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In one of my sessions, I gave Steve the following example of my concerns.
Example: My W's card club of 12 ladies go for an evening out to conclude their season of monthly card playing and to give a going away to a card member who will be leaving the state (true to this point). While at the restaurant/lounge with appetizers and drinks, my W receives a drink from the waiter that she did not order. She says "I didn't order that", and the waiter says "the gentleman at the bar is buying it". She looks over, and the guy smiles at her and waves, but she doesn't know who he is. She smiles back. Some ladies at the table say to my W "You have an admirer". My W accepts the drink. 5 or 10 minutes later the same 'gentleman' comes over, stands next to my wife and introduces himself to everyone in that area as 'George" and asks my W along with her other friends in the immediate area what brings them out tonight. They explain briefly. "George" asks my W is she liked the drink and holds his hand out to shake hers and asks her her name. She tells him. He then asks my W and the other ladies close by, if they mind if he sits down. My W says that would be ok. George then makes some nice comments about my W, had noticed what she drove up in, that she reminds him of someone, etc etc, etc.
OK I'm a paranoid, but George has just been able to touch my W, knows what she drives, found out her name, is sitting next to her, asked her additional questions, and at absolutely no time has my W ever indicated to George that she has absolutely no interest in him whatsoever. George on the other hand, ever since the drink was accepted, believes he has a shot at something, maybe.
Now, here is what I told Steve I would have preferred happen.....
Waiter brings the drink by, and my W says "I didn't order another drink". Waiter says "it is from the gentleman at the bar". My W looks over at the man and doesn't recognize him, and tells the waiter she doesn't want the drink. The waiter takes the drink back to the man and tells him what my W said. The man comes by moments later with the drink and says to my W, that he didn't want to offend her, but she so much reminded him of someone... please take the drink or it will go to waste. My W says "no thank you, my husband wouldn't appreciate a strange man buying me a drink". The man says, "Well I didn't mean anything wrong by it, please take it...I'm sorry if it came across the wrong way. My W says, "No thank you, I already told you that once, now would you please leave. The man then says, "Well, at least let me introduce myself, I'm George" and he holds out his hand. My W says, I've ask you to leave once, and I'm going to ask you to leave one more time, PLEASE LEAVE!" George leaves.
In the above two scenarios, the first George thinks he may have an opportunity, and in the second, he is shut right down, flame out, ammo gone.
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So I am here, reluctantly, but I am here. I would rather take my husband to a therapist and tell them that my husband cannot get over these things and that he dwells and dwells on them. My husband says that coming here to this forum is the step I need to take.
Me 50
He 57
Son 13 Hi Flowergirl, Welcome to MArriage Builders. The only one I see who has a need for a therapist is you and not your husband. And let me explain why. If your husband told you as far back as your engagement that opposite sex friendships bothered him terribly, why in the world would you have opposite sex friendships? It is not like you don't understand how upsetting it is to him, yet you continue to torment him. Have you considered going to therapy to find out why you would continually and persistently torment this man? I am absolutely baffled by your history and agree it does reflect a shocking lack of empathy. Additionally, if you want your husband to trust your rendition of history, I would suggest you make an appointment for a polygraph and pass a test. That will go long way in earning his trust. Do you want to earn his trust?
"It is not the critic who counts; not the man who points out how the strong man stumbles, or where the doer of deeds could have done them better. The credit belongs to the man who is actually in the arena.." Theodore Roosevelt Exposure 101
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I don't understand why I have to give up my friends when I have not done anything wrong! Tormenting your husband is not doing anything wrong? What is wrong is it hurts your husband and you don't care. If your husband went out of his way to torment you, would you be saying the same thing? You have a serious lack of respect and empathy for your husband. What you are saying is "I don't understand why I can't continue to torment my husband!" <------that is what you are saying. The basic issue is that you have poor boundaries around men. You have placed your interactions with men ABOVE the feelings of your husband. You have sacrificed your husbands happiness and the health of your marriage for these "friendships." Why? Like Dr Harley has noted, jealousy is a normal reaction to a threat to the marriage. Your lack of boundaries are a threat to him.
"It is not the critic who counts; not the man who points out how the strong man stumbles, or where the doer of deeds could have done them better. The credit belongs to the man who is actually in the arena.." Theodore Roosevelt Exposure 101
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I am amazed that so many total strangers would spend the incredible amount of effort to share there thoughts and beliefs with me. Please know that I can't possibly respond right now but that I am reading every post. Some of what has been written I understand, some of what has been written is... I don't know. I don't want to appear ungrateful by not responding to each post. I just can't right now and I hope you each know I am reading what you have written. I am scared of my husband's grim view of our marriage prospects and I don't think this is all just about me. Its easier to block it all out and refuse to think about it. I feel overloaded right now. Thank you each one of you. I need time to think.
Me: 50
He: 57
Son:13 Read the articles here. Come back and ask us questions if you have them. Quite honestly, I don't think I have ever seen a poster on this site who seems to feel as entitled as you do. It takes my breath away, that you are 50 years old and behave like a teenager who expects to have everything handed to you. You appear to have absolutely NO concept of partnership with your husband. I honestly thought initially that you were a 15 year old kid who was playing us, until you posted more than once. Your entitlement continues to scream, since you can't 'possibly' respond to our posts. Are you undergoing an appendectomy? Kidney transplant? What? You had all the time in the world to totally bash your husband and whine about his perceived failings, and now you're suddenly just way too busy? Don't play us. Cut bait or fish. Read the articles here. Learn what you need to know to achieve a loving and mature marriage. Ask questions. We'll be happy to answer.
D-Day 2-10-2009
Fully Recovered and Better Than Ever!
Thank you Marriage Builders!
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I am scared of my husband's grim view of our marriage prospects and I don't think this is all just about me. Flowergirl, I share his dim view of your marriage's future. Can you imagine living in a marriage with a spouse who purposely tormented you? And felt entitled to do so? I can't imagine tolerating such a thoughtless spouse. Do you think your husband is happy?
"It is not the critic who counts; not the man who points out how the strong man stumbles, or where the doer of deeds could have done them better. The credit belongs to the man who is actually in the arena.." Theodore Roosevelt Exposure 101
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Hey there flowergirl. As I read your initial post, I can see your frustrations. But, flowergirl, it is just not that simple. You have to CARE about your husbands feelings on everything. From what you wrote, you never cared enough about your husbands feelings to put his above your own and to stop doing these things. Your sense of entitlement is very evident. If you were single, but in a relationship with someone, they still wouldn't like these things you are doing. Your H may very well be annoying you, being controlling about these things, having angry outburst on these things. If you didn't continue them, you wouldn't be having to deal with his angry outburts. He needs to work on that! That said, what is it you expect of him when you ignore his most basic feelings and deepest fears? It is very difficult to continue to deal with someone repeatedly doing the things you are doing. He, many times, tried the mature way TO COMMUNICATE his feelings to you. You didn't want to listen. So, now, he is trying to get you to stop all these things by trying to control these things out of his life!! HE DOESN'T LIKE THEM IN HIS LIFE!!!! He KNOWS opposite sex friedships are a no-no. He learned the hard way. You didn't give his feelings any weight here, kept right on steam rolling over him doing it anyway.
What I don't see is your understanding of what a real marriage is supposed to be. It isn't just you in the marriage. Marriage isn't just about you and how you feel. What about him? You can't have independent behaviors in marriages. You are partners, ONE. Everything you say and do affects your spouse. You have to care about his feelings, every single one of them, do what it takes to fix any issue, and he has to do the same.
What you don't recognize is that you really have never had the right to ignore your H all these years about your opposite sex friendships. By ignoring him, you told him this whole time, that your marriage, your relationship with him wasn't as important to you as your need to continue to have opposite sex friends and receive whatever it is they provide you.
So, now can you see that your continuing to engage in opposite sex friendships, for WHATEVER reason, has crippled your marriage? Can you finally admit that your selfish entitlement has ALWAYS been at your husband's expense? You should think about that. Each and every time you ignored your husband's feelings and continued a friendship with another man, it took away from something you could give your husband and was at his expense.
These are hard lessons flowergirl. I hope you can get out of your own way and selfishness, put your husbands feelings before your own here, leave your frustrations at the door and see the bigger picture.
Last edited by Littlebit3; 08/14/12 11:27 PM.
BS Me 47,WH 49
DS's x3 17, 10, 7
Multiple D-Days
No disclosure by WH. No EP's, no transparency, no guilt or remorse either.
Plan C DOES NOT WORK!
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I am amazed that so many total strangers would spend the incredible amount of effort to share there thoughts and beliefs with me. Please know that I can't possibly respond right now but that I am reading every post. Some of what has been written I understand, some of what has been written is... I don't know. I don't want to appear ungrateful by not responding to each post. I just can't right now and I hope you each know I am reading what you have written. I am scared of my husband's grim view of our marriage prospects and I don't think this is all just about me. Its easier to block it all out and refuse to think about it. I feel overloaded right now. Thank you each one of you. I need time to think.
Me: 50
He: 57
Son:13 Instead of "thinking", download some of the FREE questionnaires available *** here *** . Ask your H to be completely honest and fill in the love-busters questionnaire. You are making him miserable. You don't want him to be miserable, do you?
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You admit you had an affair in your first marriage. You understand that this tells us (1) you have a history of allowing men outside of your marriage to meet your ENs [ex, conversation and admiration] and (2) you have a history of leading a Secret Second Life. An affair is not possible without these two things. Outside of the fact that these two things make your current marriage very vulnerable to an affair they are very damaging in other ways. All of the below demonstrate that you have never given up these two habits(allowing other men to meet your ENs and having a SSL): Two weeks into our marriage my husband found a Valentines card with a rather over the top level of personal sentiment written to me by a former boss. My husband found several phone calls from me to my former boss on our phone bill. My husband also tape recorded me talking about the fact that I did not want buddy help for my project but that there was a man I respected who I went to instead who made me feel good and that I needed to feel good, and that I needed him then because there were so many things going wrong in my life. I have also admitted to my husband that I engaged in telephone and e-mail correspondence with another man who was family friend of my parents. My husband stumbled upon the facebook message because I left the computer open and I had not told my husband about it. This same old next door neighbor sent me an elaborate electronic birthday card. I ignored it. I did not tell my husband about it but again, my husband found the card. Last week I chose to use a neighbor across the street (a man who is a professional handyman) to help me and our 13 year old son put up a gazebo in our back yard that I knew my husband did not want built. My husband tells me that by keeping a secret with this man.... This is some of what Dr Harley says about a spouse with a history of having a SSL: So one of the most common clues of an affair is an unwillingness to let a spouse investigate all aspects of life. If two lives are necessary for an affair, and if a spouse is curious enough, the secret second life is relatively easy to discover. Difficulty in getting a spouse to talk about events of the day can be a sign of trying to hide the second life.
One of the most common smoke-screens used by unfaithful spouses is to express shock that their spouse would be so distrusting as to ask questions about their secret second life. They try to make it seem as if such questions are an affront to their dignity, and a sign of incredible disrespect. They figure that the best defense is a good offense, and so they try to make their spouses feel guilty about asking too many questions Sound familiar? I think my husband is virtually paranoid. I think my husband is very jealous and controlling and that he needs help. His angry outbursts over the years have been very damaging to our marriage. I will admit that he has done something about them in the last three years. I would rather take my husband to a therapist and tell them that my husband cannot get over these things and that he dwells and dwells on them.
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Outside of the fact that these two things make your current marriage very vulnerable to an affair they are very damaging in other ways. All of the below demonstrate that you have never given up these two habits(allowing other men to meet your ENs and having a SSL) How has not being radically honest hurt your marriage? Here's some examples: Conflict avoidance disallows intimacy.
Conflict avoidance disallows POJA negotiations and mutually happy resolutions to marital problems.
Conflict avoidance is dishonest.
Conflict avoidance creates resentments.
Conflict avoidance shows no integrity.
Conflict avoidance shows no courage.
Conflict avoidance is not caring, but pretends to be.
Conflict avoidance creates vulnerability to affairs.
Conflict avoidance nurtures self-victimhood and martyrization.
If you dare to write: "I did everything for my spouse for years and years" ..... then hear this ....
YOUR CONFLICT AVOIDANCE CREATED THIS HOT STEAMING TURD OF AGONY. Please read this thread for more on how lack of honesty hurts your marriage: Conflict avoidance is the kiss of death
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You understand that this tells us (1) you have a history of allowing men outside of your marriage to meet your ENs [ex, conversation and admiration] My xH was very similar to you, refusing to implement Extraordinary Precautions (EPs) that would prevent others from meeting his ENs. He didn't seem to understand what the problem was or why he kept doing this. This was written to him that I thought summed it up very well (especially the part emphasized in red). Dr. H says that EPs are the cornerstone to affair-proofing your marriage because there WILL be times in marriage when a spouse is unable to meet needs. (illness, injury, etc) Do you think you have a right to have an affair if your wife has cancer and can't meet your needs? Marriage is MORE THAN meeting needs. It is PROTECTING THE relationship so that NO ONE else can deposit love units. You have refused to close your love bank to other women. That is WHY you have wandered SEVERAL times. I understand that my wife has needs as well. But I'm really trying to understand how I did this again. You did this again because you weren't living out EPs. Why did you not have EPs in place? Because it feels good to have your admiration need met by lotsa people.
Last edited by SusieQ; 08/15/12 01:12 PM.
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I am curious as to what marriage looked like to you, back when you got engaged. It doesn't appear to be the same thing that it looked like to me when I married my late husband, because we put each other ahead of all other people and genuinely cared about each other's feelings and wanted the best marriage possible...and you know what? We got it.
It doesn't look like you cared about your husband's feelings or wanted the two of you to be closer than anything. What were you thinking?
You can have the best marriage possible, if you're willing to learn some new ways...start with proper boundaries, learn about each other's needs, quit lovebusting, learn and implement POJA. There is much material on this site, read and learn it. The best is yet to come...if you're willing.
Enacting life's lessons into positive change... .
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After reading the many posts that I received I can't help but feel angry and confused by some of your responses. Some of you I feel were genuinely ready to listen, help and be supportive in helping me and others I feel were just posting to bash out their own anger and let me tell you you are wrong in doing this! You don't know me, my life's history nor do you know my husband or his life's history. To post and be judge and jury is wrong here. Is that the purpose of this site????
My husband has talked with me about some of these responses and says that some are really harsh and others mild and some truely want to help. I have mixed feelings about doing this open posting mainly because of the bashing and verbal scruitiny. This posting stuff is new to me and I can honestly say that if you want to discourage someone from continueing this posting and trying to seek help then some of you have accomplished that by your comments to me!
To others I thank you for trying to enlighten me and help and for giving me links that will help me to understand myself better and to try to help me with my marriage. My husband tells me today that he has given up.
You were only told a bit of our marrital problems and not the whole story so don't be so quick to judge me or throw sarcastic and cruel comments in my face. You don't know everything!
My husband found this website a few years ago and bought some of the books and was active in using this site. He has read a lot of the posts and materials from Marriage Builders. I did read some of the books and we even did phone counceling for a while but decided to end that.
I guess I have spent years of being angry at my husband for things that have happened in our marriage. I have learned to block a lot of those hurtful events from my mind so I can move on. I have not been able to understand why he cannot do the same.
I am hoping to find some help so that I can save my marriage. I'm not sure at this point that this discussion forum is the best way to get help though and quite honestly I am shocked that "Marriage Builder's" allow some of you people to even post.( I think your posts are very damaging to what is belived to be just the opposite of what "Marriage Builders" is based on.)
To kaycstamper: I am willing to learn some new ways... to start with proper boundaries, learn about each other's needs, & to quit lovebusting but I cannot do it alone. I will need my husband's participation too. How do I help my husband to forget what's happened in the past so that we can live for the present and plan for our future? Neither one of us are perfect. I am distraught at this point.
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TheFlowergirl,
Why did you stop the MB counseling?
MB is all about staying in the present and planning for the future. If you know about the program, then you know it advocates extraordinary care for each other, eliminating lovebusters and meeting each other's emotional needs. The goal is a romantic, passionate relationship with your spouse for life.
First, do not harm each other. Eliminate the lovebusters of angry outbursts and independent behavior. Having opposite sex friends that make your H uncomfortable is an independent behavior. It makes him feel badly. Many of the previous posters have addressed this already.
Will you both start at the beginning with the program? Can you do the online program? What parts did you not do before?
AM
PS Usually, the posts that make someone bristle the most are the ones that hit too close to home and identify the problem to be addressed. So, pay particular attention to the posts that make you angry. They are probably identifying what needs to be changed first.
Last edited by armymama; 08/16/12 10:43 AM.
BW - 70
WH - 65
M - 35 years
D-day - 17 Apr 08
H broke contact 11/1/09
Back in love after the worst thing that every happened to us.
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TheFlowerGirl, getting angry is not going to help. You are free to ignore some posters if you wish, although sometimes they are the ones who should be listened to the most.
You said, "how to help your husband forget what's happened the past...". That isn't the aim here. The aim is to acknowledge what has happened in the past and understand that those behaviours have HURT HIM, and then make proper boundaries to avoid repeating these behaviours in the future.
When these boundaries are in place ("extraordinary precautions") and he sees you actively abiding by/respecting those boundaries, then his resentment, over time, will dissipate and you can both feel safe and secure (continuing with those boundaries in place). However, you are not at that stage yet to expect him to forget the past, because right now he has no reason to feel protected. WHEN he feels protected, he can start to leave the past in the past.
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( I think your posts are very damaging to what is belived to be just the opposite of what "Marriage Builders" is based on.) What is Marriage Builders based on, in your opinion?
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I have learned to block a lot of those hurtful events from my mind so I can move on. I have not been able to understand why he cannot do the same. This works both ways. Just as you cannot make HIM forget the past, it is unrealistic (and damaging) for you to try and forget what has hurt YOU either. Can't We Just Forgive and Forget? http://www.marriagebuilders.com/graphic/mbi5042_qa.html
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To kaycstamper: I am willing to learn some new ways... to start with proper boundaries, learn about each other's needs, & to quit lovebusting but I cannot do it alone. I will need my husband's participation too. How do I help my husband to forget what's happened in the past so that we can live for the present and plan for our future? Neither one of us are perfect. I am distraught at this point. **edit** As it relates to helping your H forget the past, you, and only you, can be instrumental in doing it. You have to make him feel secure in everything you do that now makes him feel insecure. Others will point you to Dr. Harley's concept on that more easier than me, but read it. And of course, your husband has to be on board too. You have issues with him obviously. You can carry your end of things, and you will be surprised on what those are going to be. My W was very surprised too, but when "WE" started working on things such as Emotional Needs, Love Busters, Boundaries, they really did all start coming together. Yes, your H has to be on board. **edit**
Last edited by Fireproof; 08/16/12 11:44 AM. Reason: TOS disrespectful and inappropriate
H (me) = never wayward; age = 51; occup = attorney
W = never wayward; age = 49; occup = law office admin
Faith = Lutheran
S = age 20
S = age 19
D = age 17
Married 1990, first for both
Prior User Name "dec810" Marriage Builders 2001
"Evil will flourish, when good people do nothing"
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Yes forgiveness is what your looking for FG, but it can't be found until you have come to the place of true repentance, and your H has gotten over what was also truly painful to him in the past.
Actions speak louder than words I think you will agree, and men understand actions. It takes much time for us to forget what has been done to us, whether intended or not.
Yeah it's just not fair is it? It was his problem. You never intended to hurt him, but you didn't quite understand the nature of Man did you?
It's up to you, there are many ppl here who have been hurt by the ignorance of modern society and it's more's < sp>, and dark alleys of human understanding we all can fall victim to who have found a ray of light in DR Hs teachings, and pull no punches at bringing the truth to light. On the fast track of healing, there is one scripture I can quote that maybe can help you understand how this place works, when you take some of the reactions personal. Not a bible thumper, but these truths are universal and there is a reason they are quoted.
"The kisses of an Enemy are deceitful, and the wounds of a friend are faithful".
I implore you to continue to learn about people and human nature, and take possession of your part of your marriage, as co-keeper of your husbands emotional well being. That's what I believe the questions were aimed at when you were asked about what you believed marriage would be like years ago
Yeah your a marked woman, having had poor relationship boundaries, and being human, falling for the the belief it should be easy. Your a target for every guy wanting a shoulder to cry on
Marriage is no joke, nor is it easy, there are way to many posters here who have been screwed over by even themselves and thier own misunderstanding of what it means to be married.
Understand that your Husband is approaching the age where his body chemistry is changing, and time is short for him to get peace with the past.
You have yet to admit that your behavior hurt him, or that he even had a natural God given right to feel like he did, from what I gather, most of his life.
Keep reading here and learning, your a smart one, you'll get it
It's not about just you or how you feel, it's about how you both feel, and the road you both travel to understanding.
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He says it is not enough for me to say I am sorry or to promise to do what he says. Apologies don't mean anything when you continue the bad behavior. Your promises are empty words...how many times did your husband find you in lies of omission? He would be a fool to believe you since you have PROVEN that your promises mean nothing. Oops...ya forgot to tell him about this, that and the other...AGAIN!!!  My husband states that if I don�t actually agree with the values involved in protecting a marriage from opposite sex friends that there is no hope for us. And he is right if he wants a healthy, fulfilling, loving marriage vs one with a deceptive spouse that is giving him anxiety attacks and disregards him. Your level of thoughtlessness towards your husband is disturbung.
BW - me
exWH - serial cheater
2 awesome kids
Divorced 12/2011
Many a good man has failed because he had a wishbone where his backbone should have been.
We gain strength, and courage, and confidence by each experience in which we really stop to look fear in the face... we must do that which we think we cannot.
--------Eleanor Roosevelt
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We stopped MB because the phone counceling was not convenient times for both of us and I didnt feel that it was helping. My husband has a history of anger issues and his temper was not changing. We have been married for 14 years and only 3 years ago did he start getting help with his anger mngt.
We both have had independant counceling as well as marriage counceling and marriage counceling seems to only make him more angry. It keeps him stirred.
And yes, I have acknowledged what has happened and have expressed to him many times that I am sorry that it has caused him so much pain but it doesn't go away and nothing seems to change no matter what I do or what I try to do. It is constantly brought up and it has been years past.
I cant seem to say the right things or get through to him no matter how hard I try. We are so opposite and yet I do still love him. I just don't understand him and his thinking. There has been so many years of damaging things that we have gone through in our marriage and we both are very brittle. He says I havent tried but I have. I've been open to everything he has suggested. Counceling, marriage counceling etc. We have hit rock bottom. I feel that it's a haunting nightmare that reoccurs everyday and it keeps both of us unhappy and very miserable. I can't change the past and what that has done to hurt him nor can he change his past and what he has done that has hurt me. We can change how we behave now and move forward but that is my thinking. I can't keep going backwards when I'm trying to move forward. It's such a struggle.
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