Whatever issue either partner refuses to negotiate about is, in effect, more important than the offended spouse's feelings. This is offensive to one spouse, but sometimes it may be something that is "deal-with-able".

My wife and I have a similar situation regarding her church attendance: we are at an impasse on that issue, and I doubt we'll overcome it unless she or I have a giant change of heart regarding her religion. Which Dr. Harley has personally advised me to basically "leave alone"; if or when one of us wants to change, we'll initiate it without pressure from the spouse.

It may seem to be a show-stopper, but in reality many times this kind of issue -- as long as it's something which is not a massive risk to the marriage -- is "work-around-able". That is, if you work the rest of the program and put special emphasis on time together and de-emphasize the differences, you can remain deeply in love and committed to one another. Canonical examples of this kind of behavior are religious and political differences. Dr. Harley's own parents were of different political leanings from one another, but made it work by neither being an "activist" for their political cause. You can also make it work by either of the partners being "weak" on the issue (that's me; I am not an atheist evangelist) while the other is "strong". As long as neither of you insists that you are "right" and the other is "wrong" -- i.e. no disrespectful judgments -- you can make it work.

BIG GIANT CAVEAT FOLLOWS.

Refusal to disclose your location, schedule, or other information does not fall under the guidelines above. This is Independent Behavior and Dishonesty in a tight little bundle. Those two Love Busters create the conditions under which an affair can and WILL take place. In the case of religious and political differences, you can continue to be radically honest about your thoughts, plans, history, and activities, but be willing to soften the message -- avoid disrespectful judgments -- when discussing it. Refusal to talk about your whereabouts is a deal-breaker.

H had an A with a woman (that I counted as a friend) 18 years ago. I fact, our families were friends (kids the same age, etc). Our DD (she was just a toddler) and I caught them. OW is now our auto insurance agent. Lives just down the road. Maybe see her once/month or less. After learning about this all he!! broke loose. One thing I remember H saying after the affair was revealed is that the whole time it was happening all he could think was what would '19kl83' say.

Since that time we have had many ups and downs. Labor day weekend 2012 I caught him "cheating" again...looking at porn and dating web sites. This was the third time he has been caught...so he knows my feelings on the subject. Actually, it is his hiding it from me that bothers me the most!

As I mentioned before...work is H's main focus all the years we have been married. He owns his own company and it has always been a struggle to pay bills. He doesn't gamble, drink or spend money. All his income goes to pay bad debt. I do his books so I know this is true. He works very hard, we have just had a very hard time financially!

We saw a counselor for a short time after the A. Guess what?!? the counselor said we.....wait for it...needed to spend time w/ each other. He recomended that I take the kids and a picnic lunch to the job site. I did this numerous times only to have H running around the job site toget his hired men ready for the next phase of the job.

I have told H many times that I am on the bottom of his "totem pole" he always denies it. After a big blow up, like the Labor Day weekend one, things are better for a while (he pays more attention to me)then things start to back slide again. Every time we backslide I feel like I care even less to make our M work.

I found this website while searching for a counselor (that I didn't think would do much good and we couldn't afford anyway). I have ordered 2 of Dr H's books. Hope to read them to H. He always wants me to read, then recap it to him, but that method is just not as good.

I really feel if we could agree to 15 hrs UA, have our EN met, his EMT time wouldn't bother me. We "got into it" last night again about dedicating the time. I had a calculator out and asked him to do the math. How many hours in a week - subtract sleep, work, travel, time geting ready for the day, ect. He still doesn't think 15 hours is doable.

I would put aside the UA time because you have much more urgent issues to address. The first is his continued contact with his adultery partner. Staying in touch with her is the equivalence of a rape victim having to endure the presence of her rapist. The OW is your rapist so it is a great affront to have that skank in your life. It is also a huge risk to your marriage because the affair can start up again any time. It happened before and can happen again.

So that is the first big problem.

The second is his use of porn. It is not only disrespectful to you, but using porn can ruin your marriage by causing resentment and it can diminish his desire for you by creating a contrast effect.

So the first thing I would do is cut the skank out of your lives. Does your family know she is a skank? Has the affair been exposed to them so they will know to shut her out?


That was a complete and total waste of time. But your typical marriage counselor does not know that because they don't have the slightest idea how to create a romantic, fulfilling marriage. The missing link in your marriage is undivided attention time, NOT FAMILY TIME. Having more family time will not help your marriage.

That is because his marriage is not a priority to him. Everything else comes first because he doesn't care.

19, it sounds to me like your husband refuses to meet your needs. In these cases, Dr Harley recommends a separation. Here is a case study of a marriage that he saved using this tactic: When to Call It Quits - Part 1

Actually recovery from an A is more like 25 hours. 15 hours is basic maintainance.

He is intitled to his opinion. I would nod sagely (looking amazing) and tell him how he lives the rest of his life is up to him. That you would NEVER ask him to commit to doing something he doesn't want to do with all his heart.

Then I would ask him where he thinks he will end up living after the separation.

"Separation? But you just said I didn't have to do anything"?!! He chokes.

"Oh no, you don't. But recovery from your affair while you do nothing to heal me is just not 'doable', I fear".

If he wants to stay, hell do the actions required. NC with OW, transparency, recovery - the whole nine yards.

Anything less is death by a thousand cuts.

Why don't you Plan A him for a few weeks while you make plans for separation in Plan B?

Is there a webpage link to Plan A?

Thanks for sharing about the A you are recovering from. Are you saying that you found out about the A 18 years ago? Or am I reading that wrong? 18 years of limping along is a long time.

How is it that after all hell broke loose, she became your insurance agent???

When you say he is looking at dating websites. Does that mean he is ON dating websites? Is he looking for dates on dating websites? Is he looking to hook up on dating websites, such as craigs list ads? Whats the extent of this?

Dr H has some good articles on the use of pornography too, and why it is so damaging to marriages.

Here is Dr H explaining how to combine Plans A and B:

http://www.marriagebuilders.com/graphic/mbi8113_ab.html

Also read this thread complied by vets on how to do the 'carrot and stick of Plan A.

http://forum.marriagebuilders.com/ubbt/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=2400725

Plan A is a very tough, demanding exercise. It is one of the few times sacrifice is advised in MB, but only because it is a short term sacrifice.

Meeting all our spouses needs in Plan A and not getting anything in return is very sacrificial. Long term sacrifice is bad, especially for women.

That's why women are told to Plan A for a maximum of three weeks.

So you should get legal and financial advice lined up for a Plan B separation now. Dont tell your H about the plans or your timescales. Be clear he is headed for separation but do not tell him how/when it will happen.

You have already endured a lot for far too long. So make a commitment now to endure it for three weeks and no longer. Unfortunately, due to a lack of consequences, he now thinks he is home free and it has made him very entitled and lazy.

Do you have any snooping tools to check for resumption of the A? ongoing contact is a very bad sign

I missed this. I would make limited internet use a condition of recovery. Parental controls etc.

I would get a copy of Dr Harley's book SAA and read all the infidelity articles as soon as you can.

It sounds like you are dealing with a serial cheat. You need this knowledge urgently.

The plans will set you up for personal healing and a personal recovery if your H is not up to the job of recovery and healing you after being Plan A'd.

indiegirl: I agree with the 25 hours but that just isnt happening.

I am happy to report that I have been unknowingly following plan A. I am ready to step up my efforts.

We only have one computer and it is my laptop...i check history daily. H does not have personal email acct (just a business acct - which I monitor). He doesn't have facebook either. His cell phone is at my disposal every night. Anything else I need to monitor?

Thanks for the links...I am slowly reading thru them. Wish I had more time to read (to bad we have to WORK lol), but time conversing w/ H is more important and we discuss the things I read. I don't know how much he believes in MB.

unwritten and indiegirl: OW's middle son was our sons best friend (clssmates, sports, b-day parties) from almost the day they were born. OW is remarried now. I am the one who sees her about once a month not H.

unwritten: I didn't find any evidence of subscribing to a dating site...just looking. He has given me an explination for this behavior. Kinda wierd reasonings tho! Says he loves me and all the right things.

[quote=MelodyLane
The second is his use of porn. It is not only disrespectful to you, but using porn can ruin your marriage by causing resentment and it can diminish his desire for you by creating a contrast effect.

So the first thing I would do is cut the skank out of your lives. Does your family know she is a skank? Has the affair been exposed to them so they will know to shut her out?

That was a complete and total waste of time. But your typical marriage counselor does not know that because they don't have the slightest idea how to create a romantic, fulfilling marriage. The missing link in your marriage is undivided attention time, NOT FAMILY TIME. Having more family time will not help your marriage. [/quote]

I have been monitoring history on the only computer we have. So far so good. It has not dampened his desire for me. It certanly caused resentment in me. He has definalty heard that from me too. "looking at girls the age of his daughter" "looking at girls that I will never again look like". He says that I am very sexy for an almost 50 year old and has been apologetic for his behavior.

Our children know of the A...i'm not sure how much they know. My female family memebers and some of H's female family members (as some of the spouses) know of the A. OW has not been completely shut out by anyone.

In the counselors defence he wasn't refuring to ALL family time. Just stated that we needed time alone together as well as w/ family. The reason I mentioned the "picnic" incidents was to prove a point about him being a workaholic.

Additions to my previous post.
indiegirl: "I have been unknowingly following plan A" This is true during the time since Labor Day Weekend, NOT the time after the A. It appears I did EVERYTHING wrong according to Plan A 18 years ago when I discovered the A.

"I am ready to step up my efforts" I got sick Labor Day (intestinal crap) and now have a bad sore throat cold/cough. I first thought I had food poisoning but now I think all this is due to stress. I don't want this to be an excuse to not step up my efforts but, it sure has been a hamper to my progress.

Also, how do I make my repost quotes look precise like "you all's"

Plan A is temporary!!!!!

Three weeks MAXIMUM.

You refer to the imminent threat of separation throughout a SHORT plan A. DEMAND recovery conditions are fulfilled or he's out on his ear. Plan A without that, without a Plan B is just Plan Doormat.

Three weeks, then if full recovery conditions are not in place = Plan B. Up to two years in the plans in total and divorce him if he remains unrepentant at that two year point.



Then I suppose he will end up divorced and that will be some other womans problem.

But let's give him a chance in the plans first.

What have you done to prepare for Plan B in three weeks time?

Click on 'quick quote' and be careful not to delete any of the little brackets by pressing return. Without the brackets it doesn't appear right

I found out about the A 18 years ago. It was short a short lived A but I'm not sure how long it lasted. 18 years of limping along....staying because of the kids and staying because I do not have enough money to live on my own and also because I DO want this M to work.

After 18 years of him getting off with even basic care of you I'm surprised you have any affection left.

You must realise this approach isn't working?

After so long doing it that way, are you ready to go all in with MB?