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Originally Posted by Jedi_Knight
This woman was physically attractive.
I encouraged her to keep attending church and said goodbye.

But I thought, Why would a woman in her thirties choose to have a best friend that is a male?
Why not? Maybe she is divorced, maybe she is a widow.
Maybe they run a business together or a charity with consent of their spouses.
Maybe they are having an affaire.

The first thing you notice when meeting these ppl is the womans physicals, perfectly normal.
Next you seem to WANT to judge their relationship as either proper or improper, although you have no real evidence to support either theory.
The woman communicates with you that its ok to approach.
Why do you feel the need to assess their relationship further, before having a deeper conversation with them both?

As for the advice of the Dr. Is there a possibility to relocate your family away from their mother?

Last edited by geroldmodel; 12/10/12 08:59 PM.
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Originally Posted by Jedi_Knight
Specifically I want to follow Dr Harley's advice below:

"I understand how you want your children to have a reasonably friendly relationship with their mother. �But under the circumstances, I�d suggest that instead, you create a wall of protection around your children as long as possible because of your wife�s thoroughly uncaring behavior toward them. �Let them know the full truth about her lack of care for them because of her love for another man. �Don�t embellish the story, just give them the facts. �Sooner or later she will probably try to restore her relationship with them through you, perhaps in the hope that she would receive some kind of financial support from you or the state if she were to have partial custody. �But I would let them know that not every mother loves or knows how to care for her children. �Sadly, their mother is probably one of these people. �Plan B is probably the best way to create that wall of protection."

Any thoughts?
BPD Central. For friends and family of people who are living with a personality disorder. Their
support group is amazing

Last edited by geroldmodel; 12/10/12 09:12 PM.
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Originally Posted by geroldmodel
Originally Posted by Jedi_Knight
This woman was physically attractive.
I encouraged her to keep attending church and said goodbye.

But I thought, Why would a woman in her thirties choose to have a best friend that is a male?
Why not? Maybe she is divorced, maybe she is a widow.
Maybe they run a business together or a charity with consent of their spouses.
Maybe they are having an affaire.

The first thing you notice when meeting these ppl is the womans physicals, perfectly normal.
Next you seem to WANT to judge their relationship as either proper or improper, although you have no real evidence to support either theory.
The woman communicates with you that its ok to approach.
Why do you feel the need to assess their relationship further, before having a deeper conversation with them both?

As for the advice of the Dr. Is there a possibility to relocate your family away from their mother?

In the past I would not even think about relationship dynamics.
But after listening to the Radio Show daily, I understand how messed up people are and I find myself classifying people as buyers renters or freeloaders

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[quote=geroldmodelBPD Central. For friends and family of people who are living with a personality disorder. Their
support group is amazing
[/quote]

My ex wifes sister told me that she thought ww had BPD.
The SIL does have an education in psychology.
However.
dr Harley said on the Radio Show that if the person does not attempt suicide then there is no BPD.
After listening to several radio clips, and reading about "Electric Fence" in Buyers Renters Freeloaders book, that describes my ex wife.
A couple posters, including Melody Lane have posted that they see similarities between my wife and themselves.
So now I wonder: Maybe she could follow the POJA after the affair?
But then I consider Dr Harley who said they usually can't.
So I'm really just completely without direction in this area.

Several have said that she is just in the fog. But she was always out of mainstream.
The story in the book about Beth sitting in the booth is very similar to my ex wife.


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Quote
dr Harley said on the Radio Show that if the person does not attempt suicide then there is no BPD.

I think that is a very narrow definition of BPD actually.
It is correct from a psychiatric-point of view though.

Only low-functioning BPD's end op in psych-wards because of attempted suicide. They will be diagnosed with BPD there.

High-functioning BPD's do not end up in psych-wards, but the damage they do to their "partners & family" is just as bad.
They will NEVER be diagnosed.

You dismiss the opinion of HER OWN SISTER, who is a PSYCHOLOGIST and has known your wife for her ENTIRE life.

Dr. Harley does not known your wife but TELLS YOU TO PROTECT YOURSELF & YOUR CHILDREN FROM THIS WOMEN.

First thing you do is:
1) Dismiss your SIL's opinion: namely your wife is suffering from a personality disorder. You do this by QUOTING Dr. Harley.

2) You ALLOW your wife access to your children in contrary of what Dr. Harley says you should do.

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Quote
After listening to several radio clips, and reading about "Electric Fence" in Buyers Renters Freeloaders book, that describes my ex wife.

I have read that book too.
Dr. Harley uses "Electric Fence"-personality as a laymans term for a series of disorders: Anxiety, Depression, Obsession etc.
All these "issues" can be overcome with therapy.

Personality disorders however, cannot be overcome with therapy.

Quote
dr Harley said on the Radio Show that if the person does not attempt suicide then there is no BPD.

I think that is a very narrow definition of BPD actually.
It is correct from a psychiatric-point of view though.

Only low-functioning BPD's end op in psych-wards because of attempted suicide. They will be diagnosed with BPD there.

High-functioning BPD's do not end up in psych-wards, but the damage they do to their "partners & family" is just as bad.
They will NEVER be diagnosed.

You dismiss the opinion of HER OWN SISTER, who is a PSYCHOLOGIST and has known your wife for her ENTIRE life.

Dr. Harley does not known your wife but TELLS YOU TO PROTECT YOURSELF & YOUR CHILDREN FROM THIS WOMEN. He does not say these things to "electric fense" cases, does he?
He is pretty serious!

First thing you do is:
1) Dismiss your SIL's EDUCATED opinion: namely your wife is suffering from a personality disorder. You do this by QUOTING Dr. Harley.

2) Then you ALLOW your wife access to your children in contrary of what Dr. Harley says you should do.

You can downplay your wife disorder in your own head, but that does not it make ANY LESS REAL, JEDI

Listen to your SIL.
Do what the Dr. adviced you PERSONALLY.
And visit:
http://bpdfamily.com/message_board/

Last edited by geroldmodel; 12/11/12 07:36 AM.
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Wait.
I don't allow my wife access to my children.
I followed Dr Harley's advice and I have full custody. She has supervised visitation. That is ordered by the court. I dont have control over what the court orders.

Dr Harley also said in a radio call that a BPD would not end a relationship. They cling to it.

What confuses me is the following:

I have read love cycle of a BPD.
My wife and I met and she basically just moved in with me 2 weeks after meeting me. She was 6 years older than me and I thought I was "in love".
2 months later I asked her to marry me.
But a month later, when she left for a week to visit her sister I had time to think and I decided I didn't want to marry her. Everything was happening too fast.

I resolved to break it off. But then she called and said she was pregnant.
I had been taught responsibility. I made a baby so I had to marry her.

(I'll continue this later. I would like opinions because her affair will eventually die and I don't know how to respond when it does. If I should consider trying to win her back or remain in plan B indefinitely. She has caused a lot of pain to my children that makes me angry. )

Last edited by Jedi_Knight; 12/11/12 09:53 AM.
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Gerald.
I just went to the BPD message board and registered.
There was a member there involved in an affair with a married woman and he was getting hugs and support because he thinks she has BPD.
I was the only one that posted to him that his affair is morally wrong and that he is a homewrecker.
I can't be around people that support adultery like those board members do

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I can't be around people that support adultery like those board members do
They do not support adultery on that board!

The main focus on that forum is dealing with BPD from a friends & partners perspective. It is not MB! Nor does that forum JUDGE people on the nature of the relationship with the BPD.

It is a place DESIGNED to deal with the effects of a toxic relationship: Even affairee's can be victims of a personality disordered OP. They deal with that FIRST. The part the "victim" played, will be discussed in a later face once the "victim" is out of the FOG.

Learn what you can Jedi, save the relationship-morality for this board.


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Thanks for the suggestion but I can't watch people on that board pat affair partners on the back because they are having an affair with someone with a personality disorder.
I made 3 posts in that forum and told them adultery is morally wrong and I won't make any more. I was shocked at all the adultery cases there.

It is my belief that God and His laws must come first.
These people should not be commiting adultery.
And a lot of the behavior they are self diagnosing as BPD sounds like common affair fog.

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Quote
Dr Harley also said in a radio call that a BPD would not end a relationship. They cling to it.

True, but a bit more nuance is in it's place here.
One of the personality traits of a BPD is;

FEAR OF ABANDONMENT

another one that is NOT described in the DSM IV medical guide as it is only apparent witin a relationship is:

THE PUSH & PULL CYCLE
http://www.downwardspiralintothevortex.com/2012/03/push-me-pull-you-push-pull-cycle.html

Rings a bell?

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Also Dr Harley does not say Electric Fence can be overcome with therapy.
He consistently says that personalities cannot be changed.
I avoided that fence by moving and having mold inspections done, not having the kids vaccinated etc.
But dr Harley says that safety and health are exceptions to his rules and when I got the kids vaccinated and checkups....,huge love buster for my wife. I was on the electric fence.

My kids are probably better off with divorced parents for a more normal childhood anyway.
They were starting to develop the same fears as my wife, with foods and doctors and school.
Now, they are integrated into social circles!

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Originally Posted by Jedi_Knight
Wait.
I don't allow my wife access to my children.
I followed Dr Harley's advice and I have full custody. She has supervised visitation. That is ordered by the court. I dont have control over what the court orders.

OK, I am European and not so familiar with USA-court casess.
The Judge ordered she has supervised visitation, but you feel the 30 minute intervals are not safe enough for your kids right?

If you move to another state, she will still have the LEGAL opportunity for visitation & you will not be in contempt with court, right?

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He consistently says that personalities cannot be changed.
Change personalities? That is indeed impossible.
BUT as you know you CAN CHANGE BEHAVIOUR.

Depression, Anxiety & Obsession can be repressed with Behavioural Psychotherapy.
Personality Disorders cannot.

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Originally Posted by geroldmodel
Quote
Dr Harley also said in a radio call that a BPD would not end a relationship. They cling to it.

True, but a bit more nuance is in it's place here.
One of the personality traits of a BPD is;

FEAR OF ABANDONMENT

another one that is NOT described in the DSM IV medical guide as it is only apparent witin a relationship is:

THE PUSH & PULL CYCLE
http://www.downwardspiralintothevortex.com/2012/03/push-me-pull-you-push-pull-cycle.html

Rings a bell?

I read the article.
But the thing is. My wife left us for her affair partner. She said she was don't being a mom and wife and loved om.
She is also the adult child of an alcoholic and that is also a trait : fear of abandonment

The love Cycle of bpd describes us well.
She had mystery Illnesses starting in the second year of our marriage. Doctors couldn't find any problems.

Weird phobias.

She has never been able to keep a job.

If not for the affair I think I could have learned to live within her fence.
But I would still of had to make
Unilateral decisions for safety and health which would have continually placed the marriage at risk.
On the flip side there are posters that say they have similar personalities and have been able to adopt MB programs. So i really don't know what to think

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Originally Posted by geroldmodel
One of the personality traits of a BPD is;
gerold - what do you mean by BPD?

Jedi, what do you mean by it?

Are you two talking about the same condition? BPD is used as an acronym for two separate and distinct conditions.


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BPD = Borderline Personality Disorder as desribed by the
Official American Diagnostic and Statistical Manual of Mental Disorders

Quote
Borderline Personality Disorder DSM IV Criteria

A pervasive pattern of instability of interpersonal relationships, self-image, and affects, and marked impulsivity beginning by early adulthood and present in a variety of contexts, as indicated by five (or more) of the following:

1. frantic efforts to avoid real or imagined abandonment. Note: Do not include suicidal or self-mutilating behavior covered in Criterion 5.

2. a pattern of unstable and intense interpersonal relationships characterized by alternating between extremes of idealization and devaluation.

3. identity disturbance: markedly and persistently unstable self-image or sense of self.

4. impulsivity in at least two areas that are potentially self-damaging (e.g., spending, sex, substance abuse, reckless driving, binge eating). Note: Do not include suicidal or self-mutilating behavior covered in Criterion 5.

5. recurrent suicidal behavior, gestures, or threats, or self-mutilating behavior

6. affective instability due to a marked reactivity of mood
(e.g., intense episodic dysphoria, irritability, or anxiety usually lasting a few hours and only rarely more than a few days).
7. chronic feelings of emptiness

8. inappropriate, intense anger or difficulty controlling anger (e.g., frequent displays of temper, constant anger, recurrent physical fights)

9. transient, stress-related paranoid ideation or severe dissociative symptoms

The DSM IV goes on to say:

The essential feature of Borderline Personality Disorder is a pervasive pattern of instability of interpersonal relationships, self-image, and affects, and marked impulsivity that begins by early adulthood and is present in a variety of contexts.

Individuals with Borderline Personality Disorder make frantic efforts to avoid real or imagined abandonment (Criterion 1). The perception of impending separation or rejection, or the loss of external structure, can lead to profound changes in self-image, affect, cognition, and behavior. These individuals are very sensitive to environmental circumstances. They experience intense abandonment fears and inappropriate anger even when faced with a realistic time-limited separation or when there are unavoidable changes in plans (e.g. sudden despair in reaction to a clinician�s announcing the end of the hour; panic of fury when someone important to them is just a few minutes late or must cancel an appointment). They may believe that this "abandonment" implies they are "bad." These abandonment fears are related to an intolerance of being alone and a need to have other people with them. Their frantic efforts to avoid abandonment may include impulsive actions such as self-mutilating or suicidal behaviors, which are described separately in Criterion 5.

All of it found here (and all over the web)
http://www.borderlinepersonalitytoday.com/main/dsmiv.htm


Last edited by geroldmodel; 12/11/12 02:06 PM.
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And my wife never mutilated herself or threatened suicide.
After listening to Dr Harley, I really think the "electric fence" describes her, except for the mystery illnesses and depression. I don't know if she was depressed but she would sleep on the couch all day.
And the food issues. But Melody actively follows the program and she said she has all of these issues so maybe my wife could.

Somehow she would have to get over the fears she has.

I really don't know.

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Originally Posted by geroldmodel
BPD = Borderline Personality Disorder as desribed by the
Official American Diagnostic and Statistical Manual of Mental Disorders
Is this what you mean by BPD, Jedi?


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That said: none of us on the internet can diagnose, neither can you Jedi.

Your SIL who is a psychologist & knows this person probably better than anyone on this planet. She says TO YOU her sister has been suffering from BPD...

Dr. H cannot make that diagnosis, he has never seen or spoken to your wife. But he says "Keep her away from you and your children!"
Which is exactly THE SAME what you should do if your X was diagnosed with BPD

It is up to you to verify if your SIL might be correct.
You have lived with this women for a huge part of your life, you know her too to some extend.

There is no such thing as having "enough" information if your childrens future is at stake.

You do not like to be confronted with cheaters on a forum who get a hug. I understand. I would not like to be in that situation either right now.
BUT
You are not on that forum TO HELP other people!
You are there to EDUCATE yourself, remember?

Safe the help for MB.
You are doing a good job here.

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