Oh gosh...I Cloud 9'd again. And I'm trying not to crash now. Cr*p.

(I kept it brief - didn't want to overwhelm him)
I asked my H tonight how he was feeling, if he was ok?

He said yes, he had fun at dinner and it's good to have something to worry about besides 'us' (my health junk). I agreed!

Then I told him how much I enjoyed our conversation last night, that I could have one of those every day.

He said it is really hard for him to be so open, and he doesn't think he can do that very often.

I asked him if I'm doing something to make it hard for him? He said no. Just that he wants to be perfect and would rather not share his vulnerabilites - ever.

He repeated that he doesn't think he's 'capable' of that kind of intimacy. So I just rubbed his back and told him I love him. We kissed good night.


Oh gosh. Last night was the closest I'd ever felt to him, but he was suffering! Is this intimacy gap something people can bridge? If he really never wants to share his inner self because it's so uncomfortable for him - but I feel disconnected when he doesn't - can we find a common ground?

It works the other way, too. When I try to share my inner self he gets really uncomfortable - changes the subject, interrupts, etc.

I want to be connected to him...I need more than small talk. Maybe it's unreasonable, but that's what I want. If he doesn't want to give it, then I certainly don't want to 'force' him or even try to persuade him. What do MB couples do about this?

Hi Prisca!

Access was "denied" when I tried to read more on this link. Do I have to be in the Coaching program to use that link?

Anyway, thanks for the quote you gave. I'll read it a few more times.

I like your style, NED!

You hold up a high standard for your words and deeds, and it inspires me to do the same.

Z, I apologize if this sounds disrespectful but you really seem to hit highs and lows based on momentary situations. Everything is absolutely wonderful and there's hope or the entire world is falling apart and you feel absolutely unsafe. You also don't seem to be in control of your emotions, you seem to let others around you dictate how you're going to feel.

I can't speak for every guy. I'm a pretty typical guy. But if my wife expected me to have tearful heartfelt conversations constantly or on a daily basis, not only would I be emotionally worn out from trying but I'd get increasingly stressed out on a daily basis. And take this from a guy that Written poetry that�s been published, occasionally crys during sad movies (Blue Valentine as an example). Although it�d be a huge turn off for my wife for me to have constant heart felt conversations.

All MB couples are different in as far as what the spouse needs from the other spouse. Connecting is perfectly fine. And he can definitely learn to listen and acknowledge your feelings when you express them. But I think you�re going to get disappointed if you want him to share his �vulnerabilities� and have long deep emotionally conversations on a daily basis.

My H is very focused on the definition of abuse. This quote from Dr. Harley helps me understand that it's OK to back away from that discussion.

Thanks KT. You are right, I do go high and low. I'll see my Dr. for a cardiac stress-test this week, and perhaps she'll adjust my AD medication. I want this marriage to work very badly, and I seize on any sign of encouragement hoping the tide has turned.



So am I reading this article incorrectly? I want the kinds of conversations described below:


...and this:


This is the standard I'd like to achieve. Am I hearing you say that it's impossible for men to do this? Or at least, very uncomfortable?

I certainly don't want my H to be uncomfortable. And if all men dread having conversations that 'investigate each other' - then why would Dr. Harley suggest this very thing? Why is conversation held to such a high standard in his books and articles?

Health Update: tests were all fine, no sign of a heart attack, tumor, or pneumonia.

Probably just stress. I go in for more testing with my PCP next week...maybe I need a tranquilizer (ha!)

Thank you for this insight, NewEveryDay. It means a lot to me, and I kept "losing" your post to quote, so I'm finally getting to it.

I'd like to ask: does "make it stick" mean "separate until things are improved" or does it mean "keep trying to turn the marriage around?"

I think you mean I should be 'sure that I'm sure that I'm sure' and not be wishy-washy if I decide to separate. Is that correct?

I also want to say that I am very grateful he was honest with me. I would definitely rather have his honesty than have him try while suffering.

Yes, Z has had a problem with DJs and Demands.

So does he. And yes, that is abuse.

But all this pales in comparison to his AOs. Dr. Harley believes AOs are far more distructive, and need to be eliminated FIRST before any other problem is solved.

"Sorry" is a good step in the right direction.
If he is truely sorry, he will never AO again and will start meeting your EN so that you can fall in love with him again.

Yes, the original post is on the private forum, which is for those who are enrolled in the online program.

Thanks!

Yes, the "sorry" was so helpful. I am still holding out hope that he will never AO again and begin meeting my ENs. I want to find a way to have him meet my ENs without feeling uncomfortable.

Prisca: Did you and Markos ever separate? Were you ever afraid things wouldn't work out?

Hi, Z,

No this is not unreasonable. In fact, in order to have a good marriage you are going to have to have good, intimate conversation as described in the article you linked. I would take that article and read it with your husband. Both of you need to review the friends and enemies of good conversation, regularly.

Most of our needs are usually not something the other person feels an emotional need for. An example is how SF is typically seen as a top male need but not a top female need, and another example is how intimate conversation is typically seen as a top female need but not a top male need.

So in order to get our needs met, especially when the love banks are low, we have to work to motivate each other to meet those needs. This means making it enjoyable: the husband with a high SF need married to a wife with a low SF need would be told by Dr. Harley to be sure to make SF extremely enjoyable for his wife so that she will be motivated to meet his need. And similarly the wife with a high conversation need married to a husband with a low conversation need would be told by Dr. Harley to be sure to make conversation extremely enjoyable for her husband so that he will be motivated to meet her need.

The friends and enemies of good conversation accomplish this, if you will commit yourselves to practicing them every day, fifteen hours a week. Dr. Harley says it may be very awkward at first. This is because your low love bank balances give you emotions that encourage you to push each other away. So you may find the conversation is awkward or feels like small talk, but push past that, commit yourselves to keep practicing and giving each other feedback to get it right. The feedback Dr. Harley recommends in his coaching is a weekly worksheet listing times you noticed each other using the friends, or enemies, of good conversation. You want to make sure you are hitting all of the friends of good conversation so that it is enjoyable for your husband. And you want to avoid the enemies. You will find they are our old familiar acquaintances, the abusive love busters: using conversation to get your way (demands), using conversation to force your point of view (disrespectful judgments), and using conversation to punish your spouse (angry outbursts). Also among the enemies is dwelling on mistakes of the past or present.

I recommend you read over that article together and also compare with the conversation chapter in His Needs Her Needs, which is newer and revised a bit as compared to that article. Both of you need to read them. I would not hold out much hope if your husband is not willing to read them and not willing to invest the time with you to practice good conversation. Dr. Harley says fifteen hours a week.

I would also encourage you to be real careful how you word your conversation desires. If you state that your husband is not "sharing his inner self," he could feel judged. He may feel that he is sharing his inner self and disagree with you! The inner self of a man is typically pretty different from the inner self of a woman. Dr. Harley says when he and Joyce are driving around and he falls silent and she asks "What are you thinking about?" his answer is likely to be something mundane like "That road sign over there." Not what a woman is expecting. But if she wants to motivate him to share she needs to be very careful not to judge what he feels like sharing! Focus on the friends of good conversation that are lacking; when they are present, I'm sure you will feel like you are getting the kind of intimate conversation you are seeking. But the way Dr. Harley words things is done very carefully to try to avoid making anybody feel judged.

You are dealing in this post with a very typical and classic problem. Not an anomaly at all. And Dr. Harley has been solving it for couples for a long time.

Z, I think you either misunderstood what I typed or I didn't state it well. Markos put it well when he wrote that what is intimate to you might not be his definition. So he might be sharing his inner feelings but you might feel he's not. What I was referring to was how you felt cherished when he was crying and expressing his imperfections. It might be really uncomfortable for him to express himself in this manner on a regular basis.

And be careful if he says he's thinking about nothing and you try and draw more out of it. Guys literally can zone out and think about nothing.

Perhaps a good place to start would he for him to tellyou how much he loves you,missed you, and share one thing that happenedduring his day

Wow Z, what a night you had! I am glad all test came back clear. Do you think you had some type of panic attack? I don't know why you would have, sounds like things were going great and you were happy, but I have heard that a panic attack can look like heart attack symptoms.

I am so happy Mr. Z apologized, and that the two of you had a great intimate conversation. I don't understand why you were then concerned about crashing the following night? Did something happen?

I hope you will strike while the iron is hot now by really sitting down with Mr. Z to schedule your UA time for the week. If you don't then you will find yourself back to an empty (or negative) LB$ before you know it. This great night and break through will not carry you through for long, but should motivate you. I hope you will start to make it a habit to sit down with him once a week, to plan and schedule the UA time that you can both feel enthusiastic about!

What are your top 5 EN's? You have mentioned Mr. Zs top 3, and that intimate conversation is one of yours, but don't think you have posted the full top 5.

Sorry Z, you are correct, you did not actually use the word unnecessary. I was low on time and just very quickly skimmed over your thread, I looked over it more carefully and no those were never your exact words, I think I got that from this statement that you had written in response to a question to CWMI,

To answer you: no, it is not important to me when things happen, especially things on the weekends.

That to me says you don't think it's necessary. I apologize for putting words in your mouth.

I hope this break through can help you guys turn the corner. Now that he has apologized, and if he continues to avoid AO's, you can really get to work to rebuild your marriage. If conversation continues to be a problem maybe you can contact Steve again to help.

Wow. That's all I can say. What a great post! Thank you Markos!

I did this tonight while we were out - we had a great conversation (from my POV) but I asked him if anything had been uncomfortable, how did he feel about the convo, etc. He gave me some good feedback and some changes to make (i.e. don't ask about his prior marriage). Also, he kept catching himself using "aggressive" language (that's what he calls it, saying "you" instead of "I") and I caught myself a few times. It was actually fun because we laughed at ourselves and talked about how hard it is to never say the word "you."

I will work really hard at keeping the conversations pleasant for him. Thank you for the sage advice.

Funny story: I have these couple friends where the husband calls his wife "Holy Spirit Jr." because he appreciates her insight so much and benefits from her perspective. I'm gonna call you and Prisca "Harley Spirit Jr." in my mind from now on.

Thanks for clarifying Kilted Thrower. This helps me understand your perspective!

Thanks TisMe! It was a good night.

The crash came when he iterated that he's 'not capable' of intimate conversation and didn't enjoy the night's convo. I just got discouraged that he was suffering during a time I felt very close to him. I don't want him suffering so I can have a need met, and I thought he was telling me that it was a lost cause.


Thanks for the advice and encouragement for UA. I'll try...I know I should. I just dread it like I would dread nasty medicine. I get all tight inside just thinking I'll have to spend 15 hours with him next week. This is terrible! I know I must overcome my emotions...argh.


You are so sweet! That's totally ok. And seriously when you catch me DJ'ing, I appreciate it if you point it out!!

It is funny, I try to be extra careful not to judge other people's needs. So though I said "it's not important" I added "to me" because it's not important to me. I realize it's important to him and I respect that, and I'm comfortable that we see it differently. Even if I decide to be punctual for his sake, punctuality still won't be important to me. Other things are more important to me than punctuality, like making sure I am calm and kind while getting ready to leave; or enjoying the moment with a loved-one rather than going onto the next event. But people see things differently and that's what I like about getting to know them.

I have learned so much freedom by just expressing my wants or feelings, and letting other people have theirs. It's more relaxing for me, since I've let go of "trying to run the world."

Anyway, I'm grateful you are pointing me toward improving myself. Thanks friend!