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Can you perform an intellectual exercise for me?

Cut the affair out of your history - you never had it, he never got hurt by it - nothing!

Okay, now compare the elements (particularly the ones that you now are dissatisfied with, having learned the MB principles) of your existence TODAY with the time between your wedding and that event which we've already agreed never happened. The ones that I can remember from your recent notes are: less "together" time than you want resulting from his preference for "boy" time, and his expectation that you achieve/maintain a higher level of physical fitness than you would feel was adequate.

How do they line up?

It is not of interest whether your resentment is higher. You've changed from your education here, so it is to be expected that the way you view "conflicts" between your lifestyles will be sharper.

Was he less "there" than you wanted in the earlier period, as he is now? Was his expectation that you "tone up" more a divisive element earlier as well?

As the MB poster-boy for "spousal abandonment while remaining married" I can attest to the highly corrosive effect of being "busy" with anything (although my interests were profitable) to the detriment of the union. If FBH cannot be made to understand that, you will struggle as you "sacrifice" your need for together time to his need for...male camaraderie?

And as for the other...you're burdened with deciphering which of his particular ENs would be supplied by your striving for some FBH-defined physical fitness standard. (Or even if achievement is less the purpose than your adhering to his regimen!) Attractive-Spouse would have a certain limited return after a definable level is reached, and I would infer you've gotten there. RC does not seem to be the driver, unless he only sees RC with you in terms of sweating and straining.

Kerala preempted the thrust I was working toward, so let me quote the famed Eastern mystic, Won Hung-Low, who said:

Woman marry man, thinking he will change, and he does not. Man marry woman hoping she will endure, and she changes.

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Hi DoroM,

I have not read your whole thread, just the first few pages, and the last few. I hope you don't mind if I comment.

I applaud you for sticking around, learning the material, and doing the work it took to get you to this point. I disagree with some of the posters who say you need to be firm on the POJA AT THIS POINT IN TIME. I think you need to get your H on board first.

When I first found MB, I was happy as can be, because I realized that Dr Harley's plan could make our marriage into a wonderful thing. The kind of marriage I had read about in fairy tales. It has done that for us, but we had to have a starting place, agree to take the journey together, and then start working on it. It has been a little more than 10 years, and we are blissfully happy with our marriage. (But we live in the real world, and some parts of life still suck, I am not saying that EVERYTHING is perfect.)

We started by reading HNHN, and Love Busters, and agreeing that we both had problems, and needed to work on them. We agreed that the concepts were sound, and that we would implement them in our marriage.

You have read the material, and I believe you know it will work if the rules are followed. Your question is, how do you get to the point where your H will cooperate with you on working the plan, and following the rules.

It looks like you are willing to work the plan, but you wonder how to make it work if H won't help. (I mean no disrespect to the other posters, I believe in the plan too.)

The big question is, how do we get H on board?
And the answer is - maybe we can, maybe we can't. We don't know that yet. There are things that can be tried, but it may take time. I think you are in my spot. You can see what will happen if both of you don't get on board, and you also see glimpses of how good it can be if both of you do.
And of course, you are afraid it might not work, and that is scary.

You are going to have to make some decisions as you go along. (Thankfully you don't have to make them now.)
"If my H doesn't get on board, will I stay with him?"

You know that there are pre-existing conditions. He WAS like this before you married him. We usually think that time will work things out, and we go ahead and get married. There are too many things we don't know, and that is probably good, because if we knew it all up front, it may be that none of us would marry at all.

Before you married, you didn't know about MB, and you didn't compare his actions to the ideal, and ask your self if he measured up to MB standards. (Ha, Ha, neither did my W, and if she had, I might still be single.)

So you have a hard time explaining all these thoughts and feelings to the other posters when they encourage you to move forward and be firm. I believe you are kind of stuck, and don't know quite how to move forward.

I think you need a plan.

Probably the best starting place is to talk to Steve again, which you are already planning to do.

Be aware that this may take time. Be willing to make the changes in yourself that you need to make. (None of us are perfect, and you may as well do what you can.)

Realize that you can't change your H. He has to come to the point where he wants to make changes, and then HE has to make them. You can encourage, and help, and teach (but only teach when there is a student present. Don't attempt to teach when he is not in student mode.) And you can hope and pray, but you can't MAKE him do any thing.

Also realize that if he does not want to change, or if he is not willing to change (no matter what he says, you must judge by his actions) then you have to decide what YOU will do. You can think about this as you go along.

Have some hope. Your having a happy life does not depend on him. It would be best if he does get with the program, but he may not. You can be happy anyway. You need to know that.

Keep thinking, don't give up hope. Talk to Steve,and make a plan to get your H on board.
Right now it sounds like your H believes that if he doesn't mountain bike harder and faster, and climb 5.14D his life will be wasted.
My Wife and I have found that there are some things that we can do apart, but that if we spend proper time together each week, our marriage and our lives are richer, and more full. And we have learned that our M comes first before friends, or hobbies.

If you are to help to bring your H to the same place, it will probably take time and patience. I think you have it in you to do the work. Relax a little bit, realize this is a marathon, (or half marathon) not a 100M sprint. Try to find the good in each day, as you work to make things better, and don't worry to much about bad days. All of us have them, they don't ruin our lives.

I have a question for you. If you had it to do over again, would you choose chocolate, vanilla, or strawberry ice cream?
No, it's not a trick question.
Yes, you have to answer.

SS


I think sometimes about all the pain in the world. I hope we can ease that here, even if only a little bit.
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INDIE-Despite my best efforts to NOT say anything, we did talk a little bit last night. I asked him if he loved me more than climbing, and he said "I think so". Not the best answer I could've asked for...but he did say that it wasn't until recently (2 months) that he knew/decided/etc that he did love me again after what I did. He said he want to put me first before all of these other things. He also got frustrated and defensive, saying this was "futile" and he was "tired" of going round and round about the same thing. I asked if he was tired of me wanting myself/our marriage to be first and he said yeah.

Said he didn't know how to make me feel likeI/wearemore important. I gavehim somevery easy to implement ways.

Throughout the whole conversation, I was really sad. Because I was thinking about some of the stuff you said, and I was wondering, 'holy crap, if this never gets better, can I leave? am I strong enough?' I think before, all these things made me so unhappy but I never really was determined enough to fix them, and instead of leaving I choose the other route and let someone else meet my ENs.... frown I think it made it a lot easier to cheat b/c we were so disconnected, and I didn't really see much good in him/us at all.

I certainly am not going to be cheating my way out of this, but I realized last night, I'm totally not ready to leave. Not only do I not think it's really fair at this point, I can't. I'm totally in love with him, and all I want is for me/us to be first priority. I have to give him some time to try. I don't plan on keeping my mouth shut and walking on eggshells, but I also can't seriously entertain the thought of leaving right now.

KERALA-I know you didn't mean to make me sad. I think he sometimes lacks direction on how to show it...so I'm helping him. I can't really expect him to read my mind.


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NG...I must've been really tired last night when I read your post before I went to bed, b/c I was so confused. Makes more sense this morning...

Okay, your intellectual excercise. I would say yes, they line up close to the same from before the event that we agree never happened. Yes, he's always wanted me to be 'better/stronger/faster'. I think what has changed mostly, is me. While I didn't feel as important to him as that stuff, it didn't bother me as much now because I didn't care if he went on trips away and we were apart. Because I had all my own IB I was doing like traveling, hanging out with friends, going to foreign countries to volunteer, etc.

In my mind, we were perfect for each other because we both could be super independent and do whatever we wanted and be fine. None of that 'relationship/marriage crap tying us down'. I honestly thought it would be no big deal moving away to go to grad school. B/c I was independent, no biggie. Imagine my surprise when I missed him and I felt our relationship going down the tubes. That's when I started really changing and insisting on more 'Me/us-time' and less "activity" time.

So I don't know if I married him with the expectation he would change...maybe grow up a little bit, but not necesarily change. I just didn't expect myself to change so much. So your little proverb is right....Man marry woman hoping she will endure, and she changes. So I guess it's my fault.

As for the fitness issue, yes- your inference is correct. Me being much more cardiovasculary in shape wouldn't do a TON for the way I look. Yeah, maybe it would get rid of all my cellulite, and maybe then I'd have a nicely define 8 pack instead of a somewhat defined 6pack, and maybe I'd wear a smaller size pants. But I don't want to live my life striving to look like a model (and I don't think H wants me to). He's not stupid and wouldn't turn his nose up at me if I looked like an athletic model, but he's more interested in the sweating/straining part....the better shape I am in, the more places we can go (assuming I want to go all these places), and harder stuff we can do. RC is his #1 EN. He says he would rather hang out with me than his friends, meaning, he would rather go climbing/biking/etc with me than his friends, but for him to really enjoy himself (b/c I'm not enough), I need to be faster and better so he can be challenged. He would not necessarily rather hang out with me if it meant sitting on the couch talking....

The thing is, it's not that I don't want to do all those things. I like rock and ice climbing. I like back country skiing. I like mtn biking. I did all that stuff by myself before I even met him. I just don't like it as much as he does, and am not as good at it. I can get competitive and get into stuff sometimes, but all his continued stated expectations have worn me down to the point of not making it enjoyable at all for me.

The ironic thing is, if we got divorced, I'd keep doing all of that stuff...by myself. Or with someone who was content to let me go at my own pace and not push me to be so much more hardcore.


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STILL_SEEKING-

Thanks for your words of advice/encouragement. You're right about the taking time thing. I do think I need to be more vocal about MB and sticking to the plan. I've been trying, but he doesn't seem to listen until he knows I'm serious. I know I can't change him. I just keep trying to keep the changes I've made in myself. As for your comment about the 'mtn biking harder and faster, climbing 14D and his life being wasted' you are spot on. I know he would never be happy in a location where he couldn't do those things. That's why he wouldn't move with me for school after we got married, b/c the place I was going to school "didn't have any mountains".

last week when we were going through all these issues (again), it was the first time I really regretted marrying him. I had questioned a bunch if it was the right choice, but I actually regretted not taking more time to work out all the issues I may (or may not have) forsaw. I know he has plenty of reasons for regretting marrying me. And as I said above, I'm the one whose changed opinionsof thewaythingsshould be.

But that doesn't mean I want it to end. I stillwant usto work,and I stillhavehope(usually at least). I don't want him to give up all his stuff totally. I just want him to put us first. And once he puts enough time into us, then he can do whatever dangerous thing he wants to do with his friends.

As for the ice cream question- I think I'd pick vanilla. My dad always gets vanilla. you can always count on vanilla. I think I was going for superman with bubblegum before.


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Oh- on the phone-snooping side of things. Last night he got home from work, and he was looking at his phone, and so I put out my hand and handed it to me, and I was asking him if that girl he worked with texted him again (thinking in my head, of course not), but he told me that she did, but he didn't erase it. So I looked at it, and it was a stupid text about bacon and how she thought of him, etc.... I erased it. And was not happy.

So then I asked very detailed questions about work. He tells me he's not attracted to her at all (and I say, yeah, you're not attracted to her until you ARE attracted to her, and then you won't be telling me about it). And we had a conversation about why it's important not to talk about personal stuff b/c that's how A's start, etc. I told him, "you may not be attracted to her, I believe you- but I can guaruntee you that she is attracted to you- for all the same reasons I'm attracted to you. You're hot and a really cool guy. If she didn't feel anything, she wouldn't be texting you"

Thankfully they only have a few days left this month, and then next month he's flying with a guy. As he (and I) said, unfortunately, more and more women are becoming pilots now a days. Thankfully- it's pretty rare that he has to fly with girls.

As for the girl- what is he supposed to do besides not resond and delete the number?


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Originally Posted by DoroM
As for the girl- what is he supposed to do besides not resond and delete the number?

You could always call her and ask her what the eff she is doing texting your husband. Adding, before you hang up on her, that she'd better back the hell off or she'll be in for a world of trouble.

Just a thought smile


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Originally Posted by DoroM
INDIE-Despite my best efforts to NOT say anything, we did talk a little bit last night. I asked him if he loved me more than climbing, and he said "I think so". .


Yeah, I think it's a lovebank issue. He just needs more filling up of the LB. He should understand though that he has time. He has time in which you will continue to fill up his lovebank before he gets on board with recovery. There is no other way. You cant be sidelined forever.

Originally Posted by DoroM
He also got frustrated and defensive, saying this was "futile" and he was "tired" of going round and round about the same thing. I asked if he was tired of me wanting myself/our marriage to be first and he said yeah.

Said he didn't know how to make me feel likeI/wearemore important. I gavehim somevery easy to implement ways.


Great work!

Originally Posted by DoroM
While I didn't feel as important to him as that stuff, it didn't bother me as much now because I didn't care if he went on trips away and we were apart. Because I had all my own IB I was doing like traveling, hanging out with friends, going to foreign countries to volunteer, etc..


This was my marriage too! I was so freakin independent. I didn't have to bother with POJA I just let it all slide. It's pure laziness. Dr H says that if you have a very independent marriage, POJA is a really painful stretch of the negotiation muscles at first. Because you have simply never done it before.

So it's normal for POJA to be tough at first. Normal. But you have to be as tough on the issue as you have been on your leg. You'll never scale the heights of recovery if you aren't determined here. You can POJA alone without your H while he's not keen. Of course you should not make him. Show him how its done for now by making sure you POJA everything you do.

Originally Posted by DoroM
I was thinking about some of the stuff you said, and I was wondering, 'holy crap, if this never gets better, can I leave? am I strong enough?' I think before, all these things made me so unhappy but I never really was determined enough to fix them, and instead of leaving I choose the other route and let someone else meet my ENs.... frown I think it made it a lot easier to cheat b/c we were so disconnected, and I didn't really see much good in him/us at all.

I certainly am not going to be cheating my way out of this, but I realized last night, I'm totally not ready to leave. Not only do I not think it's really fair at this point, I can't. I'm totally in love with him, and all I want is for me/us to be first priority. I have to give him some time to try. I don't plan on keeping my mouth shut and walking on eggshells, but I also can't seriously entertain the thought of leaving right now..


Well no one is advising you leave right NOW! He needs time and so do you. To learn. To prevent getting into that situation.

I was simply spelling out the future situation if nothing changes. You will have to leave and it is only fair you tell him so.

It's responsible to look to the future. No one likes getting overdraft warnings from the bank. But how much worse would it be if they didn't bother warning us?

I did mean to scare you. I wanted you to see the credit card bill before you began the spending spree. It's better that way.

This is what happens in irresponsible marriages: resentment mounts up, no one says anything, person snaps and leaves without warning.

Responsible marraiges say: 'I dont want to go anywhere but if this doesnt change, it's a serious situation up ahead.'

Warnings are responsible. especially if you are prepared to listen and respond to your side of things.

Which I think you are.



What would you do if you were not afraid?

"Fear is the little death. Fear is the mind-killer" Frank Herbert.

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You could always call her and ask her what the eff she is doing texting your husband. Adding, before you hang up on her, that she'd better back the hell off or she'll be in for a world of trouble.

NW, you, as always, are the soul of restraint and good manners.

I was going to go with: Using his phone, take a picture of the happy couple in an embrace, send it to her with an explanatory note about this is the married couple that her oh-so-coy actions are seeking to disrupt, and then continue with a version of the "No Trespassing!" warning. In a friendly gesture, you could give her the "Ashley Madison" website, since if she wants to BE a skank, she might as well take lessons! But that's just me, I guess....

(DM: I'm working on a longer response to your response to me.)

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This person is your H's coworker, correct? If so, then he needs to deal with it, not you. He can politely tell her that he'd prefer it if she didn't text him.

Don't send her rude texts. It will not get the point across, which is that YOUR H is totally uninterested in any kind of friendship with her and HE wants her to back off and keep it strictly professional.



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Yes, it'd be great if he'd deal with it and he should be the one to do it. The texts cross the line and it needs to be nipped in the bud.

But I wouldn't worry about being polite with someone that threatens my family.


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DoroM, what do you want to do about this?

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I would have to agree with kerala- if I'm the one texting/calling her and looking like a crazy, jealous person, all that tells her is I'm nuts and my husband is married to a jealous wife. It does not tell her my husband is not interested.

He's the one who has to deal with it. If he doesn't care too, then he doesn't care enough about us. That being said, I'm okay not doing anything right now. If she texted him again and was not related to an airplane or an engine failure or something, then I would say 3rd time is the charm (so to speak), and I would want him to say something to her. He's only got a few daysleft of this month working together, and I've even interrupted some of that with my well-timed surgery next week.... smile


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Are you kidding me? You've decided that passivity is the emotion you would use as the model to display to FBH your new commitment to fighting for your marriage???

...if I'm the one texting/calling her and looking like a crazy, jealous person...

Oh, yes, let's not LOOK like anything negative to a whore fishing for a husband - YOURS! Who the HELL cares what her opinion is of you? What is vitally important is that she understands what is your opinion of HER - a scheming, sneaky, can't-get-her-own-man temptress who wants to go "(w)heels-up" with your pilot-hubby!!!

And do you think, when she gets a text message from FBH's phone, sent with his approval, that she's going to recognize your handwriting? faint

Here's the message: "Co-worker, I think our ongoing texting is going beyond the limits of collegial communication. Before this goes any farther, I want to remind you that I'm married to DoroM, and would appreciate your keeping that in mind. Thanx."

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Originally Posted by NeverGuessed
Are you kidding me? You've decided that passivity is the emotion you would use as the model to display to FBH your new commitment to fighting for your marriage???

...if I'm the one texting/calling her and looking like a crazy, jealous person...

Oh, yes, let's not LOOK like anything negative to a whore fishing for a husband - YOURS! Who the HELL cares what her opinion is of you? What is vitally important is that she understands what is your opinion of HER - a scheming, sneaky, can't-get-her-own-man temptress who wants to go "(w)heels-up" with your pilot-hubby!!!

And do you think, when she gets a text message from FBH's phone, sent with his approval, that she's going to recognize your handwriting? faint

Here's the message: "Co-worker, I think our ongoing texting is going beyond the limits of collegial communication. Before this goes any farther, I want to remind you that I'm married to DoroM, and would appreciate your keeping that in mind. Thanx."

DoroM texting AS her H was not the focus of the previous posts. It's an interesting idea. Of course, it could backfire if he's not onboard.

The above wording is, actually, quite polite given that it is being sent to a "whore".

DoroM, are you quite sure your H has never texted her in a casual/friendly way? Just curious.


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I like the rule of three, Unwritten.

I have a married friend who told me of a good technique. If a woman texts her husband she responds 'oh hi, this is x's wife. I have his phone today, I pinch it off him all the time lol. If it's some kind of work emergency I can get hold of him. What is it about?'

This is for the first message, as it sends an 'We're tight, share phones so you won't have any secrets with my H'. She says that alone has worked the few times its happened.

Any follow up messages I would suggest the husband deal with in a 'puzzled why you are contacting me sort of way'. She gets in touch with something inane, like 'I had sushi today' and he returns with 'Is something wrong at work? I'm on a date with my wife right now'.

A third crossing of the line would earn her something along the lines of 'Hi Coworker, hope you are well but I don't like to get texts from coworkers when I'm at home unless its an emergency. My time with my wife is super important. Sure you understand'.

I really like the 'what the eff are you texting my spouse for' approach but it works better for men chasing off an OM, IMO.

Women are so subtle in the way we deal with each other. And its pretty much never overtly aggressive. Two women can have an entire conversation in subtext.

Any woman who came on that strong to a potential OW would seem worried about her marriage. I think the OW would smell blood and go after the weakness she sensed.

Of course the 'eff off' approach should be brought in if it gets past the rule of three.

Just my opinion.


What would you do if you were not afraid?

"Fear is the little death. Fear is the mind-killer" Frank Herbert.

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FWW/BW (me)
WH
2nd M for both
Blended Family with 7 kids between us
Too much hurt and pain on both sides that my brain hurts just thinking about it all.



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Just food for thought but I was working a job with a coworker who is young and single and has no clue about boundaries.

She sent a work text to our boss (engaged) and signed it with a kiss!!!!

He pinged a text right back saying: x? That's a bit unprofessional isn't it?

She thought this was hilarious and texted back xxxxxxxxLOL!

He just didn't bother replying. I was rather proud of him.


What would you do if you were not afraid?

"Fear is the little death. Fear is the mind-killer" Frank Herbert.

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It's an interesting idea. Of course, it could backfire if he's not onboard.

If he's NOT on board ("...sent with his approval...") then it's not sent that way.

Of course, his NOT getting on board would be worrisome....

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Love the rule of three, Indie.

I know that the bacon-text girl is the focus, but, really it's about the job as a whole isn't it. DoroM, he's a commercial pilot? As opposed to flying cargo planes? Because if so, man, the real issue is the EN-meeting that would go on in-person. We've all seen how flight crews interact with each other, flirt, joke etc.

Combined with his IB, that's definitely a longer-term issue that's got to be worked out. Because as much as DoroM can try and run them off individually, there are ten more waiting in the wings (pardon the pun).


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