I think your xWH will be trying to deal with a set of inputs from you that some of us here have experienced.

It started with the DS issue:

UW: I REALLY hate cleaning, etc, and don't do an excellent job.
MB: Well, try this, or this, or this!
UW: Get off the DS already; I'm not that bad!
MB: ???

And then in June(?):

UW: There remains a difference in SF desire/expectation....
NG: Well, if it remains an issue, you might explore....
UW: AGAIN with the SF, NG? Must you insist on bringing it up?
NG: ????? (followed by NOT communicating with you directly)

And this week:

UW: I retain a higher SF expectation than UWH....
UWH: Well, honey are you interested in a little recreational SF? (Twice!)
UW: No! (Again: Twice!!!!)
UWH: ?????????

Here is my last service to you, UW: Do NOT waste your efforts telling me how unfair I am. (That would only set in concrete my conclusions!) Instead, put the question to the population of collegues out there, and ask them if they detect the same ASK- RECEIVE - REJECT cycle that I have noted.

(Posted while ON VACATION - during my grandson's nap!)

DS: I am cleaning 4 hours a day. I took your advice to just get off my high horse about not being good at it, and do it. And I am (or, at least its a constant work in progress). I also took Indie's advice about how I was sacrificing with regards to DS and am trying to work out other options to 'help' with this need and make me sacrifice less. I don't understand why you feel I rejected your ideas regarding DS??? (the only time I said I was not that bad, as I recall, is saying that I wasn't a hoarder or anything, because we talked about it in length and I didn't want everyone to think I could be on the hoarders show or something...)

SF: I don't recall everR telling you, NG, to stop bringing up SF. Heck I'm the one who always brings it up. I have pondered over, discussed, or implemented every suggestion I have been given. None of it has worked. Frankly, I just get overwhelmed, and have to stop talking about it for awhile sometimes.

Turning SF down this week: I thought that's what I was supposed to do! Play 'hard to get.' What is hard to get about saying yes every time? Plus, that whole theory that H likes the quick and easy SF, which would indicate that to get more monumentous SF I should NOT engage in quick and easy SF, therefore I'm not.

I do not agree that I am rejecting your help, or anyone else's help or ideas. There isn't a single idea that has been thrown at me here that I have not explored on the board, explored with H, or implemented on my own.

I do not mean to say you are being unfair to me, I am just totally confused by your post.

OK, since NG doesn't seem to want to post to me because he thinks I reject suggestions by the board. Per his request I will throw the question out to the rest of you. Do you ALL think I ask - receive - reject?

I haven't read everything, but I do get that impression. NG reads every damn thing so I would strongly consider his objective point of view.

When you ain't ate in a week, some crackers are pretty damn good!

Now, let's clarify about letting your husband pursue;

Simple; let him pursue.

You ain't subtle?

That's a skill, not a genetic personality trait.

Rather than asking him if you are gonna get lucky, run your hand down his chest and tell him he's handsome.

Yes, T-Rex wants to hunt... but what that means is he wants to identify his prey, rather than have it run straight into his mouth.


The idea isn't to "play hard to get," rather, slow it down and suggest the possibility, rather than guaranteeing.


We used to have make-out only nights.




... it never really worked.



It's strange how people react when you add a little pursuit...

I feel totally defeated.

I keep thinking I am doing good.

NG's post makes me feel like you all think I'm just screwin up here.

You are all the only support I have in recovery, and if you think I am screwing it all up, clearly I am.

I can't even figure out this SF thing, it has gotten worse and not better.

Today, I just want to throw in the towel.

I was going to post some thoughts about how a guy typically views 'the chase and the hunt' vs. 'what is already caught' and how this effects the psyche of a man and his desire for SF. We are really simple creatures (men that is) in most ways. The allure can decrease when there isn�t some level of honest excitement.

Truth is most of this has been covered in one way or another in your thread.

Some have suggested letting him chase you, you chase him, tease him, don�t tease him�on and on and on. Truth is it isn�t working for you.

UW, I can SEE how frustrated you are. I get it. You resonate frustration through the screen.

I started asking myself what I would do if I were you. Seems like you have tried just about everything and nothing is working.

What I do know is that after my W�s A, FR and now working on R�I will not allow myself to harbor any resentment AT ALL. I don�t care what it is. It isn�t going to happen. RC, SF, O&H whatever�.if something isn�t working, I am going to discuss it and using POJA find a solution.

In the end, we all have our breaking points and know what we can and cannot accept.

If it were me, I would just sit my W down and say �hey, this isn�t working. We must come up with a solution as my LB is evaporating at a very fast rate and it scares me. I want a great life with you but _____ is a SERIOUS issue. Do you love me? Do you want me to love you with all MY heart? If so, we have to come up with something that works for both of us or I fear the worse for our future. Yes, this issue is THAT important to me�

At that point, I would just see what the response was and go from there. If he is willing to work with you, GREAT! If not, at least you know where you stand.

At some point, he is either all in or all out. Ya know?

Stop it. This is NOT true. Stop it now. I am getting upset that you are upset with yourself!

You can ONLY control YOURSELF. It is NOT your fault if he doesn't want to play ball.

Please don't put ALL of this on yourself. You have the right to your thoughts and feelings. They are YOURS to own.

Look, we all make mistakes and none of us are perfect. That is reality.

If he can't accept and RESPECT your position on things then you have to ask yourself how much more you can take.


All you can do is your best. That is it. Period. Does it hurt? Heck yes. I can tell it does. I can tell you feel rejected. That totally sucks.

At the same time, you seem like a wonderful person with a lot to offer. You are doing great!

Are you making the best decisions every day with the information you have?

If the answer is yes, then the chips are going to fall where they may and you will have nothing to be ashamed of!!

Yup. I know. Unfortunately, I had this exact conversation with him about a month ago. I wrote about it here. He responded very enthusiastically with ideas on what HE could do to change his own desire for SF, we walked away with a POJA'd plan of action. I thought we were making progress. He went home and did none of the 'to do's' on his list. So here I am, with things worse and not better.

This process is so hard. Is it even a process? Or just me stumbling around on my own, putting now year 13 into a hopeless cause. Feeling rather stupid right about now if that's the case.

And thank you for the pep talk.

I guess I feel like I need to cut him off for awhile for this to be effective. Because he has NEVER not had a guarantee from me. In that respect, in his own mind, based on history, it is a guarantee, whether I ask if I'm getting lucky or use a more subtle approach. Either way in his mind it is a guarantee that if he is game, so am I, because I have always been.

IDK the more I hash this whole SF thing out the less I want SF because it just seems too damn complicated and rejecting and BAD.

And I am getting resentful about it. I am trying very hard not to, because I don't WANT to be resentful again. But this whole dynamic is making it VERY VERY hard not to.

But it wasn't. Like you, I did the best I could with what I had to work with. No regrets. Can�t take back time. I would have never married someone who I thought was going to cheat on me. Who would?
None of us have a crystal ball.

Are there any consequences for his inactivity of his 'to do list?' Were there any discussions of cause and effect? ie...reward vs. the unpleasant?

I would talk to him about turning down the quickies though. He may be getting mixed signals. We guys get confused VERY easily. Trust me.

If it were me, I would sit him down and say �This is what�s up ___________ ! Here is exactly the way I see things __________ What is your perspective? Can I expect anything different from you or are we just wasting our time?�

Well 20 Years, he DOES read this thread. In fact I know he just read it on Saturday, so he is pretty up to date on things. Can't imagine how that is possible without knowing exactly what struggle I am going through. In fact, it almost makes my efforts non effective, as he knows what my overall game plan is.

I did have this talk with him yesterday. It was painful. For so many years I tried to approach him and talk about our issues, before I knew about MB of course so I did a few things wrong in my approach. Now I have a really hard time approaching him with things, I have to be in just the right mood. Which I was not in this weekend, but because we were by the end of the weekend not really even speaking to each other, for no obvious reason other than his withdrawal and my subsequent withdrawal, I felt I had to bring it up anyway.

I told him what was going through my head. My frustration with his lack of effort. My frustration that all summer he had commented that he wanted a 'weekend with me' but done nothing to plan that. Finally, I had planned that, and in many ways it was squandered. I had researched all kinds of fun things to do and sent them to him in an email. We ended up doing none of them. I said I didn't care about the activity, as long as we were spending quality UA time together.

Just a couple days before, I had said to him I wanted our UA time to meet our INTIMATE needs and he got irritated and said that was demanding, he assumed I meant sex. I said honey, there are FOUR intimate needs and SF is only one of them, I wasn't even talking about SF in particular. Anyway yesterday I told him how frustrating it was that 2 yrs into recovery he doesn't even know what UA time is supposed to be about, or what the 4 intimate emotional needs are. Really? That is the level of emotional investment I have here.

I asked him if perhaps he is struggling with something that would make him just simply not care. It was my very delicate way of trying to see if he thought he perhaps was struggling with depression or something like that, because his general attitude is malaise, not just in regards to us. He said he didn't know. I expressed frustration that he had not acted on anything on his to do list, that our M still did not seem the priority, etc etc. Broken record. When I say it out loud even to him I feel like a broken record. It seems like worthless words, I have said them so many times.

He says the right thing. He just doesn't follow through.

His response to this conversation was sadness, defeat. I think he was struggling not to withdraw some more. And kindof anger, he said he had to give up on the notion that 'somebody was going to rescue him from this' and I asked him if he thought I was going to rescue him, and he said that is just what he was used to. Hrm. Not sure what to take from that.

Last night and this morning he said all kinds of sweet things about how he was going to make a new action plan, yada yada. IDK I'm not really in the mood to listen to the words today.

I do not see that you can ignore SF and just work on the other EN. It is your primary EN. It has to be the place you should work the hardest on POJA and avoiding Love Busters.



Great! Progress.


You are responding to the past and the present because you see the pattern being repeated. Focus on the present and give him feedback as soon as "he tells me I am being demanding or in some way rejects me". Ask him why without Love Busters. Help him communicate without Love Busters. If he Love Busters, tell him "that hurt" immediately. If you Love Buster, apologize immediately. Do not pull back. If he pulls back gently pull him back in by asking what is going on without judging. Gain more understanding with each occurrence.


Find the middle ground. Be sexy and inviting. I will guess he feels the rejection and judgement when you go to bed. Talk about it. Agree that you can touch, snuggle, and lovingly say good night without SF. And sometime it will lead to SF.



Great you have identified one of the problems. Let go of your resentment about SF. You are not a beggar. You are a salesperson. Walk away from the resentment. Do not make him feel that he cannot satisfy you. Men are much more sensitive then we like to think (especially about SF). You are putting him down. You need to make him feel safe with SF.

How am I putting him down? How am I making him feel he cannot satisfy me? How am I making him feel unsafe?

I'm not a salesperson, that would a prostitute. I am just a wife who likes to have sex with her husband. Somehow it is far more complicated than that though.

He cannot EARN that worthiness if she is judging his present behavior with resentment tainted glasses. Every little slip up on his part puts him back to her lowest judgement from the past. She needs to give him a chance to succeed or end it.

I would say her attitude matches the female stereotype of never being happy and forever unsatisfied. That is no way to motivate your partner.

They need to believe they can take care of each other and satisfy each other. They both needs to feel safe. They need to both put down their guards in some area (and I'd choose SF) so they can see that they can succeed.

I am sorry that you are having a down time, its seem like its just the ride we are on.

I just have a thought/question sorry maybe TMI

when you say quickie- what do you mean? how often do you have these?

what is you H top needs? lets say 3

do you think your need for high need for SF has more to do with you need for affection/admiration than you think?

I am sorry for being a butinsky, some of you threads got me thinking lately� I have some more thoughts, but I wanted to check in with you first

Good for you! You are standing up for yourself and respectfully communicating your thoughts and feelings. Way to go!

Well, it sounds like his LB with you is going to go broke very soon. If I were him, I would be VERY worried about this. And if he is reading� Good. He should know there are consequences, both good and bad for all behaviors.

He SHOULD realize that EVERYTHING he does either is a LB deposit or withdraw and be cognizant of that fact. He SHOULD realize what an empty LB means.

For me, if my W was to say 'here are my intentions _____ but I am not sure how to implement them correctly. Can you help me?" I would have much more respect for her if she said this then if she were to make a bunch of promises and not follow through.


We should not have to hold her hand through R or to implement fundamental changes for our spouses. My W, like your H, are both grown adults. They are not children looking for mommy and daddy to bail them out anymore.

What are the consequences for him not respecting your thoughts/feelings and not taking action on them? He has to know you won�t settle for this forever. Right?