You got it Cara..

The age of instant gratification, or addiction mentality, or the instant high...

It all fits into the wayward mentality, ans as you can certainly see, they are in love with the drug, and will die to protect it.."What drug are you talking about? I am in love!" Yeah lol with yourself.

I suggest a punching bag..

Yeah those people that "Don't want to judge" are refusing to make judgements, cause they don't want to be the bad guy, and want to avoid the conflict. Its too bad because unless you deal with it up front, it still comes in somehow eventually.

Just a freindly word of warning to you Indie since you are newly Divorced and also beacause you are pretty smart, but being newly Div still leaves you in that precarious place of being open to new relationships, to replace the loss from the last one..KWIM?

My late wife used to say to me, because I could see through people too, " I would never try to put something past you CP. you can see through most anybody, and they know it"..( I have been called a cop, a drill sgt., and military man many times because I don't buy much BS.)

It really is uncanny, because I have been in positions of supervisor or foreman since I was young ya know? Those that have required concentration and insight, and i could tell the way people acted if they were hiding something, like I could smell it.

When WW had one drink I could tell it just the way she talked and her attitude.

When I met people I could tell if they had a drug problem in 5 minutes of talking with them. Ussually I was right.

That power to see through people still didn't stop me from getting into a relationship that had problems way over my head.

Just be careful Indie that you don't get used to help someone who really doesn't want help. Of rescuing someone.

I doubt you will, but just had to mention it.

You are an MB success story, as Cara is too. We are all a work in progress

i don't know. i feel these people *are* judging, but in a passive-aggressive way. they are judging the BS, just not directly. when they say, "i'm not going to judge [the wayward(s)] they mean, "i'm judging you. you are obviously ...(fill in the blank with their fogbabble.)" they have a wayward mindset. at least their (purported lack of) judgement puts a flashing red light over them "avoid, avoid!"

I totally agree that most of the time this is the case..they indirectly blame the BS, without knowing any details...

Of course someone who is really a friend, would scamper to come to their aid, and find out what was going on, would take the time to find out..if they were a freind.. but most of them are not.

Lol its like being set on fire, and telling a friend about it, and then they say they can't help, because they don't want to judge what they did to be set on fire. They just dont find it important enough, and as you know.."People are being set on fire every day"...


Yeah with friends like them who needs enemys. Just thought of Bill Enghrams "heres your sign"

Thanks Letty... wow, I have never been to WA and have my heart set on going... my international travels keep getting in the way though

Thanks for the well wishes.

I love how when I pop back in to MB there can be a discussion taking place that so captures my own experiences.

I agree with Letty wholeheartedly. I too have felt that many of those who don't "judge" are siding with the wayward, and / or blaming the betrayed. Some of these I consider are either wayward or on their way due to their thinking. But others... I think many just don't want to believe a betrayed could not have "deserved" it, since then it leaves the door open that maybe it could happen to them. It is just easier to blame the betrayed, rather than evaluating the flaws (lovebusters and lack of meeting EN's) in their own marriages.

Then there are also the family members of the wayward who don't want to accept their relative is a lowlife cheating scumbag. So they choose to enable instead, and blame the betrayed, or worse, use fodder such as "some marriages just don't work out" (yep, sadly I heard this on the grapevine from one SIL). No mention of the brother having an A.

My real friends have scampered to my aid. They have never once doubted my version of events. They have helped me sift through the fog, the wayward lies, and my betrayed denial. And most of them, having seen my pain and Gollum's entitlement and lack of remorse, have cut ties with him.

But I also wish for accountability / condemnation, just as Jen does. Thankfully, as time goes on, I wish for it less and less. I think because I see that karma will come, and maybe already is on its way. I have the world at my feet, and Gollum is trapped with a skank and OC.

I was watching an interview with Arnold Schwarzenegger last night. About his A. I was arguing with the screen, and my father was agreeing as I cut through the wayward BS. The interviewed questioned about how he had known about the OC and when his BW asked if he was his son and he LIED... "well, if thats what you want to call it" or some such. WTH??? What else do you call LYING???

Interesting to witness a wayward still wayward, still lying and still blameshifting.

Yeah reminds me of Clinton when he said.." That depends on what your definition of the word "is" is..

Geez bill, at least admit it

What do you expect lol, he was serial cheater from way back in the days of Jessica flowers..

And the sad fact is, that it probably helped him get elected. I know his Monica escapades helped block the public view on what was happening in the govt

People were just to busy with the details of the pizza party he had to pat attention to that little detail of govt... Rules and regulations, lying to the supreme court, stuff that should get you impeached by the law.." Oh wait this just in about Monica and the president" Oh I think I will watch this now on my lunch break, instead of what is going on lol

Yeah he was compared to JFK, and rightly so, cuz JFK was also a playboy in college brought in as the new shining boy by his Dad when his other son died.

Don't get me wrong, I liked some of what JFK did, but he crossed the line and was quickly assassinated when he started talking about pulling out of the national bank system and america printing there own money.... Let's see...others who have talked off that...Nixon... Abraham Lincoln... Go along to get along or get shot? Ok I'll take the impeachment. And the badreputation.

Waywards come in all shapes and sizes, and the public is entranced with them.

The BS is staggering
I hear there is a website dedicated to this phenomena , any lurkers out there wanna put there two cents in?

Not to pick on Pres Clinton to much, but why not just say he would prefer other drugs to pot, like the ever popular cocaine and of course booze, fastly becoming the go-to drugs of washington....Ask Mayor Barry.. elected again AFTER he was convicted of being a crackhead?

Instaed he says he didnt inhale?

Geez he woulda done better to say he didnt like drugs just sex and power and control?

Nah wait..can't say that..that leaves no place for the american public to go to be like the royalty that he wants the presidency to be.. Gotta keep up the image

Ok maybe I should stop cuz Big brother might come to my front door. Lol nobody would miss me and it could all be explained in the paperwork. ROFLMAO.

fear, power, and control.. whatever way you slice it.. its the basic stimulus for all the BS in the world, and the Wayward mindset fits right in there. The Big Babys

Yes thats what this place is about too Cara, to bring in reality and show BSs that it is all about the human condition, and it is so common in todays world.

You sound good Im glad

How funny you should say so, I'm certainly aggressive with the punching bags at Taekwondo, often leaving with bruised or bloody hands and feet!

Caracel and Letty, I think you're right about these people passive aggressively judging the BS. But I haven't figured a good way around that. I'll keep thinkin' on it.

Yeah martial arts is a great way to focus aggression and release those emotions.

I remember way back when, when some teacher showed me the firehose technique in martial arts, and how what you think and care about, can give you strength...

he said "Put your arm out straight and hold it there as much as you can without letting me bend it"

Then he braced himself and pulled down at my elbow till he bent it

Then he said,"Now imagine your arm is a firehose and it is full of water spraying a fire that is threatening your children, and if it gets bent your children will get burned" When he tryed to bend it this time he couldn't.

The mind is itself an awesome weapon, and the meditation and quieting of that practice is also very helpful, linked with the physical discipline.

I understand the bloody feet and hands too, lol good thing the wayward is not in front of you lol.

Miss that peace I found in meditation..it takes time and practice to master, but is the best peace I have ever experienced..the quieting of the thoughts that run through our heads..most of them are useless worry, and in meditation you let them go, and you can see them too, the useless worry thoughts.

Give them a sign..because after you talk to them, and they remain the same with thier wimpy no-backbone stand they take..(should we say No stand stand?)Yeah slight of hand?.. it out of your hands and the best you can do is avoid them, and know, they will have thier day, and you don't want to be anywhere around them when they do. The Good book says not to argue with fools, or you become as foolish as they. Mark twain says they will beat you with experience. There is no way around it, There are none so blind as those who will not see.

Yeah they need a sign

Oh I have thought this aspect through also. I really don't want a relationship yet. The last year, just me being me is great for now and giving that up, and jumping into anything would be nuts.

And I can't think of anything worse than a man who needs my help! When I'm ready I deserve to be spoiled by someone who's got his act together. Lots of em! No danger of me being a KISA there.

Hey caracal....how are things going?

Yes, have been thinking about you.

Hi Logan and BH, thanks for thinking of me!

I got back from China at 4am this morning after a flight delay, and dragged my very reluctant butt into work. Thankfully, my boss was understanding when I showed up at 10am.

An update... the date of my 13th wedding anniversary passed. Gollum gave me a gift. A solicitor's letter, advising that as he had a one-month old child this should be considered in the property settlement. Meaning he should not exchange any money with me. He is also seeking travel keepsakes and household items.

China was absolutely fab. I am very very lucky to have been able to share this with my mum. Treasured memories I will never forget. I hope she enjoyed it as much as I did. I think she did, although we are both exhausted!

I also had some important moments on the trip. I have always been into travel and photography, and H was my passionate supporter. I took my mum off on an independent jaunt for three nights before joining a tour, navigating China's rail system. I also lugged my tripod and set off for twilight shots whilst my mother was resting in the hotel. I'll forget about the blisters, but the memorable shot I took whilst a Chinese man took pics of me... that I will enjoy for life.

I walked the Great Wall. During my marriage, I relied heavily on H for this sort of thing. This trip, I supported my mother to climb what she could, relishing the look on her face. Then I continued on solo. I enjoyed putting one foot in front of the other, passing the crowds, until they thinned out drastically at one checkpoint and it was pretty much just me and the wall and the occasional determined tourist. At one point, puffed, with thigh muscles aching, I thought, after the last year, I can do anything. I carried on. It was only the time limit due to the tour that made me turn back.

I bought myself a jade bangle to celebrate and remember this day. To the Chinese, jade symbolises loyalty, justice, sincerity, intelligence and truth. I already cherish the bangle and have not taken it off since the jeweller placed it on my wrist.

There was a male who presented himself to me as single on the tour, although I had reservations about this. My boundaries remain high, although they are now high for preservation of myself, and not out of loyalty to Gollum. I am no longer loyal to Gollum... just loyal to the vows I made and what I believe in.

I expect the divorce will be final in November. I want to be free of him, because part of me still hovers because of who he was and the vows I made. The OC has caused me a lot of angst lately... as has the travelling. Memories were triggered majorly in parts. ALL of our travelling took place together. I have been to 60+ countries, and most with him. So going solo to China was a leap for me.

I loved it. Despite the triggers. My feet are finally itchy again. I loved taking photos again.

My life is good. I am slowly refinding who I was and uniting that with the new me.

High five Caracal!

You are working through all the emotions and situations pretty darn well. Tough stuff but you are getting through it all.

Makes me want to do a happy dance for you. You are coming through this as a shining star.

What a tool.



What a heroine!



How did you handle this? Always curious about others' methods