When I mentioned "plan" I was talking bout Dr Harley's specific plan....expose, NC incl letter, no LB's, fulfilling Love Deposits and all that.

H wants to make our marriage better than ever just like I do. Time and health are sooo against us right now.

Other than MB guidlines we don't have a plan.

The times that we have meet each others needs for RC, C and A the sex has come so easily! Then work (money) and health gets us down and these needs are not met and niether is SF.

One thing H said recently was he might not be able to give me foreplay as things in life get more stressfull. This hurt me but...I really feal the same way. When I'm depressed it is impossible for me to fulfill H EN and it is even hard for me to get mine fulfilled even when H tries. Does this last part even make sense? It's like I am "checked out".

We have talked about this "practice". Shopping just seems such an insignificant thing to us. I am allergic to shrimp but it is a Christmas Eve/New Years Eve tradition for our family anyway. I even fry them. I don't drink MD. H does. I drink tea he doesn't touch it. Maybe we have been married for so long that these small things are not an issue for us.

I've not been through the coaching, so I'm willing to be corrected! But as I understand it not every grocery item has to personally benefit you both. Razors, for example would be for him but you wouldn't mind the cost and would enjoy a handsome husband, no stubble rash..etc.

The shrimp sounds like you kinda enjoy the family atmosphere it creates so you would enthusiastically sign up for that one .

I think its more not letting stuff by that does bother one of you. For example, a vegetarian doesn't mind her meat loving hubby having SOME meat but she thinks the amount is ridiculous and hates the expense. So they have to POJA a solution that works for them both.

Yes, this is supposed to be the idea, actually. To practice on small, insignificant things. You have to practice in order to build a habit.

So you go into the store, and you pick up the insignificant can of mushroom soup, and say "How would you feel about getting this can of mushroom soup?" And he says "I don't like mushroom soup." And then you negotiate an alternative.

Well we can try the store senerio. I dont want to sound negative to advise. I just don't think there is any conflicts (at all) in our grocery shopping. H needs a new cell phone. He wants the cheepest one. Not only because it is the cheepest but also because it is a flip phone and has less chance of a broken screen. How can I get enthusiastic over a flippen phone. I could add "its his money". But I know his and hers seperate money is not an MB practise.

Did you listen to these?

And these?

That is because people separate money because they can't POJA. They let each go their own way with spending to avoid doing the (seemingly impossible) work.

Which is crazy if you think about it. Half your money spent on things you don't agree with just to avoid a negotiation.



Well you don't have to be enthusiastic about it. Your H doesn't have to get it. That's the whole point of POJA.

Your last comment "its his money" sounds as if YOU wouldn't spend your money on that choice.

Do you think the cheap phone is a false economy? If so, it is YOUR money, and you should insist you BOTH choose a phone you like.

I hear a strong temptation on your part to just 'let him have it' cause its easier.

If you don't want it, that's not POJA to let it pass.

I want him to have a phone. The comment "it's his money" refers to it's the construction company's money.

Yes. I have listened to those radio shows. That is why I mentioned the shopping senerio. Thanks for posting it - I listened to it again.

Thinking about Joyce being unenthusiastic about sardines: They don't enthusiasticly agree (she hates the smell) so they don't buy them. Isn't that STILL a win/lose situation? Dr Harley just "lost" his sardines. To me Dr Harley is sacrificing, yet they say don't sacrific. Whay cant I understand the concept of POJA. I am begining to feel stupid!

In that situation, Dr. Harley should propose an alternative.

It's not POJA that's hard, per se. It's negotiating. POJA is what you do while you negotiate, while someone is still unsatisfied, to prevent resentment in the long term. After negotiation, you have a POJA solution that both are happy with: you find an alternative that both are enthusiastic about.

But you can't negotiate if you stop at just "I don't like it."

Crucially, if you are dealing with an emotional need (and you almost always are, whether you realize it or not), then even if you are on the "do nothing" side, you are going to want to find an alternative that both of you like, so that your spouse's need can be met (and you get credit for it - love bank deposits in your account in his love bank!).

Have you read about Type A and Type B resentment? Have you listened to the radio show from a couple months ago with Zhamila's husband? The one about negotiating getting the mail?

Have you read all of the letters in this?
Having Trouble with POJA

Here's the show with the notebook idea. The one markos was talking about with Zhamila's H.
Radio clip of POJA
Segment #2
Segment #3

Thanks, BH! I knew you'd be along to post that link.

You're welcome.

No, you aren't stupid. Takes practice

Dr Harley merely loses a lunch option when he loses the sardines. He doesn't lose in life, he doesn't lose emotionally, he doesnt even miss a nice lunch! He just loses one option out of many that will make him happy.

The first stage of POJA is to eliminate the option that makes one spouse unhappy. But you don't stop there.

Dr H and Joyce would then chose an option that he likes just as well as sardines but which Joyce is happier about.

If he chooses options that are as tasty, or tastier for him, and also eats across from a happy, smiling wife who isn't enduring an unpleasant smell, HE will have a better lunch experience too.

I LOVE pesto. Love, love, love it. I know that some people don't like the smell (crazy). If I had a spouse who disliked it, I'd be just as happy with carbonara and a happier spouse.

you practice on the "nothings," 19, so that when something big comes up, you've got some skills under your belt.

my H and i grocery shop together (always have). i might have "1 can tomatoes" on the list, but i see the shop has a special, 5 for $5. i might say, "how would you feel about getting the special, babe?" then he can counter, and we'll agree how many we'll get. or he might say, "5 for $5? we should get 5! (showing enthusiastic agreement)." it depends - that's the point of *learning* to poja. if i've only got one on the list, it doesn't really matter how many more we get, because the goal is learning to negotiate in a manner that is caring and considerate and can result in agreement. (i have actually done this, for real, with cheese! when parmigiano-reggiano is $25/100grams, you gotta negotiate!)

the trick is to get the language, which is kind and caring, down, so that when something big comes up, you don't default to "i'm getting a new phone this weekend," possibly resulting in: "what? what do you need a new phone for?" rather than, "how would you feel about me getting a new phone? telecom is having a sale." "a sale you say? how much would a new phone be?" and then you could discuss features and comparison shop, as maybe vodafone has the same one for $20 less. you feel valued, because your input has been considered, and thus is important. you are both more open to coming to an agreement, rather than settling, or worse, arguing.

it's learning to open a conversation about things. you can't learn on the big stuff. i mean, when you learned to drive, your mum or dad didn't just throw you in the car one day without warning and say, "follow that car!" right? they probably made sure you knew about the important parts of the car (pedals, indicators, etc), the road rules, and had you practice in a parking lot long before trying to drive through town. consider the grocery store (or some other, not really important place) your parking lot. you're practicing.