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MelodyLane #2701038 01/22/13 09:11 PM
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I've always thought of God's love being like a parent. He loves you always but he will discipline you when you've behaved badly. I don't call that unconditional. But... -shrug-


One year becomes two, two years becomes five, five becomes ten and before you know it, you've wasted your whole life on a problem you can't solve. That's one way to spend your life. -rwinger

I will not spend my life this way.
karmasrose #2701040 01/22/13 09:17 PM
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Originally Posted by karmasrose
I've always thought of God's love being like a parent. He loves you always but he will discipline you when you've behaved badly. I don't call that unconditional. But... -shrug-

Yes. God shows us His love towards King David.
God love David and elected him to be king of Israel. Yet when David commited adultery God punished him

MelodyLane #2701041 01/22/13 09:21 PM
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Originally Posted by MelodyLane
Originally Posted by Jedi_Knight
The fact is that Gods love is unconditional.

Complete nonsense. That is a false teaching.

What good deeds have you done to earn your salvation?

karmasrose #2701045 01/22/13 09:32 PM
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Dr Harley does an excellent job of making his case that God does not offer unconditional love in the article I posted above:

Originally Posted by Dr Bill Harley
Let me answer your letter in two parts: The first part deals with your point that Christ died for us while we were sinners, and the second deals with God being irresistible. Why aren�t they irrefutable evidence that God has unconditional love for us?

The definition of God�s love (agape) is important to understand, because it helps us get to know Him better, and also helps us understand how it should be applied in marriage. It�s true that God�s love gives us an opportunity to be in a relationship with him through our faith in Jesus Christ. His extending hand comes without preconditions. �It does not, therefore, depend on man�s desire or effort, but on God�s mercy� (Romans 9:16). But his offer requires a response, and without that response, the relationship cannot be consummated. The response is our belief in Jesus Christ as our Lord and Savior. It�s God�s condition for being in a relationship with Him.

There are some who believe that God will eventually save us all. His unconditional love, they say, is so great that even after death we will all be given 2nd, 3rd, and many more chances to redeem ourselves until we all arrive in heaven. But if that�s true, the message of salvation as revealed in Scripture is seriously flawed. According to the sermons of Jesus, and the theology of Paul and others, there will be no second chances. According to these witnesses, God�s invitation comes with no preconditions (unconditional), but our relationship with Him and our salvation is conditional on our faith in Jesus Christ in this lifetime.

And Jedi, the poster asked this question, so your answer was out of context applied to St Peter:

Quote
I am a Christian but why is that sacrifice is something to be embraced in a Christian marriage to some (or many)? Where the idea of sacrifice in marriage comes from?

Paul is not married.


"It is not the critic who counts; not the man who points out how the strong man stumbles, or where the doer of deeds could have done them better. The credit belongs to the man who is actually in the arena.." Theodore Roosevelt

Exposure 101


Jedi_Knight #2701048 01/22/13 09:36 PM
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Originally Posted by Jedi_Knight
Originally Posted by MelodyLane
Originally Posted by Jedi_Knight
The fact is that Gods love is unconditional.

Complete nonsense. That is a false teaching.

What good deeds have you done to earn your salvation?


That if thou shalt confess with thy mouth the Lord Jesus, and shalt believe in thine heart that God hath raised him from the dead, thou shalt be saved. Romans 10:9

See? It is not unconditional.



"It is not the critic who counts; not the man who points out how the strong man stumbles, or where the doer of deeds could have done them better. The credit belongs to the man who is actually in the arena.." Theodore Roosevelt

Exposure 101


MelodyLane #2701050 01/22/13 09:41 PM
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Yes I understand.
However the bible also says that "There is none that seekers after me, no not one"
Mankind CANNOT confess Jesus as Savior until they are drawn to do so by the Father.
If salvation was conditional upon an act of confession or profession of faith then millions of children, babies, retarded persons and those who did not hear of the Gospel message would be unable to perform this work.

We are saved by grace, not of works.

Jedi_Knight #2701052 01/22/13 09:44 PM
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We mentioned Saint Paul. Paul did not perform an act to be saved.
God elected him to salvation and explained this to him on the road to Damascas. Paul's work of killing Christians did not earn him salvation

Jedi_Knight #2701056 01/22/13 09:56 PM
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Originally Posted by Jedi_Knight
If salvation was conditional upon an act of confession or profession of faith then millions of children, babies, retarded persons and those who did not hear of the Gospel message would be unable to perform this work.

So Romans 10:9 is wrong? I believe you must have missed the book of Revelations.


"It is not the critic who counts; not the man who points out how the strong man stumbles, or where the doer of deeds could have done them better. The credit belongs to the man who is actually in the arena.." Theodore Roosevelt

Exposure 101


Jedi_Knight #2701057 01/22/13 09:58 PM
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Originally Posted by Jedi_Knight
We mentioned Saint Paul. Paul did not perform an act to be saved.
God elected him to salvation and explained this to him on the road to Damascas. Paul's work of killing Christians did not earn him salvation

And Paul accepted God's salvation, so it was not "unconditional." God does not force anyone to accept him against their will.


"It is not the critic who counts; not the man who points out how the strong man stumbles, or where the doer of deeds could have done them better. The credit belongs to the man who is actually in the arena.." Theodore Roosevelt

Exposure 101


MelodyLane #2701068 01/22/13 10:33 PM
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Paul had no choice.
He was elected to salvation before the foundations of the earth were formed.

Until the Word of God is applied to our lives we are spiritually dead, like Saul. He was a learned man but spiritually dead and blind.
God illustrates this with Lazarus.
Lazarus was a rotting corpse and Christ commanded him (as Lazarus layed in his tomb); Lazarus come forth.
Lazarus obeyed the Lord and arose. There was NOTHING that Lazarus could have done on his own. He was DEAD.

Christ also shows us this example in the life of Jonah. Jonah had NO CHOICE but to obey God.

The book of Revelations explains that long before the foundations of the world were made God elected individuals to salvation and placed their names in a book of life.

If salvation was dependent upon OUR choices we would always fail, like Adam and Eve did

It is only by the grace of God we are saved

Jedi_Knight #2701077 01/22/13 10:45 PM
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Yes, Paul had a choice. If everyone was "chosen" and no one can choose, then Jesus died in vain and God is a cosmic puppeteer. That is a false teaching. And if salvation is unconditional then that means everyone goes to heaven, which is clearly wrong.

Romans 1:18 For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men, who suppress the truth in unrighteousness, 19 because what may be known of God is manifest in them, for God has shown it to them. 20 For since the creation of the world His invisible attributes are clearly seen, being understood by the things that are made, even His eternal power and Godhead, so that they are without excuse, 21 because, although they knew God, they did not glorify Him as God, nor were thankful, but became futile in their thoughts, and their foolish hearts were darkened.



"It is not the critic who counts; not the man who points out how the strong man stumbles, or where the doer of deeds could have done them better. The credit belongs to the man who is actually in the arena.." Theodore Roosevelt

Exposure 101


MelodyLane #2701079 01/22/13 10:53 PM
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Well I suppose you are fortunate enough to be able to commit the good deed of professing Christ and thereby earning your salvation.

I trust you are thankful that you are not mute or retarded or died as a child.

Jedi_Knight #2701080 01/22/13 10:57 PM
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Originally Posted by Jedi_Knight
Well I suppose you are fortunate enough to be able to commit the good deed of professing Christ and thereby earning your salvation.

I didn't say I earned it.

Quote
I trust you are thankful that you are not mute or retarded or died as a child.

Yes, I am, thank you. smile



"It is not the critic who counts; not the man who points out how the strong man stumbles, or where the doer of deeds could have done them better. The credit belongs to the man who is actually in the arena.." Theodore Roosevelt

Exposure 101


Jedi_Knight #2701081 01/22/13 11:00 PM
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This is an old debate.
Augustine and Calvin taught that we cannot earn salvation.
The orthodox and catholic explain we earn it through obedience to the sacraments and the Protesants teach that we say a sinners prayer and are saved.

But as for the original question. Yes Christians do sacrifice as in the case of my grandmother. Many do especially older ones.
We live in a golden age now so sacrifice can be largely avoided in America.

Jedi_Knight #2701087 01/22/13 11:19 PM
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Originally Posted by Jedi_Knight
But as for the original question. Yes Christians do sacrifice as in the case of my grandmother. Many do especially older ones.
We live in a golden age now so sacrifice can be largely avoided in America.

I think we all know that some Christians do practice sacrifice in their marriages. Something which is to be avoided except in certain circumstances. Such as taking care of a sick spouse who cannot reciprocate. That is not a situation that creates resentment, typically, because it is understood the sick spouse cannot reciprocate. It is when the spouse CAN reciprocate that resentment ensues.

I found an old post that Dr Harley wrote to a pastor on this board who was recommending sacrifice:

Originally Posted by Dr Bill Harley
Uh, where do I begin. I can't tell you how many couples I've counseled where one spouse did just what you suggested -- sacrifice their own enjoyment for the pleasure of their spouse. The reason I'm counseling them, of course, is that the one doing the sacrificing eventually can't take giving without receiving anymore, and wants a divorce. One recent cases that comes to mind is a pastor's wife. He gave your message to his wife throughout their marriage. They have reconciled, but only because he finally understands the concept of mutual care. Unless both he and his wife enjoy their sexual experience, she comes to hate it. Now they make love almost every day, not out of sacrifice, but out of mutual enthusiastic agreement. By the way, they've given up OS.

It's dangerous stuff you're recommending. It ruins marriages.

Best wishes,
Dr. Harley


"It is not the critic who counts; not the man who points out how the strong man stumbles, or where the doer of deeds could have done them better. The credit belongs to the man who is actually in the arena.." Theodore Roosevelt

Exposure 101


MelodyLane #2701092 01/22/13 11:30 PM
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What did the original pastor post that Harley responded to?

Jedi_Knight #2701097 01/22/13 11:35 PM
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A woman was complaining that her husband insisted on giving him oral sex. A new member, a pastor, advised her that she should do whatever her husband wanted regardless of her feelings. Dr Harley saw his post and responded.


"It is not the critic who counts; not the man who points out how the strong man stumbles, or where the doer of deeds could have done them better. The credit belongs to the man who is actually in the arena.." Theodore Roosevelt

Exposure 101


MelodyLane #2701099 01/22/13 11:38 PM
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Well that pastor was incorrect obviously.
MB POJA aside, oral sex does not lead to procreation.
That's like anal sex or other acts called "sex" that really aren't sex

And he most likely wasn't a priest in the Catholic or Orthodox churches because the Catechism is very clear on that matter.

There are so many Protestant denominations with many self educated and authorized pastors that teach varying doctrines. That's crazy to tell someone to have oral sex against their will. (when Harley mentioned "os" I thought he was referring to opposite sex friendships )

Last edited by Jedi_Knight; 01/22/13 11:42 PM.
KeepLearning #2701108 01/23/13 03:19 AM
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very interesting comments there.

it throws more light on the subject. i think i get it clearer than before

thanks you all

if i may ask, especially to those of you who have been married for sometime now, how real is this?

have you had experiences about sacrificing and the outcome?
was is that bad or quite manageable. it would be okay to hear some examples (real life) from this principle.

i think if i sacrifice in a way for my GF, she appreciates it and it makes her love me more. it also makes me feel more responsible for her.

there are times i think she also sacrifice for me, but i dont know whether she keeps score of it or not. but i also at some point expects her to sacrifice.
is it because i sacrifice that is why i demand it (though subtly) sometimes?
i donk know...

KIKIMAN #2701109 01/23/13 03:23 AM
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one of the posts mentioned that, it is good (sacrifice) but poisonous in marriage

so it is okay to sacrifice for non-marrital relationships?

wont the same principle of making demands show up in such situations? or can it be different in such cases?

like with my friends, can i be sacrificing some or most of the times and would that detrimentally affect the freinship?

okay, just a quick clarification, what about the principle of give and it shall be given unto you, good measure...

or that is on a different line, how can one explain that and draw the lines here?

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