Followin that logic then I should have been in love with my W who was meeting some of my need for SF because once or twice every 3 months we�d be intimate all the while doing quite well at meeting all of my other important ENs. For me it actually made things worse. I knew the potential for getting my needs met the way I wanted was there and instead I was being asked to live on scraps. I can remember telling her countless times if my #1 EN could be met in a satisfying way I would move heaven and earth for her. Because it wasn�t being met other things about her that bothered me rose to the surface. Suddenly those little LBs that didn�t bother me started to become extremely annoying.

So if NYC�s W is much like me where my #1 EN is really the most important thing and other things are just window dressing then it�s possible she�ll never get that spark until that #1 EN is met in a way that feels satisfying to her.

It�s quite possible this need for FS she has is the last little bit that is going to bring her balance into the black. It�s like Dr. Harley explains and it�s like Markos has said has happened for him and how it appears it has happened for me as well� the bank balance is close but there�s just one more key ingredient that needs to be added or one key LB that needs to be removed in order to put it over the top.

NYC. I suspect there is more going on here seeing your W has made the comment that you two aren�t buddies. This is a red flag that there may be more to your situation than just the lack of FS being met. Something that you�re not aware of. I�d be looking closely for any LB that you may be committing. That is hard to do. I�ve been here for a lot of years and thought I was doing well � only to find out I really wasn�t. How Radically Honest do you think your W is with you?

A) She refuses to consider removing the TV from the bedroom.
B) I remained fairly calm throughout. She did the yelling, disrespect, and judgements.
C) After a string of her insults, I left so I wouldnt respond angrily.

After our discussion, i walked around the block, she took a shower. When she came to bed, we talked nicely for an hour. I told her how much I enjoyed talking with her at night.

I really dont think she would post here, and I'm sure she would be upset that I do. She was upset that I arranged one session with Jen Harley(?) (Which I thought went well.) She would then demand POJA that I stop.

Yes, we usually only reach POJA when she gets what she wants. TV, Budget, kids swim team fees, dates. :-(

I dont think she's honest with me, and I think last night, she may have realized she isn't being honest with herself. While she thinks "we have a good marriage, what are you worried about?" she realizes (I dearly hope) that her angry outbursts, demands and ind behavior create huge stress on me. Whenever she comes home, she starts yelling if the house isnt spotless. I suggested that instead of showing any welcome or love to her husband and kids, home and family, she starts right in with an Angry Outbust.... every time. It doesnt really matter if I vacumm, do dishes and clean the table if one thing is eskew, she's fussing with it.

So, yes after ten-twelve years of this, I'm moody and completely stressed out. Now I'm on antidepressants so I am much more 'adult'. We went out this past weekend and had a great time. But nothing the least romantic after/since.

So I met with a shrink today, his focus is more career oriented, but seems to understand the big picture too. I went through my 'mess' and I liked how he repainted for me in his words. So from that, he thinks I'm fixable, and not so crazy afterall. I have talked with several, and didnt really get a comfort level with them. He's expensive, but agreed to be free if i lose my job. I have two appts booked in January.

I drew a little mental map of all this stuff last night. Its more clear to me, and what I need to focus on. He came to the same conclusion, and then wrapped it all together in a way I didnt see. I really hope this helps, it would be worth it in many ways.

"Lovebuster alert! You take a deep breath and tell her how you feel, gently and calmly. You don't sulk, that is a child's behaviour and you are now an adult. "

( I dont know how to make those nice quote boxes you used.)

I have told her how I feel for 3 years now. We have the same issues. We cant get POJA with them. The TV in the bedroom, the budget, savings, dates, sex, the house etc.

I'm definately not perfect either, and am learning to stop the lovebusters, but she is not on board. (selling to program)

A call about Your spouse should be your favorite RC.

Radio clip about Your Spouse Being Your Favorite RC

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I know it. Her favorite thing is to go dancing/drinking with her girlfriends, but she wont go with me, "so stop asking and forget about it."

Ouch. That stings a little.

RC: We ran together almost all summer to get ready for a marathon at the end of October. In the end we didnt go because of Hurricane Sandy. So the five of us were together for two weeks straight, "camping out" at home, without power. Compared to neighbors and peiple in our town with house and car damage and injuries, we did great. She was POed that we didnt have our own generator, and had to plug into our neighbors. I rewired the furnace to an extension cord, we had hot water and fridge running. Not good enough I guess.

Drinking and dancing with her friends are weak boundaries.

Why don't you go with her?

Not allowed, girls only. So over the summer she stopped going, now resents that "I'm keeping her from her friends."

In the early summer the four of them went to Atlantic City over night to go drink/dance.
She lost a gold necklace I gave her, AND my grandmothers diamond necklace. I've been trying to get her to go to AC with me, but she refuses. THAT is so messed up, I cant stand it.

She resents going on a date, costs too much money, cant afford a sitter, but will drop everything (me included) to go with them "to blow off steam."
Cant win fer tryin.

Nope you have not yet got the POJA right, it does not work like that. Read up on successful POJAing on the website and to help you along, let's try an example:

Start by negotiating the negotiation:

You: There is something I would like to talk to you about, can you give me a time when you might be able to give me your undivided for 30 minutes?

MrsNYC: After dinner would be good

So now on to the negotiation. During the first part you simply state the problem and listen carefully to her response.

You: I would like to negotiate the removal of the bedroom television because (you are selling this idea so put something in here that will be attractive to her like that it would give you more time with her)

MrsNYC: I like the bedroom television because I can watch movies when the children want to see xyz

The second part of the negotiation is where you try to brainstorm solutions that work for both of you

You: What about restricting the children's viewing of xyz to Saturday afternoons after sport

MrsNYC: What about agreeing that the bedroom tv goes off at 9pm

and so you keep going until you find something you are both enthusiastic about. The default position is no change which might seem a little rough until you think about how things might have worked if you had POJAed the install of the television in the first place (which you absolutely should have done).

Keep all negotiations safe meaning no angry outbursts or sulking. Be completely honest so don't suggest something that you do not intend to commit to and do not agree to something you are not 100% enthusiastic about.

Sure you can win ... you just have to make attempts to work a win/win and quit sacrificing.

In the meantime you should tell your W she should be able to go out with friends. At least until you two come up with a win/win. Holy crap man � now she thinks she�s sacrificing just to appease you � she shouldn�t be sacrificing either.

Quit allowing her to dictate every aspect of your R. Start negotiating ... but read how to do it properly. You have to do it the right way or you're just going to make things worse.

I suggest you make a timeline.
Plan A as long as you can.
Absolutely self sacrifice without complaining and of she doesn't come on board then separate.
How long can you do that?

Interesting thought, and not the first time suggested. I feel like I should, but its hard to say "I need your help with x" when I am out of work and cant provide $y, FS, her highest EN. Or afford Plan B. Ironically, when I am job hunting and interviewing is when I need her moral support most, and get the least. But I would say 2 months after I get the next job. If she cant be grateful and excited after those first paychecks, then plan B it is.

I will make it clear however, that I am doing my part to meet her needs and would really appreciate her to address LB, IB, UA, and SF. I will meet her needs by a) being happier, nicer, and more fun to be around, B) taking a class to get access to more jobs, and C) getting professional career and personality development, D) a lifetime supply of happy pills.

Is that a plan?

I don't agree with this MrA! Married couples should never go out separately in the evenings to socialise. Makes no difference whether the group is just girls or mixed. These two should POJA the socialising so that it is done together with the default being to stay at home.

The rules of POJA say nothing changes until you've reached POJA. She's staying home because of his complaints ... not because she wants to. So unless there was mutual agreement that she always stay home and never have time alone with friends then isn�t she allowed to continue?

Having a reluctant spouse does that change the rules of POJA? Knowing she isn't actively participating in the MB program maybe all the rules surrounding POJA don't apply to him?

I�m going to go reread the POJA material I have and see if it says anything that�s specific to NYC�s situation.

As far as married couples never going out alone � I don�t agree with that. My W has ladies� nights every once in awhile. It�s a perfect opportunity to establish and maintain friendships. First and foremost her and I need our own UA time first, our R is the priority, but when that�s being met I encourage her to have friends and activities that make her happy. The kids and I do things she doesn�t care to do during these times. It gives me a great opportunity to be with them. The question is what is being done during the socializing. Is the activity and are the people Friends of the marriage?

Have you read all the letters in this?

Having Trouble with POJA #1

I hope NYC is ok with us discussing this on his thread! I feel that in general separate socialising is wrong but I can see that you and MrsA have found a way to do this that is comfortable for both of you, well done.

Does a reluctant spouse change the rules of POJA? Well yes and no. I can tell you that I was in extreme withdrawal when Jennifer introduced us to our first negotiation. I was happy to give it a try because I had nothing to lose (he wanted to buy a rental property in another country that I would have had to manage). Both of us knew that the outcome was going to be no purchase but it would have allowed him to demonstrate a genuine desire to change the dynamic of the relationship - he had a history of buying properties in secret, forging my signature etc.

He went ahead with the property search after the POJA and so failed to show a desire to be honest and that was the last straw end of the marriage. Personally I think that the POJA is absolutely the best way to see if the attempt to recover the marriage is genuine. My XH was a world class gaslighter.

So maybe NYC can use this to show a change in his behaviour that might capture her interest. I see lots of independent behaviour from him, not just from her. She might really like it.

It isnt that I am envious or jealous that she has fun with her friends, I'm upset that she wont have fun, go on dates, or take a weekend away with me. I have told her the same. My only issue with her going to AC is that she has refused my suggestion that we 'get away' for a weekend countless times. AC is a popular date night destination. She "doesnt want to spend the money" to go with me, but the phone rings, and she's out the door. (There were pics of them, so I know she wasnt cheating.)

Another way I look at it is this: she allows herself to spend on her RE but I'm not to spend on OUR RE.

Q) How are we supposed to spend 15 hrs together with undivided attention, if we're always with the kids or other people? A) we are not. How am I to win her heart when I feel she has shut me out of the fun (room) recreational part of her life?

Again, I think it comes down to IB, and keeping up with the Jones', and my job changes.