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I simply mean to point out that Zhamila is repeating her history: when she feels distant, rather than drawing close, she brings MORE distance. I'm not sure what she hopes to accomplish with that, but if her goal is divorce, she is on the right path.

I don't think she reads my posts. She doesn't tend to respond to anyone who points out flaws in her behavior or plans, only those who hold up what she already believes and does.

She quite likely made a bad decision in partners. Or, just as likely, she has not learned how to be a good partner. When she said that she didn't like having every sentence opposed in the conversation about the restaurant decor, that told me that she is not interested in reaching agreements with someone, she wants someone who will agree with her. That's not a good partner, that's someone who desires a subordinate.

That does not seem to be the impression that Dr. Harley got when he emailed Zhamila:

http://forum.marriagebuilders.com/ubbt/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=2651165#Post2651165


I bolded the part that stands out to me. I don't see Dr. Harley calling Zhamila's husband a dolt, but I do see him saying that their marriage may not survive if he does not get on board and learn thoughtfulness toward her.

Back in April, she posted:


She didn't follow that one basic instruction. She made up a "Verbal Abuse Agreement" (note--you think there's a reason why Dr. Harley calls SDs abusive in the book, but not on the questionnaire or agreement? I do. In the book, the author addresses the reader. On the agreement and Q's, it's spouse-to-spouse).

Markos, have you read the thread yet? Her old ones from '06 are pretty enlightening, too. I don't think for one second that Zhamila is a bad person, but I do think she has a bit of a wall up. She once told me that 'all you had to deal with was some IB and thoughtlessness' and she was dealing with much more than that. Let's see...husband who travels, gets mad if you complain about it, yells about/at the kids (moving a chair? really? ah...the good ol days), verbalizes that she has expectations that are too high, poo-poohs her ideas for sport...sounds very familiar! Only my H also moved out in the middle of the night while we were sleeping. Abandoned his wife and kids. Poof! Abracadabra!

Shazam!

She is not dealing with someone uninterested in saving the marriage. He's imperfect, absolutely. I saved my marriage with someone hell-bent on destroying it. Once he realized what a dolt he was, he changed. Maybe filing for divorce herself will help jolt Zha. She already said she wanted him to do it so it could be 'his fault'. THAT'S abuse, markos, trying to get the person you want to leave to leave you first so you can be the victim. It's gaslighting. "I will make you hate me so much that you leave me, then I will tell everyone how awful you are for leaving me."

This doesn't line up with this:


After all the sessions with Steve AND anger management, he should be taking responsibility for his abuse by now. He is not.

Their marriage has no chance to recover as long as his anger continues, even if Z were the model marriage builder.

Of course she is pulling back from him. He abuses her, drains her lovebank, isn't coming anywhere close to filling her lovebank, and he refuses to acknowledge the severity of his abuse. Women tend to withdraw from that.

Note that Dr. Harley says that Z's husband is CHOOSING to lose her love for him. And if he doesn't change, the marriage will end. Dr. Harley is putting the responsibility for saving this marriage on Mr. Z's shoulders at this point.

He signed the agreement she drew up, enumerating all his offenses. Is that taking responsibility?

Is it?

Dr H is advising on the information he is being given. If that information is slanted by the giver, then he is advising to that slant because he can only go on what he is being told.

We here on this forum have only Z's version of the events. This may be why her husband was so very hurt when he read her journal...maybe what he read was not what actually happened. When my WXH was in the throws of his A, he had a completely different view of various incidents in our marriage.

BTW a perfect example of how his views may have equal merit and be more MB is when Z was upset her husband read her journal....yet, one of the fundamental principles of MB is openness and honesty. We encourage spouses to snoop, we encourage spouses to have each others electronic account information.

Z, why don't you encourage your husband to start a thread here and share his version of what is going on?

I do not need Mr. Z's side of the story to know how damanging AOs are, or how damaging failure to follow follow POJA is. Dr. Harley certainly doesn't.

It would be great if he would start his own thread, but he will not remember how intense his AOs are. His side of the story will not change what damage he has caused.

I was upset when my husband read my journal once, because he punished me for what he read.

Mr. Z was very upset with her because of what she wrote -- he was pretty harsh. I can understand why she would be upset.

Openness and Honesty, transparency, these are all very important. But he has got to do his part and make that safe for her, which he has not.

Dr. Harley on the severity of anger (private forum thread)

Hi Z,

I am glad you caught MB radio yesterday, I thought of your sitch also when I heard Dr. Harley say that.

I agree if you are going to stay together you need to plug back in and start doing the full MB program. It's soo hard when your LB$ is in the negative, I do understand that! You mentioned one time back in your thread that your balance is so low, that even when he does make some deposits, a few bad days really set you back, I get that for sure! I struggle with that sometimes too. Positive UA time makes all the difference for me.

I was thinking his LB$ balance is probably pretty low also, certainly not as low as yours, but probably doesn't help either. Some real positive UA time and LB$ would probably really help!

I don't have time right now to go all the way back through your thread, so I am just going to mention some complaints I remember him making and what I think you wrote that sounded dismissive.

You have posted several times punctuality is very important to your H, he likes to discuss a time and plan with you well in advance, you have stated that this "stresses you out" and is basically unnecessary.

He has mentioned some DS issues, mostly the kids making a mess or not cleaning up behind themselves, you stated you viewed this as "minor" sounds dismissive about that complaint.

You have also mentioned at one point lecturing him, you have posted several times about him asking you to "keep it brief" you did mention working on this issue, but he mentioned it again recently, so I would assume it continues to be a problem.

He recently told you he is "sick of having to repeat what you say" apparently complaining about having to mirror things back to you. (I get he decided to start doing that at SH suggestion to prevent you from going on and on haha) but maybe it's is time to POJA a new strategy.

It also seems that you get upset sometimes when he tells you that he is not enthusiastic about something, but that is part of correct POJA, and should not be viewed as an lb.

I also did want to quote something back to you that i think is interesting........in your original post you wrote

His latest defense is a good offense: �Well, I�m not happy about X.� or �You are constantly DJ�ing and I�m tired of it.� I am working on my LBs, but he considers things DJs that aren�t: e.g. he thinks snooping is a DJ.


Just some thoughts.

Excellent post TIA!!!!!!! eXACTLY my point! She is perfect, he is always "abusing" her or treating her badly by expressing his needs.

Thank you for weighing in Prisca. I always value your thoughts.

Update: Something "broke" last night. It was wonderful.

I was in the bathroom, weeping my l'il eyes out, finally able to grieve, recognizing that my relationship was dead, but that God can raise the dead. I finally 'let go.'

I tried to be really quiet since he was sleeping, but he heard me and came in. He gently touched me and said he was so sorry, he was afraid he's not capable of being a good husband, that he has no business being married to anyone, that he's just hurt me and ruined my life. I told him he hasn't ruined my life, how much it means to me to hear him honestly sharing his hopes and fears, that I like him - love him - and just want to make him happy. I told him I'm so sorry he's hurting, that I want us to be happy together, and that I love him. We held each other, and it's the closest I think I've ever felt with him. We went to sleep reconciled...after wonderful SF, cause I wanted him - I felt so safe and close with him.

He said he has hope. I said so do I. It was beautiful.

(I started this last night...haven't read today's posts, will go catch up)

Another update:

After our lovely evening, I woke up at 2 am with horrible chest pains. They got worse and worse, then I got dizzy and nauseous and couldn't stand up at all. He called an ambulance and they took me in to ER with all kinds of ECG stuff, IVs, etc. I just turned 40 and I'm in great physical shape, eat healthy and get exercise, so I can't imagine having heart problems. I thought I was dying - it was scary.

I told my H in the ER that it was "prolly that awesome orgasm" that did my heart in.

They released me after some tests at 6 am, having found no heart attack symptoms. But the Dr. called later and told me they found a "spot" near my heart. My chest has felt tight all day (all week really) and I'm going in tomorrow for a bunch of scans and tests and stuff.

So all those weird symptoms weren't just my imagination.

We had dinner alone tonight. It was nice. He's going to sleep early since he sat up all night in the hospital then had to work today. He needs some rest. I worked from home.

oops

Thank you for this, Prisca! I'll go read it now.

Thanks TisMe.

I've been working on the punctuality. SH helped me recognize that this is something I can do to show my care for my H. It was difficult to work through emotionally, because he would yell at me when we were late, and I struggled with 'rewarding an AO' But this one is better now. Also, I don't think I said it was "unnecessary." (correct me if I'm wrong and did say this?)Just that it "stresses me out." I try to stay focused on my feelings rather than on judging his needs.

The DS stuff: it doesn't bother me that he complains about the kids' messes - in fact I work hard to keep them from being an irritant to him. What bothers me is his angry insistence on 'punishment' - demanding immediate, harsh consequences for things like backpacks out, etc. I want to guide my children - but I also want to do it in ways that I can enthusiastically support. Having him AO while he insisted upon certain consequences felt really bad.

Yep, lecturing is one o' my faults. And I've been working on it - and listening to recordings of our conversations so I can recognize it when it happens. He also acknowledges that he can't handle much conversation at all (remember the EN Questionnaire share, when he said, "I GET IT" after I read the first sentence on the conversation page?) Anyway, I agree that this is a doozy. Writing stuff to him has helped this, but I need to try it more.

On the 'enthusiastic' thing, I am happy to hear his thoughts and opinions. What isn't fun is when he contradicts every sentence I say, without ever acknowledging that he heard me. This is something Steve tried to help him work on - validating my feelings (he doesn't have to agree). It's awesome when he does it, but it hasn't become one of his habits yet. So, it's an LB as an "annoying habit" in my mind.

Thanks for mentioning these.