Oh, and our little gazebo just blew away this week. Wednesday morning we found it upside down in the bushes after the "cold front with some wind" turned out to have some pretty strong gusts in it. We had the corners each weighted down with a 60 pound cinder block.

Flowergirl, I'm going to continue on and hope you are still reading.

Sometimes when I'm pruning I make mistakes. I accidentally cut off the wrong limb because I am careless in following it back to the cane or the trunk. I cut in too far and leave the plant sort of lopsided looking. I don't prune enough and the following spring I'm dealing with a bunch of stalky looking limbs.

So even though I'm trying my very best to care for my plants, I still goof it up. I don't goof it up because I don't really care -- I goof it up because I don't know any better. I wish I had a master gardener standing behind me to direct me because now I know I don't know -- I have a whole bunch of plants to remind me!

I found out it is much the same thing with my marriage. I think most of us get married thinking it will work itself out and when we look up one day and see a tangled, overgrown mess we think, "wait a minute -- I was told that this garden was self feeding and self pruning! No fair!"

At that point, we can get out the Round Up and the weed eater and destroy the whole thing, or we can look around for a master gardener.

You get to choose-- right now, it looks to me like your husband may be on his way to the Home Depot to get the Round Up, but he can always turn around!

Dr. Harley has studied marriages the same way I study my plants -- he's a master gardener of marriages. He knows what marriages need to be fed -- and each one is unique in its own way -- and he knows what needs to be pruned.

He calls the things that need to be pruned "lovebusters" - list of behaviors that make our spouses unhappy. Would you be willing to read about those? I think you'll recognize some of the behaviors in yourself -- that doesn't feel very good. You'll also recognize some of your husband's behaviors -- that feels a whole lot better!

Dr. Harley calls the things that a marriage needs to be fed to thrive "emotional needs." You can read about those here too -- I'd link it for you if I knew how. Everyone has a different list of top emotional needs and they can change -- but men typically have sexual fulfillment and recreational companionship at the top of the list and women have affection and intimate conversation. Can't remember the rest!

I think if your perspective changed a bit your behavior would follow naturally. It looks to me like you view your opposite sex friendships as something that your husband (and the posters on this thread) want to take away from you. It is human nature to hang on for dear life to stuff other people want to take away from us even if we don't really know why we want to keep it.

I see those friendships as something that needs to be pruned off your marriage to keep it strong and vital. I see those friendships as sucking all the life energy out of the marriage -- like a diseased branch you don't want to cut off because you are used to it or it's too much trouble. You wouldn't do that to your plants -- don't do it to your marriage, ok?

I don't have opposite sex friendships because I value my boundaries and I don't want to hurt my husband. I make that choice gladly, but when I first heard of the idea several years ago I thought it was ridiculous and controlling. The idea takes some getting used to, but it is a whole lot easier to implement than you think it would be when your perspective shifts from the idea that you are giving something up to the truth that you are giving something to -- to your marriage, your husband, your child and, although you might find it hard to believe right now, yourself.

Try pruning and feeding -- if it doesn't work, you can always back away and let the garden become tangled and overgrown again or go the Round Up/weed eater route. I think though that you'll like it once you see the new foliage and buds coming in near the cut wood.

That's all I have for you -- I hope you are reading and this helps in some way.

The master gardener and pruner, I like it. Still reading here TFG but staying away from what might be construed as counseling comments.

I do applaud your willingness to do the online course.

FlowerMom, did you start your own thread? I would love to comment on the"Master Gardner"

Dear Flowermom:

Thank you for writing. I did read your first post the other day after my husband recommended that I take a look at yours and forget the others. I had sworn off from this site because of the negativity and mouth from some.
I understand what you are saying and thank you for not being mouthy. I had written you a very long............... response the other day but decided to delete it after I had spent hours on it proofing it.
My h and I had another arguement Sunday. I wont even begin to go into it. It was really bad as he started name calling.
We are both very brittle. Very very brittle! He can't move forward and let the past be and stop briging it up all the time and I have a problem with that. I have a problem with his Angry outbursts for years and threats. (not related to our present problem.)
I just can't keep living in the past and having it thrown in my face all the time. Life is too short to keep dwelling on something that happened 15 years ago.
Maybe I'll write more later.

To have a beautiful flower garden you have to get the soil ready. That requires pulling weeds, tilling the soil, adding manure and requires much sweat on your part. You cannot obtain those beautiful flowers without getting dirty. Just because you do not like the manure part is no reason to walk away from your garden with your hands up in the air saying "i give up".

TheFlowerGirl, I am glad you decided to come back. I have always said that a person who is serious about recovery could not be run off by wild horses. I hope you are serious about recovering your marriage.

Angry outbursts should not be tolerated under any circumstances and I sympathize with you on that. I hope you can get into the Marriage Builders program so Dr Harley can help him with that. He helped my husband resolve his anger problems and has helped many others.

As far as leaving the past in the past, that can't be done when events in the present continually trigger him. Do you want our help in eliminating those triggers?

You have the power to bring him into the present. I am sure your husband wants to leave the past in the past more than you do and you can help him do that. As you can see, just demanding he leave the past in the past does not work.

Eggsactly

I wonder if part of the reason he's stuck is that you don't agree on what the past was?

If he says it was an affair, and you say it wasn't, then I agree, you are BOTH stuck. You both choose to view the past differently.


Now perhaps you have agreed that what you have done is not in the best interest of your marriage, and I've simply not read that. If so, then sorry for going over well plowed ground.

But if you haven't. If you still cling to the notion that your actions do not warrant concern, then I contend that you are a major stumbling block with respect to leaving the past in the past.

In fact, I wouldn't advise him to leave the past in the past, but remain on the lookout for additional past behaviors on your part.

Frankly, until you demonstrate the extraordinary care and protection for your relationship, he is well advised to be concerned about the past.

Not to discount his angry outbursts, as they are not conducive to making for a good marriage. But let's not lay all the blame on him for living in the past. After all, until those issues are resolved to your mutual satisfaction, it will still be there.

Since I've not seen anyone suggest that your behaviors are consistent with a good marriage, perhaps you will consider adopting the strategies recommended here for building a lifelong romantic marriage.

So you each have assignments. Knock off any behaviors that are inconsistent with the MB program.

"]Dear Flowermom:

Thank you for writing. I did read your first post the other day after my husband recommended that I take a look at yours and forget the others. I had sworn off from this site because of the negativity and mouth from some.
I understand what you are saying and thank you for not being mouthy. I had written you a very long............... response the other day but decided to delete it after I had spent hours on it proofing it."

Your story touches me. I see so much pain and misunderstanding on both sides and I really believe if you all will do this program your marriage will thrive. He obviously adores you -- otherwise why would he care about your male friendships?

"My h and I had another arguement Sunday. I wont even begin to go into it. It was really bad as he started name calling.
We are both very brittle. Very very brittle! He can't move forward and let the past be and stop briging it up all the time and I have a problem with that. I have a problem with his Angry outbursts for years and threats. (not related to our present problem.)"

Dr. Harley says arguments are abusive - would you agree? I don't think it is possible to have an argument without at least a few disrespectful judgements thrown in and usually some angry outbursts.I understand how damaging anger is.

I think one of the things we are called upon to do as spouses is expect the very best from your mate. When we don't take action when they start acting poorly, we are letting down our side of the deal.

What worked for us is I said that when I felt he was getting angry or acting disrespectfully, I would leave the conversation for thirty minutes, then I would come find him to discuss how and when we would resume.

Just leaving the conversation didn't work very well as he had no idea what would happen next so he would tend to follow me or leave the house in a huff. Having a set time and an agreement on how we would resume made all the difference. Sitting here, I can't remember the last time I called a time out.

We both win -- he wins because I'm requiring him to treat me with respect so he doesn't have any guilt and I win because I am treated with respect.

We also set a twenty minute time limit on all relationship talks and we go do something fun together -- take a walk, go to lunch, read a magazine together -- immediately afterward which means no relationship talks before work, on the phone, etc. I picked twenty minutes because I noticed it started to get repetitive and negative after that time but I imagine different couples will have different times. I think doing something fun afterwards is very important.

It seems to me that if you guys would get aome systems in place you could talk some of these issues through but until you do that, you are both going to continue to be frustrated.

What do you think?

"I just can't keep living in the past and having it thrown in my face all the time. Life is too short to keep dwelling on something that happened 15 years ago."

Have you asked him what he needs from you to put things in the past? Maybe he could write it down. Having something concrete to look at might help.

"Maybe I'll write more later."

I hope you will.

I read some of your husband's thread again and I have a few more thoughts for you about opposite sex friendships -- those friendships seem to be at the heart of his unhappiness as he doesn't feel safe.

I used to "harmlessly flirt" with men. I knew it bothered my husband, but it is a free country and he just needed to get over it. It was all in fun, right?

Then one day a few years back he specifically asked me not to flirt with an old friend of ours because he had always felt threatened by our "harmless flirting" and it made him feel inadequate.

I think there is a whole world of male ego related communication of which those of us of the gentler sex are blissfully unaware. I think in effect in flirting with other men I was sending them a signal only heard in male ego land that my husband was in some way inadequate and that they were in some way superior. Ummmm --- I don't think so! And I decided no one else was ever going to think so!

Would you agree that that would be a painful message for your husband to get from your behavior? That he is inadequate and that the male friend is in some way superior? I know that would really hurt me -- about like him flirting with a woman and telling me that she is just more feminine and interesting than I am.

"Male ego land" is just my theory -- maybe some of the men here will give their thoughts.

Since that day several years ago, I have made it a point to keep my husband between me and any male -- like if we go to a movie with another couple or are at dinner with bench seats -- I'll make up an excuse why I can't sit in a certain spot. When I enter a room, I make it a point to greet him and give him a kiss on the cheek first before I greet anyone else -- I want to broadcast loud and clear that I'm happily married. I don't allow myself to be in a conversation alone with a man -- I don't want him or anyone else to get the wrong idea.

There are many small things like that that I do -- small, but wow do they make a difference! He almost purrs when I greet him first with a hug and kiss in front of a group!

If you end your opposite sex friendships because you "have" to, you will resent it. I'd like to see you do some of those things because you want to -- cheerfully and with pride that you are protecting your marriage and your husband. I promise you the first time you see your husband purring with pride because this wonderful woman who happens to be his wife is broadcasting loud and clear that he is number one in her life, you will never look back.

Don't worry about it if this all seems overwhelming. No one gets this stuff overnight. I have a whole library of books on relationships and marriage that I've read over the last 10 years. All of the tactics worked .... for a while, but then failed because I wanted him to change his behavior while I carried on how I liked. It was only when I started consistently changing my behavior that we got lasting change.

I sent His Needs/Her Needs to my sister in law a year or so ago when she was struggling with the marriage. This last weekend my brother told me their marriage is great because "she started being nice so I stopped getting mad." I laughed -- your spouse doesn't even need to know what you are doing and you can still change a marriage!

As a man this is one of the most important statements I have seen in a long long time. +1 million

agreed

Yes. Two men could greet my wife with a hug and a peck on the cheek: one is clearly a threat and an "in-your-face" action and the other won't. Go figure.

X 10

Yep, and a husband knows which is which. Call it intuition...they just know.

Also agree, and CP, it should also be part of the how to maintain your woman M.A.

I have some neighbors that are in their early 80's that I help take care of with yardwork, gardening and whatnot, and the love they have for one another is palpable beyond belief. It's wonderful to see, but it also saddens me that I see so little of it from everyone else I know. It's almost like most people are embarrassed to admit, and broadcast, they truly love their spouse. True commitment to your spouse is a sight to behold, but when I actually DO run across it, I'm kind of shocked because I'm not used to seeing it freely expressed very often.

That's sad.

Ring-a-ding-ding-ding!

Winner, winner, chicken dinner!

That is what the majority of posters do here EVERY DAY.

I missed the majority of the "bad old days" when this forum was a mish mash of marriage advice gathered from the various rectums of the internet. By the time I started posting, it was all MB focused.

In these past two years, a second evolution has occurred; posters have begun focusing on how the behavior of the POSTER will improve the marriage.

Some newcomers are taken aback; "They are BLAMING ME for the state of my marriage!"

Yeaaaaah.... NO.

What is done is not to blame someone for the problems in the marriage, but for making them responsible for eliminating the problems in the marriage.


And THIS is what it looks like when someone takes responsibility for eliminating the problems in their marriage.


No, they won't "know" that something has changed, they will FEEL that something has changed when LB$ deposits outweigh withdrawals, and they fall in love with their spouse.





TFG,


If you want to stop having the past brought up in the present, you need to eliminate the BEHAVIORS that bring the past into the present.

It can't just be swept under the rug.

You have to make the choice to protect your husband from those behaviors you choose that cause you to be the source of his unhappiness, rather than the source of his happiness.

We will help him to do the same, in his own thread.

You have a husband who wants a fulfilling marriage; I suggest you quit wasting time pouting, and take advantage of the rare opportunity you have before it's gone.

It has been stated that, statistically, a marriage has better chances and recovering and becoming a GREAT marriage when the husband is on board.

There is no such thing as "harmless flirting."

opt

Exactly. Plus it is just flat out disrespectful to the one you promised to love and cherish for life.

Every day I think about the rule of protection �never be the source of your spouse�s unhappiness�

An interesting thread on flirting.
Mulan's long rant on flirting