Long story short (unimportant details have been changed to protect the innocent). I'm 29; WW is 26.

2008: Long period of unemployment and depression for me, BH.
7/2008: WW, wants a divorce after I get mad about something very petty. Separated. WW has an emotional fling (no in person contact) with an old friend, OM1, who lives a few hours away.
11/2008: Back together, after counselling and stuff.
7/2010: Accidentally find that the emotional fling has fired back up with OM2.
11/2010: Happens again, but pretty mild. (It's kind of the equivalent of men looking at pornography?)
7/2011: We've been foster parents to a newborn who's now been with us 10 months. The state begs us to adopt, and eventually we decided to. Then they change their mind at the last minute. Baby gets placed elsewhere. Obviously we're both grieved.
4/10/12: Wife tells me she wants a divorce.
5/8/12: Wife insists there's nobody else and we agree it would be best to wait until it's final on 11/20/12 before pursuing other romances.
6/10/12: I find out through supernatural means ("BH, your W is W with someone called OM2.") that she's having an emotional affair (or more) with someone of a specific name.
7/10/12: I finally confront her by simply telling her "I know about OM2. I'm going to hang up and pray for you." We have access to each other's texts and e-mails, but I would never break the trust between us by reading them. She assumes that's how I found out.

And recently, when I had to analyse our phone bill for some other reason:

2/3/12: Wife starts hour-long phone calls with OM2.
1/20/12: Wife says that's when she decided to ask for a divorce (but waited three months to do it), so OM2 isn't technically an affair.

OM2 is in emotional-affair territory (holding hands, a kiss), but as far as I know, that's it. I might be being lied to. My understanding is that these kind of emotional affairs are just as powerful (if not more so) than a physically intimate affair.

My question is simple: what are the odds on saving this marriage? My attitude towards my WW is one of being unconditionally loving (the frankness of this post hurts me and pains me as I spell this out). I'm willing to make this work.

I feel like the only person who can make this work is my WW now, and by choosing on her own to start displaying an entirely different set of behaviours.

How long have you been married?
What did you do on 11/2010?

We've been married since 2006; about 7 years.

On 11/2010, we argued on the phone after I found some communication with OM1, and her solution was to be separated. I was out of town at the time, and by the time I was back in town, she had decided not to do that. As far as know, everything with OM1 was over after that.

Welcome and sorry for your pain that has brought you here.

Are any of these OM married? How is she meeting them?

Here is some good reading.

Exposure 101
A Thread to Help Newly Betrayed Spouses

OM2 is not married. He's basically a mini-me. (I guess that's common?)

The fora for meeting these people is that she's discovered she has enough musical and vocal talent to regularly play in various bars, nightclubs, and restaurants around town. She used to be in a band (which is how it got started) and works as a bartender sometimes at one of them, although the band is down to just her and OM2 these days.

Exposure has already kind of accidentally happened, which is pretty much how I ended up here reading about it.

I'm not quite sure if I'm ready to do the full blown Exposure 101. Maybe it's a sign that I've lost some of my willingness to make it work. It just seems like a big hit to my reputation to blast that far and wide. (Is your willingness to do Exposure a test of how much you actually love your WS?)

BH 29 WW 26
1st M for both
D-day 7/19/12, OM2 27, unmarried
DV-day 11/20/12, WW put plan D into effect 4/10/12
No kids, and no plan A/B yet.

Your wife has terrible boundaries.
In order for your marriage to recover she would need to end her affairs, quit her job and probably move out of state.

Since you don't have kids you may be better off just divorcing her.
What do you want to do?

Qoheleth, my best advice would be to give her a list of conditions of your requirements to stay in the marriage. If she meets them, fine. If not, then you would be better off divorcing. That is the only possible way to make this work. If she doesn't comply with your conditions, you will be better off divorced.

If you stay married to her as she is, you will be condemned to a death of a thousand cuts. You will have short term pain and long term pain. If you get out, you will have short term pain and long term GAIN, because you will have an opportunity to find a suitable wife who meets your needs and is faithful. You won't have that opportunity if you are stuck in a horrible marriage with her.


I wanted to address this comment because it is very wrongheaded. Since she is your wife, you have a RIGHT and need to know every thing she says and does. What she does affects you directly. You should be trusted to look at every damn thing she does and says. NO ONE has the right to privacy to destroy her spouse behind his back.

There is absolutely NO VIRTUE in not snooping, because in doing so, you cause harm to yourself and your marriage. If you had been snooping all this time, you might have very well learned about her affairs early on and been able to stop them. A caring husband should be trusted to snoop. That is a good thing, not a bad thing.

I would lay out your conditions in an email so she has it in writing. She will probably laugh and say she has no intention of getting back together anyway, but that is ok. She will have it if/when she decides she wants to get back together. Right now, she thinks you have no conditions.


Explain to her that you want to have a romantic, loving, SAFE marriage and that you won�t stay in a loveless marriage with someone who lies and cheats. Tell her you are willing to give her an opportunity to earn your forgiveness. In order for the marriage to recover, certain things have to happen. This is what it will take to keep you interested:

1. end all contact with the OM for life

2. no more nights apart or going out without each other - create a healthy, integrated lifestyle

3. complete transparency - cell phone passwords, etc

4. no more opposite sex friendships

5. complete honesty about her affair<s> � passing a polygraph

6. commit to the Marriage Builders program for recovery as outlined in the book Surviving an Affair.

Tell her "this is what it will take to keep me in this marriage."

Whether your marriage ends up with success or failure will depend almost entirely on her willingness and ability to make radical changes. Her lifestyle must become absolutely transparent, holding nothing back. She is in no position to negotiate when it comes to extraordinary precautions, because those precautions are designed to prevent another affair and help you feel safe. She must also meet your emotional needs in a way that until now she has failed. Unless she makes a 180 degree turn in her approach to what it means to be a wife, your marriage won't recover, it will be a crippled version of your pre-affair marriage.

You have nothing to lose and everything to gain by taking this approach, because if she won't do these things, you will have lost nothing except a loveless, abusive marriage.

She quit her job in 2009, I got a new job, and we moved 2,000 miles away. It didn't work (new emotional affair happened with someone 2,000 miles away). Circumstances were such we moved back in 2011.

Divorce already has all final filings (she chose to file first) and, in theory, will be final around 12/31/12. We reached our divorce settlement agreement ourselves and both are satisfied what we agreed to. Assets are properly titled, and we'll legally and financially be completely out of each other's lives.

Her attitude started with "I'm sorry I hurt you"; lately's it's been "I'm sorry." Today she said, "I'm a selfish person. Selfish people shouldn't be married." I'm finding that I agree.

Since we're so far along, is there any utility in Exposure? It does seem to have come to light that surprisingly few people are aware that OM2's an emotional affair (or worse).


This is a radical concept for me. I'm awaiting Dr Hurley's books to show up in the mail to learn more about this. I've always thought it best for spouses to trust each other, and interpreted snooping on my wife as a sign of being abusive/a control freak.


I do have a question on this. Is this a two way street? In the event we're reconciled, do I need to give up my opposite-sex friendships? (I don't have a track record of infidelity in the slightest. But I'm learning that I know next to nothing about what a healthy marriage is.)

Read this.

Snooping: Is it the Right or Wrong thing to do in your Marriage?

Qoheleth,

Melodylane just gave you your next steps. That is what you need to do. Verbatim.

Just be thankful you and WW don't have kids.

She is acting very selfishly, that is true. But don't put too much stock in what she is saying. In fact, don't put any.

We call this fogbabble. Lies, justifications, gaslighting, and rewriting of history�All waywards say the same crap.

Yes sir -- although divorce right now is on autopilot, we're already separated, and she isn't interested in doing much of anything to reconcile right now. I'm eternally grateful we don't have kids, and that our adoption fell through last year. No kid should have to go through this.

My friends and family keep telling me that post-divorce, she'll come crawling back to me wanting to work things out. I should be finished reading Dr Hurley's books by then and fully intend to present MelodyLane's restrictions on any such "reunion".



So, in essence, there's no point in having a conversation at all, unless or until she wants to try to make things work -and- she agrees to what MelodyLane spelled out.

Got it.

How often do WWs come crawling back post-divorce? We currently evenly split $3,600 take-home pay a month, and per our divorce agreement, the last payment is on 12/1/12 of this year, unless she gets a job sooner. On 12/31/12 she's on her own (she's waived all spousal support forever in writing per California divorce law). My family and friends are paranoid that I'm going to voluntarily extend this arrangement, or that she'll move back in and we'll be in some kind of weird cohabiting situation.

We don't really have any reason, business or personal, that we must spend any time together again.

You guys are awesome. ML, I sent her this e-mail. And I guess this is it, eh?

Subject: Personal: Our marriage

Dear WW,

I want to have a romantic, loving, and safe marriage with you. I won't stay in a loveless marriage with someone who lies and cheats.

I would like to give you an opportunity to earn my trust. I forgive you, but I don't trust you. In order for our marriage to recover, certain things to happen. This is what it will take to keep me interested:

1. End all contact with OM2, OM1, and any other affair partners, emotional or otherwise, for life.

2. No more nights apart or going out with each other. Instead, create a healthy integrated lifestyle.

3. Complete transparency: share cell phones, texts, passwords, Facebook, etc.

4. No more opposite sex friendships.

5. Complete honesty about your affairs, emotional or otherwise (pass a polygraph)

6. Commit to a program like Marriage Builders for recovery as outlined in Dr. Hurley's book, "Surviving an Affair". If you would like a copy, I can get you one.

This is what it will take to keep me in this marriage.

Love,
BH

I understand completely. Our culture teaches us this nonsense and we accept it without question. As Harley says: "Lack of trust does not make spouses paranoid and miserable, it makes their marriages safe. " It is not a lack of trust that ruins marriages, but a lack of boundaries. If you had been snooping the whole time and you both practiced complete transparency, her affairs would have never taken place.

The idea that "trust" is important to a marriage is an urban myth that people just parrot without really thinking it through. It is too much "trust" that leads to affairs and ruins marriages.

here

here


Yes, opposite sex friendships are dangerous to marriages. That is how affairs begin. IT is just a good practice in marriage.

And yes, I would expose your wife's affair to everyone.

Q, have you told your parents about all this?

You did good!! Now the ball is in her court. You win either way this goes. If she meets your conditions you will have a great marriage. If she doesn't, you will be free to move on. Good job!

And she may scoff at this email, but she won't be scoffing when she wants to come back. It will serve as her roadmap back to you. You have raised the price of admission into a marriage with you.

Once again, you guys are awesome. I'll be back next year to let you know how it goes.


This still rings the alarm bells of being a creepy abusive jealous husband. What's the deal with listing "He always wants to know where you are" in the checklist of signs you might be in an abusive relationship? It's a a radical shift in thinking for me because I've spent years as a foster parent and undergoing training there to recognise abusive people.


When's the right time to cut the cord? I don't feel these relationships are harmful to me right now, and I'll be divorced in four months--and I'm never letting any romance happen with me and someone else when I'm legally married, no matter how dead the M is.

But I'm open to hearing I'm wrong!


Is there any reason to do this at this point? I just plain don't feel like going to the trouble. If she wants to reconcile, well, she can broadcast it high and wide. I'm honestly exhausted and feel like I've expended enough on this in the last 7 months.

I'm open to hearing how I'm wrong. If it will do her good (and is something other than an act of revenge), I'll do it. I'm completely uninterested in revenge. Losing me as a husband is plenty of revenge. Don't want any more of it.


Yes, my parents, and WW's mother, know. My mother-in-law's attitude is "Only prayer will change WW." My parents' attitude is that they want things with me and WW to be 100% over.

Just think how creepy and bizarre that very notion is. It is creepy to commit affairs, lie and cheat. It is not creepy to CATCH someone doing this. As a husband and wife you have a right to know absolutely everything your spouse does because it affects you directly.

It is "abusive" to have an affair. It is abusive to lie and cheat. It is not abusive to snoop and catch her doing so. Can you imagine calling the police "creepy" for spying on drug dealers?

And if a spouse is being completely open and honest, you wouldn't need to snoop. Any spouse that would object to you looking at her email, texts, etc, should set off your red flags, because people who have nothing to hide, don't hide.

For example, would you care if your wife looked at your emails? I would welcome it!


You are probably going to be single soon enough anyway, but I would caution you about getting too close to any females right now. You are probably very vulnerable to an affair and don't need another person in the mix.


I would just make sure her family, your family and close friends know. Otherwise she will be free to lie about you. You don't want her telling tales about you for the next 20 years.


Yes, my parents, and WW's mother, know. My mother-in-law's attitude is "Only prayer will change WW." My parents' attitude is that they want things with me and WW to be 100% over. [/quote]

I figured that's what your momma wanted. She will be a great ally to you. I hope you show her this thread and tell her you have a PLAN. It makes us parents SICK when our kids are being harmed. I would give this same advice to my own 29 year old son.