I have not read your whole thread but wanted to address your last couple of posts.

Marriage Builders is ALL about action. Words mean little to nothing, ACTION is the only way to recover after an affair.

The goal of Plan A is to show your spouse what they can expect in a marriage with you, if they choose to leave their AP. Show them what they will be missing if they don't. So that if you move into Plan B, you do so by showing them YOUR BEST before you do.

However, if you have not been posted the "carrot and stick of Plan A," there is also a STICK involved. Plan A is also about doing what you can to break up the A, using snooping techniques, exposure, etc.

You are basically showing your spouse how great life can be, and how you are willing to work toward recovery by creating a NEW M that is better than the one pre A, IF they will stop their A.

If your spouse chooses not to stop their A, then you move to Plan B. Plan B is NO CONTACT with your spouse. It is a dark separation where your spouse loses all ability to get their needs met by you, and sees the opposite of what Plan A shows them, which is what life WITHOUT you will bring. Also, Plan B gives the BS the ability to get out of the drama and work on personal healing.

Dr Harley gives different timeframes for how long someone should be in Plan A. Women seem to have more physical distress from it and therefore he says no more than 3 weeks. Men however seem to be able to handle it better, and for that reason he says that a BH can be in Plan A for much longer (I want to say 6 months to 2 years).

When your spouse decides to end the A and work toward recovery in your M, you should be providing them with a list of EP's that they MUST FOLLOW for you to be willing to work on recovery with them. The first and most basic rule is NO CONTACT FOR LIFE with their AP. The consequence to breaking EP's seems to be subject to different situations, but the most important EP is NC with the AP, so IMO the result of breaking that EP should be moving to Plan B.

Seems harsh? Adultery is painful and harsh. Your spouse needs to know that YOU, will not accept an M where there is a 3rd party involved. That you will not work toward recovery in an M where she is continuing to contact her AP. You require more. A slap on the wrist will do nothing but tell her that a 'slip up' is not that big of a deal. It is a very big deal, and puts your recovery work back to day 1.

Man_learning,

Can anyone else give me guidance on how to handle a breach of the no contact by the WS? Is it just words (what words) or is it action too (what action)?

Since you haven't exposed OM to any great degree that would be the first thing on my list. In the meanwhile to continue to gather information on OM.

God Bless
Gamma

OK I have read through your thread a little bit and I have a couple comments.

Your DDay was early June, which was over 2 months ago. She should NOT still be in withdrawal at this time. If she is still unrepentant, angry, and unwilling to take the steps necessary to work on recovery, you have a decision to make. Your choice is to keep plugging along in a pre recovery state (if she is not working TOWARD recovery you are not really IN recovery right?) waiting for her to snap out of it, or go into Plan B.

Remorse is one of those difficult topics on these forums. Dr H does not say that remorse is necessary for recovery. Action is necessary. The WW in the book SAA does not apologize for her A. Yet through the proper actions, they recover their A.

However, for SOME PEOPLE, this does not seem to be enough. I fall into this category. I HAD to have a WH who came hat in hand, groveling at my knees, before I would be willing to invest in recovery. In the beginning of our recovery, he was remorseful, he was willing to take any action, but he was NOT completely remorseful in the way I needed him to be. I was resentful and did not invest in recovery until he was.

What do YOU need for recovery. Do you need a completely remorseful spouse? Or will you be able to move forward with a spouse who is just going through the motions, at first, knowing that the action will result in a recovery at the end?

In any case, neither of these apply to your WW right now because she is not remorseful, and she does not seem willing to do the ACTIONS that are required to recover.

You seem to be a man of action, that great. That is what MB is all about. You need tell her that YOU are willing to stay in this M and work toward a better marriage using the MB principles, IF she does the following: list your EP's, most important is NO CONTACT FOR LIFE with her AP. And ALSO included is a requirement that she works the recovery program of your choosing, which would be MB.

After over 2 months if she is unrepentent, and still making contact with her AP, and unwilling to 'work the program,' she is still either involved in her A or at the least unwilling to do anything to recover this and heal you from the pain she has caused you, and its time to move into Plan B.

So you don't give them the list of EP's until she comes around during plan A?


She admitted the AP texted her, but she has not admitted to responding to those contacts. But if I understand how things are measured in these circumstances, the time for withdrawal is measured by DDay, but rather his last txt to her.

Also Dr. H writes that withdrawal only lasts about three weeks and then fades over the next six months.

So I am not so sure that her behavior is not withdrawal. At the same time I do not know if she has truly stopped all contact.

I like the term pre-recovery and that is maybe where we are at. Is plan A pre-recovery?

I do not need a completely remorseful spouse and from what I have learned on this forum, WWs usually do not have or show remorse.

She has come with me to three meetings with a so-called MC. We both decided not to continue with him. She has come to one meeting with my IC. She also sees an IC. I am continuing to improve my side of the street and try to resist making selfish demands on her.

If I go plan B, I would want her to leave the house and me to stay with the kids. Is that the typically recommended here?

I do not think I should leave this house. Also if I do and she starts seeing him again, I do not want my kids to see her with him at our house.

I guess I'm not clear on the question then. How do you handle a breach of no contact?

You either do nothing or do something about it. It's all in what you want out of a marriage--what requirements must be met for you to stay married to her. It's not marriage at all costs, but I realize that it may take a while for you to get to that point.

Me? It was realizing that I was flat-out DONE with the back and forth and that I REQUIRED fidelity in my marriage. If she was not willing to be that type of spouse, then I told her to go file for a divorce before the courthouse closed because I was done with all of this sh*t.

So that's really it. She either continues with contact and you put up with it hoping that she'll snap out of it (Plan C) or she continues with contact and you remove yourself from the situation (Plan B, D or FU, your call).

Yes, you are correct on those points. As a wayward, she is not a fit parent.

I really think that your question above MUST be resolved first.

All of the rest--whether Plan A, B, C, D, FU or what to do here or what to do there is dependent on the status of the affair. It's a bit premature to worry about the million what-if's when the most basic question (contact or no contact) has not been answered.

Verify NC and go from there.

I'm coming back to this with an analogy:

Your brother Bill has a .22 revolver and shoots you in the foot. "Oops, sorry about that, won't happen again!" BANG! You just got shot again. "Oops, sorry about that, won't happen again!"

So do you stick around and hope for the best or do something about it? There's no right or wrong answer, it just depends on what you will put up with in life.

Infidelity or a .22--same difference.

NOTE: Prerecovery is NOT an MB term, just something I used to state that you were not really in recovery if she was refusing to work the program. Plan A is used when the affair is still going on. Since this A, as far as you know, is over, you are no longer in Plan A you should be in Recovery.

Have you thought about counseling with the coaching center?

What is recommended for Plan B is to present her with a Plan B letter, change the locks, and yes YOU would stay in your house and with your kids. If you see that in your near future, you should find out what your rights are regarding staying in your home and custody of your children.

I am not an expert on any of this. I did not have to do Plan A, Plan B, seek an attorney, etc. I am just stating what I have learned from reading here over the last year.

The advice given to men is to NEVER leave your home, and to find out your rights and fight for your rights regarding custody. Hopefully some of the other men who have been in your circumstances will post with advice regarding this. Once you have left your own home, you lose rights so do not do that.

Who does Dr. H expect to do the heavy lifting to repair the affair-occasioned damage to the marriage, the BH or the WW?

I ask this because I have read what Markos wrote in another thread, i.e., Dr. H, in general, "tends to be much harder on husbands, whether they are betrayed or wayward, placing a huge burden on them, fair or not, because that's what works."

Is Markos write about this?

Doc H say's that women can not handle plan A'ing more then short term. Where men he still holds to the 6 months. Have not read his latest edition.

As to recovery the BS/men and women, has to do the heavy lifting. The BS has to fight to kill the affair. The BS has to monitor for 100% NC post dday. The BS has to get recovery moving.

Where is the WS, getting defogged. As defoging takes place the WS's eyes open up to the carnage, learns MB ways, then is able to pull their share of the load and then some because there BS is worn out.

Like a car with a very dead battery. It takes a lot to jump start the WS back into the marraige.

Thanks TheRoad. I follow what you wrote.

As a WW begins and progresses with an A do they usually rationalize or justify it in their mind by putting their H down in their mind and/or to their friends?

Or do they typically dwell on H's faults to make the disloyal and harmful conduct seem fair and/or appropriate?

My understanding is that this is typical for WW to do. Am I correct in this?

Hoping to get further insight on withdrawal.

I believe Dr. H wrote about how withdrawal may result in anger and resentment toward the BS.


Can you give me any added insight about withdrawal or a link to more info about it?

She felt that the book I asked her to read suggested the affair was all her fault. She also did not like the book's suggestion that the WWS should honestly answer the BS questions about the A.

Can some of you please give me your thoughts on the above?

Yest i have thought about counseling with the coaching center. I also got a referral to a new MC from my therapist.

At this point W is not too interested in seeing another MC, but again she did come with me to one of my IC meetings. I am inviting her to attend my next one on the 29th. I will continue to push for MC.

I hope me pushing for MC is not considered a selfish demand, is it?

Sounds like she doesn't like having a light shined down on her (current, not past) behavior.

Pretty common responses, I would imagine, for someone in an affair.

Confirm NC first.

Manlearning, I see alot of holes in your "recovery" and would suggest you take a more pro-active approach. Your complacence tells her you don't care very much. I would fight harder for your marriage if you want this to work.

First off, I would get some spy tools on her. Put spyware on her phone and her computer. If you can get spyware on her phone it will give you a GPS position.

SEcondly, anytime that POS contacts her, all hell should break loose. You should be paying that crapwit a personal visit along with doing a nuclear exposure on him. Is he married? If so, then call his wife. Call his mother. Send out facebook exposure letters. Make his life a living hell if he contacts her. CAusing conflict will run him off and it will also show your wife that you care about your marriage.

The next step is to DEMAND that she end all contact. That means that she blocks him out by changing contact info. If you can't verify what she does at work, then that must change somehow. She will have to do what it takes to open up her worklife to you, even if that means leaving the job.

Let her know that the current state of the marriage will lead to divorce. Here is another post I wrote about how that conversation should take place:

"She felt that the book I asked her to read suggested the affair was all her fault."

Well, unless she was physically forced, the affair was all her fault/choice/decision.

X "made" me do it is not generally an acceptable excuse after age 4.

"She also did not like the book's suggestion that the WWS should honestly answer the BS questions about the A."

Maybe if she feels safe in the conversation -- NO Lovebusters -- she might be more willing.

Think of her like a kid who got caught with her hand in the cookie jar. If you react with anger and judgement threatening punishment, you will get denial and excuses. If you react with warmth and humor, you will get truth -- the kid was sad, lonely, hungry, her brother got a cookie earlier and she didn't, she needed attention, etc.

Manlearning, were you angry and threatening punishment in response to the truth about her affair?