast (same that he and I got). Said she may be in a rush so I got breakfast. She said Thank you (2x).

Being cake? Filling the LB?



Sounds like you are getting the idea.

You know the expression, have your cake and eat it, too?

With waywards, cake-eating is when they continue their adultery while also allowing their betrayed spouse to meet some of their needs.

As Mel mentioned, this isn't all bad. You want her to eat your cake, brother. In addition to that, you want to be the BETTER cake.

You see, you are already at an advantage to her AP and/or her wayward lifestyle. You have the marital history, you are the father of her children.

What you are doing at this point is demonstrating to her that if she comes back that you will NOT make her life a living hell, and you will in fact build a BETTER marriage than it was before.

BE THE BETTER CAKE.
Thanks hold her and everyone. I will be gone all day with no computer so I will check the board and update tomm. Right now I feel like I'm stumbling when I run but I'm still running.
Absolutely.

The difference between a good Plan A and Plan Doormat is not that you withhold cake, on the contrary shovel it out like bait. You want the inner wife strengthened by memories and you want the needs-greedy alien hooked on it too.

The true difference is the 'stick' of Plan A. Exposing. Not giving a flying hoot about the aliens anger. Fighting hard. Having self respect. Drawing a line.

While dishing out the cake, you need to be insisting that access to other cake, (the Affair) end. Plan A is about proudly being a husband, instead of allowing yourself to be sidelined and pushed out. Telling her that you do not talk divorce, you talk marriage. Running off the OM. When she acts distant or cold or downright hostile, you ignore it as the ramblings of a wayward instead of allowing it to seize control of your desperation. When she gets super offensive calmly say you insist on being treated with respect.

If she tries to bring up the 'wayward's dream' which is a future of cake eating, you squelch that idea. The WWs dream is namely that you provide FS and FC and the OM provides the other, intimate needs. It's what they all want. You would just reply that you don’t talk divorce you talk marriage and that you expect her to end her affair. Don't allow her to build up any hopes of a buddy divorce where you all join together at Christmas and you and OM get along and go on camping trips together (this is what they really believe will happen!)

Usually the OM is told that you will make his life a living hell unless he backs off and that no one will accept the affair. I know you have concerns on confronting him relating to your job, but as TW said, check out your options at work. Exposure should also do the trick here.
Thanks Indie. About 2 weeks ago (before James Bond entered the picture) she said she hoped we could still have family time and meals together occasionally. I told her (even when weak) "You think that I live in a fantasy world where love conquers all and something I say or do will have you come back to me. We that is Hollywood BS and a fantasy YOU live in if you think we will hang out and be BFFs after divorce. When our kids graduate there are 2 sides to the hall, when they get married there are 2 sides of the church and NOTHING says we need to sit at the same table. THAT is your fantasy and will NEVER happen!"

For some reason she got upset. Now that the new me "JB" has entered the picture and with a calm mind and everyones help I see things clearer and can see the narrow path I need to walk NOW I just need to get her to start walking it with me.

Thanks again as always.
Actually, what you told her pre-MB was perfect, and absolutely part of Plan A.

While you are in Plan A, you should actually assume that there is contact. Plan A isn't what you do when entering recovery. I would still snoop to see how she is contacting OM.
I took our son to the park as planned. I sent her a photo text of him only so she knows we got to the park ok and text her that I would have the phone shut off most of the day to conserve batt but would check for messages once in a while in case she text but got no response for a while. She text "Thanks". Sent a pic of he and I a few hours later and then one more of just him a few hours after that. I called her as we both do so the kids could say goodnight (she has our daughter). Kept our conversation to our son having a great time today.

She text after the park closing "Send me a text when you guys get home please" I responded "I was going to anyway for your peace of mind smile we are leaving now" 13 minutes later sent her a text "poor kid is alreadey asleep". Photo text of our son asleep "safe in bed" Her response " Nice. Thanks" My last response "You're welcome"

I'm learning to keep James Bond with text statements and how many. Allowing her to text first (unless necessary) and to keep reponses pleasent and brief. I ask her how her day went at work and don't get much more into anything for now.

QUESTION for the board: I will go by the majority/best advice

Our 9 year anniversary is coming up Aug 2. I thought of getting her something small and/or personal. NOTHING that she could use with him (Gift card for a restaurant, bottle of wine etc). Maybe a nice card with handwritten memories an old or wedding photo. Thinking of a gift card for a massage and nail treatment???

Thoughts? I know the "180" said "No gifts" but wondering if it would feed the LB. If so suggestions for a gift (espc from the female forum members smile .

Considering the letter I gave her 07/08/12 and the converstion the next day (See forum thread 8 or 9)
sorry accidently submitted:

how long should I wait before asking about our situation? Have you given any thought about our relationship? Are you still seeing him or anyone else(Caution: that ? MAY provoke anger and withdraw from LB.) What ?s should I ask and how long to wait. i don't want to push (James Bond wouldnt) but need to feel out the next steps to see if she has thoughts/needs more time (although I will insisit she NOT see him or anyone else bc that puts more nails in the coffin). Advice?
As always thanks.
Originally Posted By: loveherafaad
I took our son to the park as planned. I sent her a photo text of him only so she knows we got to the park ok and text her that I would have the phone shut off most of the day to conserve batt but would check for messages once in a while in case she text but got no response for a while. She text "Thanks". Sent a pic of he and I a few hours later and then one more of just him a few hours after that. I called her as we both do so the kids could say goodnight (she has our daughter). Kept our conversation to our son having a great time today.

She text after the park closing "Send me a text when you guys get home please" I responded "I was going to anyway for your peace of mind smile we are leaving now" 13 minutes later sent her a text "poor kid is alreadey asleep". Photo text of our son asleep "safe in bed" Her response " Nice. Thanks" My last response "You're welcome"

I'm learning to keep James Bond with text statements and how many. Allowing her to text first (unless necessary) and to keep reponses pleasent and brief. I ask her how her day went at work and don't get much more into anything for now.

QUESTION for the board: I will go by the majority/best advice

Our 9 year anniversary is coming up Aug 2. I thought of getting her something small and/or personal. NOTHING that she could use with him (Gift card for a restaurant, bottle of wine etc). Maybe a nice card with handwritten memories an old or wedding photo. Thinking of a gift card for a massage and nail treatment???

Thoughts? I know the "180" said "No gifts" but wondering if it would feed the LB. If so suggestions for a gift (espc from the female forum members smile .

Considering the letter I gave her 07/08/12 and the converstion the next day (See forum thread 8 or 9)



You're in Plan A sir, so yes on the anniversary gift. What kind of gifts does she like? What was successful when you were dating or first married?

How's the PI coming on finding information on the OM?
[quote=indiegirl]Absolutely.

The difference between a good Plan A and Plan Doormat is not that you withhold cake, on the contrary shovel it out like bait. You want the inner wife strengthened by memories and you want the needs-greedy alien hooked on it too.

The true difference is the 'stick' of Plan A. Exposing. Not giving a flying hoot about the aliens anger. Fighting hard. Having self respect. Drawing a line.

While dishing out the cake, you need to be insisting that access to other cake, (the Affair) end. Plan A is about proudly being a husband, instead of allowing yourself to be sidelined and pushed out. Telling her that you do not talk divorce, you talk marriage. Running off the OM. When she acts distant or cold or downright hostile, you ignore it as the ramblings of a wayward instead of allowing it to seize control of your desperation. When she gets super offensive calmly say you insist on being treated with respect.

If she tries to bring up the 'wayward's dream' which is a future of cake eating, you squelch that idea. The WWs dream is namely that you provide FS and FC and the OM provides the other, intimate needs. It's what they all want. You would just reply that you don’t talk divorce you talk marriage and that you expect her to end her affair. Don't allow her to build up any hopes of a buddy divorce where you all join together at Christmas and you and OM get along and go on camping trips together (this is what they really believe will happen!)

Usually the OM is told that you will make his life a living hell unless he backs off and that no one will accept the affair. I know you have concerns on confronting him relating to your job, but as TW said, check out your options at work. Exposure should also do the trick here.
[/quote

The part about camping with the affair partner is absolutely true.
Most waywards also want an "open marriage"
Lol. Silly crazy waywards
My letter I gave her is actually on page 2. Sorry
I wonder if she wonders what the **** happend to weepy spouse and who is the new guy. I worry a little that she thinks "new me" is "yea we get to go camping with OM and the kids" guy. If she thinks THAT she will be in for the rudest awakening and the crush of her Hollywood dream bc that will turn into a reality nightmare.

I will think of a nice gift and search for the right card. I will try to fill the LB as often as possible without smothering her. I also will get the PI on the OM and FB. I need to figure a timeline in asking her about the OM and our marriage.
Hmmmm???
Originally Posted By: loveherafaad
I wonder if she wonders what the **** happend to weepy spouse and who is the new guy. I worry a little that she thinks "new me" is "yea we get to go camping with OM and the kids" guy. If she thinks THAT she will be in for the rudest awakening and the crush of her Hollywood dream bc that will turn into a reality nightmare.

I will think of a nice gift and search for the right card. I will try to fill the LB as often as possible without smothering her. I also will get the PI on the OM and FB. I need to figure a timeline in asking her about the OM and our marriage.
Hmmmm???

You're kidding about the camping, correct?

Is this something she has talked to you about? Are you prepared for a fantastic Plan A comeback?
Here's a good clip of Dr. Harley talking about Plan A and Plan B.

1st Segment talking about Plan A an Plan B

Tell us what you think.
Yes kidding. The camping was from HDW post that the WS has ideas that BH and OM+WS will someday be friends and hang out.

WS did tell me about 2-3 weeks ago that she hopes we can still have family dinners sometime and hang out with the kids. I told her then that:

"You think I live in a fantasy world that "love conquers all" and something I say or do will have you love me again and come back. Well THAT is your fantasy world and Hollywood BS. THAT does not happen and will NEVER happen if you divorce me. You divorce me and when our kids graduate high school there are 2 side to the auditorium. When they get married there are 2 sides to the church and they will NOT put us at the same table together and I will NEVER hang out with OM or ANYONE you are seeing!"

RESULTS: Tears and anger. If she does divorce she should get used to it BUT for now I am James Bond filling the LB and 10 emotional needs!
Yes working on a fantastic Plan A that will blow her mind BUT I think (please advise thoughts) that I need to give her time(how much it's only been since Monday morning) to respond to my Monday converstion with her after the letter delivery in which I told her:

We can make this work. The path is narrow and difficult and friends we have that are there at the end are our friends and the ones who arent there never were. You let me know what you need, alone time, family time, us time. I am here for you.
Yes working on a fantastic Plan A that will blow her mind BUT I think (please advise thoughts) that I need to give her time(how much it's only been since Monday morning) to respond to my Monday converstion with her after the letter delivery in which I told her:

We can make this work. The path is narrow and difficult and friends we have that are there at the end are our friends and the ones who arent there never were. You let me know what you need, alone time, family time, us time. I am here for you.
The 180 Plan is NOT an MB approved plan, so I wouldn't give it any thought.

Also, while in Plan A, you don't do relationship talk. You CAN and WILL tell her things that won't be happening in the future, ie, no camping trips as a family, but then you will move onto something else. And you don't bring up your relationship, you only act off of what she has said. Don't ever use any of the LBs and you'll be fine. Again, while in Plan A, you ASSUME there is contact. Until there is a NCL, you assume that the A is full on. After the NCL, you will verify NC.

Waywards are liars. Do you really believe that if you ask your WW, "Have you spoken to OM", that she will be honest with you about if she has or not? If you do, I have a bridge for sale, wanna buy it?

What are your WW's top ENs? How will you be attempting to meet them today? What specifically are you going to do? And what LBs have you been guilty of committing in the past that you are now working on not committing and how? Anything you do while in Plan A should be things that you would do as a good husband. Things you will be willing to continue to do, in the future, should the affair end, and your WW decide to end contact for life with OM.
Scotland -

My past errors was not giving her as much emotional and physical attention as she deserved (I was off doing my own thing). I was also a financial screw up. I changed and I can tell by what she says that she did not think I would change the financial screw up part so hard and fast like I did. Still owe but SO much more reponsible and open with finances to her. Asking the right ?s talking to her about our financial situation etc. I KNOW she has "Oh S**t" moments where she knows she messed up having the A. She is on the emotional roller coaster and has the best "game face" ever so she is a difficult read espc with the Om in the pic. I know she feels very guilty of the affair. She tries to justify it by saying "I moved out" but I refuse to budge and say "You and I will never see eye to eye on this. Separation is NOT a divorce. Separation is a time to reflect on your marraige and see if you want it to work". She tries to justift diff things to me.

EX: Last week I asked her about the divorce papers (she keeps putting them off and I ALWAYS tell her I DO NOT want them). She said "I am trying to help you. If I divorce you you dont have the health insurance that I pay for and you cant afford it. I went to my HR and asked how much health insurance was ($80). When I say her later I asked her how much my HI was and she aid about $200. So I said I checked on the $ of my HI and its $80. She paused for about 4 seconds and the only reply was "Well its s**tty health insurance!". Anything to avoid the divorce but not breaking things off with OM.

I am having a PI confirm the OM is still in the pic so I have confirmation (I still assume that the A is still on as per the advice here). She is dropping our daughter off this morning so I want to see what she says, her attitude etc. Since I told her that I'm here and To LMK what she needs "alone time, family time, us time" I feel I need to give her space (She says that was the prob immediately after spearation but I know OM was the big problem). I'm in the give her space (listening to her), deposit coins in LB and as far as emotional needs here are things I think she needs/wants at this stage - listening to her attentively, proving I have changed my errors from the past (all financial NO adultry on my part), give her space.

If my PI finds OM is at her place this weekend I will breach the problem and def tell her that as long as he is in the pic it is devastating to our marraige and family and closing the window faster to save our marriage. She is always so poker faced (WORSE on the phone) that I would have to do this FTF.

Scotland - when you say "And what LBs have you been guilty of committing in the past that you are now working on not committing and how?". What do you mean by LBs? (I'm new and the abbreviations are somewhat alien I usse LB for Love bank.

Thanks
Here you go. Acronyms and Abbreviations

LB= Love Busters

Also in Plan A do not talk about D. If she tries to bring it up say " I don't talk D I talk Marriage"

Also here The Most Important Emotional Needs
Re: addressing the issue of OM still in contact -

It's useful for you to know the tactical situation, but wagging your finger in her face saying, "Unless you leave him entirely we have no future" is not a pristine Plan A. There is no reason to tell her she's still seeing him; she knows that. Why give away your intelligence?

Better to bear it in mind as you execute Plan A actions. Continue to ask her to join as a family at casual (NO EXPECTATIONS!) events. Child's birthday coming up? Arrange to take the family to dinner, making a large show of being the gracious host. Compliment her on her dress, hairdo, make-up, shoes - whatever most gets her happy.

You message is consistent (and constant): This family/marital paradise is yours, WW, if you return to our union, free from OM. Left unsaid, but suggested by your other actions is: If you go with him, from my direction all you will find is dessicated ruin, desert, and waste.
I just caught up on your thread and I want to add what I know regarding swingers.

Although the very act of swinging seems to the general populace to be a free for all, it really isn't and there are a lot of 'rules' in regards to what is acceptable.

For most swingers I know, for someone's H to have an A 'on the side' with a woman would NOT be acceptable.

For the record, I do not know this because I have been involved in swinging! I live in a neighborhood FULL of swinging couples, and have been around it for years. About 2 yrs ago I finally told someone 'please do not speak of these activities when in my presence, I do not support it and will NEVER support it and think its disgusting.' Or something like that. Now, nobody talks to us, boo hoo...but before that people used to talk freely in front of me.

Anyway. I remember one of my neighbors whose H went on a trip stating that she told him he better not cheat on her. I was thinking, um, you already let him have sex with random women whats the diff??? But there is a huge diff, between 'sharing' and just going rogue, which is seen as a no no. Could be different for every couple but in the community as a whole its not acceptable.

Also, my swinging neighbors have lives outside of swinging where they do not EVER speak of it. It is very secretive. I highly doubt their families, workplaces, or regular friends know.

My point is, you blow off exposure to the OM's side because he is supposedly a swinger. But even if that is the case, you could still make a major impact by exposing. In fact, since it will open up his entire sex life to the magnifying glass and as I stated a lot of swingers live way underground, it might even be ADDED pressure for him to stop seeing your W.
Originally Posted By: loveherafaad
Since I told her that I'm here and To LMK what she needs "alone time, family time, us time" I feel I need to give her space (She says that was the prob immediately after spearation but I know OM was the big problem). .............

What do you mean by LBs? (I'm new and the abbreviations are somewhat alien I usse LB for Love bank.

Thanks


love busters - which are angry outbursts, selfish demands (neediness and weepiness often come off as a demand) and annoying habits (any habits she has complained about pre-A)

Dont give her space! Your real wife didnt ask for this - the alien did.

Waywards only want space for their affair so you want to disrupt those opportunities as much as possible. Dont push yourself on her, but just nudge that 'space' in your direction as much as possible.

Show up unexpectedely, with a helpful and friendly attitude frequently but leave if she asks. Always offer to do something nice for her or with her, but be amenable if she wants you to go.

Of course you will text her (disrupt her) an hour or so after you leave!


If she needs a day of 'space' or you have the kids, do as you did the other day sending her texts and pics of you and kids. that would really mess with A time.

or send flowers.

Get creative.
Thansk for tha advice. She was cold and distant when dropping our daughter off this morning (fine with the kids soso at best with me). My son called her right after she left wondering what she was doing for lunch. She didnt know yet. He hung up wo our daughter talking. I text WS and asid "K wants to talk to you". WS called K talked for a min then I got on the phone. Said we Calvin asked about lunch and lmk. She said she has been on the phone with a horrible client constantly calling and not listening. I asked what happened and intently listened, offered advice (similar problem at my work) and told her I'm here if she needs me to blow of steam or whatever. She seemed to shift (venting about the client to me probably helped). I offered to bring lunch so we could eat together and she wouldnt have to take time out of her day to get lunch and to lmk what she wanted to do. Closed by telling her to have a good day at work and she told me to have a nice day.

PHEW! This takes SO much effort to be cool when alot of times I get no positive feedback from her. I keep in mind what I want but at this stage have to reinforce that "My Steph" is worth all of this. Her mom comes this weekend so I will see what happens. Will probaby tell her my son and I will cook the usual breakfast (he is a great helper) and offer for her to join us. Its a sure sign if she sayd no them the OM is there. frown

Thanks again to all
Yeah you have to become a great actor to Plan A.

Originally Posted By: loveherafaad
"My Steph" is worth all of this.


That's so very sweet, but Plan A is first and foremost for you and for the children. Your Steph is probably lovely, but when the Affair addiction began to tug and change her into an alien, she could have become honest and asked for help. There was time to do that. She could have told you to help her with that encroaching danger, but she followed it instead because it was fun for her. Remember that.

I miss my husband's strong points and the things I loved about him, but I never forget that he chose his weaker side.

In six months time you may be in Plan B and that time will fly by. When that time arrives you will want to know you did the best you could.

So do your best, for you and your piece of mind.
Found an excellent thread by Pepperband

This is the Plan A question.......Who the Heck Are you?
Thanks Indie and BH. I think I will print the link to read before seeing or talking to her as motivation for my time on the "stage in the theatre".

Indie - Did you EVER get any positive feedback from your H when you were plan A? When did you decide to Plan B? Is it not time dependant so much as "how much can you take before breaking"? I have told WS before (in doormat me) that I need poisitive feedback to give her space. It helps encourage me. I would still like the positive FB but will have to feel her our and be that understanding husband to see if things at work or personal life are frustrating and she needs help, what do you need, do you want to talk be left alone?

Thanks
Have you seen this?
What To Do With An Unfaithful Wife #1

There are 5 letters in the series so read them all.
Originally Posted By: loveherafaad

Indie - Did you EVER get any positive feedback from your H when you were plan A? When did you decide to Plan B? Is it not time dependant so much as "how much can you take before breaking"? I have told WS before (in doormat me) that I need poisitive feedback to give her space. It helps encourage me. I would still like the positive FB but will have to feel her our and be that understanding husband to see if things at work or personal life are frustrating and she needs help, what do you need, do you want to talk be left alone?



Um a woman's Plan A is very different to a man's Plan A because men find it off putting to be pursued.

I did get positive feedback. He liked being admired very much, (and it was difficult for me to find honest things to admire)he lapped up affection and his attempts to pretend he didnt like my sheer nighties were pitiful!

But ultimately he knew I would require hard work from him in recovery and while he was happy to take cake in Plan A, that's where it ended. I entered Plan B happier in the knowledge I had given it my all.

Oh he was also horribly hostile at times to throw me off my game and make me needier. That's a common wayward trick.

Men also plan A for longer than women. Six months for men, three weeks for women (It's the differences in the way genders want to be pursued, also women get sick and have breakdowns if they stick it out, men seem tougher in that way)

All genders are told to 'Plan A without expectations' That means you can't ask her for feedback.

I like to think of Plan A as a company giving away a free trial of its product. You can't ask for payment and it better taste good.

But it's ok to say you will one day expect payment (commitment, your needs met too) if they want the delights from your Plan A to last forever.

Some waywards happily pay up. Others freeload on the freebie time period and then move on.
Have you caught her pretending she doesn't like your attentions yet?

It's a creepy thing they do. They feel guilty for betraying the OP.

You want her to feel guilty. whenever she is looking uncomfortable and guilty, push more temptation on her.

Guilt makes people justify. It is easy to justify 'I like my husband's attention' because there is nothing wrong with it!
Have not caught her pretending she does not like my attention. No eye rolls or huffs etc. Texts are always emotionless so i don't read into them. Personal contact and phone conversations are easier to read. I know she feels guilty. She may not have so much contact with him lately OR likes the change in me. DK. I will still try to get my PI friend working this weekend. I know she will NOT have OM over when she has my son bc he will dime her out. I nicely asked him about his weekend. "Who went to the movies" "Did anyone come see your mom (mentioned friends etc.) He said no. He can't lie about that and she knows. I have them this weekend and her mom is in town so we will see. She said she may want the kids sat so he will def be out of the pic sat. I did offer to take WS, MIL and the kids out to dinner friday but with MIL poor plannig she said don't rely on it bc she has no idea when MIL will be in town OR what MIL is doing.

Called her again to talk about our daughter. Ligitimate ?s. WE talked and joked around (our sense of humor together is well known by everyone and one of our best assets together). I text her about her mom coming fo rthe legendary crepes breakfast that happens everytime her mom is in town and asked her if she would like to join us. She merely replied that don't count onher mom being there for that (refering to our earlier conversation and the truth that her mom is a VERY poor planner). I did not take it as offensive. i text her mom to see if she was coming Sunday for the breakfast I always offer. Now waiting for a reply. When talking with WS I did tell her that seh and I were always great when we planned things together (the truth and positive memories
) so I will wait and see the reults. We could not do lunch together but I will wait awhile and offer again. My rotating shift allows me to bring lunch to her office with the kids. I read the letters and will reread them at work tonight. Thanks everyone.

I def like the "justify husbands attention". I will work on that and make deposits into the love bank!
She picked up our kids after work (I work overnight). She was in a better mood. I helped with the car seat. We joked a little (I know laughter brings great memories for her). I told her she looks nice and she said thank you. I gave our son a piggy back ride to the car and she FUBALLY showed concern for my injured foot. "You should'nt do that. What about your foot?". I still gave him the ride. I'm that kind of father that he comes first (would have done it if WS was with me or not).

She left and text me asking if I can watch her dog while she takes the kids to get her brother early next month (he has surgery coming up and WS is going with his GF and since I work she needs to leave early to get him and has to take the kids as my parents will be gone). I'm sure she will not take OM bc she will have our son. I text her "I can do that for you no prob" WS "Thanks" ME "You're welcome just remind me when it gets close". Nothing further. I will call to say goodnight to the kids and see if she talks what she says.

I am doing every effort to give carrot sticks and deposit coins in the love bank. I will not offer lunch again for at least a week and will see how other things go before offering other family time. I need to "feel her out". Like INDIEGIRL said. No use in asking her about OM. I don't know how long I can hold out but as long as he is in the picture to ANY degree that definately affects the length of time I will try to make our marriage work.

Still in it to win it - Loveherafaad
Another good show of a H Plan A'ing from afar, but keep in mind they don't think she's still involved with OM.

Tell us what you think.
Radio clip of Plan A'ing from afar
Segment #2
Segment #3
LH is now in Plan B. He is using his family as drop off points for pickups and drop-offs and I'm his IM. She's having kittens about it and is having the standard WW reaction to being told that I'm the IM and that LH won't communicate with her or be around her anymore.

I won't post more than that on this thread because it would be in violation of my role as IM and in shielding LH from the WW crazyness.

I'm off to the other areas to post there and would like to have some pointers and guidance from anyone who is an IM or has done it before.

I think I set my boundaries clear. I told her that LH won't communicate with her unless she either stops seeing OM and ends her affair or if they divorce. He'll only talk to her under those conditions.

There was some alienspeak coming from her end in response, but some hard truth doled out on my part, as a former BH, put her in her place with harsh truth and no raising of my voice. Plain hard truth did the trick.
LH already knows this part:

She said she wouldn't take part in this and participate with a 3rd party in regards to the kids.

I told her that the courts would not object to this since they do the same thing with a parenting coordinator which pretty much does what I'm doing. I told her that how she feels about this is irrelevant because this is how LH wishes to deal with communications about the kids from here on out. I let her know that I will not be passing anything to LH that doesn't have to do with logistics unless she wants me to pass on that she's ending her A and agrees to NC.
LH will post later, but he's fried emotionally. He called me and told me he can't Plan A anymore. He feels totally drained and it kills him that this affair is ongoing and she shows no sign of the situation changing.

He wanted to go to Plan D but I convinced him that he had nothing to lose by doing Plan B first. He got his family on board, got me as his IM and is planning on being dark.

I told him not to make me look like a fool by breaking silence. I instructed him that he's not to see her, talk to her, answer her VM, calls, or emails. He's coming over later tonight so that I can forward all his emails to my account and filter them for him. I advised him to write a Plan B letter, but he said he wasn't writing another one.

So I made it clear to WW what the conditions for resuming contact were: End affair, agree to NC.
This was my day. I picked my kids up from her place (outside) and talked to her stating that I can't go on like this with her still seeing him (she did not say she broke it off so I know she is still seeing OM as I suspected).

I spoke with a lawyer regarding a separation agreement and another lawyer regarding the cost of a mediator and divorce. I know him well so he pointed me in the right low cost direction. I wrote the information down.

When she came to pick the kids up I told her I needed 5 minutes of her time to talk. She said we can't solve our problems in 5 minutes. I told her I can say what I need in 5 minutes. Upstairs away from the children I told her that I love her and care for her. Since she moved out i have made significant changes and drastically improved my problems. In the last week I have been nice and kind, showing her the loving faithful husband and the husband I always should have been and will be forever if she comes back. I told her I always was a great father so i did'nt need to change that.

SHe said "What can I say to make it clearer what I want" (still can't say the word divorce). I told her fine and told her that I spoke with a lawyer today and a mediator was $250 each and a no contest divorce related to adultery was about $2,000 and could be settled in as little as 2 months. I gave her the informationand told her if that is what you really want then make the calls. Before she went downstairs I asked her if she thinks she will regret it, tears welled up in her eyes and I could'nt even remember her response.

When she left I helped put the kids in the car, hugged and kissed them and said goodnight then left.

I called helpthelostdads and told him I'm ready for Plan B. We talked about it and he called her (no answer). I told him to text her to check her VM. Within 20-30 minutes she called me (I did'nt answer and she left a VM that I did not check). She knows I get up for work at 6 pm and called again at 6:20 (I did'nt answer) and left another VM. I did;nt check that. Help will check them later without me around. I;m sure she is threatening divorce or worse but she already told me that is what she wants so I am prepared.

Any thoughts/advice??? Thanks as always.
Why has Plan B been implemented so early? I don't really understand the reason for that?
Ummmm, what happened in 24 hours that you decided to enter Plan B? It's not that I don't applaud people for being in PB, I often have to encourage people to do it, I'm just really curious.

There are really HARD days in Plan A. There is also a high point where you start to see changes. Plan A is suggested for so long for BH's because you essentially have to win the WW back. Do you think that you have achieved that?

Also, you haven't even finished exposing yet, right? Have you found OM's family yet?

I just don't understand. For BH's, DrH suggests about 6 MONTHS of Plan A, you have done DAYS, and I don't know how effective you were at meeting ENs, etc. Have you read ALL of the FREE material on the site?

Did you give your WW a PBL? Was it on this thread for editing?

Sorry, but I don't think Plan B was the right choice for you, ATM. I think you were at a low point of Plan A, but we could have helped you through that. Have you read GJM's thread(BrainHurts, where are ya with the link? wink ).
She refuses to break contact with OM. They are playing the game they want to play. Her family does NOT care neither does she. He and his wife do not care AT ALL. I told her I left her alone stopped texting and calling alot and she replied that instead I called her family (suggested by the forum and I asked them both for help but when refused, ask they not tell her knowing they still would). I told her yes because I'm trying to save our marriage.

She always reinforces that she wants a divorce (but still can't use the word) but uses every excuse not to get one. When I saw her this afternoon I told her that she needs to stop seeing him to focus on us. We can make it work and I love her very much. I refuse to allow her to continue to see him and cake me. I have hit my wall that is it. When she had the affair and lied then broke it off I was ok. Then she lied and slept with OM and ON MY BIRTHDAY. I drew a line in the sand. Retracted on advice of the forum and she just ate it up. My wife (and the alien in charge) are unusual in personality. When she makes a decision she has to much pride to retract even if she was depressed and knew she made a mistake. I have NEVER known her to apologize even when wrong.

If she wants me back I have told her calmly and enough times that I am here. She says that "What have I not said clearly what I want".

My wife before and after has always been hardheaded. There are MANY great qualities in her that I miss and love but she knows that she is playing me and seems to be enjoying it. I have had enough. My current job with ALL of the weight of the job, WS situation, children friend and family is weighing on me heavily. My health is failing and I need to focus on my children and job. She is welcome back until the divorce papers hit the table and I sign the last line. This is the ONLY thing my wife will understand (My Steph and WS both).

I do appreciate all advice from the forum but different people can only put up with different amounts of this stress. I know she regrets what she did but she could do this forever because OM and WS don't care. This will stress them both bc he will have to fill all her needs she wants met or she will suffer without them. She has emotionally drained me since the start and if I don't back of entirely the stress of it all will be to much. I will make it with or without her and she knows it. She also knows that I want "My Steph" back and will wait as long as it takes AS LONG as there is no OM in the picture.
Of course your WW was still in contact with OM, that was a GIVEN. That's why you were in Plan A. It IS stressful. It is EXTREMELY stressful.

I don't see any answers to the questions about if you read all of the material. I don't see answers to the question about the PBL.

If your WW knows that you will sit around and wait, forever, what is her motivation to stop being wayward?

Did you win her back? Did you make her a better option than OM? Did you leave her with the best impression you possibly could?
If you genuinely have hit a wall, then you should protect your lovebank.

But reading your above post it seems like she made the decision more than you. She did this/she said/she won't.

That's waywards. That's a typical wayward.

You ignore them and you work YOUR plan.

You will be in Plan B for up to two years. Or forever if she never comes around.

Will you be satisfied with a one-week Plan A when you haven't seen her for months and the D is about to be final?

I think you wanted to D her for a reaction.

But instead you decided to Plan B her for her reaction.

You need to put aside that need for a reaction and work on what's logical.


Like I said, Plan B is appropriate if you just can't take any more at all.

If you are so strung out that you won't feel any differently next week or next month or regret doing a minimum Plan A then it is indeed best to bow out.

You won't be able to avoid lovebusting and you will start to hate her so then recovery is destroyed.

Or was it just a bad day? I'm not sure why you were expecting a good response from a wayward one week in Plan A. That expectation may have set you up for a fall.

She's an addict now and will not respond to you.

Responses are impossible without NC.

Like trying to get sense before the drunk chick is sober.
Guys, he's been at this since April.

He's done. He can't deal with the reality that she's with someone else and it is tearing him up inside. She's been cake eating and all of this has been feeding the fantasy of the amicable D.

He's at his wall and does want to save things, but the pain is too great to deal with in the current state.

I fully support what he's doing and I'm his IM.
HTLD's, I appreciate that you are close to this, and that you are seeing it at ground level. You brought him to the forum, and I assumed it was to get advice from others, as well as yourselves. Also, I think it may become counter-productive for you to pop in and speak for him. We need to gauge his emotional well being, and such through his posts. You can't do the work for him. We can't do this work for him, all we can do, is point him to DrH's words.

I think that Loveher had a rough patch in PA, and needed support to stick to it until he could properly implement PB. Just my opinion.
He's sitting right beside me reading. Basically says he's tired of her banging him.

He can't deal with that anymore and it hurts like hell to be around her and interact with her and get full of feeling led on.

He's done with that.
Please read this as Scotty suggested before going into Plan B.

GJM's Thread
But I'll throttle back on posting on his behalf. I talk to him regularly, so we can share thoughts on the advice given,which I normally back for the most part and I'm always telling him to not just take my word for it but run it by the forum to see what others think.
Originally Posted By: BrainHurts
Please read this as Scotty suggested before going into Plan B.

GJM's Thread

Did you see this?
I read the link and feel empathy for GJM. I have just hit my wall. To know that she is stil seeing him (when I mentioned her not seeing him to work on us she never said she wasn't so it's easy to know she is) and cake eating from me is enough!

She left vm that she will NOT use an IM and that we will use a legitimate moderator (again not mentioning divorce) and to call her when I'm ready to talk. Like the millions of times I asked you to call to talk. She thinks she is giving orders now. Funny she is not in my chain of command.

HLD said what WS told him is typical of WS when BH goes to Plan B."Fine you want XYZ you got it" "I need more stuff out of the house" Talk, talk, talk. I stil DO NOT want a divorce from her but tired of her doing OM, NOT getting papers she insists she wants and letting me fill her fantasy of a buddy, buddy divorce (when yes she won't get the divorce papers). I'm done with the lies and Host actions. If she wants to stay married she needs to ditch him and have a honest talk with me. All I can tell her (can't bc I'm in Plan B) is tick tock tick tock.

As a divorced and remarried friend told me (victim of her BFF being the OW) "You are a nice guy who treats her well and you truly love her but someday you will just be done. I can't tell you when or why you will just have had enough and be done."

STILL love "My Steph" afaad
Do you think you've done everything possible?

You can walk away and have no regrets?

How long have you been in a real Plan A?
Real Plan A for about a month. I could Plan A for a LOOONG time IF she was not seeing anyone. That is the proverbial straw that broke the camels back. She is playing a emotional game with me and I am a man of priciple (hence my STILL being faithful to her and our marriage). Plan B is necessary fo rme to emotionally split form her.

If she divorced me I could hold my head up high and always tell my children that I love "My Steph" and tried everything possible but WS did not want it. I honestly tried counseling (she was not into it), apologies, changes in the behaviors that were a cause of the separation, putting deposits in the love bank, being a thoughtful and loving husband, forgiving her for having an affair with the OM (2X!), listening to her and understanding her needs, willing to work through her horrible lies and rebuild the trust, defending her to friends and family without fail and always telling her I want the marriage to work and truly do love her.

Will I have regrets if she leaves? Who would'nt? Will she? I'm sure she does now and has for a while. I'm sure the guilt is eating her up. She has to much pride to say she was wrong and if she is later sad bc she lost my love then it is her own fault. She knows that if she divorces it is over and I will NOT leave another person (at the point that I start seeing someone) even if she begs me to come back and even if she says it's for the childrens sake. She knows I could not hurt someone (including causing her pain) like that.

This is a living Hell!
Originally Posted By: helpthelostdads
She's been cake eating and all of this has been feeding the fantasy of the amicable D.


This is what's bothering me. In Plan A there is GOING to be cake eating. You are supposed to dole out cake.

It doesn't feed the fantasy of a D if you are also using the stick of Plan A. I know exposure appears to have fizzled but HE DID IT. He's made it clear there will be no buddy divorce so I am not sure where this statement comes from.

If LHAAFS Plan A was firm, why would it give the impression of a fantasy divorce? A good Plan A will never do that.

I am finding it hard to read the situation too, because as Scotty says LHAAF is not always the one posting.

I can't tell if LHAAF has run his lovebank dry (or perhaps just needs to get over the hump with ADs)

Or whether between the two of you you have decided Plan B is a better strategy to prevent cake eating.

If its the latter, cake eating FROM HER HUSBAND is no bad thing!

There is no need to prevent it!
There's also a lot of discussion around the theme of 'her reaction to Plan B is typical' and 'Plan B will work on her' which make no sense.

Plan B has no effect on the WS' lovebank for the BS. All it does is protect the BS' wellbeing.

Plan B is implemented to protect oureslves from someone hellbent on continuing the A no matter how great the Plan A.

Plan B is not an enticement technique. It's cover when under fire.
Loveher, GJM's thread wasn't meant to have you pity him. WhY I suggested it to you was to show how to EARN your way out of your marriage.

Of course you could Plan A for a LONNNNNG time with no A, that's not the point. Plan A is HARD. Plan B is HARDER. Recovery is the HARDEST still.

You haven't answered a lot of the questions that I have posed to you. Why is that?
What's happened to exposure to OMs family in all this?

That can't be ditched just because the wayward is acting like a wayward.

That's what waywards do.

Look, I am a huge cheerleader for Plan B. Its my salvation. I ADORE Plan B. So does our Queen B, Scotland.

But Plan B without Plan A, (a complete nuclear exposure in particular) isn't Plan B. Its doing nothing.

The OM needs running off. Family exposure. Confrontation. A of A suit if possible.

The gameplan here seems to be 'let's get the wayward to see sense and miss BH'.

That's not really a gameplan. Plan B is only protection.

The priority, of course, is LHAAF and if he's truly hit a wall, then it is time for Plan B

But taking a legal stand (filing for D in which OM is called or A of A suit) and exposure, can be done from within Plan B.

But I'm not convinced he's ready for B. A day ago he was fighting to the death, today its different? Plan B requires planning and stealth and every time we log on he's gone in a different direction without pre planning it here first. His emotions are pinging him around like pinball.

Will a Plan B silence be held out if emotions are the driving force? No. Plan B is always broken by a heartbroken spouse missing the wayward if not done right.

The links in my sig explain how to Plan B correctly and prepare for it.

There is also an IM training thread htlds can check out. Don't have the link on my phone.

Neutrality is key for an IM. Don't take sides or have words with the WS. You need to be mute on the issue of her waywardness.

That's hard for a good friend to do. But I think you can.
Sorry I tried to respond earlier but my computer was giving me a fit.

I am emotionally tapped out. When she left I was fighting to keep her, trying to be a great father to our children, havin gto explain to friends, family and my job what was going on. The emotional roller coaster took its toll.

Then the news of the OM hit hard. I trried to make it work, forgiving and talking with her, going to a counselor (she said her lawyer suggested it but my WS was never into counseling).

The emotional toll got ALOT worse. Family was angry with her, I was crushed and depressed our friends (hers no more) were very angry. I defended her and said I still love her and wanted to make it work. I composed a text and sent it to her (1 revision by her) then sent it out and I lost friends. The emotional toll got even worse. Texting her, calling her, being a doormat and tring everything to make it work.

I hit a wall and told her him or me. She said she "Broke it off" with OM the next day. I was better and tried to help our marriage (I admit to much texting and calling but I got NOTHING from WS). Then the birthday shock that she was still seeing him (probably never broke it off). My emotional toll got worse.

I went to super Plan A (had been in a plan A but not so effective). Exposure was no help bc no one on OM or WS side even remotely cares. They are both liars anyway. I tried exposure to MIL and she defended WS using the EXACT same terminology WS uses to defend her actions.

I finally had enough. I am emotional drained. It is taking a severe toll on my health, my relationships with friends and family and I was not being the greatest father I could be. My children are FAR more important than WS. They are truly innocent and will be my children forever. I HAD to Plan B for me and my emotional survival. Besides she is still seeing him so let OM provide all she needs. Her piece of tail may only last so long. The damage is done its not like they havent had sex yet. Her lies are to much and the deception is something I don't need when I need to focus on my children and my career.

If she wants me I am here for now. She still can't say the word divorce and since this mess started she has done ZERO to get the paperwork started.

1) She really does not want a divorce but to play the field until she comes back to "old faithful".
2) She strings me along for the cake I provide.
3) Thought of a friend: Maybe she wants to let you down easy. If I get stabbed in the back and through the heart slowly the damage is still done besides the "alien WS" does not care and "My Steph" went underground long ago.

She comes up with different excuses not to divorce 1) I pay for your health insurance and if we divorce you cant afford it. I found out that my health insurance is 1/3 the cost and easily affordable. When I told her this she paused 3-4 seconds and said "Well its shi**y health insurance (it's very good).

She KNOWS that if she hands me papers and I sign I will NOT return to her and take the chance of more devastation to my heart and soul. Also if I date someone I will not hurt that person and break up just to see WS and try it again.

I have asked her several times recently (as soon as 2 days ago) if she thinks she will regret leaving me. She ALWAYS wells up with tears and says something like "Thats irrelevant". My response is it is relevant because we can make this work. The road is long and narrow and difficult but I will be there for you. She was ALWAYS upset when I told her in the past that if she serves me with divorce papers and my signature hits the last line its ddone forever
Guys, thanks for explaining Plan B to him. I'm a big advocate of it being done right and I've explained that Plan B is for HIM not for her. I explained that it is to shelter him from further abuse and it forces WW to get all her EN's met by OM. I told him it will either force the affair to burn itself out, help him transition to a D, or allow him to preserve his LB in case she does return.

She's resisting Plan B. She won't answer my texts or calls. If LH listened to a VM from her, then he's broken Plan B and we'll have to talk about that.

NO CONTACT! No VM. NO EMAILS. NO TEXTS!

What I'm torn on in terms of advice is this:

Should he file for D on the grounds of adultery and abandonment going for sole physical and legal custody OR hold off on that since he doesn't want a D?

He needs a separation agreement with a set schedule and a guarantee of CS.

They still have joint accounts. I told him to withdraw the money and retain a lawyer with it.

He's afraid to do so.

As far as exposing to OM's family: haven't been able to find any of his family's info from England and his FB is blocked. The affair has been exposed to any and all that matter on LH's side, WW's family, and their friends.
Could you please go back through my more recent posts and answer the questions I have asked? I don't ask them for the fun of it.

It seems that all you have done is write long posts about how you were emotionally drained. Hey, we get that. So were we.

Let me ask you this, and I hope you answer it, what was your purpose for entering Plan B? Are you emotionally prepared to become divorced?

Have you changed your phone numbers, email addresses and figured out how to plug all holes in your Plan B to ensure NC by your WW?
She has said about 2 weeks ago that she wants us to be friendly in all this. To go out and have family time and dinners. I told her you tell me I live in a fantasy world where I think love conquers all and something I say or do will have WS flip a switch and come back to me. I then told her a friendly "lets hang out and go places with each others "current flame" we can all joke and have fun together is her fantasy. I told her that is Hollywood BS and will NOT happen with us. I WON"T hang out with adulters and the OM is DEF out of the ? She got upset and then angry. She still tries to defend herself and her actions but I simply say you and I will never see eye to eye on this. It is an affair. She has told me "then go out with someone". My reply is always "No I'm your faithful husband. That is the man you married and I will NEVER cheat in you". I know she feels guilty. I can do Plan B and figure I need to give her at least a month and if she does not either leave OM and come back to me (or at least be willing to let me go back to plan A and woo her back) OR served me with papers then I will start the process. I have no idea how she feels since Plan B but she called me 2X after Plan B started. She hasnt called me that many times in 2 hours since she left.

She called once to say she was NOT doing this and she would go through a "legitimate mediator" and the second time saying she wanted to get stuff out of the house.

At this point my situation is what it is. I am tired of the emotional toll and devastation to me and friends and family. She has no one left and now OM will have to provide everything. Good luck she can be a handful (I know it sounds like I'm down on her and people prob wonder why I still want her. "My Steph" was never like that and is there somewhere. I miss and love her every minute and truly want "My Steph" in my life but for now I need to protect me adn be the greatest father first and longing husband second.

Thanks.
LHAAF, I think you should seriously look into seeing your doc and getting ADs.

You sound very emotional and all over the place and you are the priority, here.

Right after that, get your money somewhere safe and see a lawyer. Don't trust the alien.

Am I right in thinking a Plan B letter has not been sent yet?

I think LHAAF just needs a break, needs to nail down some safeguards and then we can see about implementing a full on Plan B with changes to contact details etc.
Entering Plan B was to protect what little emotional health I have left. I am as prepared as I can be for divorce ( can the victim ever fully be prepared?). At this point I almost feel if she does it it will be haredr for her. Emails to the account she uses are forwarded to intermediary. She has not texted me since Plan B kicked off. Yes Plan B is for me. I am very tapped out and have my kids tonight and need to place them first. The 5 yo is very affected. I am trying to protect myself to protect them and hope Plan B buffers me so my emotions arent so raw and strong and I can focus on them

I have alot of other stuff going on (working on the house, my job, applying for a new job, the split the kids, family friends. Nothing anyone who is a BS on the board is not familiar with. Different people have different breaking points. My kids went higher up on the priority ladder than WS. If she wants to come back on my terms and I'm still here waiting then great but tick tock tick tock.

I will try to get back later and answer ?s but I have the kids and got off of midnight shift and have had very little sleep. I do appreciate the help. I still miss her but feel a little better (not so emotionally raw and drained).
Originally Posted By: loveherafaad
She has said about 2 weeks ago that she wants us to be friendly in all this. To go out and have family time and dinners. I told her you tell me I live in a fantasy world where I think love conquers all and something I say or do will have WS flip a switch and come back to me. I then told her a friendly "lets hang out and go places with each others "current flame" we can all joke and have fun together is her fantasy. I told her that is Hollywood BS and will NOT happen with us. I WON"T hang out with adulters and the OM is DEF out of the ? She got upset and then angry. She still tries to defend herself and her actions but I simply say you and I will never see eye to eye on this. It is an affair. She has told me "then go out with someone". My reply is always "No I'm your faithful husband. That is the man you married and I will NEVER cheat in you". I know she feels guilty.


That's good Plan Aing.

Originally Posted By: loveherafaad
I can do Plan B and figure I need to give her at least a month and if she does not either leave OM and come back to me (or at least be willing to let me go back to plan A and woo her back) OR served me with papers then I will start the process.


You can't duck in and out of the Plans like that. Once you leave Plan A, you can't go back. Plan B is a permanent commitment to remain out of reach until she agrees to a full recovery.

Plan B heals you because you build a new life in which you assume you won't hear from her ever again.

You only go in when you're done. And you stay in. Anything less won't be taken seriously.
Originally Posted By: loveherafaad
I have no idea how she feels since Plan B but she called me 2X after Plan B started. She hasnt called me that many times in 2 hours since she left.


If you were really in Plan B you'd have a different number, would have no idea how many times shed called and you'd be impossible to reach.

There is no such thing as Plan B lite.
Loveher, do you have any plans to confront this OM at all? If you plan to continue with a full blown Plan B with no exposing and confronting the enemy, then you may as well go ahead and file now, not because it might be where you are headed, but because it is where you are headed.

Personally, I think you're going about this all wrong. You keep saying "Your Steph", but all your actions dictate that she is "His Steph". I know that's harsh, but it's the truth. By all accounts you've taken some pretty good measures, but you HAVE to attack the disease that is destroying your marriage. You've said your job might be at stake for approaching this POSOM. Sorry, I don't buy it one bit. Assuming you don't kill or maim the slug, I can't imagine that you could get into THAT much trouble confronting this parasite with your bosses. What do you think they would do if they were in your shoes? You have a right to fight for your marriage and family. Why are you not exercising that right?

Another thing to think about. Your NOT confronting makes you look extremely weak to your WW. EXTREMELY weak! Not very attractive at all I would imagine (ladies, feel free to chime in here). Is that the last impression you want to leave on Steph?

She's practically begging you to to help her and you let her sink further into the abyss she has managed to create for herself by your inaction's. That's not showing her love; that's showing her indifference.

Plan B if you want, but prepare for Plan D right now because buddy, that is right where you are headed if you continue in this fashion.

I know you are crushed, but you need to think long and hard here, because you are making one very radical decision that will affect you AND your kids for a very long time.
How's the PI coming with findng out about OM?

Did you try this? Facebook: A backdoor to see more information
Tiger I did try to confront when I found her continuing the affair (if she even cut it off in the first place). He would not show his face and WS got angry and told me to leave. ANY call to the police and I'm done. The responding jurisdiction is the PD that I have a current application with (better, benefits, retirement and pay). I have shown and told her numerous times that I am here for her. I asked her if she thinks she will regret it and she says "It's irrelevant". Do I want to loose my wife? NO. She is always quiet and says very little. She is veery self sufficient. She is upset, angry lost all previous friends from our marriage. I offer our marriage and to work on our friends. She knows what I offer and she is quiet on the line. She rarely wants to talk FTF. I see tears but she is the MOT stubborn woman alive made worse by this. She is to proud to admit she made a mistake and come back (I told her I don't care about her admitting she made a mistake just knock on the door anytime and we will make this marriage work.

The FB backdoor did not work. She may have really taken everything dowwn but photos as she said. I can't figure her email pw. She has no friends or famliy she talks to that could tell me "Yes she regrets it talk to her". I have no other connection with her that could help. Her family is of NO use. It seems that usuall on this forum there is SOMEONE friend, famiily, clergy, counselor etc who talks to WS to help. There is literally no one who can or wants to help. If there is (helpfor lost) she won't answer her phone.

WHAT DO I DO? She infers she wants a divorce (she just cant say the word divorce itself) but is not getting the papers as yet. I told her several times I do NOT want a divorce and she only replys with "What do you think this is leading to?"

I'm lost. Yes emotions are high for me (leveled off since this first started but bad). Yes I believe our love can conquer all and she says I live in a fantasy world. I feel she loves me and regrets what happened but how to crack that open and have her say it. She has to good of a game face and has never admitted wrong with anything ever. I care for her and love her but if she won't let me help her work on the marriage or even hint at wanting to work on it (the opposite in fact) then what do I do? Who could talk to her to start the ball rolling?
Well, if there is truly no way to confront this piece of crap, but you still want to do everything possible to save your marriage, then Plan A'ing your butt off is the only thing that will give you a chance. The only thing Plan B will do right now is reinforce and validate (at least in her mind) her poor choices and actually push her even harder towards the OM. Think about it. Who else does she have to turn to right now but him? You said yourself that she has no one, that all her friends have abandoned her. And now you are. Give me one good reason why she shouldn't turn to this slug. No one else will have her! If you're okay with that, well then.......

I really do feel terrible for you, and wish I could offer more. If you truly are at a point where you feel you need to protect yourself first and foremost, then continue with Plan B, but make it deep and dark. However, if you still have some fight in you, and want to do everything possible to get your wife back, then you need to dump Plan B and start presenting yourself as her best option by doing a rock star Plan A. Make yourself the better option, instead of making the POSOM the only option.

Either way, best of luck to you. Everyone will be here for you regardless what you decide.
Originally Posted By: indiegirl

You can't duck in and out of the Plans like that. Once you leave Plan A, you can't go back. Plan B is a permanent commitment to remain out of reach until she agrees to a full recovery.

You only go in when you're done. And you stay in. Anything less won't be taken seriously.



Some here may remember the story of MywifeIlove. His wife moved out and he was emotionally spent. He went into Plan B. He regrouped and then coached with Steve Harley and was directed back into Plan A once he regained his composure and emotional fortitude. As I recall, he essentially pursued his wife behind the OM's back...became her confidant and seduced her back to the marriage. OM hated it and lovebusted WW right back to her husband. Here's the post where he told us about going back into Plan A. Prescription drugs played a part but IMO his ultimate success resulted from disrupting the affair. OM's are weak empty vessels who are rarely capable of standing up against a BH for long. Sometimes...the right situation MAY ALLOW a BH to go back into Plan A and rescue his WW from OM...even before she's completely sure of what she wants (WW's are never sure of anything - except liking valiant knights in white armor).




Originally Posted By: Mywifeilove MARCH 4, 2006
Update:

It's been 3 weeks since last post. I coughed up the $ and called the Harleys. Talked to Steve....Now the rest of the story:

To shorten it up....I was advised to transition back to Plan A....reasons????.....because my energy level is way up....still love my W dearly....my original Plan A ended horribly, with me waffling on fighting for custody or not....wife has been VERY receptive to me reinitiating contact with her....and last but most important...because there is conclusive evidence that she has succumed to Oxycontin use/abuse due to OM and there may be a time here in the near future, where she needs a "safe" place to land...and I was told to create that place, then Plan B, if my energy starts falling to low. The drug addiction may be completely intertwined with the affair...she may not even realize it, or he is the source of this evil drug, and she feels she NEEDS it. I know, for pain purposes, it's a godsend...but Google it....it is almost impossible to stop, without serious intervention...the euphoria is described as "better that heroin". She very well may have been given this by OM, without her having ANY knowledge of its addictiveness.

This is so ironic in that A's are so treated as "addictions". And putting a drug side by side with an affair, actually makes it easier to do a plan A from afar.

I feel GREAT! I don't initiate contact, WW always does, and it is quite frequently. She senses I'm moving on with my life, and she is always asking me questions, about me. I speak NOTHING about our R, AT ALL!!! I have had dinner over to her house 2 times this week, she has had dinner over here 2 times over the last 2 weeks!! The visits have been very nice, and not painful at all for me, for I view her as having a "sickness". She is always telling me how sad she is, and I tell her "it just takes time, you'll move on....you have to for the kids and yourself" She told me OM gets quite annoyed with our interactions and dinners. WW tells him (or at least she told me she told him) that he needs to deal with this situation, because she wants a good relationship with me, for the kids. She told me he is very insecure, but he'll "have to deal with it."

My new Plan A, has been flawless....I GET IT! It is about me, so was Plan B...I'm at a point where I'm fine with or without a relationship right now!!! I'm fine with MYSELF!!!
And WW sees this. This was pointed out by Steve. He could tell over the phone, that I was doing well!!

The next two nights, WW and I will be spending time together with kids (a B-day party at her house, Sun. night for DS3 (soon to be DS4) and his actual B-day on Mon.

Today, I had a B-day party with my family and some friends for DS3, but WW would not come at this point...and I think my mother and sister wouldn't have come if she was there!! Too much resentment, yet. WW told called me this morning and wish me luck with the party, and said: "I just want to tell you how much respect I have for you, and all that you have to do for this party" I responded "Well...I'll tell you <WW> over these last 2 months by myself, I have new respect for you, and all you did for this home" She said: "you're doing so well with the kids...it makes me happy, but sad at the same time" .....what??????????

Anyways, been spending lots of time with my kids, dad, mom, and friends. House is immaculate and can't wait for spring!!

Some of what I feel, is spiritual. I have asked GOD, "Do I love her?" I always feel the answer...."YES". Now go show it. WW asked me, how I can be so nice to her? I told her that my deep love for her allows for forgiveness, and that it feels right....that "if I keep carrying that anger...It'll eat you up inside" (Don Henley)

Why not fight Satin with LOVE?? The anger, the blaming, the resentment, the hatred....all are qualities of him. Why allow those....snuff them out with LOVE...not in an insecure way...not in a "doormat" way....but in a way that battles the enemy within me. He can't win inside me...I fought, and won! The battle turns to others, of whom Satin has invaded. And with "true love" and a new found value in myself....I have the tools to fight...and it is showing...

I may be in Dazed situation down the road...or maybe it will go another way...this is WW's battle in herself...and I am easily showing her that I'm the rock...the lighthouse...and I'm STILL.

She obviously is cake eating, but OM seems he may be starting to LB...not sure, but I'm fine!!! And I'll know, with the help of God, when the hope is gone. But I'm feeling so well...moving on, it's truly a recovery...for myself!! And it may well lead to the best opportunity for a recovery of my M....down the road!! Link to Original Post
Originally Posted By: mywifeIlove 3/5/2006
On going back to Plan A....Steve said I went to Plan B too early...(didn't consult the Harleys before...just assumed when WW moved out, that it would be a good time!) But is very much dependent on "my energy" and her "receptiveness". And with the other factors I mentioned in prior post...he said it's ok to go back to Plan A...slowly...and only when she initiates the contact. It certainly has thrown her for a loop!! And the bonus is that it appears OM doesn't like it now!! I guess he thought that my month or so of a fairly Dark B, was it...I was out of their lives...and now I'm kinda the OM (ewwww) in his eyes.
Tiger and MrW thanks for the advice and link. It is tough I want to help her and be there for her. This B is making me stronger. I can never read her anyway. Between the game face she always has on and now no verbal communication it is tough. Going by MrW link to the story of MyWifeIlove... Should I continue with this for a while to see how she reacts. She started as mad and still tryong to be in control. She did not agree with this and this will go her way. Typical of her. WS has a dominant personality. We got along great bc I only have that personality at work. I'm odd in that conflict at work is fine but I dont have it anywhere else. She now has to cook, clean, do laundry and watch the kids all by herself. Before I always cleaned the house, mowed the lawn, clipped her dogs nails, did the laundry etc. She came home to a clean house with dinner on the table.

I have told her several times with the new and improved me, which I know she did'nt think I could do but did a 180 for the better immediately after she left, our lives would be so much better, our marriage stronger our family life the best. I know this is what she wants but she is at a bad spot. Her family is of mo help to me wanting to save the marraige (NONE of them have great relationships) ar being there for her. I don't feel that if I call them they would not tell her. Her one brother maybe. '

Should I continue with this and see if she tries to connect with me? I let the kids call her last night and the 5yo said "mom why did'nt you call to say goodnight?" WS said "I did'nt think your dad would answer. His phone is broken". I never spoke but I feel it is important that our kids say goodnight to us. Even though I called the other night and she did not answer and never played the voicemail for our kids (5yo told me). I can still do things to show her I am the great father she knows I am and that I can do good. I almost feel that I need to continue this for a while to A) see her reaction B) build my strength to possibly get a well organized plan together and do someting like aht MywifeIlove did.

I can develop a plan based on her reaction and if she tries to contact me or tells things to the 5yo. If this happens it willl be at least 2-3 weeks because she is stubborn. I KNOW I still love her and still want to make this work but I need to not physically see her (even a small amount of distance is helping). I know she is driven a little crazy because I told her when she got mad and said "then go out with someone" I told her "No. This is the man you married, a very faithful husband who will never cheat on you".

Any thoughts? I feel that no situaton here is standard because people and situations are all different. I can plan A for a long time but like I said she eats it up and it reinforces her affair. I feel that she is tinking "This is great I can continnue my affair and still have my great husband/father but have no physical connection to him". Cake eating. It is driving me nuts bc this is NOT my wife (I know the alien). This PlanB may be the only reality she sees and understands "Hey thats fine if this is what you want this is for the rest of your life".

If people think "Give it 2-4 weeks and see what happens and all the while work on a plan like MywifeIlove". Then great. Our 9 year anniversary is Aug 2 so maybe have the plan ready for action them???? Send flowers, a card and an invitation to a nice casual dinner? (nothing formal. Her choice of restaurant. I dress up nice [not my usual t shirts and shorts] and be a perfect gentleman????)

Thoughts. Thanks.
I can only guess what you'd be told were you to call for coaching. My best guess would be that...yes...you should stick to your Plan b for now. You've stated your boundaries and you need to stand by your word for at least a little while here. "Going Back" to plan A is unusual and I'd say you would only do so if your wayward wife...after a few weeks...begins to really pursue you and maybe complaining about OM. I think your straight up Plan A days are over and it's more like if you see an opportunity to bust up the affair then you MAY take it.

Flip flopping plans is NOT advised.


Although one poster...in 2006 went back into Plan and had success doesn't make it YOUR best option. Be mindful that the same intense feelings of withdrawal we hope your wayward wife is going through as you Plan B her ....you also will experience. One of the problems with a quickly implemented Plan B is that you aren't prepared to really go and stay dark. Your mind is going to play tricks on you and soon...I'm guessing...you'll be telling us all exactly why you had to have a meeting with your wayward wife even in Plan B. You are going to miss her and try to make excuses to talk to her and see her. If going back to Plan A is ever going to work...your Plan B NOW needs to be and remain solid or else she'll never fear you really going dark again.

I'm rambling.

4 weeks...at least...MISS the anniversary.

Mr. Wondering
I am very worried about your Plan B because you keep talking about her reaction to it. You want to see what effect it will have on her, but that isn't a part of a true Plan B.

When you called, was that after your Plan B was implemented? Because the fact that she heard your voice is actually a break in PB. She would get a fix of you. My WH hasn't even so much as heard my voice in over 2 years.

Maybe you could look into getting a cheap cell phone for the kids to take with them, and you could use that when you call, although you have no control over your wW answering. In my case, I don't call my children when they are with their father, although, that's only every other Sunday night. I do think it is a better idea to have the children call the parent not with them, and have a set time when it is done.

Plan b isn't just about NC, it is a state of mind. It is protection. It is about healing the BS. It isn't meant as a temporary back and forth.

You should call the coaching center and get a plan that is more geared to your exact situation.
Did you give your WW a PBL?

Do you feel like you were able to show your best side in Plan A?

Will you be able to stay dark?

Are you ready to stay dark for LIFE? Because, even if you follow what MrW suggested, if your WW doesn't show some interest in the next couple of months, Plan B could be your reality. Are you ready for that?
Lh, you have a bit of problem. Pal, you made the mistake of jumping to Plan B way too quickly, and now you've severely complicated your sitch. I really do wish you would've consulted the board before making this kind of move. You've got some really good people that are fully versed in the MB concepts on board with you here, but you really threw a monkey wrench into the plan with your hair trigger.

At this point, I would follow what MrW suggested. Follow your PB for a few weeks and see what happens. See how she responds, and then I guess act accordingly. But please don't make anymore massive decisions like the one you did before checking here first. Not doing so will only hurt you. You really have hurt yourself and your chances for recovery with this move.

I like Scotty's idea of the prepaid cell phone for contact with the kids. That leaves no room for error.

BTW, you're not even close to being ready for a true PB, and you know it. Like Scotty said above, are you really prepared to never see her again..forever? I don't think so. So just what do you want?

I am kind of curious as to why you felt the need to send that PB letter this soon, and it really is quite soon. If you're that worn out over this, then I understand completely. But, then again, if you were that worn out over all this you wouldn't give a damn about her reaction to it, but yet, you do seem to be.

That begs the question: What was your true motive in sending that letter?

What gives?
Guys, LH is confused, hurt, and a bit lost on what to do.

LH, tonight was a step backwards and at this point I really need you to figure out what plan you're in. Plan A is what you were in before, but you say that is too painful. Plan B seemed to be going ok, but not it's been broken and there's been a major encounter with WW.

I'm a bit at a loss. If you want to save your marriage, then you must Plan A with preparation for a true honest to God Plan B where there is no contact at all and an attitude on your part that you won't hear her voice or see her if necessary.

Otherwise, I say you quit waiting to react and take action yourself on the legal front. You need to secure a solid visitation schedule.

Find out if you can confront OM. I liked your idea of exposing at his job. I recommend you talk to your supervisor and let them know you will be exposing at OM's job and that you can expect that they may try to retaliate with false accusations against you. I don't believe they will. WW needs you to be employed. OM can't really do anything.

You need to take the attitude with this man that you are going to fight for your marriage and that HE is the problem. That means confronting him and taking a buddy with you if necessary that can be a witness that you didn't step out of line or do anything stupid.

Digging up the info on OM's family has been a dead end, but that doesn't prevent you from exposing to the man's job.

For the board members: OM and WW work for same company, but in different states. They live 50 miles apart, but the company is a big financial company.

Scaring OM away is a worthy objective. Right now you're in Plan C, which is basically Plan LH. Pick one or the other. You broke NC. You could have easily had me text WW that she was supposed to drop kids off at your parents and that you wouldn't answer the door.

I think she needs to get a reality check in terms of what she's looking for. I am telling you that if she insists on going down the path of D that you need to tell her that not only will you not be friends when it is all said and done but that you won't make a D easy and that you'll go for everything if she pursues this path.

But the bottom line here is that you need to pick a plan and stick to it. If Plan A is too hard, then Plan B properly. That means you use the time right now to set yourself up for Plan B while you Plan A. Get a visitation schedule in place. You have an IM ready. Take the legal actions you need to establish protections for yourself and the kids. Report OM and WW to his HR. Heck, call OM's clients if necessary and have a subpoena served to him to come to a deposition to testify of his affair with your WW.

You keep hoping you say the magic words to wake her up. It isn't going to happen. She isn't going to wake up to words. Actions will wake her up.
Originally Posted By: helpthelostdads
I liked your idea of exposing at his job. I recommend you talk to your supervisor and let them know you will be exposing at OM's job and that you can expect that they may try to retaliate with false accusations against you. I don't believe they will. WW needs you to be employed. OM can't really do anything.

You need to take the attitude with this man that you are going to fight for your marriage and that HE is the problem. That means confronting him and taking a buddy with you if necessary that can be a witness that you didn't step out of line or do anything stupid.

Digging up the info on OM's family has been a dead end, but that doesn't prevent you from exposing to the man's job.

For the board members: OM and WW work for same company, but in different states. They live 50 miles apart, but the company is a big financial company.

This is your solution. Did I just miss it, or was it never disclosed they work together? This is kind of an important piece of info. With the way our financial institutions are crapping their own beds these days, the last thing they want is a problem not of their own making.

Make it a problem.

LH, htld is right. There is NO way he can come after you through your job with this. Telling the truth isn't against the law.
What happened with the webites I recommended for finding OMs family?

Was his name just too common or what? Does he come from a small village big city or what? What do you know about him?

I am sure a PI could dig this stuff up. This is VITAL and should not be skipped over.

Workplace exposure is vital too.

IMO, the example Mr W posted of a man who went back to Plan A screwed up by going into Plan B too soon. If peoples emotions are flagging and they need a break, you can take a break from Plan Aing and get some down time before picking it up again. You don't have to go into Plan B.

The main problem here is LHAAFs focus is on his WWs feeling, words and reactions.

Can we just get your agreement, LHAAF that she is a drunk alien and that NOTHING she says/does/feels or does while wayward is important.

If your wife was rolling around drunk arguing with furniture and she told you she hated everyone, would you try to talk her into being sober while she drank?

Of course not. You'd take away the bottle.

If you KILL the affair, you take away her bottle.

You can't talk to her while the affair is ongoing. You can listen to her or watch her. SO STOP IT.

Your very unMB version of Plan B is just another way of watching her reactions without taking the bottle away.

You need to get back into Plan A, even if that means taking a break from being around her for a while (you can Plan A from afar)

And take away her bottle! Bust up the affair with exposure to workplace and OM family.
Originally Posted By: loveherafaad
I asked her if she thinks she will regret it and she says "It's irrelevant".


I asked the rambling drunk a question and she responded with rambling.

Originally Posted By: loveherafaad
I can never read her anyway. .


I can't tell what the drunk person thinks or feels because drunk people neither think or feel.

Originally Posted By: loveherafaad
Should I continue with this for a while to see how she reacts. .


Should I continue talking to the drunk while she drinks to see if I get a sober reaction?

Originally Posted By: loveherafaad
She started as mad and still tryong to be in control. She did not agree with this and this will go her way..


The drunk got mad when I told her she should not be drunk.

Originally Posted By: loveherafaad


Should I continue with this and see if she tries to connect with me?


Will the drunk voluntarily put the bottle down?

Originally Posted By: loveherafaad

I can develop a plan based on her reaction


My plans are to based on the reactions of a crazy drunk.


MywifeIlove went into Plan B too soon and had to fix it by going back into Plan A. So do you. You are not willing to even do a true Plan B because you haven't stopped phone contact with her.

You can Plan A from afar with phone and text and email if you need a break. Or just take a few days to be still and do nothing.

Stop going off on tangents when the drunk says something drunk.

Originally Posted By: loveherafaad
I feel that she is tinking "This is great I can continnue my affair and still have my great husband/father but have no physical connection to him". Cake eating.


Yes. Accurately diagnosed.

But your solution is to take away husband cake before she's really had a bite and do nothing to stop OM serving endless free cake? How is that going to help?

KILL the AFFAIR.
I keep hearing the message, LHAAF that your emotions are preventing a true Plan A.

What is being done to resolve this?

Did you look into ADs as I suggested?

Have you requested time off work?

Are you sleeping?

Eating?

Asking loved ones for support?

Your feelings are under your control. Not your wifes.
To All Thnaks fo ryour help. I spoke with Ws today. When she left she THOUGHT she MIGHT be able to make it work (HUGE maybe). When the news of the affair broke she lost the respect of my family and ALL of her friends. She has no one and does NOT want to even try to work on the marraige. No friends no family to her it is to hard to save the marriage. She goes back to my financial infidelity and lack of respect attached to that and some other things as reasons not to save the marriage. She is still not getting the divorce papers in order. I talked with a lawyer. He gave me the name and number of a mediator who does divorce all for 2500 and under. We are broke but can afford that. I gave her the informations last week and she still has yet to call. I want her to do the papers. I will ALWAYS be able to tell my children that dad tried and was always faithful and did not want the divorce. EVERYTHING I do from here on out is for my children. I will speak with her and she knows I still want it to work (I know she will not change her mind. You think a mule is stubborn??? Lol).

I had my blood pressure checked and its fine (except when I talk about her) and have a physical and STD screening set up. I'm prepping to go on with my life. It takes 2 to make a marriage work and she knows I want to but if she does not I can't make her. Somewhere out there is a woman who wants a honest and faithful man who is a great father. I will find her or at least have fun trying.

I know I will have good and bad days but hopefully the good days will eventually outnumber the bad and as long as my children are happy and healthy I will be fine. Thanks to all for there input and advice. I will continue to post on the board and hopefully others will learn.
I have had minimal time off work (very small dept so manpower is low). Lost about 14 pounds (lowest weight since 2003. and eat as I can.

WS asked how the dr visit went and inspite of her never telling me what is going on with her health and dr visits I told her.

I feel she has a right to know as we have children in common and if something happens to me or her medically it affects them. She is bitter and angry but still says "I care about you".

I will recover as all of you have. Some fair better some worse. Some take along time other no so long. I will never forget her and the great memories but that is what they will be memories. Time to close the book and maybe start a new one.
LH, why are you giving up so quickly when you can kill this with workplace exposure? You've already expressed that you are willing to work things out with her, yet you are unwilling to do the things necessary to kill the affair and start moving your life forward again with your wife.

You have one monster military grade weapon in your hands to save your marriage, yet you refuse to pull the trigger.

Why?
Thank you, Wes, for asking what I was thinking!
htld, can you smack this guy upside the head for me??!!

LH, you are a cop, and I fully respect that. You have my admiration because you perform a duty that not many are capable of. Isn't the police motto, "To Serve and to Protect"?

Why do you so willingly (every damned day) lay your life on the line for people you don't even know, but are so unwilling to lay your life on the line for someone you do know and adore?

It just doesn't make any sense whatsoever. It does not compute.

Unless, of course, it's fear. Hey, we know that fear. We've all been there. That fear is real and palpable. But you know what, it's unfounded fear. It's not rational and it's certainly not helpful where you are right now. You yourself have admitted that you are pretty much done. Why? I'm not at all sure. Okay, let's assume you have accepted that things are what they are, and the ending result will be the same no matter what. If that's true, the just what the hell do you have to lose by doing a workplace exposure MB style?

Seriously......what do you have to lose????????

I'm trying to help you in my meager little way, but I think it's time you start trying to help yourself. I believe you've fallen into the trap that your sitch is different. It's not, it SOP. Forget the fact that you're a cop, and just pretend for a second that you are a construction worker, or whatever. What would you do then? Seriously, what would you do then?

You are making excuses to not do this and that because of the badge you wear. Well, BULLSHIT!!! Using your badge as an excuse to not perform your marital duty to protect your wife and your marriage is a disgrace to the badge you wear, not to mention it's just a convenient cop out for you. Just another excuse. It's nothing more than that and you know it!

Alright, rant over. I can't make you do everything necessary to save your marriage. Only you can. For someone who claims to love his wife and marriage so dearly you sure don't seem all that willing to actually prove it by doing everything possible to restore what is broken.

What do you really want your end result to be?
Loveher, okay, what is your plan right now exactly?

If you didn't give her a PBL, I would say that you could get right back into Plan A, but understand this, you will assume that the IS contact with OM. Plan A for BH's is about winning the WW back from OM. It's a competition, and the BH is much better than OM, in all ways, it just takes some WW's a lot longer to figure that out.

Loveher, have you ever been unfaithful to your WW? Are you considering dating before you are divorced? What if your WW NEVER files paperwork out for mediation or divorce? Will you be okay with not dating for the next 10, 20, 30 years?

Have you read ALL of the information on this site? Have you read through the newly BS thread in my siggy? It explains Plan A and Plan B a little bit differently than in the book SAA. Have you read SAA?

There is A LOT of work for Plan A, there is even more work for Plan B, and recovery is harder still. Are you willing to put in the work? Understand, this will be EXTREMELY emotionally taxing. You're going to need to read other BH's threads and see what you are dealing with.

It may be easier on you emotionally to PA your WW while you two are separated. Remember, you want to fill ENs(what are her top 3?) and avoid LBs(what LB are you guilty of committing? AOs, DJs, SDs, IB?).

Have you read GJM's thread in it's entirety? Although he is now divorced, he EARNED his way out of his marriage, due to his AMAZING Plan A. And when he thought it was getting to be too much, he leaned on the board, and we kept him on task. Also, look up Mortarman's thread(s). He posted to GJM during that much needed time, and he has an amazing story himself of winning back his WW. Even MrW won back MrsW. There are more, but this will get you started.

So, Loveher, what is it that you want now?
Here you go. These are good ones to start with.


Mortarman update H-hour had begun
Mortarman Update: Custody battle begins
Originally Posted By: loveherafaad

I feel she has a right to know as we have children in common and if something happens to me or her medically it affects them. She is bitter and angry but still says "I care about you".


So the wayward is still at the wheel. I weep for your family. STEP UP. So far all I've seen is you sit down, do nothing and gratefully accept any crumbs the wayward throws your way. I hope you enjoy dancing to the tune of a drunk crazy person for life while your children see this as their model for a relationship.

Originally Posted By: TigerWes

You are making excuses to not do this and that because of the badge you wear. Well, BULLSHIT!!! Using your badge as an excuse to not perform your marital duty to protect your wife and your marriage is a disgrace to the badge you wear, not to mention it's just a convenient cop out for you. Just another excuse. It's nothing more than that and you know it!


Couldn't agree more. Its not his job, its his attitude.

Why are you REFUSING to take the steps needed here to protect your family LAAF?
I've asked her if there is ANYTHING I can do to help our marriage? To start working things out. I've told her the family and friends that stay after we get back together are the ones there for us. She wants to hear NONE of it. She is bound and determined NOT to get back with me EVER! The affair is the affair. IF I could break it she would just find someone other than me. Our son has told her before that he wants mommy and daddy to stay together and he could make it work. She ignored that (got angry at me but he knows what is going on). If her own son can't break the "addiction" (she will always love him). Then what can I do.

She says she is lagging on the divorce because I can't afford everything on my own (it would be VERY tight). She says we save alot of money on car/house insurance and if we divorce we can't use that anymore. That does not sound right. I understand I would have to come off of the health insurance but I don't think we have to tell the car and house insurance companies of the divorce. I have told her not see anyone including me and to sort things out. She says that she has nothing to sort out. All of the financial infidelity and connected lack of respect ended her desire to stay in the marriage. I could be the last guy on earth and she would not choose me (not down on me). With the loss of family and friends and the rumors that are running rampant coming back to the marriage is impossible. She only has her family and co-workers, her job and the children. She knows what my dad thinks of her. I think she had a plan of a quiet affair, see if I changed , come back and never mention (or even she would continue) the affair. When it was found out we were done. I asked her last night "How did we loose it all in 4 months?" She had no answer. She is very angry that I try to work things out and tell her I'm still here for her. It is not the affair so much as my screw ups and the loss of the family and friends. I will weigh my options on the best way to expose the affair. I have to be careful bc the job I'm applying for WILL talk to her and if I screw with her job she can EASILY end my career.

I will talk to HFLD and try to gather a well thought out plan. Thanks.
Originally Posted By: loveherafaad
I've asked her if there is ANYTHING I can do to help our marriage? To start working things out. I've told her the family and friends that stay after we get back together are the ones there for us. She wants to hear NONE of it. She is bound and determined NOT to get back with me EVER! The affair is the affair. IF I could break it she would just find someone other than me. Our son has told her before that he wants mommy and daddy to stay together and he could make it work. She ignored that (got angry at me but he knows what is going on). If her own son can't break the "addiction" (she will always love him). Then what can I do.

She says she is lagging on the divorce because I can't afford everything on my own (it would be VERY tight). She says we save alot of money on car/house insurance and if we divorce we can't use that anymore. That does not sound right. I understand I would have to come off of the health insurance but I don't think we have to tell the car and house insurance companies of the divorce. I have told her not see anyone including me and to sort things out. She says that she has nothing to sort out. All of the financial infidelity and connected lack of respect ended her desire to stay in the marriage. I could be the last guy on earth and she would not choose me (not down on me). With the loss of family and friends and the rumors that are running rampant coming back to the marriage is impossible. She only has her family and co-workers, her job and the children. She knows what my dad thinks of her. I think she had a plan of a quiet affair, see if I changed , come back and never mention (or even she would continue) the affair. When it was found out we were done. I asked her last night "How did we loose it all in 4 months?" She had no answer. She is very angry that I try to work things out and tell her I'm still here for her. It is not the affair so much as my screw ups and the loss of the family and friends. I will weigh my options on the best way to expose the affair. I have to be careful bc the job I'm applying for WILL talk to her and if I screw with her job she can EASILY end my career.

I will talk to HFLD and try to gather a well thought out plan. Thanks.
OK. So your post tells us a whole lot about what a drunk person was rambling on about when you were foolish enough to try to sense to them. But.....

So what?

So what if she says/thinks/wants stuff?

No one cares what the drunk wayward says or thinks or wants.

If she says she loves you - SHE IS LYING

If she says she hates you SHE IS LYING

If she says the marriage has been miserable for years SHE IS LYING

If she says it is raining, look up to check because SHE IS PROBABLY LYING.

So stop trying to have little chats with her ok?
You need to read this thread.

Never Take the Word of a Wayward

Here are some highlights from the thread...

Originally Posted By: indiegirl
Dear me.


It seems like every other post from newbie BSs on this forum seems to contain the phrase 'My WS says....'

This is ok (ish), except when followed by the fatal 'I do believe him/her'

The worst ones then follow up with a desire to 'trust'.

I therefore submit a golden rule.......

NEVER TAKE THE WORD OF A WAYWARD. IF THEY SAY THE SKY IS BLUE -LOOK UP TO CHECK. IT SOUNDS TRUE BUT IT IS PROBABLY RAINING.

Now everyone of us has been there, been gaslighted, been lied to very convincingly by people who we love and know to have honest and upstanding pasts. (oh yes, it's not just yours!)

That goes out of the window when they become addicts however.

A truly repentent wayward will jump through hoops to prove themselves with actions like an NC letter or a polygraph.

Words are just too inadequate and they know that.

Here is my top ten of things waywards lie about

1) It was an EA only
It was a PA, but if I tell you the truth that will have to stop and you will probably leave me.
2)It was a PA, but we only did it once/oral/kissing
I minimimize what I am ashamed of, though there is no logic in doing so.
3)It is your fault for not meeting my ENs
This makes me feel less guilty about my non existent boundaries with the opposite sex
4)Our marriage has been miserable for years
This makes me feel less guilty about my non existent boundaries with the opposite sex
5)I do not love you - I love the OP
I have betrayed my morals and everything I once believed in. I must love the OP - or else I am just stupid for risking so much. Actually I am just greedy and stupid. Dont tell anyone.
6)I want a divorce
But I will not bother filing. This is an idle threat to scare you into submission.
7) She/he is just a friend
That I value more than your discomfort with their presence.
8) I need privacy, that's all
So I can cheat on you
9) I dont need an NC letter because there is no contact
Please dont make me give up my cake
10)You are jealous/controlling/demanding
You are getting really warm and I dont like it.

Can I please invite others to share lies they were told/told themselves that were really convincing and why they should NOT be believed without proof?

Cheers.


Originally Posted By: indiegirl
Originally Posted By: Caracal
Originally Posted By: indiegirl
That goes out of the window when they become addicts however.

Found this on another site, something I have found helpful in understanding WH's behaviour is not about me, it is ALL about him... Helps with seeing the wayward's behaviour for what it is.

Replace addicts with waywards, after all, they are one and the same.
1. Addicts lie
2. Addicts make excuses for their bad behaviour
3. Addicts are NOT in control of themselves
4. Addicts want one thing - more more, and again more
5. Addicts are master manipulators - of spouses, children, even their parents
5. Addicts don't care about long term
6. Addicts don't care about logic
7. Addicts are not reliable
8. Addicts lie
9. Addicts talk ONLY for three things :
a. to pursue their addiction
b. to pursue their addiction
c. to pursue their addiction
10. Addicts lie
11. Addicts create walls to isolate themselves from anyone that may interfere with pusuit of their addiction
a. Emotional walls - I'm done, I'm divorcing you, I don't love you
b. Walls of Lies, stories, excuses
c. Walls of wood and brick - they shut doors, stay away from home, dissappear for hours on end
12. Addicts lie
13 Addicts use people
14. Addicts don't care if they hurt people
15. Addicts are ill
16. Addicts aren't loyal or dependable
17. Did I mention that addicts lie?
18. Addicts recover

I question number 18 though... in my experience addicts do not always recover, or can take a very long time to do so... I would add "can" to this... Addicts CAN recover.


Originally Posted By: loveherafaad
All of the financial infidelity and connected lack of respect ended her desire to stay in the marriage.


Someone with no brain said this. And you believe them. Why?
Everything she is doing is straight out of the wayward handbook!

Everything she is doing is TYPICALLY wayward!
Originally Posted By: loveherafaad
I will weigh my options on the best way to expose the affair. I have to be careful bc the job I'm applying for WILL talk to her and if I screw with her job she can EASILY end my career.

I'm really struggling here to understand how you telling the truth could compromise your position or future employment. I am really struggling to understand how a proven liar and adulteress wields so much power over your career and life. I had no idea telling the truth could be so devastating to one's career ambitions, let alone family ambitions.

She doesn't want divorce anymore than you do, but not for the reasons she's indicated. She just an addled drunk right now thriving on the attentions of 2 men, and until you actually do something radical about it, she will continue to do so.

If I were you I would file for divorce right now on grounds of adultery, and have the POSOM subpoenaed for testimony in a court of law. As indie said she's driving the bus, and it's time for you to man up and take that wheel back. While you're in retrieval mode, I would also make an effort at getting your nads back as well. I think they're in your WW's purse in that side pocket next to the tube of lipstick.

Just do something, please. The longer you wait, the harder it gets.
Originally Posted By: indiegirl
So stop trying to have little chats with her ok?


Yep. These back and forths are extremely damaging to a marriage. So stop having them!
You talk AT a wayward not TO them or WITH them

Example:

LHAAF 'You look very beautiful today WW, I wondered if you wanted to grab some lunch"

WW: 'I am waaaay too unreasonable to agree to that. I don’t love you! Our marriage was never good! Leave me alone and give me space!!!!!'

LHAFF 'Your decision, sweetheart. Let me know if you change your mind. Well then I will take the children while you have a little break. We might do something super fun afterwards. Text me if you want to join us.'

WW: 'I haaaaaaate everrrrrything. Woe is me. I am so unhappy and IT IS ALL YOUR FAULT for not washing the dishes that one time when I asked you to. Wahhhhhmbulance!"

LHAFF. Indeed. I heard something very interesting today. Apparently if you shave a polar bear it is black underneath! Isn't that an unusual fact?

WW: I AM SO FURIOUS AT EVERYONE FOR TELLING ME HOW TO LIVE MY LIFE. I love the OM!!

LHAFF: "It seems your affair has made you quite upset, so I will get going, and let you have a little rest sugarplum."

Then you go and do something great with the kids and text her pictures of all the family fun she is missing while she sits in a puddle of self made misery.

Plan A is EMPOWERING when done right.
I told her today I WILL fight for her and not give up. I told her I am grilling steaks tomm and to come for dinner. I will try a set of shifts in my attitude and start setting up family events more demands than requests.

I am not giving up! This emotional roller coaster sucks and she is always quiet when I talk but at least she does not yell so much. I was told start the divorce papers by a few people as a show of force (concencus???). I don't want to force the issue if i can fight for her.

My mom said she will be pleasent when WS drops the kids off. All friends are out of the picture so there is no help there. I may try to call her brother tommorrow and talk with him but can't fell that i can trust any of her family members. I will continue to reinforce that I will fight for her and will prove the man that I have become and the husband that i am!
Indie- I do text pics of the kids and I to her. She rarely text back but I know she gets them. I may start adding some "wish you were here" to the pictures. Monday I am taking the kids toa small waterpark and asked her to go she thought about it but can't go. I have to set something up for about 2 weeks from now but will try that tomm and have her come. Waterpark adn nice family picnic lunch.
That sounds great and the 'wish you were here' is a good way to meet the affection EN.



Dont worry about her not responding. Dont expect anything. If she ever yells say 'I expect you to be civil' and leave straight away. You will never yell of course.

But we need to focus on running off OM for now.

Originally Posted By: loveherafaad
I was told start the divorce papers by a few people as a show of force (concencus???).


BSs are told by Dr H to always first of all go see a lawyer and a doctor for ADs. I still think ADs are worth looking into for you because shes been gaslighting you for q some time.

I dont think you are ready to file for a D, but tell a lawyer you think your wife cant be trusted and ask if he thinks you need legal protection. He may advise you to file for legal protection. I would also ask him about alienation of affection suits. Some people can sue OM for breaking up the M, depends on your local laws.

But first and foremost you MUST expose to OM's family!!!!

That is job number one. Your WW has an escape route when she is faced with a wall of disapproval everywhere at home. What is to stop her fantasising about moving away to England with OM?

OM is getting off scot free and he must be run off.
Originally Posted By: indiegirl
What happened with the webites I recommended for finding OMs family?

Was his name just too common or what? Does he come from a small village, big city or what? What do you know about him?

I am sure a PI could dig this stuff up. This is VITAL and should not be skipped over.

Workplace exposure is vital too..


This was my earlier post re exposure.

What stalled the search for OMs family?
Indie is spot on, waywards lie you cannot believe anything they say, you cannot reason with them. You can still fight for your marriage even though your WW says "I don't love you Iam not coming back ever" this is wayward fogbabble. You still have a chance.
Yes the last name links up to everything but family etc (Cable). I had the same problem researching a friends grandfather. The name links up with "cable tv" "cable news" etc.
Zero cash for a lawyer. Had some free consults but representation is 6-10K. Any ideas on how to proceed on a shoe string budget?
Originally Posted By: loveherafaad
Yes the last name links up to everything but family etc (Cable). I had the same problem researching a friends grandfather. The name links up with "cable tv" "cable news" etc.


I don't know what this means?

When you put a name into 192.com you get names, addresses and phone numbers of people with the surname you are searching for. Did that happen?

You also might get details of a company if a person with that name is listed as a company director. Did that happen?

When you put a name into BT.com you also get phone numbers for people with that name. When I put my family name and city into BT.com, I got a result of several phone numbers. One of them is a great aunt of mine, so if someone were looking to expose me, they'd have a contact point if they went through that list.

Did BT.Com give you any phone numbers for people with his surname in the right location?
My advice regarding legal papers is this: File for abandonment, adultery, and sole physical and legal custody of the kids.

When she barks about it, tell her that there are two paths before her. On one path she ends her affair, returns to the marital home, begins recovery, and rebuilds the marriage. On the other path is divorce and all its ugliness. It will be nasty, brutal, and fought without mercy.

My frustration is that no plan is being followed. Plan A involves doing the necessary exposure. That means contacting the OM’s HR department and letting them know that one of their financial advisors is having an affair. Exposure to the family is a possibility if it can be done. Do the due diligence to track down the family and use BT.com to help. A PI will get you all the info you need for $100.

This is all done with preparations for Plan B. That means getting the logistics for B ready. You have an IM. You have family willing to work with you. But Plan B requires complete and total darkness. That means blocking phone calls, texts, and not answering the door if she shows up without warning.

If you buy into her fog babble you will lose. If you accept her babble that she’s done and that there is no hope, then you are doomed.

If you understand and accept that her fog babble is no different than the rants of a drunk, then you can move forward.

Accept that words will not turn her. Actions will turn her if she can be turned at all.

You are getting GOLDEN nuggets of knowledge and advice here. All you have to do is choose to follow it and accept that your situation isn’t unique or different or that Steph is somehow a different type of WW. They are all the same, without exception. The only variance is the degree of crazy.

Confront OM. Take a cop buddy with you to be a witness that you didn’t threaten or get out of line, but show up and tell him to leave your wife alone.

Take the attitude that SHE is the one that must do the work to win you back.

At this point you have nothing to lose. She’s out of the house, she says that you guys are done. So any action on your part will either keep the status quo or will knock sense into her. Either way, you make out.

Want some free advice? Call the Harley’s radio show at noon and see if they can provide some advice. They’re the pros. Bring up your challenge with exposing to OM’s family because they are Brits. Bring up your concerns with your job.

Ask about whether or not you should file for legal protection at this time.

As far as legal protection goes, you can google “father’s rights” and get all kinds of information for how to represent yourself pro-se. Guys like Mr. W can help you in terms of navigating the systems and filing the right papers.
His last name is cable. I told her last night I am not giving up. I will take a while and then ask her over for dinner again. When she picked the kids up yesterday I told her I was making pizza and it was too much for the 3 of us but perfect for the 4 of us. She ate and thanked me. I told her I am not giving. I am taking our son out bowling Sunday and asked her to go with us so I can also take our daughter. It drives me nuts about the OM but I have to plan out carefully not jump headfirst into it. I have a good friend who is helping. The common last name and not knowing where he is from in England makes it difficult. So far no reaction from her when I say I am "still going to pursue you". Some sighs a few eye rolls but no yelling.

I figure what will I loose? What is she going to do? Have an affair? Divorce me???? I have nothing to lose and a marrigae to gain (a difficult marriage and family/friend life but our marriage none the less).

I did talk to her 1 brother who really likes me and said he is trying to talk to her but she does not reply much to text. I am trying to get him to come down sat to see her and hang out with her.

I guess I am back in Plan A. My emotions are more leveled out. I get angry but am better at keeping it under control around her. It is uncomfortable but I am getting more comfortable with the idea if she files and divorces me I will be better able to handle it as every day goes by.

I will be in contact with a lawyer regarding the above advice from HFLD and also in contact with a PI, as well as a tech friend when he gets back from vacation. NO MORE poor planning!
Sounds like you need a PI if you don't know where he's from.

Have you tried googling him along with his job title or profession? That may get you a UK job location.

Have you tried calling immigration? OM rarely play by the rules.

Saying 'I will not give up' is OK, but I would plan to show her a fight, rather than talking about one. Keep your time pleasant, compliments, affection etc.

Become a great actor who is so confident he doesn't even need to talk about the A.

If a lawyer tells you to file, shell be outraged but just say 'I do not talk D, I talk marriage. The D will end when your A does' and change the subject.

Let your actions, like exposure, be the stick. Talking stick can sound like empty threats.
Loveher, okay, STOP TELLING HER YOU WILL BE HERE FOR HER.

She has heard it enough already. It also feeds into the wayward mindset that they will be able to go off and have their fun, and their BS will be there after it all, because they love them so much. And the kicker, if you get sick of it all, and decide that you don't want to continue a relationship with her? She'll have PROOF that you never loved her enough. Waywards are crazy.

Okay, now let's get you into a solid Plan A. Have you read EVERYTHING about Plan A? What are her top 3 ENs? How can you meet them today?
I will try to figure her top 3 EM. I can def satisfy the sense of family (she can NEVER challenge that). I have become a great actor. In spite of everything she has done I take a deep breath and James Bond. When I ask her over for a family meal or out as a family (easier to start with that and expand to just us later). I say it as matter of fact. No orders, crying etc. She says no I say ok I'll give it a few days and ask you out again.

Talked with WS BF (former) today and she thinks the same thing that WS wanted to go play then come back. BF said that 2 months after WS moved out (before the OM was found out by me) WS told BF that she was on the fence about coming back (when she left it was no way she is coming back). BF said she also thinks the affair and loss of family/friends threw that plan out of the window. BF also thinks she is finding reasons not to file bc she is afraid of the divorce and prob knows this affair won't last long. How can a cheater trust another cheater?

I will talk to HFLD and try to figure out her top 3 EM's. I am planning better now because my emotions are WAY more level than before and getting steadier every day.
Got the intel on OM vehicle. He was at her appt his vehicle beside hers. I called the PI and met him, showed him EVERYTHING! Gave him the whole thing on a silver platter. He said he would have a guy on it in the morning. I told him he would be out between 7-9 am and not return. I had plans set with WS, myself and our children. PI dropped the ball and was there at 5am and the other PI could not show. So now I am waiting on them to get the PDA for proof.

Told WS that I will have to have a supoena sent to his work place if he does not come into court and swear a affadavit to the affair. She has told me "it's not easy to explain why he can't". I told her to explain and she can't. I have the PI's at work guessing I can make it so IF he wants to see her in 2 weeks he has to come down here. After I have proof then I will have a friend call to get his work address that he would want a subpoena sent to with regards to any court paperwork related to the divorce. (I spoke this whole thing over with my Lt. who said that is the way to go. He has been through a divorce before and had to take police credentials away from people temporarily because of things they did during a divorce). Because of my jib and applying for a job where she lives (jurisdiction) it IS touchy. I don't know if she is even telling him about the subpoena, court etc. In talking with friends this will add pressure for him to see if the A if worth it. I am still trying to crush the A (I still believe she is done but there is fight left in me). I don't want to scare him off so I can get proof of the A from the PI.

This is a difficult thing because I still want the marriage to work and told her so. She refuses to come over for any meals (told me she was angry because I was using the kids to get her over for meals. I told her that I felt it would be more comfortable for her to have meals with the family before asking her out with just ourselves).

I am still working on a separation agreement (she has alot of "corrections" which I don't agree with) She is angry so I will stop calling and texting unless needed to back off. I told her I would not ask her over for dinner (just angered her). I don't know if I can win her back or it is lost even if the A ends. Friends think she regrets what happened but will not admit and with the loss of friends and family she feels it is impossible for her to come back to me. I do reassure her I want her back and love her and we can make the marriage work. I feel she knows and it may be best to let the PI's work and get the proof, then lean on OM for a supoena at his place of work. I have a friends who is waiting to take his money out of his account (WS is his financial advisor) but he wants to do it with WS and her branch manager present.

Advice? I know the plan evolves and changes but there is alot going on and I am still trying to break the A (dk if that would bring her back in my arms or she would find someonelse or keep the A regardless), trying to keep things with my job and application good and trying to "Figure out the drunk" in her (I know don't try). She is hard to deal with and I still want to try even though no one can figure out why.

Thanks
Originally Posted By: loveherafaad
Told WS that I will have to have a supoena sent to his work place if he does not come into court and swear a affadavit to the affair.

First thing, stop telling your opponent the battle plan. And make no mistake about it, your WW is the "enemy" right now. I know it hurts to feel that way, but it may make it easier to do what you have to do to look at her in that fashion while you're fighting this battle.

Quote:
Friends think she regrets what happened but will not admit and with the loss of friends and family she feels it is impossible for her to come back to me. I do reassure her I want her back and love her and we can make the marriage work.

It would serve you well to have your friends tell HER that if she is willing to end the biggest mistake of her life that she will not be abandoned by them. That's a big part of exposure; to enlist the aid of family and friends in putting an end to all this. Your friends are actually enabling her by ignoring her at the moment. They need to crawl up her butt, make this as uncomfortable as possible, yet be supportive at the same time, but lay it out that if she chooses to continues this betrayal, the she's on her own. In other words, seriously tough love.

Quote:
This is a difficult thing because I still want the marriage to work and told her so. She refuses to come over for any meals (told me she was angry because I was using the kids to get her over for meals. I told her that I felt it would be more comfortable for her to have meals with the family before asking her out with just ourselves).

What was her response to this? She's uncomfortable because she knows what she is doing is wrong, but doesn't know how to get out of it. I'm surprised she can find her way to the mailbox right now, let alone her way back to you and your family.

Quote:
I told her I would not ask her over for dinner (just angered her).

The only reason I'm adding this is because it amplifies what I said above. Do you see the contradiction? The point I'm trying to make is that your words are useless right now. You just keep inviting (Plan A) and let the chips fall where they may. I can assure you, if you quit inviting, she'll definitely remember and resent that (Plan C).

Keep doing what you are doing on the digging and ramp up the pressure on OM. I would still like to see you confront this POS, but there's only so many ways I can try to convince you it's in your best interest. Since you have confided in your Lt. about this, ask what you may be able to get away with. I would also love to hear just what was done by others that had credentials taken away. I seriously doubt coming face to face with a POS that is a clear and present danger to his family was one of them.

Ask him. Seriously, ask him, and tell us what he says.
Originally Posted By: loveherafaad
She is hard to deal with and I still want to try even though no one can figure out why.

Thanks



You try because it's the right thing to do. It's hard, no doubt about it, but you do it because TODAY you are married and your vows (your integrity) dictate that you love her in good times and bad...in sickness and in health. She is making the biggest mistake of her life and many/most would include her after-life in that summation. Your duty is to TRY to save her...protect her. If she rejects that...that's on her.

That being said...you aren't a fool either. You have your "get out of this marriage" ticket and you're free to use that. But divorce takes time...so you might as well TRY while you REMAIN married. So you just live up to your covenant until the covenant is removed. Duty is a something that should come easy for you to explain to others and people respect those honoring their duties. Sometimes you'll need to assure others that you do see the writing on the wall and that you aren't delusional....just respecting a process which will lead you towards divorce OR recovery and you'll be OK with either result.


BTW...while you continue to attack OM and the affair...don't expect any kindness towards you. It's all about the affair. Mess with her addiction and she'll punish you in an effort to manipulate you to stop. She'll want to convince you it's over and that you have no shot so stop "trying". If you are nice to her and not making waves...then she'll be nice and cake eat in an effort to reward you for being a good boy and not messing with her primary addiction. Thus...the more mad she is...the better you are doing. Busting up the affair with exposure and whatever techniques you can use is the primary objective right now. I love the friend withdrawing his money idea. It would be great to have two friends do this...one on thursday and then one on Friday making her sweat all weekend whether more will show up on Monday, Tuesday...Wednesday the following week. Also...keep asking her out. Even when she says "no"...she's still reporting back to OM who despite what he says to WW, still views you as threat #1 to his relationship and has to wonder if he's getting the whole story from WW (who he knows is a cheating liar). Remember...most everything you say to her gets reported back to him so use that to your advantage (the OM in our lives thought my family was in the Greek Mafia and that my wife had a huge spending problem that he'd never be able to afford).

Good Luck,

Mr. W

Thanks Tiger and Mr W: Problem with the friends A) they won't talk to her or B) she won't answer or return calls. She told me last week when we were talking that she has no more friends only aquaintances. I'm still stuck on the "asking her out" bc it pushes her away. I know you all say there is no use in trying to reason with her or understand what she says/does. That makes it harder to try to convince her.

I know she knows I have changed my faults in the marriage and I am willing to forgive her and work on our marriage. She says "All you do is talk and I listen. I CAN'T do that anymore. I can't be your sounding board". It angers her when I do this. She is angry and alone. All she has is him (God only knows if she is seeing anyone other than him or having one night stands). She knows my faithfulness to her and dedication to our marriage. She wants me to finish the separation agreement so we can proceed with the divorce. I'm still trying to "derail that train" but it is difficult to do by myself.

Several people (family and friends) have already witdrawn their money but I do not know if they were vocal with the management as to why. Should I have my friend to this asap or wait until the PI gets proof of the affair?
Tip? When she says ' I don't want to do that' or 'I don't want to go there' or 'I never want to do things with you' get your acting/salesman face into top gear.

Adopt a slightly surprised expression, as though you work for the lottery and you've just met your first winner who wants to turn the prize.

Say 'Are you sure you want to do that?' - as though you've never heard her - or anyone - turn down such a great offer. Then shrug as if to silently say 'its your life, sweetheart'

Act as if you're doing her a favour and its no skin off your nose if she turns your generosity down.

Do this rather than promising to pursue her. For one thing, her behaviour does not deserve any promises on your part and you shouldn't reward this brattiness with reassurances.

For another, this approach keeps her guessing.

This approach means she has NO IDEA whether you will ask her out again

She has NO IDEA whether she is in danger of losing her cake.
Cake which has been obligingly talkative about the future up until now is suddenly - silent.

Treat an active wayward like an enemy - a chess opponent.

NEVER tell the enemy what's coming next.
Of course they should be telling the manager why they are withdrawing their money. How else will he know why? The fact that they feel strongly enough about it to take their money to another institution will be all the proof he needs. But offer it up later when you get it from the PI if you have to.

Would any of those friends that are still willing to talk to her be willing to actually go over there? If you have a particularly ornery one I would get him/her to go when POS will be there. Get them to push the issue. Your WW didn't turn her back on all of them because she is in her right mind and doing the right thing. She can't face them because she's completely embarrassed over her behavior but powerless to stop on her own. Your friends need to take it to her doorstep if necessary and shove it down her throat. That's what friends do.
Originally Posted By: indiegirl
Tip? When she says ' I don't want to do that' or 'I don't want to go there' or 'I never want to do things with you' get your acting/salesman face into top gear.

Adopt a slightly surprised expression, as though you work for the lottery and you've just met your first winner who wants to turn the prize.

Say 'Are you sure you want to do that?' - as though you've never heard her - or anyone - turn down such a great offer. Then shrug as if to silently say 'its your life, sweetheart'

Act as if you're doing her a favour and its no skin off your nose if she turns your generosity down.

Do this rather than promising to pursue her. For one thing, her behaviour does not deserve any promises on your part and you shouldn't reward this brattiness with reassurances.

For another, this approach keeps her guessing.

This approach means she has NO IDEA whether you will ask her out again

She has NO IDEA whether she is in danger of losing her cake.
Cake which has been obligingly talkative about the future up until now is suddenly - silent.

Treat an active wayward like an enemy - a chess opponent.

NEVER tell the enemy what's coming next.




Read this over and over again.
HFLD. Read it over and over. I copied it as well as stuff you wrote and Mr. Wonderful and it is at home so I read it everyday. smile

I stopped texting her and calling her alot (only when necessary) about 4 days before that. Since the stop she has not asked me about the divorce or where I am at in writing the separation agreement. Our anniversary was Aug 2nd. I did not call or text (on the advice of others since I asked her before abour taking her out bc I never missed a anniversary and she was VERY mad and repeatedly said no). She call ed me at 10 am to "see how the kids were doing". She has only done that during the day maybe 3-4 times in the last 5 months. She never even drops by to see them on my days. She them called me 3-4 times to talk about mundane work/schedule stuff. She told me next Sat she was going to a concert with her brother and I said "whatever". She got mad and said "What do you mean whatever?" I said "Uh. You do what you want so whatever. You said yuo are going to a concert so whatever". (WHAT was that???). She then said bc she was supposed to take th ekids out of town to her brothers but plans changed if I had plans she could watch them. I told her sure I had things to do.

She picked them up. I have a sign posted on the front door that is all capital letters "B.J.B." (Be James Bond), Try B.T.Y.A.S.M. (Try because today you are still married). Y.D.D.M (You don't deserve me) and Y.L.M.I.D.L.Y (You lost me I did'nt loose you). She looked at it hard 2-3 seconds yesterday and today (never asked but I know she is curious). It keeps me centered when she shows up.

HFLD said dress up and go out (I ALWAYS wear t-shirts nad jeans). I did as advised and even used cologne. Went to her place to drop off our daughters blanket. WS did'nt say anything but I wonder I she was thinking. I did go out to see friends and then down to the bars. She sees the credit cards so i cahrged a few bars downtown. I called to say goodnight to the kids and I said if our daughter was restless call bc I be in town for about 2 hours. I said I think there is something else and said no Just the thing about our son. She said ok so I said it will be ok if she calls and she got angry bc "It sounds like you are fishing for an invite". I said "Uh No". I said I 'll see you tomm and hung up.

Friends have said she sees her "back up plan" going away and it scares her. As Mr. W said "Ill be ok either way". I made a whole chicken and gave her half and fresh picked beans our son picked. She said thanks. I firgure it throws her off and she does'nt know whats coming. I have a friend who said he could set up a meeting (she is his financial advisor for now)and speak with her giving her the "Do you know what you tand to loose" etc. Sticking with the facts she can't deny.

I have NO odea if she thinks she is makeing a huge mistake and wondering how to fix it. I'm trying to show her what she will miss but at the same time not give her the promise of being here regrardless. I read the advice from posters here and appreciate everything. Still trying to "figure out" WS. Really tryin gto figure my next move that may show her the reality of her leaving and that the best thing in her life is right her wanting to rebuild our marriage.

Next moves?? Still waiting on the PI to get the proof but no idea when OM will be here. Thanks for the continued advice. HArd t otell if it is working or not but I may not be able to tell with the "crazy WS"
Tiger good advice but even her best friend of 15 years won't speak to her. It is REAL bad. I tried to call her brother but don't know if I can trust him entirely. HFLD said he would help. She knows he has been through this and may answer a call. She is hit or miss on answering calls. No friends talk to her and some don't even talk to me anymore bc I try to make our marrigae work. There is ALOT of damaged feelings. The friends I met yesterday said if we got back some of the people will never be friends with her others may take YEARS to rebuild but would never be the same. I told them about duty and honor bound in the marriage and they did understand and appreciate.

This is tough (Everything on marriage builders is. LOL). She puts on a hard core game face and I'm trying to figure if she just likes the "we are getting along and not arguing but still wants the divorce" OR "maybe I am making a mistake. I'm embarrassed and to proud to admit wrong but I don't want to loose him so what do I do".

I wish I could read her mind. I asked what she is doing with the kids tomm and she said going to a bbq.I asked if the kids would have friends to play with and it is/was a mutual friend that has kids almost their age. Sometimes she does'nt tell me anything at all so I wonder about what she tells me. A week or so ago EVERYTHING was NONE of your business.

Hard to tell if there was a shift in her mind set and if we may have a chance. How to proceed???
before I read further...

"Mr. Wonderful"????

snort
This is some good Plan Aing. But don't be scared to call and text her regularly. Just not constantly, if that makes sense. I would aim for a once a day, non kid affectionate/flattering needs meeter. If you aren't dropping by in person, then a text 'how are you today beautiful?' The next day maybe a call to ask her how she's doing, does she want to talk about her day?

Meet all nasty responses with a shrug and an OK catchyou later.

Get in the habit of doing meeting at least one need daily, but at different times and in different ways.

Then just skip a day here and there to keep her guessing.

Get her to enjoy the attention but feel unsure as to whether you'll keep it up forever.

I wouldn't say 'whatever' either. Its kinda anti-affectionate. Always be charming and full of compliments.

It really doesn't matter if it makes her mad or she doesn't like it, etc, this is your plan not hers.

Don't try to read her mind. Its as mad as a box of frogs.

Just keep feeding needs and compliments and affection and fun to her like drugs to an addict.

Just keep telling yourself you'll be in Plan B in six months.

Just show her something that ANY REASONABLE person is going to miss when Plan B comes in.
Oh and at some point she is going to object to your bar visits and accuse you of being with girls and say that you are just as bad as she is.

Put on the surprised face and say: "hey why don't you come! Put on that dress you look really sexy in and come with!"

Shell say no, but the image of being out having fun with you will stick.

If she doesn't bring it up, invite her out of the blue one day.
Originally Posted By: MrWondering
before I read further...

"Mr. Wonderful"????

snort



So, I wasn't the only one. HAHAHAHA I LOL'd for REAL.

Loveher, STOP TRYING TO FIGURE HER OUT.

The beauty of MB is that the plans are done with NO REGARD to the WSs reactions, or in-actions. You do what you do because it is in YOUR plans.

I'm glad to hear that you are getting more comfortable with Plan A.

Have you read the Art of War thread? It's linked in Indie's siggy. It will help you, a lot during your Plan A. Have you read the Newly Betrayed link in my siggy? It helps explain Plan A more fully.
Thanks fo the advice. I have been printing alot of the advice to read daily and keep focus. Sorry Mr. Wondering (lol). My midnights shifts at work are bad on me. I did cook for her the other day and she asked me to watch the kids for a few hours tomm so she could prep for monday work. Thinking of cooking a chinese chicken she likes and either just telling her I'll make it for lunch for the kids or asking her to come get them when she is done and lunch will be ready. Which is better????

Still "trying" to figure her out and how best to turn her to back to me as long as I am still willing to make it work. DK if she just likes the "no arguing" or she is missing me and realizing what she will loose and is trying to hold me to her.

?????
Originally Posted By: loveherafaad

Still "trying" to figure her out and how best to turn her to back to me as long as I am still willing to make it work. DK if she just likes the "no arguing" or she is missing me and realizing what she will loose and is trying to hold me to her.

?????


Your plan is not to figure her out. Your plan is to be the best you you can be. For your own self worth and so you have no regrets.
Originally Posted By: indiegirl
Originally Posted By: loveherafaad

Still "trying" to figure her out and how best to turn her to back to me as long as I am still willing to make it work. DK if she just likes the "no arguing" or she is missing me and realizing what she will loose and is trying to hold me to her.

?????


Your plan is not to figure her out. Your plan is to be the best you you can be. For your own self worth and so you have no regrets.

We can't control others, only ourselves.
I have no regrets because I am faithful to her and our marriage, have changed my faults and am still willing to try.

She did come over for lunch today (she did'nt say no or even close to object). In keeping with the advice of her "not knowing what I'll do next" I mentioned, in her presence, to our son about grilling out tommm and did not invite her but want to see if she will say anything or ask "what we are doing" (fishing) and then ask her to join us if she asks.

She is getting her brother from surgery wed/thurs so I was toying with asking her over with her brother and his girlfriend for dinner and to let our kids and her brothers girlfriends son play. I think if she says no the OM may be coming over.

I offered and she did take the leftovers home for dinner. I know she likes what I cook and can see that she no longer rolls her eyes or huffs if I offer a meal or to take some with her. I hope I am making a difference and she realizes what she will loose. I am still trying bc "today I am still married".
I called the PI yesterday evening and told hiim the OM may be there tonight (Monday evening) or Friday. I said Monday night bc she never responded to the offer for dinner. I was right and the PI got the pictures I needed (have not seen them yet). I tried to be calm but my emotions must have shown and she asked me what was wrong. The first time I said nothing just got up. The second time she said "Whats wrong. Yesterday you were joking around and laughing". I said I feel like I am still trying to make the marriage work and dk if she just likes the not arguing or she is thinking about it". She said she is waiting for the separation agreement and still wants the divorce". I said fine. I will work on it.

A friend went to see her (I was upset and sent her 2 texts which were sent as 8). The friend spoke with her for 45 minutes (she does not trust his motives) and she listened. He suggests I stop texting, not do anything about the PI intel and give her space. She said he could talk to me about their meeting bc nothing was said that I did'nt already know.

I soke with her and she is angry about me still trying to make the marraige work. She cried alot when we spoke and I told her that I truly love her more than anyone ever will. I know she knows that she will never find another who will love her and stand by her. I asked her to forgive my role in her leaving and she asked how many chances has she already given me. Not including the affair my role in the demise of our marriage was huge. My role caused her to leave (does NOT mean the affair is fine just a huge reaason for her leaving).

I am trying to figure IF i have a chance at saving my marriage what is the best way to go about it? Few friends who can help NONE of which does she trust. No family on my side for her to talk to (all want the marriage to end but will be ok if we got back together). She insists the divorce is what she wants and gets angry when I say that I still have hope and believe in true love. That before I met her I gave up on love and know I did wrong and took her for granted and am asking for forgiveness and another chance. I told her I know I won't have a problem finding a date but don't want to because i want to save our marriage.

Follow friends advice and give her space? Hold the PI info for another time? Work on the separation agreement and file the papers? I know I wish what most do here that I could 1) change the past or 2) have a crystal ball to see into the future but since that won't happen how best to save the marriage.

Still anger since she is still seeing him. She asked me to ask my nephews to watch the kids next monday. I told her to ask and she said they don't return her calls or text since she left. I intially refused but about 4 hours later called and got them to watch the kids and told her its ok.

This is TOUGH and exhausting!
This is the time that you need to PLan A your butt off. The next time she talks about the separation agreement, you dodge it. You don't speak about divorce, only marriage. And in Plan A, you don't speak about your relationship at all.

In Plan A, a BH needs to WIN his WW back. It's not easy. And she is going to fight you tooth and nail because she will no longer be able to justify her actions by saying that you are horrible. You cause an internal struggle, and that's what you want. You want her questioning her choices, and if OM meets up to you. He doesn't. We all know that, you know that, now she will learn that.

And who is this "friend" that you sent to speak with her? Why is he telling you to do nothing with the evidence that you gathered? And to just give your WW some space? Sounds like someone was gaslighted to me, at minimum.

Have you read up EVERYTHING on Plan A? Do you know what her top ENs are? Are you ensuring that you are NOT committing LBs? Do you even know what I am talking about when I say this?

And for the love of all that is holy, please stop telling her that you love her, and no one else will love her more. She doesn't feel that you love her at all right now, and when you say this, you are ANNOYING her. STOP IT. Instead of telling her, show her by fighting for your marriage, but fight SMART.

So, you have more proof, why did you want to gather it? Are you using it to re-expose(you did expose to OM's family, friends, WW's family, friends, and your own family and friends right?)? Are you using it to better yourself in a divorce situation? Did you need it to solidify your stance?

How are you going to Plan A your wife for the next day, 2 days, week?
My friend is someone who knows us both but she said she does not trust his motives but spoke with him for about 45 minutes (he and I were both surprised she even spoke with him about our situation). He wants me to hold the PI intel and give her space (he does'nt know MB but basically wants me to plan A). He said give her space, she knows you love her, the ball is in her court and she knows it.

For a week I did'nt text or call much (makes her calmer and better to be around). She is liking the "not arguing and getting along". Came for dinner, appreciated me makeing her dinner to bring to her place for the kids etc. The problem is she states she still wants the divorce and was super cake eating but not necessarily "remembering what she can loose by divorcing". I told her today that she has not mentioned the separation agreement and she said she was waiting for me to finish it and get it to her (to proceed with the divorce).

I talked with my friend and said her situation would not be so difficult and I believe she could make a clearer decision if the divorce is what she really wants if 1) she was not seeing anyone at all 2)the problems with the friends and family I KNOW influence her decision to divorce 3)she accepted a date invitation with me (have not done that yet but did not seem like the right time yet and with OM in the picture makes it almost impossible.

I feel in her heart she knows that he (or anyone for that matter) will never meet up to me but with the loss of friends and family her choice is narrow. I told her today that the road to rebuilding our marraige is very difficult but not impossible. She keeps saying I STILL don't listen to her (part of the demise of the marriage) BUT I told her I am listening to her and understand she wants to divorce BUT I can't accept that. I hear you but can't give up on our marraige and love. She cried and said she had to go.

All our friends and family know of the affair THAT is the problem WS and OM family don't care or as her mother says "She is my daughter I may not agree with what she does but she is my daughter" (NO help even when I asked) and our friends (she says YOUR friends) are furious and won't speak to her and my family is furious and wants me to leave the marriage. My mom was of the attitude that if she comes back and you love her we will accept her but as of late she is more on the side of leave her. It seems I (and our 5 yo son) are the only ones wanting to save my marriage. I still feel she knows she is making a mistake but it is just to hard of a road for her to travel and the easier path is the path she is choosing NOT the path she knnows to be right. She is still upset and angry. She says it is because I say the same thing over an dover (apologize for my mistakes, want to save the marriage etc).

I don't knnow her top emotional needs bc she and I don't spend much time together and she won't let me in on filling any needs. I want her to Plan A and cake eat but she is eating but I don't think it is having the effect it needs to. I know it won't happen overnight but I know the only pressure she will let this slide until the year separation is here and she can divorce without proof. She thinks the OM needs to come to court and testify (all I need is proof of the affair [PI intel]) and that is causing her strife. I am trying to save my marriage but if it winds up in divorce it won't be easy. HFLD says sometimes the pressure and realization that "Oh crap I can loose him" may make her wonder if she is making the right decision.

I did, after the anger subsided, Plan A and ask my nephews to watch the kids next Monday for her because she had to work past my start of work. I'm sure she appreciated me asking bc they won't speak to her.

Any way to get my family on board and try to get them to help Plan A? They are REALLY angry and want nothing to do with her and don't understand why I still try.

Thanks Scotland and all
What were her top ENs BEFORE the affair? How can you meet those? Hint, read the EN list, and see which ones are usually for men, and which for women. You may get some hints there.

Have you read a lot of other BHs threads on here? You can get ideas on how to meet ENs. You will need to do them in a subtle way at first.

NO MORE RELATIONSHIP TALK IN PLAN A.

Have you read the carrot and stick of Plan A? Have you read the Newly betrayed thread which has some amazing things written about Plan A, and Plan B?

See, when your WW states that you aren't listening to her, and you respond by saying that you understand BUT can't accept it, she thinks to herself, "There he goes again. It's all about what HE wants. He's always been like this. I just want him to LISTEN to me." Hmmmm, maybe conversation is on her list, ya think? And you are supposed to make it pleasant conversation right now.

Are there any funny inside jokes or memories that you can share? And when your child does something cute, you should tell her about it.

Channel the man that you were when you started dating her. You were trying to win her over. You were chasing her. Well, you are doing that again, only this time, you KNOW what she likes.
Thanks Scotland.

My worry is that it is over or that she has convinced herself it is and believes that no matter what.

I do jooke around with her (our sense of humor together is legendary among our friends). i ahve been working on physical (for me and her. Not a huge part but I'm sure it makes a impression on her). Some E needs she will not allow me to meet because she won''t let me get close to her physically. She does not like me texting her although she says pics of the kids are fine. If I text anything during the day (her work) I am not listening to her. I offered financial support a month ago when she had trouble paying her rent but she said she would find a way (I'm sure she accepted help from OM). My family commitment is the strongest it has ever been and she can't deny that and never would. It has always been an attractive feature. She does'nt want me helping around her apartment (domestic). Can't show her affection (Still firguring how to end the affair but this is tough. Given my job and the fact that NO ONE on OM or WS side cares and my family and friends are done! A handful of friends but she won't listen to them). I make myself as attractive as possible to her physically and with my sense of humor. I would like to ask her out but with the latest turmoil that is not possible. I know a casual dinner out and something fun would be enjoyable but I know now she would say no and wonder if that would be "cheating on OM" (NOT that I care and that is the most ironic thing ever BUT it is a WS mind). I think I need to let things cool off for a week and see what happens. Try for the Plan A my *** off after she cools off. If she goes back to over for some meals and joking around I will probably feel her out and breach the going out question.

I have been VERY honest and open with everything. The finances I review with her at the end of the month even though I don't have to and she shows litte interest but it shows her that I am doing what I did'nt before and am honest.

So I will try to figure out what she needs but since she will not allow me to fill some of those I will fill what I can and work on the others.

I KNOW the loss of our friends and family and the guilt of what she haas done weigh heavily on her not wanting to return. To hard of a road even though I have told her it is a difficult path but I am willing to walk the path with her and our family and marriage is worth it.

Her minds is messed up and I am still here being that faithful and loving husband. Thanks for the help.
You are supposed to be focusing on meeting the top 3 ENs right now. You will wear yourself out and you won't do a well enough job meeting the ones that will matter.

What you should do for asking her out somewhere, is start with doing a family outing, where you ask her to join you guys, and if she turns you down, you go anyways, while sending her a pic. Then, after a short while, you ask her to go out somewhere with you, and if she says no, then you go anyways, and have some fun.
Doing good (IMHO). I had to watch the kids for a few hours at 8 am(on 3 hours sleep) so she could go to a work meeting for an hour. She called to get me up I asked if she needed anything. Milk for the kids. Picked that up and decided to get her a frap from Starbucks (I know what she likes). Took the dog for his bathroom break bc she was getting ready for work. Cleaned the kitchen for her. She was surprised when she got back. Meeting needs but it is still difficult. I don't want her to give up and told her please don't give up.

Will meet with a lawyer Thursday to get child agreements in place (there is worry about her taking the kids to OM place out of state. I doubt that but she is def not in her right mind). My Chief has alot of concerns that WS will do something to cost my job. All it takes is a lie by her and by state law it can happen. There is alot of walking on broken glass. Careful steps and still trying to save the marriage (No one thinks it can be done but as a poster said "Try because today you are still married". It is a delicate balance of meeting EN, being nice and James Bond and ensuring the children are protected. Lots of advice (all appreciated).

Will post after the meeting with the lawyer. She knows I want to save the marriage but things need to be in place so the children are protected. This is tough. I still want to save my marriage and am not doing anything court related yet but talking to the lawyer to get intel on the process.

The nice Plan A is getting a little easier. I just ignore thinking about OM and them together and remember to focus on any chance to my wife and I working on our marriage.

Any thoughts? Thanks.
Try to meet more intimate and personal needs than cleaning.

The idea is to 'drug' her with compliments, attention, affection, PA etc. Not provide domestic help freeing up her time to feel more independent. The frap is a good example of affection.

Remember sometimes when you are hitting the mark, she will be annoyed. Too bad. You won't walk on eggshells.

And I wouldn't 'ignore' OM. That makes you look uncaring.

If you can't confront the traditional way you really really need exposure and possibly a legal attack, like AofA or getting a lawyer to tell him he will be named in the divorce and called up to account for himself.
I was cheering when I began reading this update, until I read this line, " I don't want her to give up and told her please don't give up." RELATIONSHIP TALK, a NO NO in Plan A.

I think that you did a great job trying to meet ENs there, especially since you have stated that she isn't up to you meeting any at present. Just remember that these are things that you are going to do in any future relationship, with or without your wife.

Also, remember that Plan A has both the carrot AND the stick. If you do PLan A without stick, you're veering into PLan Doormat, and you don't want to venture down that path.

Have you given any thought to phoning the coaching center, or getting onto the radio show?
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