No, I know this guy, have met his wife and family, they are good people. His is def. not a OM.

She already thinks I had her followed last Saturday though, so that was good.

Just went to pick up DD from school and met with WW to go to farmers market to have lunch. All was pretty much normal, but sitting there eating with her, got me thinking bad thoughts, and she could tell, even though I wasn't doing or saying anything either my body language or energy made it obvious. Then she had the nerve to be mad at me for being mad/bothered about "that" which we both know it was about. (if that makes any sense.)

How could you be mad at me for being mad at you for doing what you did to me!?

Tips on accomplishing this? Without asking her directly, or doing Harley's questionaire, which I doubt highly that she would do right now.

I think he was just there to listen when she started telling him how "troubled" our marriage was. Started dropping compliments and such. Then, that "sparkley" feeling (from new relationships) happened and she wondered why she doesn't get the feeling from us any more. I immediately told her because that only happens in a new relationship, which you are in. This was 3-4 weeks ago on D-day.

Decipher me this: Maybe a week or two before D-day, she initiated another of the "this isn't working, I'm not happy, you don't love me" conversations. I got pissed and said fine, if you don't want to be with me anymore fine. A couple days passed and we decided to work it out. She wondered why I wasn't going to fight for us. I told her I was just angry or whatever. But what really stuck in my mind, was when she said "even if cheated on you (sexually) you'd still give me a chance wouldn't you?"! My reply was no. Even though inside, I wasn't sure.

But why would she even say that? Is that her way of feeling ok about doing it. testing the waters so to speak knowing I'd still give her a chance? Why would one's W ask that?

It sounds like IC and admiration were what OM was meeting?

Then those sound like 2 of her top 5.

Rule #1 in Wayward Handbook: When confronted with something that you did, don't accept any blame. Deflect and turn it on the accuser.

Normally, I'd ignore it. It's pointless to ponder such ramblings. But, when she persists, it's best to call her out on such things and close the conversation: "I'm sorry you're upset that others know about your adultery, but your trying to start an argument over it isn't going to work with me. We'll talk later."

She's wanting you to actually fight for what you want. To care. Apparently, you gave the impression that you didn't give a damn about what she did...

BUT

...it's best to stop the investigation right there because she's wayward and will do or say anything to put all of this squarely on your shoulders. It's her mission, really, to look for opportunities to blame this on you.

Answering "no" to the sex question was the correct response...even though it's a completely asinine question to begin with.

She talks to this male co worker because she has extremely poor boundaries around the opposite sex. In fact she and him may be developing an emotional relationship. I would be very wary around this man

Many wayward spouses will entertain and encourage the concept of an "open marriage". For example, Newt Gingrichs ex wife went on national television and said he wanted an open marriage so he could have affairs.
Closer to home, my former wife also would drop hints that I should get a girlfriend (I thought she was joking). Then she actually proposed an open marriage and suggested I find a sex partner for sexual fulfillment. (I refused)

There is a poster that encouraged his wife to become a swinger.

This is COMMON regular wayward babble. That's why I mentioned newt. It doesn't matter if a wayward is President Bill Clinton or your local mailman or your wife. They all seem to act the same.

I know this is a difficult time. I've been there.
I survived it through prayer and MB forum.
I encourage you to act like you're on camera. Like the wife is an actor. Play your role.

Oh one thing that helped a lot for me was keeping a journal. Write down your feelings and think about them. Remember you don't have control over the actions of others. You can only control how YOU respond to them. Take the high road

So, some developments:

Today, when she got home from work, she started getting ready to cook dinner. She had mentioned wanting to go outside to get some sun for a bit. So I told her I would do the dinner if she wanted to go outside. She asked "why are you being so nice?" I didn't know how to respond properly, so I don't think I said anything.

So I started cooking dinner, and a few minutes later, I gave her a hug, she said
"what are you doing, well besides giving me a hug?"
"I just needed a hug"
"I love you, and I still hold hope for our marriage"
"But why, don't you, I thought you hated me?"

I explained that we all do things we regret, and I still believe we can save our marriage. Eventually, I will find forgivenss. She replied with something about so much hurt, and me not being there for her for so long, not helping her with her depression. Neglect basically. Which does have truth to it.

"I don't love you like that any more, I'm not IN LOVE with you anymore" "It's just not there" "Obviously, if I did what I've done then I don't love you right?"
"So did you do that just to push me away?"
"No, well maybe a little" "Doing that would definitely be a divorce maker wouldn't it?"
"There's reasons you did what you did, we can fix our marriage and make it better than it ever has been, but it's going to take work on both our parts"
"I'm done with relationships, I don't want to work on anything, I don't want a relationship, I just want to be me." "I told you I already felt this way long before this happened [POSOM]
"So you just want to go out and do anything that moves?" "Well you're already in a relationship, you're in TWO relationships now"
"No I'm not"
"Having sex with someone is a relationship"
"No"
"Going out on a date to the (place they went last saturday) is a date, that's a relationship"
"No, its not."

"I've been hurting for so long, I just don't feel it any more, I don't love you like that."
Finally, I said "well, I don't want to talk about this anymore, except to say, I love you, I love our family and regardless of what you say, I still hold hope for our marriage."

I think there was more, but unfortunately, I didn't have my recorder on me. So I had to do all that by memory. I'm sure I forgot some.

I know the obvious answer is this is fogbabble, but what if it's true. What if there were so many years of her hoping for me to meet her EN's that the bridge is burned now. She's given up hope on our marriage, doesn't want to work on it, thinks we'll be able to co-parent our DD and she'll be JUST FINE so long as we can do things together and be in the same room in a friendly manner.

And to top off the day, the emails I sent to her HR bounced back, still haven't been able to get a hold of POSOM assumed Mom. Her sister obviously hasn't said anything to her or me, though she may be waiting to do it in person. AFAIK, her parents haven't said anything to her, though on the way home, she was listening to a rather long voicemail which is unusual for her, even since all this S* has been going on, but she didn't say anything or react to whatever it was she was listening to.

So I spent the rest of the night, trying to remain calm, no LB's. Just before I went downstairs for the night(as she was going to bed (couch)) she was talking about putting up the canopy in our DD's room, and what bed we were going to get for her. Stuff that wouldn't be done if we are D'ing or even separating.

She already has a handful of things she can't forgive me for, I feel that exposure may just be one more to the list, and put the last nail in the marriage coffin. Then again, maybe I've got nothing else to lose at this point. She clearly has a hard time forgiving me for a handful of things she's resentful for that have happened the past few years.

And this just minutes ago, since she was texting right next to me for a good part of the night.
You been talking to him this whole time?
"Who, XXX, idiot?!" (XXX being a long time friend, not a OM)
Just asking you a question, don't have to call me names.
"You just assume sht. And even if I was, who cares."

It's S* like that last sentence that makes me want to just say F it, this aint worth it, pack up, and disappear. If I didn't have a DD, that's what I'd be doing right now.

This sucks. Any help here much appreciated. Thank you all again for being there. The last time I went through all this (XWW), I had nobody. At least this time I've got all you people who have done this already. Just can't believe someone who I knew loved me immensely and unconditionally, can now be so evil to me on top of the GREAT news she delivered 2 days ago even.

Should I not be asking anything about the A or POSOM? Now, later, not at all?

SO what's to say, that when the WW is confronted with people who I've exposed to, that she won't just do what she did to me, and convince them that she just doesn't love me anymore. And that she's doing what makes her happy. Since the people exposed to are already on her side since they her friends, that they won't just say, oh well maybe you're right. You have to be happy.

This question was asked about 2 months ago, when trouble started rearing it's ugly head. As I said, she started in with another one of her "I'm unhappy" talks, "this is working" to which I was tired of hearing, feeling (incorrectly) like I was doing all I could do considering her incessant bitchiness.

Trust me, she knows that her unspeakable act deeply affected me and she clearly knows that I give a damn. Though, doing Plan A, makes me feel like she see's me as a pushover. "geez, I can screw someone else and he still loves me." "I can walk all over this guy" Just feel like it doesn't put me in the best light.

There is a time to talk about the affair. Now Is not the time.
Now you need to stop talking about it.
Stop listening to her.
Get the exposure letter to the employer

Some toxic friends and family will say that. Some will support adultery.
Others will not.
The reason for exposure is that affairs thrive in the dark. (think of Bill Clinton and Monica Lewinski). When they are exposed and brought to light of day the fantasy of the affair quickly crumbles

Please just focus on following plan A.
Be polite ; no talking about the affair (she will bring it up on her own and when she does offer her a cookie. Affair talk withdrawals love bank

figured out why the emails bounce back. Receptionist who wrote down the HR email address made her "h" look like a "k".

Anyhow,

Should I add this line to the standard workplace exp. letter? Without it, the letter seems only to be a tattle-tale type of letter instead of a letter asking to help stop the affair.

I would not add the line. I would follow the template. It was developed by an atty and has been used numerous times.
You want the letter to stay focused on what affects the company - resources.
And it is tattle tale. Many company's have anonymous "tip lines" to report theft etc. there is nothing wrong with tattle tale

No, and we've all heard similar crap from WW's before.

The affair is the problem right now.

Get POS OM out of the way first.


"Well, I care, for starters and you're not going to be carrying on with this adultery right in front of me and [child's name]. You need to leave if you're going to be doing that!"

I'd really follow-up with her family re: exposure, telling them that she's texting all evening to her adultery partner right in front of you and the kids. Tell them that you both respect their opinions and really need your help in this, asking them to use their influence to get WW to stop the affair.

2little,

I'm glad you detailed the conversation you had with your wife last night. I hope I can help explain what's going on and some of the pitfalls you can avoid.

First of all, no more talk about the affair or your relationship (unless she is breaking no-contact and needs to be confronted). Deep relationship talk will only lead to the same circular discussion you had last night (i've fallen out of love, don't think it can be reclaimed, not interested in trying) and more blame shifting on you. Rewinding this same discussion over and over just leads to love bank withdrawals. If relationship talk comes up again, just repeat "I know we can build our marriage to stronger than ever," then change the topic. Don't try to convince her you have a plan, don't argue when she disagrees, and she will.

That being said, let me help sort out what she told you last night. First of all, don't be so quick to write everything off as "fog babble". What she said is 100% her perception of the situation and how she is feeling, so that perception is reality. She is deep within a state of withdrawal.

http://www.marriagebuilders.com/graphic/mbi3600_state.html

Withdrawal comes from years of not meeting each other's emotional needs and can become quite entrenched, especially when magnified by the blame shifting that accompanies an affair. In withdrawal, one or both spouses are completely cut off emotionally, see no hope of regaining love, and are not motivated to even try. Basically, the love bank is shut tight and is not even accepting deposits.

This kind of withdrawal is very difficult to break free from. This is why divorce rate is over 50% in the U.S. My ex-wife was in the exact same state, my fiancee' was also leading up to her divorce. Recovery cannot begin until this wall of withdrawal is either slowly pried open, or busted down.

That's the beauty of MB's, it is one of the few programs that gives you the tools to breach this wall. Even though her love bank is closed, a sustained and consistent meeting of her emotional needs, avoiding lovebusters, and 15+ hours of undivided attention will slowly erode this wall and her love balance will begin to build.

Other situations need some dynamite to blow the wall down. This dynamite is plan B, where the spouse gets a stark look at life without you and forces them to make a conscious choice to commit to recovery.

Sometimes the wall is too entrenched and never comes down. Dr. Harley claims a high success rate WHEN HIS PROGRAM IS FOLLOWED, but it takes two to make it happen and the program is typically not followed when one spouse is deep in withdrawal.

But, you cannot talk her out of withdrawal with reason and promises or by rehashing your past history.

My suggestions are in blue...

Do not bring up the affair or the other OM. Talking about it is Love Bank withdrawals for both of you. It also puts OM on her mind. You don't want her thinking about him, do you?

Do not engage in angry outbursts.

Do not try to reason with anything she says or use logic. Instead, focus on saying things that will meet one of her emotional needs. Be attentive to her emotional state. Talk about something that interests her. I spent an hour talking about tattoos two nights ago.

Finish the exposure as soon as possible. Do not talk to her about exposure one tiny bit, even if her friends/family get angry with you. Do not show her the messages they send you. Do not complain to her about her family's reaction.