�Do Waywards deserve empathy?�

I believe waywards do deserve empathy. Recently I have been told by other posters on this site that �Waywards do not deserve empathy� and that me suggesting they do is misguided and contrary to Dr Harley�s approach to divorce busting and marriage building. I�m certainly not an expert nor do I claim to have it all figured out. I�m seeking a better understanding of this idea and correction of my position if needed.

Why does this question matter? IMO if we inappropriately suggest to Betrayeds that their WS do not deserve empathy then the betrayed is more likely to lovebust when dealing with the WS. They will be less effective in winning back the love and commitment of their WS.

My understanding of the word empathy is the ability to put one�s self in the place of another, to understand and appreciate and have compassion for another person�s motives and their perspective. I�ve read 8 of Dr Harley�s 15 books including surviving an affair. I�ve read every article on the MB website I know of. I personally see empathy for waywards all over in Harley�s writings.

The waywards I read about in his books are most often regular, decent people who spend years with their most important emotional needs going unmet in their marriage who succumb to the temptation of having those needs met by someone other than their spouse.

True that waywards can be cruel and selfish and their behavior can be incredibly damaging to everyone around them � but they deserve to be treated like human beings � human beings who have lost their �way,� but still human beings. That means we don�t judge them, we don�t insult them, we don�t treat them with any less dignity or respect than we would any other human being.

To me every person deserves empathy. Being a wayward doesn�t change that.

To be clear, I don�t believe in being soft on infidelity by any means. Affairs are toxic, selfish, poisonous, inexcusable and destructive. They must be exposed and eliminated. But the affair buster should maintain their civility. The affair is the enemy, not the wayward.

I�m interested in hearing from the SAA community and getting help understanding if I�m way off on this.

BWS =)

This type of philosophical discussion does not belong on the SAA forum so we are moving the thread to the Other Topics forum.

I would also caution you against telling other posters how to post. That is a surefire way to create unnecessary conflict on the board. Telling posters how to post is the domain of the moderators and not you. If you see a poster who is in violation of our TOS, kindly notify the moderators and allow us to handle it. That is our job, after all.

Thank you for your cooperation.

For myself, and I only speak for myself, I have no empathy for my WS.

Pity, yes.
Sadness for the path my WS chose, yes.
Sadness that my WS is emotionally AND physically unrecognizable, yes.
Sorrow for my childrens pain that my WS inflicted, yes.
I pray for my children.
I pray for myself.

I am in plan B/D.

Empathy for my WS, NO. I do pray for my WS.

FP - Thank you for moving this thread appropriately.

I am not trying to tell other posters how to post or generate conflict. I am sincerely trying to ensure my interpretation of Harley's material is consistent with the group's. I find I'm getting some consistently negative feedback and I'm seeking understanding.

The feedback has been polite and cordial (via MelodyLane and Markos) but I'm still not dissuaded from my view so I'm looking for more input.

Logan - thank you for your post. How do you define empathy? What is the difference between pity and empathy for you? What part of empathy are you unable/unwilling to achieve towards your wife? (Sincere questions, sensitive topic and I don't know your story.)

First, Dr Harley does not use the term "divorce busting". That is a term associated with a specific approach and it seems to me that you trying trying to merge it with MB as if it is the same thing. It is most certainly NOT.

No wonder you then spend so much time talking about "empathy". This is right in line with the DB approach of doing nothing directly to attack to attack the affair, and instead being "empathetic" towards it in the hope that the WS can be drawn back to the marriage without such an attack.

In fact, what anyone can see on boards that take the "empathy" approach is that the affair continues for a long time, becoming deeper and more entrenched, while the BS's heart is broken. Dr Harley recommends demanding that the affair end, and exposure, as methods to directly attack and shorten an affair. He does not recommend starting from the position of meeting unmet ENs. On the other thread where this post has its root, Dr Harley's position was outlined and quoted to you, and you did not address those points there and I doubt that re-quoting will help you understand the same points here.

I don't know where your points about lovebusting, judging, insulting and treating the WS "with any less dignity or respect" come from. They don't come from any advice that is giving here, and if they do and I am wrong, I would be grateful for your quoting a source.

All the advice given here by experienced posters stresses the importance of NOT lovebusting. We walk spouses through the difficulties of doing this. Have you read our threads on anger management? Have you read any Plan A threads? Have you seen the diligent work that posters put into helping BSs do a stellar plan A? Where in those threads do you see advice to insult WSs, or to treat them with less dignity or respect than they deserve? Please point me to one thread where BSs are advised to insult their WSs.

As for judging them: I don't understand why this is included in your complaints. There is surely nothing wrong with judging people on the basis of their behaviour. If we did not judge behaviours as either right or wrong, then there would be no problem with affairs, or theft, or violence or any other behaviour judged by civilised society to be wrong.

I haven't seen anywhere on these boards where "affair busters" (again not a term that Dr Harley uses) are encouraged to lose their civility.

In order for your accusations against posters to make sense, you need to provide instances of where you have seen advice that encourages ill-treatment of WSs. You can't just turn up and accuse those in the trenches of dishing out bad advice without evidence - so where is it?

Hi SugarCane � thanks for taking the time to post. Here is what I learned from your post.

You don�t care for the term �affair busting.� I thought it was a fairly accurate term for the stick part of plan a but I can see how you don�t like it.

You don�t agree with mixing methods and you especially don�t think the book �DivorceBusting� is compatible with MB. (I have read it and I agree with you. I didn�t care for it much.)

To you my use of the word empathy seems to imply coddling, permissiveness or tolerance for wayward behavior and affairs. This is great info for me because I mean nothing of the sort.

You seem to agree with me that while affairs should be attacked aggressively, waywards should not. BSs should remain civil and not lovebust (AOs, DJs etc) during the process of exposure of an affair. You also imply that posters on this board should not act in ways that would suggest or support lovebusting behavior towards their wayward spouses.

I have seemed to irk you a little with my post which is also useful information. I�d like to hear more about that if so.

You�ve asked me to provide evidence that other posters have acted inappropriately on this board. I�m choosing to keep this post about me and my understanding and communication of Harley principles.

Thanks for posting. I welcome any further input.

I actually had to specifically look up the exact definitions prior to answering you (the first time).

From wikipedia "empathy is the capacity to recognize the feelings that are being experience by another...". I am not empathetic because I will not recognize the feelings that a wayward has. The feelings that the alien/wayward is experiencing is morally wrong, caused damage to my children and myself. So why should I be empathetic to their feelings?

From wikipedia again "pity means feelings for others, particularly feelings of sadness and sorrow". I have much pity for my WH. He is a lost soul. He has not a clue the amount of devastation he has left in the wake of the choices he has made. I actually do feel pity. I see the train wreck of the life he has chosen. It is his to own. It saddens me that he may never come to own those choices and make the changes necessary for himself and that of his children. For the marriage, it is too late.

I hear you saying that you think Sugarcane is irked by your post(s) and wish she would give you more specifics as to why that is so.

I think, perhaps, you seem to overuse or lean upon the technique of "validation" and "active listening" a bit too much. I think it's annoying to those who don't communicate in the shallow end of bumper sticker pop psychology.

Then again...maybe the conflict or irking originates because Sugarcane is an INTJ and you present more as an ISTP and your "perceiver" is butting heads with her "thinker".

I tease you...but I, too, obviously am annoyed by "validation". Tell us YOUR opinion, DEFEND your stance or NOT...but don't reiterate what you HEAR Sugarcane saying and then ask her to clarify or add more after adding nothing substantive yourself.

Mr. W

BWS, I'm wondering if a better descriptor would be sympathy, as opposed to empathy.

From WiseGeek:


Let me give you an example. I have a childhood friend who lost her father about 15 years ago. As with any friend who deals with loss, you try to be there for them the best you can, and you feel sorrow for them...but 15 years ago, I could not possibly comprehend the depth of the grief I would feel at losing my own father. Now, I can put myself in her shoes. Instead of simply feeling sorrow for her loss, I feel the pain that she felt.

Feeling with instead of feeling for.

I can empathize with a remorseful wayward. I can feel with the feelings of remorse, shame, guilt, sorrow, the desperate need for forgiveness.

But I can't empathize - feel with the unrepentant wayward any more than a BS could. I can sympathize, yes. Pity, yes. And I can understand the feelings, having been wayward myself. But to me, empathizing would serve to validate the feelings of waywardness.

I don't post much these days. FTR, I did not receive sympathy or empathy from broken, and to be quite honest, deserve neither.

A few radio clips on empathy.
Radio Clip
Radio Clip
Radio Clip
Radio clip Segment #1
Radio clip Segment #2
Radio Clip

You recognised that your post irked me, and I will tell you more about why, since you actively listened and validated so nicely.

I think your post was passive-aggressive BS, and not even good passive-aggressive BS at that. It was an attempt, under the guise of "help me understand", to get back at those who pointed out your dangerous (to the BS) misconstruing of Dr H's advice, and the wilful selective summaries that you give of his position.

The thing is, Dr Harley has written and said a huge amount to update and sometimes even refute what he wrote in some of his earlier work - like his restriction to 3 weeks of Plan A for women. You won't find that in the current edition of Surviving an Affair, and neither will you find advice on exposure. Yet in Dr Harley's newsletters and advice on the private forum, and especially on the daily radio show, you will hear "demand an end to the affair", "Plan A for 3 weeks only" (for women), "poor boundaries are the cause of an affair" and especially, exposure, EXPOSURE - constantly.

And those are the "affair-busting" things that we advise, routinely and without exception. We never advise that a BS become uncivil or or that s/he lovebusts, so I don't know why you even raised those red herrings in your post. You did not "choose to keep this post about me and my understanding and communication of Harley principles", you passively-aggressively attacked other people's understanding and communicating of Harley principles, and now you refuse to defend what you implied.

And then you very nicely point out that you and I agree that uncivil things should not be done. Of course we do, and nobody here would disagree! Why are those points even raised by you? Who says that they should be done?

I think a discussion of Dr H's concepts is entirely a good thing and I wish there were more of it here, but you are right that I did not appreciate your way of trying to win your argument with MelodyLane and markos. If they have posted to you and you disagree with what they say, then say why and defend your position. It irks me that you created a caricature of "uncivil" BS behaviour and then refused to defend what you said when called out on it.

You're welcome!

BWS, I think Sugarcane has summarized your position quite nicely and like her, found no useful information in your post. It mostly consisted of your mythological, indefensible impressions of those of us who are doing the heavy lifting here.

You didn't substantiate a thing you said. Assertions that are made without substantiation can be dismissed on the same basis.

Just as you avoided answering mine and Markos's points on the other thread, you avoided answering Sugarcane's points. Just parroting back to her what she said does not defend your position. Nor does it further the discussion; it only irritates the responders. She knows what she said after all. Good grief...

I view these silly IMAGO tactics ["validation" "mirroring"] as a way to avoid defending your position. That is a waste of our time.

If you want to have a serious discussion, then knock off the bullcrap and shoot straight. Otherwise you are wasting valuable board time that could be devoted to helping others. I know I sure don't come here to educate posters who have been here for YEARS but are too lazy to educate themselves.

Most of us here responding to you have been through the MB course, listened to hundreds of hours of MBradio, met Dr Harley and have devoted years of our lives to helping others survive affairs. You have done none of that, so it is not a surprise that you have a very warped view of Marriage Builders and its practical application.

I felt with, and felt for my wife... even as a wayward. Maybe I'm weird, but I feel it's my job as a husband to do those things... yes, even at her worst.


Many of those wayward thoughts and feelings are known to all of us... some of them are limited to fewer of us.

Novelty is a strange cocktail of intoxicant and aphrodisiac that doesn't reveal it's true nature until submitted to - a double edged sword. After that, it really begins to spiral to a point which really shows the overlap between infidelity and addiction, which I will illustrate using the "Four C's of Addiction" here;

loss of Control over use

continued use despite of knowledge of harmful Consequences

Compulsion to use

Craving to use



Substitute "use" with "contact" and you have the full conversion. Then, you look at Pep's "anatomy of adultery" post, and the statements collected... and compare to the statements of addicts - which here I will edit to fit adultery - remember that these were originally about drugs or alcohol, but I will be changing them to reflect an AP;

�Every time I try to limit our meetings to only once a week, I end up seeing him every day.�

�I try to limit myself work-related conversations but once I start, I can�t seem to stop until we are sleeping together.�

"I know my affair caused my HIV but I can�t stop using.�

�I have to stop seeing her because my life is out of control, but she is the only option for me.�

�All I do is think about how I am going to score.�

The last two are so perfect, I will not alter them;

�No matter what I do, I can�t get drugs out of my mind and I feel I have to use and use a lot. Once I want to use, it is like I am on autopilot and I just have to use. I�ll do anything to get drugs.�

�It�s like a physical drive or urge to use. I want it from the pit of my stomach; I get sweaty just thinking about it. At times, these urges come out of nowhere, or I get them when I meet my using buddies, pass the corner where my dealer hangs out or am feeling down.�

BWS71,

I'm very good at empathizing.

I practiced empathy with my WW. In doing so, I internalized the feelings and thought processes necessary to: carry out long-standing deceit; recklessly pursue selfish goals and gratification; callously disregard the affect those selfish pursuits have on those closest to you; wager everyone's future on the ability to keep your selfishness a secret; aggressively gaslight all involved as the deceit begins to unravel; blame the messenger when the secrets are disclosed; continue to leave no stone unturned in avoiding responsibility, accountability, and consequences.

After thoroughly analyzing her motives and perspective, it is my painfully measured opinion that waywards do not deserve empathy. Any they receive is a gift -- plain and simple.

ITA with you, OWH.

The wayward brought everything on themselves. Anything good they get is a gift.

Oldwarhorse, I think your situation emphasizes an important point about empathy. Is it appropriate to empathize and show compassion to the rapist as he rapes his victim and shows no remorse? Or should it be done when he stops the rape and shows remorse and compassion for his own victim? I think we can all agree that it is inappropriate to show empathy and compassion for the former and appropriate to show it to the latter. Showing compassion for someone who is still committing the crime is a form of enabling that is not good for the perp.

However, when we see someone like Wolfgurl or MrsW who have made just compensation to their victims and EARNED forgiveness, compassion is appropriate. I have no compassion for an remorseless rapist, though, and think it is lunacy to show such a person compassion.

I am not so concerned about how we treat the perp as I am with how we treat the wayward's victims. The betrayed spouse and his children are the ones who really need empathy and compassion. The wayward, not so much.

In other words, do we show compassion for the rapist as he rapes or should we wait until he is done brutalizing his victim? I am a pretty forgiving person,[much has been forgiven me!] but my vote is that we wait until he gets off his victim and we clean up the blood a little. But thats just mean ole me...

I agree. I would sympathise with a remorseful cheater, who can never change what they did. But not really empathise because I don't know what that guilt feels like.

However when someone is aggressively still hurting their spouse, I cannot sympathise, nor empathise with that urge.

My WH is trying to be the latter. But I have protected myself. This means I have the luxury of pitying how he will end up.

x 2

I disagree with this.

The wayward is the enemy while they are in the affair.

Take this example. Zombie apocalypse. Suppose there is a cure for the disease (MB methods).

The wayward, that is, the zombie, is your enemy until the cure (MB methods) is applied and followed to the letter.

Waywards will lie, steal, rob, etc; and they must not be treated as friends while they are in an affair, save for Plan A.

BWS, I don't even know what to say.

I go through some of your previous postings on other people's threads and you are advising them to read HNHN or FILSIL when there is a suspected affair while others are trying to get them to get evidence of an A....

Then I spent about five more mins going through your previous threads and I see that you blame your WW's A from 2006 on her problems with inadequacies and your problems with lovebusters. (Not MB!)

then I see your two last threads prior to this one are listed in the MB101 forum (should be in SAA) regarding her "friendship" with a 19 and 20 year old boys (unless this is the same guy from 2008-2009) from her online gaming that she has sent pictures of herself to and since she refuses to stop this inappropriate contact, you are OK with a compromise the two of you have reached regarding this. (Not MB!)

Having "empathy" for your WW has lead you to NOT changing the conditions that led to her original affair (not closing her LB$ to members of the opposite sex) and it is going to end up killing your M.

My goodness!

Nothing wrong with exploring old ideas to see if the really belong to us or to see if they should be disposed of.


I'll defer to Pepperbands thread; "The carrot & the stick of plan A"
Carrot & Stick
Give it a read again.


I would agree with this as a definition.



I don't agree with this though.
BWS71, I think you're taking a lot of liberty by assuming that Dr. H considers waywards to be regular, decent people. Dr. H actually sums up ALL waywards as, "Someone commiting the most thoughtless act imaginable". He in no way wants to appreciate and have compassion for the wayward, their motives, or their cowardly thoughtlessness. He actually encourages that the wayward stop all of this nonsense immediately or be cut off completely from those nearest and dearest to them.


I think this particular quote needs to be scrutinized by you. I would encourage you to really examine each idea and see if it deserves merit or if it should be discarded.

As a former wayward, I wouldn't want anyone to stare into the abyss I was in just to empathize with me in some way. I was purely evil. There was no person deserving inside of me. I was a selfish, self-will run riot individual, that was hellbent on getting my own way. I also was willing to drag anyone else that would listen to my fog babble right down there with me. Giving me empathy would have FED the monster I had become.

As for dignity; We are told to never cast our pearls before swine. When someone wants to wallow with the pigs, don't try to pull them out, and never climb in to see what it feels like, just let em wallow. When the've had enough offer them a way to cleanup. Look, no one took my dignity and no one prevented me from acting with dignity. Dignity is not bestowed upon someone, it's how one behaves.




Again, Pepperbands thread sums this point up well!




Semantics!

Affair = Adultery

Adultery = Adulterer

Adulterer = Wayward

I believe these are all evil and should never be considered anything less than evil.

BWS71, I like these topics, they always give me a chance to examine old ideas and replace some of them with new ones. My old ideas gave me the oportunity to cling to my independent behavior which led me to a lifestyle that allowed for an affair to take off. And take off it did, like a fire, laying waste to everything in its path.

IMVHO, I believe we live in an age where most people recognise that forgiveness, care and concern are necessary to extend to people in order for them to recover from the wreckage of their pasts. The problem is that we want to play God and give it to them ourselves, as if we have that power, before they have surrendered and asked for the forgiveness themselves.
I had many enablers that nearly prevented me from falling to my knees. Without this act of complete surrender, there could be no recovery, just more wreckage.

Horse-pucky. That's the last thing they deserve, and they will abuse that misguided gesture of goodwill by clinging to it and further claiming their entitlement to destroy their marriage. ("My husband understands my angst! He's kind to me while I boink my affair partner because he empathizes with me!") That way doesn't work. The wayward is an addict at that point and is looking for any source of approval for their actions - what better place to find it than in an enabling spouse who 'understands' their plight? Your bias is clear, here. Have you been wayward at some point? I don't believe it is ever 'inappropriate' to inform a wayward that their damaging behavior is undeserving of empathy. Or sympathy. Or any other -athy. "Empathy: understanding of another's feelings: the ability to identify with and understand somebody else's feelings or difficulties." Do you really understand a wayward's feelings? Can you really identify with a wayward? Have you been wayward?

I didn't empathize for a SECOND when my H's affair was revealed to me. I didn't get it. As we got further into recovery, I began to pity him because of the fallout he had to overcome - the damage to our family,the anger of his employer, his realization of the what he had done...I pitied because he had been stupid and self-serving enough to put himself in that situation. Did I empathize with him? No. I PITIED HIM. That's about as compassionate as I could get.

I would never encourage a betrayed spouse to find it within themselves to empathize with a wayward spouse. Empathy takes them down to the wayward's level, and no betrayed spouse deserves that.

So here is my deal - I am truly seeking understanding. I can see how my post came across as passive aggressive or patronizing - but what I am actually trying to be is *safe* and *careful.* These are sensitive topics and the risk of being misunderstood is high - so I over did it. But I'm truly trying to gain insight from others who have a different opinion than I do.

I value my chance to contribute on the MB forums. Every once in a while I feel I make a difference for someone who is struggling, like people did for me. I'd like to continue to have that opportunity. I've been noticing I'm getting some corrective feedback from other posters. I am trying to understand if we truly differ in our views or simply in how we express our views. No subterfuge. If I'm an outlier, there is probably something wrong.

Before this thread I couldn't tell if I was really so different than the main stream. Looks like I am. This is good info.

I've just learned that Harley has updated some of his material. This is news to me. I'll take a listen to the radio clips posted here and I'll re-read what I have access to in light of the opinions shared here and see if I can figure out why I have a different take than just about everyone else who has posted here. I'm not yet convinced but I'm looking at my own opinions a lot more closely. If you'll keep this thread on your watched topics I'd be interested in continuing to explore it.

There was a comment about the path of my own marriage which I think deserves a response. Yes, it took my wife and I some time to get the whole program in place. I think we're doing a great job of it now. But no, it wasn't natural or easy or instantaneous.

As I think about it, I feel like I did learn this idea of "empathy towards waywards" from Harley during my wife's brief affair. I felt like Harley's material helped me see her as something more than some cruel broken animal. Harley helped me see her as a human being who made some bad choices in a counterproductive attempt to get her needs met - needs that I should have been doing a better job at meeting. I feel like that insight was *key* in our recovery.

As long as I saw myself as the victim and her as the villain - nothing good happened. As soon as I realized that I had played a part in creating the environment conducive to an affair - the light went on for me in a dramatic way. I realized that I had failed to do my part in protecting her. It was when I stopped acting like the victim and started acting and feeling like someone who had some responsibility - and thus some control - that we started to move toward recovery.

I've heard waywards described as rapists and betrayeds cast as passive victims on this thread. I don't see this view as compatible with Harley though. True he notes that the effect of an affair for the betrayed is worse than rape or assault. He also says that an affair is the most cruel thing one spouse can inflict on another. But he also extends a great deal of mercy (in my opinion) towards waywards. He acknowledges that they are often unaware of the pain they are causing and their judgment is warped by the intoxication of the affair. He also acknowledges that un met ENs ARE an important contributor to most affairs. (I just re-read this to confirm.) To me this is what I mean by empathy.

Maybe I'm screwed up in this view. Maybe my wife's affair was so mild that it doesn't really count and I'm MISapplying what I think I learned from it to situations that are totally unrelated. I'm open to that possibility.


My ultimate goal as a member of this community is to help other marriages in trouble by communicating Harley's material in a way that is meaningful, *accurate* and effective - like people helped me. It sounds like I'm off base and/or out of date. I'm going to read up on any new updates I can find. I'm interested in more input.

BWS

No, not really. If you have good boundaries you could go without having a single EN met without having an affair.

If our spouses were in a coma, we should know how to avoid an A. I've been separated in Plan B for a year and not had any lovebank deposits pass between me and another man.

Very easy.

Also if an unknowing person ALLOWS lovebank deposits with an AP they know they should confess their feelings to their spouse once it becomes obvious its a problem. Again, very easy.

I've seen marriages where ENs were met very well and there was still an A due to poor boundaries. The wayward is even more of a cake eater in those cases.

Needs meeting is important to the marriage. It dictates whether we want to stay or divorce. It should have nothing to do with the cruel decision to have some needs met at home and some elsewhere.

If we still want needs met at home...that means the BS is meeting some needs at least.

Maybe a misapplied sense of empathy is actually preventing you from seeing how serious her boundary problems really are.

When you empathize with someone who continues to commit the crime, you are excusing them from the full gravity of the offense.

I'm not a WS or BS, BWS71, so I don't speak from my own experience, just from general observation of human behavior.

Indiegirl - I acknowledged that many spouses go without their ENs being met and don't have affairs. I also agree that poor boundaries are always a component of infidelity. But I feel like the wayward's defects are over-emphasized when we claim that 'waywards don't deserve empathy.' I think this misrepresents Harley's perspective and encourages betrayeds to approach their wayward spouses in ways that are less effective and ultimately harm their chance at recovery.

I said
You said
Then I read http://www.marriagebuilders.com/graphic/mbi5033a_qa.html


and http://www.marriagebuilders.com/graphic/mbi8113_ab.html


Again, for me this shows a great deal of empathy for the wayward spouse. This is the crux of the argument I'm trying to make. When we refer to waywards as rapists(for example), we are sending an un Harley message in my opinion. Harley teaches affairs (unlike rape) are due to factors on both sides of the conflict - boundaries yes, but also unmet ENs. No one would ever claim that a rape victim is somehow responsible for meeting the needs of a rapist or should negotiate with a rapist. But Harley does say that betrayeds should understand and own their part of the marital breakdown and negotiate a satisfying resolution with their wayward spouse if the wayward will give up the affair.

I'm trying to understand why my opinion seems so different than the majority of the posters here.

Let me re-address: It is extremely unlikely that the marriage was in a condition where the BS ENs were being fully met and the WS ENs ignored, so the BS can clearly empathize with the marital conditions that existed pre-A.

In addition, the BS almost certainly entertained the same temptations as the WS. So, the BS can empathize with the draw of having ENs met outside the marriage.

In empathizing beyond this point, it leads the BS through the series of decision points the WS passed in getting to act(s) of infidelity and adultery.

Empathy is automatic under these circumstances. We all have the same thoughts, feelings, wants, needs, desires, and etcetera, experienced by the WS. WSs chose a very destructive path in addressing these. BSs like myself seem to understand the line where pursuit of our personal desires causes harm to others and won't cross that line.

Empathy is neither deserved or undeserved. It's a product of daily human interaction, whereby we strive to understand the perceptions and motivations of those around us. In the process, we develop a better understanding of our own environment.

I think what you're asking is if WSs deserve sympathy. With this question, you're asking what is the appropriate emotional response to infidelity/adultery. Again, deserved/undeserved has nothing to do with it. The range of possible emotional responses by BSs is as broad as the population of BSs.

Finally, in addressing what a WS "deserves:" this falls under the law of natural consequences (of which the BSs response is only a part).

OWH's summary: all BSs empathize with WSs. Some WSs may get sympathy from their BSs. Ultimately, all WSs get what they "deserve."

The actions of the WS in the aftermath of the affair ultimately determines their fate. So, I think the more relevant question is: what can the WS earn?

Hey, BWS -- do you listen to the radio show? I find it's really helpful to get that level of repetition in learning to apply Dr. Harley's advice. I'm to the point now where I can even recognize when Dr. Harley gives advice that contradicts advice he gave elsewhere, and can usually recognize why, based on the differing situations. There is a lot in there about motivation that I think I'm picking up from listening that I don't think he talks about explicitly in many places.

Have you read Effective Marriage Counseling? Defending Traditional Marriage?

BWS, I think the problem you are having is that you seem to believe that understanding the cause of the affair means that the wayward is a victim. A victim to be viewed with pity and compassion. But that is not what Harley teaches at all. Treating the wayward as a victim only serves to enable her abusive behavior. Keep in mind that Dr Harley rejects unconditional love, and the approach you are suggesting is UC.

And yes, adultery is abuse that Dr Harley likens to rape, physical assault and the death of a child so the analogy to a rapist is correct. I found one such post [out of many] over on the private forum:


He doesn't coddle and patronize waywards. He doesn't disrespect them, of course, but he does hold them accountable and insist they provide just compensation to the BS.

The rapist also has several "reasons" why he rapes. It might be that the rape victim "teased" him by wearing suggestive clothing. Does understanding those reasons mean we should have empathy and pity for the rapist?

Or do we save that for his victims?

You missed the point when you said that I was equating an adulterer to a rapist. I actually think adultery is worse, but that was not the goal of my point. The point of the analogy was to emphasize how silly it is to give sympathy to one who perpetrates a crime. That makes no sense.

And of course the BS is a victim. Adultery is the worst thing that can happen to someone. Saying that the recognition of this truth somehow precludes recovery is simply not true.

You did not address my point about timing and I would like an answer to that. Do you show your empathy while the rape is ocurring or do you wait until the rape has stopped and the rapist shows some remorse?


I am curious how you would know this since you haven't helped others into recovery in the years you have been here. I don't recall ever seeing you over on the SAA helping others recover their marriages in the 11 years I have been here. Whereas, those of us posting to you have been in the trenches helping others recover on SAA for years. Many of us have been through the MB course, have daily access to the private forum. listened to hundreds of hours of MB radio and know Dr Harley. As far as I know, you have done none of that.

BWS71, do you believe that the wayward also deserves forgiveness?

What is your understanding of Dr Harley's position on forgiving the infidel? And how should the wayward make amends to the BS?

So what do you believe about Plan B since Plan B encourages no contact at all. As you might say, there's no chance for any empathy...




OK, so what happens with a wayward such as myself. I wouldn't let my wife meet my EN's, even though she continually tried. My IB prevented it.

So I was constantly lovebusting with my IB and she was always willing to meet my EN's....

She was already at risk of plan doormat, a nervous breakdown and just worn out, what should she have done? Did she need to just have more empathy?

I know all about Dr. H's Plan A and Dr. H's Plan B but I don't really see a Plan E (for Empathy) anywhere.

Understanding what it takes to help end an affair, and understanding what leads to an affair is not the same as offering a wayward empathy. Understanding how to fight affairs is intellectually based, not emotionally based. It's intellect over emotion. Allowing emotion to overtake the intellect is a formula for insanity and it's also what leads to plan doormat and nervous breakdowns for BS's.

Frankly, I think the entire question is a distraction.

The rules for recovery include:
* No disrespectful judgments, which would include blaming each other
* Conversation must not dwell on mistakes of the past, so the affair must not be brought up once it has been dealt with

If those rules are kept, I'd say it truly doesn't much matter if the betrayed spouse empathizes with the wayward spouse or not. I've never heard Dr. Harley state that the betrayed spouse must empathize with the wayward. I have heard him explain to betrayed wives and husbands how their spouse fell and how anyone would likely fall in love and have an affair if they had put themselves in the same situation (by not taking extraordinary precautions), and I would agree that information might generate some empathy, but I haven't heard him talk about empathy per se. Usually he only brings this up in a situation where a betrayed spouse will not stop dwelling on the affair and are demanding an answer to the repeated question: "WHY?" and the purpose of him discussing it is to motivate the betrayed spouse to work on recovery.

Dr. Harley usually talks to people in affairs very respectfully, but I do not find him saying anything about it being crucial to have empathy for the wayward spouse. I do find him saying that it is crucially important that a wayward husband be fully repentant, hat in hand, or recovery is not likely to be successful -- and then turning around and saying that it is not so necessary that a wayward wife be so repentant. He says that many wayward wives never stop incorrectly blaming their husbands for the affair (i.e., by not meeting their wife's needs before the affair) and that this is not an obstacle to recovery. But then he says that this is an obstacle to recovery if it's coming from a wayward husband!

Dr. Harley is much harder on husbands than on wives. If you're not very familiar with this difference, I would say there is a huge gap in your Marriage Builders knowledge. I am not aware of any articles on this site addressing this, or any comments in his books addressing it, but it is addressed on the radio all the time. If we are interested in coaching people the way Dr. Harley does (the way that works, unlike pretty much all the other counseling and psychobabble out there), then I don't think we can miss this point.

In your situation, it was probably vital that you accept your wife and go through recovery even if she were not fully repentant. Yet if the tables were turned, it would be vital for a betrayed wife to NOT express so much empathy toward a wayward husband that she would accept him in an unrepentant state. If one took advice for your situation and applied it toward betrayed wives, they would be advising an extremely DANGEROUS situation.

In my opinion, not knowing these things but trying to give blanket advice for all is reckless and dangerous.

"deserve" is an interesting word to use. If I "deserve" something, I am entitled to it.

But Dr. Harley speaks against entitlement in marriage. It leads to demands and abuse.

A wayward spouse is not entitled to empathy or forgiveness. A betrayed spouse does not have to recover. If both husband and wife want to recover after an affair, there are certain rules for them to follow, and none of those rules dictate that the betrayed spouse must feel or express empathy for their spouse's affair.

Exactly!

I was on the radio show last year regarding my xWH and his cheating.

Dr Harley said to me: I have always taken the position that everybody would be unfaithful under certain conditions and no one would be unfaithful under other conditions -- that infidelity has more to do with the CONDITIONS than whether there were unmet ENs etc.

He didn't want to hear about my xWH's bad childhood, he didn't mention my need for empathy, he didn't want my ex to go to therapy or explore the reasons for his compulsion to cheat (this was brought up specifically because that's why my ex wanted to do and wanted me to give him the chance to do this).

His advice to me was that xWH change the conditions that led to his cheating, period (i.e., for my ex he recommended that he leave his job and work at home with me -- should be noted that empathy for xWH's feelings regarding this issue wasn't even a factor for Dr Harley).

BWS, I have heard Dr Harley state several times on his radio show that "feelings will led us astray". He wants us to use logic when implementing his plans, not feelings. And your story is a good example of why.

I see as a theme throughout your threads regarding your W a better need for "understanding" or "empathizing" her and I see where it has led you in terms of not following Dr Harley's program.

For example, in 2007, you posted that you two are still attending the church where OM is, more than 6 mos after the affair supposedly ends. You seem to rationalize this by explaining this was more about your W having a hard time saying no to men than it being an EA.

In 2008, you posted about your having needed a better understanding and information regarding your W's relationship with a boy in order to reach a compromise to allow her to chat and text with him.

In 2009, you post about your W wanting you to be "enthusiastic" and to understand her need for IB that you had complained about -- spending time playing online games and chatting to members of the opposite sex.

These is such a gross misapplication of MB principals. Why? Because you are trying to "understand" and be "empathetic" w/ your W rather than be methodical and logical in following the plans and rules here. Exactly what Dr Harley DOESN'T advise.

To further add to this ... my xWH (and I think yours as well Susie) has such a high need for admiration, that the only way my xWH would remain faithful to me is if his life is set up so that I am the only one meeting his need for admiration. My xWH has jumped into the world of false admiration galore by following his feelings of "needing to be fully admired for both good and bad behavior." His feelings have lead him down this one way track into hell because anyone sane could look at the picture and go, "HUH??? He just did what?"

Your heart can be treacherous ... hence logic is the only way to make the right decisions. No amount of empathy is going to give this man the admiration he is searching to find that "HIGH". If I chose to follow my heart down this path with him (i.e. a never ending Plan A) I would have a nervous breakdown. No one should ever endure a life of rewarding bad behavior over and over again because some wayward can't seem to figure out logically how to get his emotional needs met.

My xWH knows crystal clear how to do this ... but he refuses ... because the false admiration is so powerful he is willing to lose it all and then some to gain his temporary fix. I can't feel sorry for someone who is that stupid. I can't feel sorry for someone who will throw innocent children away because he can't seem to "feel good inside".

Logic keeps one sane ... any other path leads to heartache and pain ... I have had enough pain and heartache... hence I choose a life of logic.

First off there has been another comment about the path of my own marriage that is documented in my personal threads three years ago. Yes, it took my wife and I some time to get the whole program in place. We stepped back from the brink of divorce pretty quickly, but full understanding, acceptance and implementation of a MB lifestyle was not natural or easy or instantaneous for us. It took a few years honestly. But now 6 years from DDay we have an absolutely amazing marriage. We are masters of the POJA. We are experts at meetings each other�s ENs. I can�t think of the last time either one of us has made a major withdrawal from each other�s love bank. I can�t even think of the last time we made each other feel bad. Her boundary issues are gone. We have extraordinary protective measures in place. I haven�t AO�d or DJ�d for years. We are very much in love.

Thank God and Dr Harley� I�m actually not sure which deserves the most credit (joke, sort of.)

Next�

I feel like I have absorbed enough info from everyone�s comments to get some traction on this topic and move towards closure. Here is what I�ve learned:

(for those who don�t like closed loop communication, feel free to skip this post.)

1) The words �deserve� and �empathy� are problematic and should be avoided in MB discussions. These words are interpreted by some people in ways that are contrary to MB principles.

2) Dr Harley has updated some of his material in a way that is significantly different than what is currently available in his books and on his website. This material is currently available on the radio show but should be included in his updated edition of SAA.


What has not changed for me?

I still believe
1) Dr Harley teaches that affairs most often happen in the setting of both poor boundaries and unmet ENs. Both are crucial parts of the atmosphere that leads to affairs. They are both important. The relative importance of unmet ENs vs poor boundaries varies on the couple and the situation. It is crucial that advice seekers understand the Carrot is just as important as the Stick.

2) While BSs are working to end the affair, they should also begin to get their heads around the idea that recovering their marriage is going to mean learning to meet their WSs needs better. BSs don�t actually attempt to meet needs until the affair is over and the WS is committed to recovery, but BS needs to start building a plan at the same time they are undermining the affair. If they fail to make this paradigm shift early in the game they are losing valuable time. They may help destroy the affair yes, but that will do little to attract the WS back to the scorched earth that was their marriage. For me this paradigm shift arises from empathy towards the WS. A lot of people don't like this word. It fits perfectly for me.

When I read or hear something from Harley that changes my interpretation, I�ll believe. But this is how I understand what is currently on his website and in his books so I find it unlikely to be terribly off track.

BWS

The BS DOES meet needs during Plan A.

Scorched earth? Um...okay. So if someone burns my garden I have to fill their needs (a part of Harley's plans anyway) to get them to come back and even look at my burned up garden? And even empathize with how hard it was to burn the garden?

I do not have to have empathy for a WS. I don't WANT to know how they felt during the affair. I want to know what they feel NOW. RIGHT NOW.

Karmarose - I agree with you on Plan A. Thanks for the clarification.

I think you've misunderstood my reference to 'scorched earth.' Then you argued with your misunderstood version of my position. I feel like you are trying to define me more than understand me. This seems to be a recurring experience for me on this thread. It is partly my fault. I realize my lead post was distracting. I'd approach it differently if I were to do it over again. I explained earlier what my intent was.

Getting dressed this morning I thought about one reason why this topic of empathy matters so much to me. While deployed to Iraq I worked in a detention facility with Iraqi detainees. A full-bird colonel came down to visit our unit one day. During his briefing he told us all how the Iraqi people are crude, uncivilized, and only understand violence. This was not long after Abu Ghraib. I took great exception to that characterization. I was especially concerned about the effect this view could have on the 19-22 year old interrogators, security gaurds, and intel guys I worked with. I can see how this culture of villainization of the enemy allowed for and even promoted the horrific retaliatory humiliation and torture that our service men and women perpetrated on Iraqi prisoners just a short time before. Their behavior came from the complete lack of empathy for the enemy.

Some people may say the enemy deserves no empathy. They are't like us. They aren't human. I disagree. I even have (had) emapthy for Bin Laden. Not sympathy. Not acceptance or agreement with his world view or actions. But I can see the world from his point of view which helps explain his behavior. From his point of view his actions make total sense. If I felt and believed the way he did I'd probably act the same way. Important caveat - I could also put a bullet in his head - because from my point of view that is what needs to happen with hardened terrorists bent on killing Americans. But this doesn't preclude me from being able to understand his worldview and perspective. Some people here may really disagree with me. That is fine. I'm just trying to explain my view, not persuade you to adopt it.

I have the same concerns about characterizing WSs as enemies who we should not try to empathize with. When I say empathize i mean with how they felt in their unsatisfying marriages and yes, even empathize with what it must feel like to finally have your ENs met in an amazing way - but not with their selfish behaviors.

When we cast the WS as the villain/enemy and the BS as the victim, we do both of them a disservice. We encourage retaliatory violence against the 'enemy' - because enemies should be destroyed. We encourage passivity and impotence in the BS who is just a victim and has no power to change the world around them.

These are my thoughts. I do feel like I'm running out of ways to re-state them. If you don't like them that is fine. What I would like is for someone to point me to a primary Harley source that plainly states how my thoughts are contrary to MB. I'm very open to that. BrainHurts has pasted some links to specific radio clips. Does anyone else have links to material from Harley that will help me gain a more accurate understanding of his position on this topic?


BWS

BWS, I am pretty sure we understand your views just fine, but just don't agree with you for the numerous stated reasons in this thread. All of which you ignored and couldn't answer, other than to repeat back to us what we said.["mirroring"] Sugarcane asked you early on for some real life examples of this alleged mistreatment of WS and we have yet to see it. Assertions that are made without substantiation can be dismissed on the same basis.

I suspect the difference in perspectives is because we have real life experience helping BS's and you don't. I think you imagine that we tell BS's to mistreat WS's but that is where your premise is wrong.

You don't know this because you have not been in the trenches all these long years helping others so you are just assuming. And you are assuming wrong.

But that is ok. You don't have to understand how it really works since you are not in the trenches with us. And we don't have to point you to any source of Dr Harley's saying you are wrong, because there is not a source that says you are right. You were not able to support your case.

You gave it your best shot and were not able to persuade anyone here but I appreciate the effort.

Personally, I do not come here to educate someone who has been here for 5 years, but come here to help folks in need. I view this thread as a distraction from that mission.

All the best...

BWS71, you wrote:


It sounds like you think your WW's affair is justified...and even deserved. I don't really know how anyone can convince you that a WS doesn't deserve empathy when you seem to have adopted a mindset of thinking your WW was driven to have an affair because of YOU vs her making a choice to do so. Or perhaps, your views are your coping mechanisms to 'accept' your wife's betrayal and your own guilt. Whatever it is, many (most?) BSs aren't going to agree IMO. Every BS should exam their role in the marital breakdown and clean up his side of the street but your acceptance of blame for your WW's affair seems over the top to me.

BWS,

When you start a thread it's generally accepted that the original poster will attempt to respond to questions as they arise.
I took the time to respond respectfully, but have not received the same courtesy.

When you have time, look back over my posts and maybe even respond to my questions.

Thanks

This is a complete glossing over of the point I was trying to make.

Having a WS three years after the A engaging in such marriage wrecking behavior as I already outlined before goes much deeper than "we needed some time to get the whole program in place." (the fact that you would even describe it that way says something, I think)

The BS has to consider that they are an enabler/experiencing their own fog at that point and I think your mindset and what you are trying to convey in this thread ties right into that..

This simply does not happen in MB.

Violence?

Cast as enemies?

Destroyed?

How - by insisting on faithfulness?

Even verbal anger is taboo, words of disrespect are banned. Where is this violence and mistreatment of WSs?

The WS cast THEMSELF as an enemy to the BS by lying, cheating and generally attacking the marriage.

Do you think any BS WANTS to cast them in that role?

Far from casting them as such ourselves, we use Plan A to SHOW them there is another, less abusive way. We are cheerleaders for the 'This is not really YOU' approach. An approach that welcomes the repentant.

Even Plan B, which does indeed treat the WS as an enemy (one in which they have cast themselves in that role) is merely protective of the BS, not violent or disrespectful in any way.

Throughout this protective act, the white flag of peace waves in the form of a Plan B letter.

MB overall is a most gracious approach which DOES accept that while they behave in evil ways, they can choose not to at any point.

If they do not, it is their choice to characterise their own selves as wrong doers who are not to be trusted.

When they do this the BS may feel pity, but cannot emphathise with such a destructive choice. Unless in Plan Doormat.

Enabling is strongly discouraged in Plan B.

I suggest you take MLs advice and look up Dr H's words on the circumstances in which a BS should offer forgiveness and which they should not.

Huh?

Plan A DOES include demonstrating a willingness to meet needs. What are you talking about there is no meeting the WS's needs until R and a shift is necessary?

I also don't understand why you feel the need to enlighten us on what happens in Plan A/Recovery?? Or tell us it is "crucial" that Plan A is both the carrot and the stick?

This is basic stuff that is clearly covered in the basic concepts and even threads like the Carrot and the stick that posters in SAA are encouraged to read routinely. I don't understand your point in posting this at all.

So you are basically saying posters don't understand this when they are helping folks out on the SAA or In Recovery board? You have already been told that if this is what you believe, you should point out a specific instance so that we can follow what you are talking about.

But we don't characterize WSs as 'the enemy' - the AFFAIR is the enemy. It's all well and good to empathize with someone who is in an unsatisfying situation. You are empathizing with them because of their situation. What changes the dynamic is when they become wayward. They have chosen an unsatisfactory way to deal with their unsatisfying situation - a true friend would condemn their choice, not empathize with it. A true friend would condemn their actions while helping them to make a better choice, which is what we do here daily. Again, the wayward is not the enemy. The affair is. Second, oh hell YES, the betrayed spouse is a victim. Of infidelity. It's not a disservice, it's calling a spade a spade. The problem with identifying a BS as a victim would only be if their victimhood caused them to dwell on their pain and not act to change their reality - that's called enabling, and we don't do that here, either. Can you give us quotes that support your position? I'm assuming you've read the articles here and have citations to support your posts. You are indulging in a circular argument, which is time-consuming. In other words, you appear to already have a clear idea of what you are seeking to debate. Bring it to the thread to support your premise.

An enabler generally has an underlying need for control. If he/she can take the blame for the misbehavior of others, then perhaps he/she can change enough to get back control of their environment (ex. If I am nicer, keep a clean house etc. he'll stop abusing me). It's just too scary to think that bad things can happen willy nilly.

The draw of this type of thinking is the belief in the ability to control others' hurtful behavior so it won't happen again. This poster's stance on why the affair occurred rings of this type of outlook. I think that's where the empathy question is coming from. I understand it. I used to think that if I was just nice enough to people they would be nice back. Or at least they would learn to over time. Big mistake. I don't have to understand why someone did something wrong, I just have to learn to teach others how I will or will not be treated. That's it. Period.

So... an interesting change happened to me yesterday. After a week of universal opposition, I think I actually get it... and also why I wasn't getting it. I feel really stupid.


I absolutely agree - wayward spouses do not 'deserve' emapathy - or maybe even better said "Extending empathy to a wayward spouse can be harmful to both the wayward (enabling) and the BS and should not be encouraged.

I totally get it. And everything everyone has been saying now makes total sense to me.



Why was I not getting it? There are some interesting reasons I think I can see. I'll talk about them later but here is my attempt at a simple explanation:



I think what I was trying to say is "wayward SPOUSES deserve empathy."

You guys said "WAYWARD spouses do NOT deserve empathy."



I definitely meant to say "SPOUSES deserve empathy" - even better said

"Extending empathy to our spouses can improve the chance of a succesful recovery."


Would it be fair to simplify the opinion of this group (and the MB program) as "WAYWARDS should not be shown empathy while they're wayward." ?

There is a big difference between those two statements.

I know this explanationis simplistic. If that doesn't make sense, I can probably explain better.

I know I'm just repeating what everyone has already said. Look past the 'mirroring' if it annoys you - this is how my brain works best. I am repeating the arguments of those I disagreed with, but now I actually get what they were trying to say.

I have some other comments on "over empathising" and enabling which I totally agree I did with my W and something I would warn others against. I have some other thoughts too but I'm just coming off of a 24 hour shift and I'm a little punchy.

I didn't want to let any more time go by (or any more posts come in) before I responded and at least said "I get it."

Back in a day or so.

BWS

Thanks for keeping an open mind, BWS. I agree that empathy is an important element of any good marriage. It is most especially important to show empathy and compassion to the BETRAYED SPOUSE after they have been assaulted by an affair.

Like Steve Harley tells the WS, you are the doctor and BS is your patient; it is up to you to tend to her wounds. Dr Harley takes this a step further when he explains that the path to recovery is for the WS to make "just compensation" to his victim:

Can't We Just Forgive and Forget?

In other words, after an affair, the compassion and empathy needs to be focused on the BETRAYED SPOUSE.

Welcome to the land of reality And don't feel stupid. Feel enlightened. It's not that mirroring annoys us (or at least, me) it's that mirroring is not productive. We are very action-oriented on this site. Correct. They should NOT be shown empathy, and I would question the person showing them empathy. Their actions are reprehensible and are not deserving of empathy.

BWS, I think this could all be summed up thusly:

If you want to recover your marriage, don't be disrespectful to your spouse or dwell on their past mistakes.

Thanks to everyone who posted on this thread. Sorry I was being so thick. I was experiencing total target fixation I think. What I meant and still strongly believe is that our SPOUSES DESERVE EMPATHY. What I really meant to say is �a marriage where one spouse is severely withdrawn, developing, communicating and demonstrating empathy can help bring them out of withdrawal.� I went back and read the post on NAF�s thread that sparked this thread and I realize this is not at all what I actually said. I don�t blame ML and markos for jumping all over it. I totally misspoke.

If you go back through all my posts and replace �wayward� with �withdrawn� I think this will much better represent my feelings. I also suspect you�ll see this as nothing new or revelatory to people even slightly familiar with MB. I wanted to help NAF see that his W likely had some valid reasons for withdrawing and instead of condemning her as �unchristian� or some of the other criticisms he had used to dismiss her withdrawal he should try to understand and address those reasons.

We all agreed his W was very likely having some sort of affair and that he should do all he could to find and eliminate it. I said an �affair if It exists is not the root problem in his marriage � but a symptom of unmet needs.� I can see now how that is not a well thought out statement and I won�t be making it again.

The rest of this post may or may not be interesting to anyone. I don�t expect responses necessarily.

I did �overempathize� with my wife�s withdrawal. When I woke up to Harley and my destructive contributions to my marital breakdown it was a profound, life changing revelation. Instead of seeing myself as a helpless victim of my wife�s desire to get out of our marriage � I realized I was an accomplice. I had lovedbusted my account in her love bank in to oblivion. My assumption of responsibility may have been over the top, but it is what she needed I think, and it was sincere. It did draw her out of withdrawal. She was not wayard at that time. I wasn�t even aware there had been an affair. She had already cut it off completely. As part of radical honesty she later told me everything about it � but it was totally over including a letter of NC and they have never communicated since.

I do admit I should have done more to investigate an affair from the beginning though. Our failure to understand the significance of it (and my wife�s boundary issues that allowed it to happen) left us vulnerable to it happening again since we didn�t agree on and implement Extra Ordinary Precautions.

So not surprisingly she had another EA. It had nothing to do with unmet ENs or my LBs. It was all about her boundaries. I did *enable* it by not demanding it stop � but I certainly did not *empathize* with it AT ALL. Her refusal to protect me and us from this EA caused me to feel hatred towards her. I did feel like a victim this time and she was a cruel torturer. I even hired a counselor to try to help us solve the conflict. The counselor was worthless. Though I bordered on mental illness from it � my wife continued to not see it as an issue. In fact she saw my response as a way of trying to control her - which admittedly I had done a lot of before Harley. But her resistance on this topic was wrong. Just like ML told me way back then - EAs are not negotiable. I didn't get it.

I considered yanking the internet cable out of the wall and refusing to pay for her cell phone - but I didn't. I thought about divorce but I decided I could live with this EA in order to keep my family intact. I did believe that it would eventually dry up, like it did. The likelihood of it going to a PA was extremely low and I watched everything like a hawk.

No empathy deserved. No empathy felt. The only empathy I extend her is I know she didn�t believe she was doing anything wrong. She was acting consistently with her perspective � a perspective that many other �good� people ascribe to. But it is totally un Harley.

My wife probably sounds terrible � but she just had this blind spot. Yes, a very dangerous blind spot that almost caused a massive and potentially fatal car crash in our marriage. But her flaws and my negativity are overrepresented here. She is an awesome mother, wife and friend. We are way past all that crap now. NO boundary issues in YEARS. We are masters of the POJA now. We still practice EPs. We finally have a great marriage � one that I�d open up for scrutiny to any MB master.

But mine is a cautionary tale. I absolutely reject the idea of empathy for wayward behavior and thinking. I�d never purposely tell anyone to try to empathize with it. It was reckless of me to post this thread on the SAA forum. I didn�t realize what I was mistakenly implying. Again, sorry.

I tell posters �I don�t� know much about the right way to deal with As. I didn�t do a very good job with it myself. You should listen to other people on that topic. I can maybe help you with a withdrawn spouse.�

I�m going back to MB101 now where (if anywhere) I belong. =)

It sounds like you learned the hard way, as did we all.

And I do believe that FORMER waywards deserve empathy. They can't change their past and that must be awful. The active wayward however is just a drunk who needs tough love.

EPs are not "agreed on" or subject to POJA. They are non-negotiable.

BWS, I'm going to do something with you that I often do for posters in need. I'm not sure you're in any dire need or anything, but I often point out to people that I've asked them questions that I don't think they answered. So here it is:


I'm thinking all of these resources (the radio show and the two books) would be useful for you in pursuing the goal you stated: "My ultimate goal as a member of this community is to help other marriages in trouble by communicating Harley's material in a way that is meaningful, *accurate* and effective." I'm recommending them to you. I know this thread went pretty fast and furious, and maybe you missed this post before, or maybe you thought I was attacking you in some way. But I'm meaning to offer the serious suggestion: listen to the show (daily) and get these books.

Markos - I appreciated your posts. I found what you had to say and how you said it really helpful. I realize there were a number of posts I didn't address. As you can see from my signature I've got a busy household so I had to pick and choose which posts to respond to due to time constraints.

I did hear your advice and will take it. I have a work conference coming up which would be a good time to get and read the counseling book. The radio show will be a little tougher timing-wise but it looks like I can listen to the re-broadcast any time.

Thanks for your input. Anything else you think I missed let me know

BWS

I usually listen to the re-broadcast. On the MB radio app on my phone - while doing the dishes!!

A hated DS task made bearable by IC. If that tip helps you

There is nothing wrong in caring for a wayward spouse.
We can pray for them. (as taught in the book of Hosea)
We can hope that they will change their behaviors.
We can stop enabling their destructive behaviors.

But all of us are evil. The bible says The heart of man is desperately wicked, who can know it?

It is difficult to have boundaries while loving someone.
But sometimes we have to practice "tough love" and there is nothing wrong in feeling sorry for someone making self destructive decisions, wether it is infidelity or drugs or alcohol or any other worldly sin.