It sounds like you've found that dark place that I found myself in last year. It is a horrible place to be and I completely understand and empathize. When I realized I no longer wanted her to fill my #1 EN I knew something had to give, something had to be done.

It was then that I laid it all out there for her. I told her I had lost the love I had for her and that I really was scared where we were going to go from there. I wanted to remain married as did she but I think she had finally had enough of my withdrawal (pseudo in-home Plan B although not an intentional Plan B) and was losing her love for me. It was then that she took me up on my offer of getting an MB counselor involved.

My sich is different from yours in that my W never has an AO. She�s more passive aggressive, docile. End result is still the same though. I felt unloved, disrespected and used.

I concur with Living_Well. You can�t keep going like this. It is going in the wrong direction or just as bad staying the same.

Wow. Both of you saying this kind of ruins my day. Cant disagree.

I will talk with her again tonight. I'll try to smooth over the tv issue, (woke up feeling great today! It was... weird.) Then I'll ask about her questions on MB, her reluctance towards me. And talking with MB Jennifer again. I'm sure she'll put it on me, and my lack of job security, and being more assertive. I think that is the fundamental problem, which I'm working on.

Or I should just try to get her agreement to talk with MB again. I feel like she won't be interested in anything I suggest.

I think I would try the counseling as Mr. Alias is finding it effective.

I don't think I would smooth over the tv issue. I wouldn't smooth over anything. I had complained and talked to my husband, but he kind of shrugged it off at first. It wasn't until I went on the radio show and then wrote him a letter spelling out how badly I felt and how lonely. In some ways I feel bad because the letter hurt him very much. He was mad, really sad and really scared. Somehow my letter gave him the impression I didn't love him anymore ( which may actually be the truth for you) and I wanted him to leave. ( Neither of which I said.) No, but I was unhappy and he needed to know.

I don't know how you need to do it: a letter, a conversation..etc But somehow you need to let her know how serious and how badly you feel. Something has to be done..

My husband has done a 180 degree turnaround but we were both not inthe state of withdrawal that you are. That is why I think you need to do counseling.. Go by yourself. I think I've read that Jennifer is good at motivating wives that arent interested in the program..

This is a tough one. If you've got a reluctant spouse and she's still reluctant even after having seen Dr. J. then I suspect she may be one of those tough ones to break/bend.

Remind me again how many times each of you spoke with Jennifer?

I won't lie to you my W still isn't fully on board with the work that is required in following the MB plan. I have to be the catalyst and many times she simply just doesn�t respond. I am diligent in doing my part in what we learned. Why just today I had to ask her how she was feeling as I�ve sort of felt us drifting apart. Our UA time this last week or so has been horrible. She�s ignored my request to sit down and find some RC things to do together. I asked her today why? Up to this point she�s meeting my needs and I have that feeling that we both want this M to be a loving, happy one so I�m not freaked out yet.

My point being even though she�s done the counseling the amount she participates isn�t anywhere near what I�d hoped it to be. She�s been willing to meet my needs and I�ve been doing what she asked of me so far. But as far as the counseling I feel she did it to more or less to appease me and that she doesn�t buy in 100% with everything she�s been instructed/asked to do. She�s a tough nut to crack.

I suspect your W may be too.

I haven't read your whole thread, but the thing that really stands out to me is that your wife is not in love with you. As such, she is too emotionally withdrawn to have sex with you.


Well, that is an impossible goal because there is no such thing as an activity that will make you "feel romantic" when you are not emotionally attached. Your wife is not in love. The goal of undivided attention time is to meet the 4 intimate emotional needs for 20+ hours per week and after several weeks of consistent UA time, she begins to have romantic feelings.

I see your greatest problem as the lack of romantic love in your marriage. That lack of romantic love has killed her desire to have sex with you. And your pressure on her has created an aversion.

Counseling with your average traditional counselor will not help you with that one bit. It would be a TRAGEDY to have one bullet to your name and to waste it on a "counselor" who has utterly no idea how to save a marriage. A marriage counselor cannot help you restore romantic love to your marriage. The Harleys are completely different in that they know how to turn a marriage around. Can you swing counseling with the Harleys? They might be able to bring her on board.

Hi Melody, Yes, I think it is a good idea.

She will say it is a waste of time and money because I cant provide financial stability. My question is how much money does she need and how long do I have to be employed before she will come out of withdrawal? Its been like this for ten years!

Another question is this: if she is averse to sex, how do we meet the 4 needs on our UA time. Seems like a catch-22 thing. She turns down most dates I offer. Coffee, beer and apps, comedy club, or going to a club to dance. Some evenings we sit and watch TV, but there is no interaction, so I dont really consider it. When I emailed Dr H, he said just go to plan B. (6/2011)

So, yes, I think we need a Dr Chambers intervention.

What is it that keeps you from going to Plan B as advised?

I dont think it will work:

She'll say I walked away, abandoned her with 3 kids.

She's a capable, independant girl, she wont want me back.

She doesnt care to fix it now, she care less if I do B.

She hasnt bought into MB

It would be hugely expensive. More than the counseling program.

It will be hard on the kids. If it works, a good example. If not, a disaster.

Well, that is why you need someone to sell her on the idea. I would make the appointment for yourself FIRST and have Steve or his sister, Dr Chalmers, tell you how to get her on the phone with them. Once you get her on the phone they can sell her on the idea. She stands to benefit the most, but it has to be sold to her.


Ok, then why haven't you?

I guess I don't understand your question above. Catch-22? How so? Obviously if you can't meet the EN of sexual fulfillment now, you meet the others.

I would call and get a counseling appointment with the Harley's and give them a chance to motivate her. If that doesn't work, I would plan to separate.

In Plan B you would give her a list of conditions to meet and if she doesn't meet those conditions after 2 years, then you would consider the marriage over. And if she doesn't meet your conditions you don't have a marriage anyway.


Do you want to pay more for something that actually works or do you want to pay a little for something that doesn't work?


It will work, because the purpose is to remove yourself from a bad marriage. If your wife won't change, then divorce would be the definition of success. And if she does meet your conditions, you will end up with a great marriage. So you win either way. And yes, it will be hard on your kids. But it is also hard on them to watch their dad being beat down little by little.

As for abandoning the kids I would NOT leave them.
If you are going to leave then file for divorce and shared custody.

I've read your thread for months and I sympathize with you. I was in a sexless marriage. It became normal for me. I thought it was normal.

Like Yourself I am also a distance runner but after divorce I've had to cut back to 6 mile runs (custody of kids causes lifestyle changes).

Here are your choices:
1. plan B with legal divorce filings.
2. Plan B without legal divorce filings.
3. File for divorce while in house and continue plan a
4. Continue plan A indefinitely or on set timeline
5. Remain in sexless marriage until children are grown.

Your wife Is healthy so what is the reason for no sex drive? She does not care about her marriage

To speed things up for some posters:

Mr and Mrs Runner have already had some counseling sessions with Dr. Chalmers. Isn't that correct Runner? If so, how many, how long?

I'm certain Dr. Harley suggested Plan B because Mrs. Runner doesn't want to participate in the concepts of MB (for whatever reason).

Retracting this post.

Hi NYC_Runner, I've only read your thread for a couple days, and like Jedi, I too sympathize with you. I was in a similar situation: sexless, loveless marriage. Of the options Jedi proposes, I chose #5. I didn't know about MB at the time however, and if presented with the option of Plan B, I probably would've had the same reaction you do: it won't work because she'll say I abandoned the family.

Now that I know a little about MB and Plan B, I agree with Melody in that it opens the door to improve your situation, one way or the other. Your concern is what will happen if you follow Plan B, and you end up getting divorced. Because of your wife's apparent lack of motivation to fix your marriage, if you don't follow Plan B, you'll be stuck in a loveless marriage. No one can be expected to live in a loveless marriage, not even you. I believe Dr. Harley has said that if you try to live in a loveless marriage, both you and your wife will run an increasing risk of having an affair.

If you can't turn your wife around, I think it's better to divorce than run the risk of an affair.

Comments on your reasons for Plan B not working:

• She'll say I walked away, abandoned her with 3 kids. That's probably true, she'll want to blame you and not take any responsibility. And you will probably feel guilt for breaking up the family. But this won't be true because it will be her that broke up the family by not trying to fix your marriage.
• She's a capable, independant girl, she wont want me back. If she doesn't want you, all the more reason to let it go.
• She doesnt care to fix it now, she care less if I do B. Lack of care is another reason to let it go.
• She hasnt bought into MB. How much more time are you willing to give her to try MB?
• It would be hugely expensive. More than the counseling program. Yep, much more expensive. But the end result would be worth it. A friend once told me the hurdle of divorce is similar to the hurdle of moving. The thought of packing up your belongings, moving them, unpacking them in a new house, can be daunting. But once it's done and you're settled in the new house, you'll feel that the effort was worth it. Still, it's hard to mentally resolve yourself to start the process because of the effort it will take.
• It will be hard on the kids. If it works, a good example. If not, a disaster. If it doesn't work, it will definitely be hard on your children. Some argue that it's better to go through with a divorce so that your kids will learn by example that they don't need to stay in a loveless marriage in the future if they ever find themselves in that situation. Others argue that it's better for the kids' mental health to avoid divorce until they're old enough to be on their own. In my situation, I was kind of selfish in that I couldn't stand the thought of not living with my kids, so I stayed until they were grown. I don't know if that was the best decision, but it's the one I made.

Good luck to you. You're in a tough spot, but if you keep churning over options, eventually you'll figure out what's right for you.

I've read your thread, but I can't find an account of your coaching session(s) with Dr Chalmers. Can you please tell us how many you had and when, whether both of you participated, what was recommended and how your wife responded to those recommendations? Thanks.

Thanks, I was not aware that they had counseled with Dr Chalmers. NYC, have you read When to Call it Quits in the newsletter section? What did you think of Dr H's solution there?

Could you print your email and response here for us? (The whole thing, please; not a paraphrase.) If Dr Harley gave you specific advice, I'd like to know that we are not advising anything here that contradicts what he said.

This might be because NYC never told us when it happened or what was said. He slipped in the information in a way that makes it easy to miss. I think the coaching session, and Dr Harley's email to him, are highly significant pieces of advice and we need to know about them if we are to help.

Details please, NYC.

Sorry, its been a busy day today.

We had one session with Dr Chamlers, about a year ago. She told us to complete the questionnaires, which we did. Gave me advice on defusing arguments, avoiding AO. DW would tend to corner me and want to argue, and I would reach a point where the discussion was irrational and pointless, and want to quit the argument and walk away. DW would demand I stay, and I would eventually lose my temper. She said I was right to walk away to protect DW from an AO. I dont know what she told DW, while they talked.

I emailed a ? to the radio show. They used my name on the show, so I've been reluctant to share. I'll have to track it down and msg it to each of you.

be back later w that

R